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View Full Version : Cool "sled" device for a 1911. Will help with getting around Roster


CHS
03-30-2010, 5:10 PM
Found this at the OC gunshow this weekend. This would be a perfect single-shot sled device for helping you import an off-roster 1911 on the cheap.

And it even doubles as a bushing wrench!

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m446/bdsmchs/sled.jpg

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m446/bdsmchs/2010-03-29164002.jpg

oaklander
03-30-2010, 5:14 PM
I could be wrong, but I thought that the "single shot" roster exemption only applied to LARGE pistols:

# 12133. [snip]

(b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

That's why you are seeing a lot of AK and AR pistols, etc. . .

n2k
03-30-2010, 5:17 PM
Can you use this type of item to create a single shot for any off roster pistol?

They are local:
http://www.beckhamdesign.com/khxc/index.php

hybridatsun350
03-30-2010, 5:21 PM
The single-shot exemption definitely has a size requirement. This is only one piece of the puzzle.

leelaw
03-30-2010, 5:21 PM
It might need a modified magazine catch; as for the length requirements, some extra long barrel could probably make the measure, or a combination long barrel plus mainspring housing with some protrusion out the rear. The MSH, sled, magazine catch, and barrel could be passed along to others looking to import their off-roster 1911 variants.

Synergy
03-30-2010, 5:23 PM
I believe a member here was working with Bob Serva from Fusion Firearms to create a barrel to meet the minimum length and then could be changed back to 5" or 6" longslide.

CHS
03-30-2010, 5:25 PM
I could be wrong, but I thought that the "single shot" roster exemption only applied to LARGE pistols:

# 12133. [snip]

(b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

That's why you are seeing a lot of AK and AR pistols, etc. . .


Yup. A standard full-size 1911 only needs a 7" barrel added to bring it to 10.5" OAL and 6" barrel minimum.

This device takes care of 1 part of the equation and is generally going to be cheaper than modifying a magazine into a single-shot sled. I paid a whopping 8$ at the gun show for it :)

You would also need a magazine catch that has the button removed. You can get one from brownells for about $20 and just take the button to a grinder.

Sarco has 7" barrels for about $70 last I checked. They're $54.95 according to the current ad.

CHS
03-30-2010, 5:32 PM
I believe a member here was working with Bob Serva from Fusion Firearms to create a barrel to meet the minimum length and then could be changed back to 5" or 6" longslide.

A standard full-size 5" 1911 with a beavertail is 8.75" OAL.

A 7" barrel would bring it to 10.75" OAL.

Even without a beavertail, you should be right at the 10.5" minimum.

Sarco also has 16" barrels that could be cut-down to 8"-10" for smaller commander-sized 1911's. These barrels are so cheap.

Maybe I should get the full set and start renting it out for import purposes :)

Synergy
03-30-2010, 5:35 PM
A standard full-size 5" 1911 with a beavertail is 8.75" OAL.

A 7" barrel would bring it to 10.75" OAL.

Even without a beavertail, you should be right at the 10.5" minimum.

Sarco also has 16" barrels that could be cut-down to 8"-10" for smaller commander-sized 1911's. These barrels are so cheap.

Maybe I should get the full set and start renting it out for import purposes :)

In the case of the Fusion DIY Kits, you would just need Fusion to rough in the 7" barrel, flush mag release and sled, correct? Would Riflegear do the transfer?

CHS
03-30-2010, 5:46 PM
In the case of the Fusion DIY Kits, you would just need Fusion to rough in the 7" barrel, flush mag release and sled, correct? Would Riflegear do the transfer?

Hrmm.. Not sure about that.

If it's a DIY kit, I'm assuming that it's not going to be 100% legit since it won't be a pistol capable of firing, right? It's just going to be a frame, slide, barrel all mated together.

That's one that the legal eagle types of the Calguns Foundation should comment on.

In the eyes of the ATF, I guess it would certainly be considered a pistol, because it's been taken from a frame to mostly a handgun.

But for the purposes of the roster, if it can't fire, even if it's in a pseudo-single-shot configuration, would it be ok for transfer?

I don't know.

Also, if the frame doesn't have any beavertail installed, it MIGHT not reach the 10.5" OAL. An 8" barrel might be the best option.

But if the CGF says it's ok, then yeah, Riflegear will definitely do the transfer.

oaklander
03-30-2010, 6:14 PM
I like the way you guys are thinking!!!

:43:

Mute
03-30-2010, 6:46 PM
This one caught my attention. Let's see what develops.

elSquid
03-30-2010, 11:51 PM
This device takes care of 1 part of the equation and is generally going to be cheaper than modifying a magazine into a single-shot sled. I paid a whopping 8$ at the gun show for it :)

You would also need a magazine catch that has the button removed. You can get one from brownells for about $20 and just take the button to a grinder.


What if you remove the lower grip screws and drive a pin crosswise through the frame, and through that device? As long as the pin spans the mag well and extends into the bushings, you should be GTG. Since the "mag" is now fixed, the operation of the mag catch is not relevant.

Heck, just get a couple of bolts with the same thread pitch and use them to replace the grip screws on one side of the frame. Drill corresponding holes in the device, then install it in the mag well, then screw in the bolts. Not pretty, but cheap!

Hmmn, even cheaper: remove all the grip screws. Drill out the device for holes under the bushings, run a cable tie through each hole. Zip each tie up, snip off the excess. Presto, fixed mag on the cheap.

-- Michael

ElvenSoul
03-30-2010, 11:53 PM
Importing AR Pistol Tech to 1911's Genius.

CHS
03-31-2010, 7:21 AM
Hmmn, even cheaper: remove all the grip screws. Drill out the device for holes under the bushings, run a cable tie through each hole. Zip each tie up, snip off the excess. Presto, fixed mag on the cheap.

-- Michael

Not pretty, but it could work :)

That's also more work. To replace the mag catch on a 1911 completely takes about 10 seconds. If not less.

Rust
03-31-2010, 8:27 AM
My question about that insert is will it allow a single round to be loaded under the extractor or would you need to jump the extractor over the rim of a round in the chamber should it need to be loaded? I'm just thinking of doing the safe handling demo where you need to chamber and unload the dummy round. Wouldn't want people screwing up their extractors. Also on that same line of thought how would one of those long barrels work with a slide that had been originally designed to shoot a smaller caliber? IE on a 9mm or 38 super? Are their extractors in closer to bore line so that you wouldn't be able to chamber a larger round under them at all?

El Gato
03-31-2010, 8:40 AM
My question about that insert is will it allow a single round to be loaded under the extractor or would you need to jump the extractor over the rim of a round in the chamber should it need to be loaded? I'm just thinking of doing the safe handling demo where you need to chamber and unload the dummy round. Wouldn't want people screwing up their extractors. Also on that same line of thought how would one of those long barrels work with a slide that had been originally designed to shoot a smaller caliber? IE on a 9mm or 38 super? Are their extractors in closer to bore line so that you wouldn't be able to chamber a larger round under them at all?

Would think you could lock slide to rear... insert round under estractor from the top and then close slide and fire...workable...

I really like the way the whole forum bends their collective minds to stuff like this...genius?....Nay...Super Genius!... Collective Super Genius...

overcoming the control of progressives...one gun at a time...:cool2:

Mute
03-31-2010, 9:04 AM
Jumping the round with the extractor for the few cycles needed to do the safety demonstration isn't going to kill the extractor. I wouldn't make a habit of it, but the single shot isn't the point for doing all this anyway. I'm assuming that once you've taken legal possession of your gun, you will modify as you desire.

shooting4life
03-31-2010, 9:19 AM
I have seen old 1911 parts kit that comes with the slide for about 125. You could fit the 7 inch barrel to the parts kit slide and then file the slide rails so they are super loose so it would fit on any frame. Then you just send your slide out to be put on the gun you want and you are good to go. Also the kit comes with one mag so a little eppoxy can turn that into a sled.

Mute
03-31-2010, 9:25 AM
I know there's a how-to thread already, but for this one let's see if these are the proper steps to purchasing a non-rostered 1911:

- Purchase Beckham "sled" device
- Purchase 8" 1911 barrel
- Purcahse mag release button and file until sits flush with frame and must use tool to release

Now the part that needs clarifying. After purchasing the above item, do I need to send these out to have them installed on the gun I wish to purchase before it is delivered to CA or can the transferring FFL install these item prior to DROSing?

elSquid
03-31-2010, 9:35 AM
Not pretty, but it could work :)

That's also more work. To replace the mag catch on a 1911 completely takes about 10 seconds. If not less.

Well, you need to factor in the time on the grinder, plus any time needed to verify fit and function. Plus the cost of a mag catch. :)

Another inexpensive option could be done with nothing more than the sled and a single screw.

1) remove the left grip
2) insert the sled into the mag well
3) install the screw via the frame window into the sled. Ensure that the head of the screw extends into the window, preventing the magazine from being ejected.
4) re-install the left grip

Did I mention that I'm cheap? :D

-- Michael

CHS
03-31-2010, 9:37 AM
I know there's a how-to thread already, but for this one let's see if these are the proper steps to purchasing a non-rostered 1911:

- Purchase Beckham "sled" device
- Purchase 8" 1911 barrel
- Purcahse mag release button and file until sits flush with frame and must use tool to release

Now the part that needs clarifying. After purchasing the above item, do I need to send these out to have them installed on the gun I wish to purchase before it is delivered to CA or can the transferring FFL install these item prior to DROSing?

You would send those items out as a package to the FFL that will be sending in your off-roster 1911.

He will install those to make the 1911 now roster-exempt, and then send it to your FFL in California where you will do the transfer.

After the 10-day wait and you leave the store with your new gun, you are free to re-install the original components.

jvquattro
03-31-2010, 9:45 AM
^ Nice! :43:

Mute
03-31-2010, 9:57 AM
You would send those items out as a package to the FFL that will be sending in your off-roster 1911.

He will install those to make the 1911 now roster-exempt, and then send it to your FFL in California where you will do the transfer.

After the 10-day wait and you leave the store with your new gun, you are free to re-install the original components.

In the words of Mr. Burns, "Excellent!"

CHS
03-31-2010, 10:07 AM
Another inexpensive option could be done with nothing more than the sled and a single screw.

1) remove the left grip
2) insert the sled into the mag well
3) install the screw via the frame window into the sled. Ensure that the head of the screw extends into the window, preventing the magazine from being ejected.
4) re-install the left grip


The only problem that I see with that is that a dealer out of state might be comfortable with changing out the slide/barrel and mag catch. Those are very simple on a 1911 and require virtually no tools.

For the grip screw, you'll have to do some more work that the out of state dealer might not be comfortable with.

But yeah, removing the grip panel and just sinking a screw into the sled so that it prevents the sled from being removed easily would certainly work.

You're still going to have to buy that barrel, cheapskate ;) hehe.

elSquid
03-31-2010, 10:24 AM
You're still going to have to buy that barrel, cheapskate ;) hehe.

Touché!

:D

-- Michael

smokingloon
03-31-2010, 10:40 AM
http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt40/jung918/firearms/fusion/fusion007.jpg

You can barley make it out, but I got a 7" barrel from sarco
http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt40/jung918/firearms/fusion/fusion008.jpg

http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt40/jung918/firearms/fusion/fusion014.jpg

Mute
03-31-2010, 10:52 AM
Does the gun have to be shootable, meaning, if I want a 9mm 1911, that long barrel has to be a 9mm barrel?

CHS
03-31-2010, 11:23 AM
You can barley make it out, but I got a 7" barrel from sarco


Smokingloon, can you please give some more details?

Is that a Fusion builders kit, or a complete Fusion gun? Was the Sarco a drop-in fit, or did it need to be fitted to the frame/slide?

What kind of nut/bolt did you use to fix the sled in place?

Quiet
03-31-2010, 11:58 AM
Does the gun have to be shootable, meaning, if I want a 9mm 1911, that long barrel has to be a 9mm barrel?

yes.

ke6guj
03-31-2010, 12:22 PM
Does the gun have to be shootable, meaning, if I want a 9mm 1911, that long barrel has to be a 9mm barrel?

I don't know if it has to be shootable, just that you can perform the handgun safety demo with it. And there is nothing that says that you can't change the caliber of the fiream after you DROS it.

smokingloon
03-31-2010, 12:49 PM
Smokingloon, can you please give some more details?

Is that a Fusion builders kit, or a complete Fusion gun? Was the Sarco a drop-in fit, or did it need to be fitted to the frame/slide?

What kind of nut/bolt did you use to fix the sled in place?

I originally wanted a kit so that I could assembly it myself. I thought that Fusion could just assemble all the parts without fitting anything. That way I could do all the work myself after i dros it.
I talked to a guy that works on many 1911s locally about my plan and he informed me that it was not likely for them to do this. He said that they would most likely have to do some fitting. I then decided that I would rather have them start what they finish. Little did I know they did the bare minimum.
ie. extractor wasn't even tuned.
extractor protrudes so much that it touches the barrel. Also, this doesn't allow the slide to close all the way.
thumb safety is very difficult to manipulate.
When I contacted the company, they basically told me that it was a kit gun.
If so, why did they charge me $400 for the labor? :rolleyes: Lesson learned.


The Sarco barrel was pretty much drop in. Before I sent the barrel over to Fusion, I test fitted it onto my Springfield 1911 and it fit without any modification. When I inspected the barrel after it was installed on the Fusion, I only noticed some stone marks on the barrel lug. So it looks as if it didn't take much work at all to fit the barrel. One thing I did notice is that the Sarco looks like a two piece barrel and it was joined together by brazing. I personally would not want to shoot anything out of that barrel.

I thought of several different ways to get the safety mag to stay in place.
I thought that I could drill a hole in the mag release and screw in a set screw like the prince 50 but that would require me to get another mag release.
I then looked for a grip screw that was long enough to "pinch" the safety mag in place but the threads on the 1911 grips are not very common at all.
So what I did was go to the hardware store and get a really long and fine screw, drill a hole through the safety mag, and ran it all the way through from one end of the grip bushing to the other side.

CHS
03-31-2010, 12:55 PM
I don't know if it has to be shootable, just that you can perform the handgun safety demo with it. And there is nothing that says that you can't change the caliber of the fiream after you DROS it.

Only problem is, a 9mm barrel will work just fine on a .45 slide, but a .45 barrel won't work with a 9mm slide due to the different sized breech faces.

Aftermarket .45 barrels are cheap and plentiful. 9mm, not so much.

So if you're trying to import a 9mm using a .45 barrel, you won't be able to do the safety demo because you won't be able to successfully chamber the dummy round.

Granted, an FFL is allowed to perform the safety demo with a significantly similar gun, so if they've got another 1911 in inventory it might not make a difference.

But I wouldn't count on that ahead of time if you're importing a gun that way.

CHS
03-31-2010, 1:14 PM
Only problem is, a 9mm barrel will work just fine on a .45 slide, but a .45 barrel won't work with a 9mm slide due to the different sized breech faces.

Aftermarket .45 barrels are cheap and plentiful. 9mm, not so much.


Heh, spoke too soon:

C45018 1911 Barrel 7" Roto .38
C45014 1911 Barrel 7" Roto .45
C45021 1911 Barrel 7" Roto 9mm

They are from Sarco - http://www.sarcoinc.com/cgm.html

ElvenSoul
03-31-2010, 6:19 PM
I don't know if it has to be shootable, just that you can perform the handgun safety demo with it. And there is nothing that says that you can't change the caliber of the fiream after you DROS it.

I wonder if you could get a 1911 marked "Caliber Multi"?

I just might be able to make my dream of a right and left handed pair come true now!

I found this site a few years ago and used to just dream of a pair of titanium left and right hand 1911's.

http://www.milehigharmory.com/

CHS
03-31-2010, 6:22 PM
I wonder if you could get a 1911 marked "Caliber Multi"?


I've never seen a caliber marking on a 1911 frame. I've only ever seen them marked on the barrels.

Colt-45
03-31-2010, 7:18 PM
Has anyone around here transferred a 1911 this way yet? or is this still in the new idea phase?

You guys mentioned it doesn't have to be "shootable" right? So what if I can get a welder to weld part of one 1911 barrel to another? Would that work for the barrel length part?

CHS
03-31-2010, 9:11 PM
You guys mentioned it doesn't have to be "shootable" right? So what if I can get a welder to weld part of one 1911 barrel to another? Would that work for the barrel length part?

No one said that.

Colt-45
03-31-2010, 9:13 PM
I asked in form of a question I did not imply it.

So it must be shootable. Welding two old barrels is not an option then.

Cokebottle
03-31-2010, 9:52 PM
It might need a modified magazine catch
Not a problem...
Remove the grips. Mark the magazine through the grip screw holes.
Remove magazine and drill out the 4 holes.

Obtain some longer grip screws (long enough to go into the magazine).
Yes... it's an oddball thread.

Install the sled, reinstall the grips, voila... fixed single-shot 1911.

BigRich
03-31-2010, 11:49 PM
If the top of that sled was a little lower could you just drop a round (or snap cap) onto it and close the slide? Would it feed that round under the extractor and into the chamber?

Richie Caketown
03-31-2010, 11:57 PM
so when are we doing a group buy ?

bwiese
04-01-2010, 12:11 AM
I could be wrong, but I thought that the "single shot" roster exemption only applied to LARGE pistols:
# 12133. [snip]

(b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled. That's why you are seeing a lot of AK and AR pistols, etc. . .


Correct. To do a 1911 single-shot, this device would be helpful but insufficient.

The 1911 should have the 0-round 'sled' locked in (i.e, tool required)
would certainly also need to be dimensionally compliant - 6" min barrel length and 10.5" min overall length.

I'm guessing (no 1911 at hand) you're gonna need a ~7.5" bbl or so to get to Roster-exempt status.

badfish71
04-01-2010, 12:20 AM
no offense to anyone here but reading this just made me shake my head and say F$%* these laws are stupid!!

CalNRA
04-01-2010, 12:38 AM
If the top of that sled was a little lower could you just drop a round (or snap cap) onto it and close the slide? Would it feed that round under the extractor and into the chamber?

no one ever said a functioning pistol must have an extractor...and just so happens the extractor on a 1911 is VERY easy to remove, unlike all other popular guns with external extractors. So you can just push a dummy round in, and remove the round with the slidelocked back.

And remember there is at least one rostered popular semiauto handgun on the market with no extractor at all. Can anyone identify this gun?

7.62x54R
04-01-2010, 12:45 AM
no one ever said a functioning pistol must have an extractor...and just so happens the extractor on a 1911 is VERY easy to remove, unlike all other popular guns with external extractors. So you can just push a dummy round in, and remove the round with the slidelocked back.

And remember there is at least one rostered popular semiauto handgun on the market with no extractor at all. Can anyone identify this gun?

Beretta Tomcat?

CalNRA
04-01-2010, 12:51 AM
Ah that was too easy(for those who have seen it in person).

CHS
04-01-2010, 7:06 AM
I'm guessing (no 1911 at hand) you're gonna need a ~7.5" bbl or so to get to Roster-exempt status.

A standard full-size 1911 just needs a 7" barrel to bring it to at least 10.5"

A USGI 1911 with non-beavertail is 8.5" OAL, so you only need to add 2"

A typical 1911 these days with a beavertail is 8.75" OAL, so 2" extra will more than cover the 10.5" OAL.

civilsnake
04-01-2010, 7:53 AM
So the idea is to have a non-rostered gun shipped to a middleperson, who will then install the sled/barrel, and then ship it to a local FFL? Is that all there is to it?

Synergy
04-01-2010, 8:09 AM
So the idea is to have a non-rostered gun shipped to a middleperson, who will then install the sled/barrel, and then ship it to a local FFL? Is that all there is to it?

Or send the sled, barrel to the manufacturer, such as Fusion, then Fusion would ship to your FFL here in CA.

SVRider
04-01-2010, 8:25 AM
I'd have to go back and look, but from what I recall, the grip screw bushings are drilled all the way through...

I can't remember exactly how deep the screws seat in the bushings, but I would think you could just cross-drill your "sled" and drive a pin through to sit shallow within each grip bushings. (If not, you could always cut a pair of the grip screws down a bit so it would).

Now, who has an LA area FFL willing to do the transfer? I've got parts that have been waiting for a frame for about 3 years now....

mmmmm....Damascus and elephant ivory.... :cheers2:

...just pi$$es me off that we have to go through this kind of thing....

.

wamphyri13
04-01-2010, 10:45 AM
As far as barrels go, didn't Sportsmans Guide sell those 1911 conversion kits with the 16" barrel and the MSH with a stock? They were really cheap and the barrel would ABSOLUTELY make up the size difference. Just don't install the MSH stock and make it a rifle. Voila! Longbarreled single shot with plenty of room for error. Even if it's a little more expensive, you're still going to be able to get the 1911 you want, and can be used again to get another.
Ryan

CHS
04-01-2010, 11:21 AM
As far as barrels go, didn't Sportsmans Guide sell those 1911 conversion kits with the 16" barrel and the MSH with a stock? They were really cheap and the barrel would ABSOLUTELY make up the size difference. Just don't install the MSH stock and make it a rifle. Voila! Longbarreled single shot with plenty of room for error. Even if it's a little more expensive, you're still going to be able to get the 1911 you want, and can be used again to get another.
Ryan

$68.95 for the 16" barrel from Sarco. :)

Josh3239
04-01-2010, 12:18 PM
[/I]The 1911 should have the 0-round 'sled' locked in (i.e, tool required)
would certainly also need to be dimensionally compliant - 6" min barrel length and 10.5" min overall length.

Why? Unlike the ARs and AKs the 1911 is not an AW with a regular release (especially after the single shot is removed) and as long as the sled is in the handgun it is a single shot. Unless I am mistaken there is no specific way listed by the DOJ on how a rifle or pistol becomes a single shot, as long as the firearms can only fire one round it is a single shot. Or am I missing something?

CHS
04-01-2010, 12:50 PM
Why? Unlike the ARs and AKs the 1911 is not an AW with a regular release (especially after the single shot is removed) and as long as the sled is in the handgun it is a single shot. Unless I am mistaken there is no specific way listed by the DOJ on how a rifle or pistol becomes a single shot, as long as the firearms can only fire one round it is a single shot. Or am I missing something?

If you can just pop the sled out and insert a regular magazine, it's NOT a single-shot gun.

If that was the case you could just have an empty magwell and claim that it's a single-shot gun.

The magazine should be "fixed" as defined by the DoJ so that it can't be removed without the use of a tool, then you could reasonably claim that it has been modified into single-shot configuration.

You're right, the AW laws have nothing to do with it.

Josh3239
04-01-2010, 12:56 PM
If you can just pop the sled out and insert a regular magazine, it's NOT a single-shot gun.

If that was the case you could just have an empty magwell and claim that it's a single-shot gun.

Same deal with a bullet button style lock though. Correct me if I am wrong but how easily the single shot conversion can be removed is not in anyway regulated, just as long as the firearm can only be fired once after reloading. No matter how the sled is in the firearm it is a single shot as long as it is in there, no matter how it is removed it is no longer a single shot. A bullet button is used to fly under the AW regs. It seems to be that locking for a single shot is a slighty conservative view.

I am not arguing, just throwing the idea out there.

CHS
04-01-2010, 1:10 PM
Same deal with a bullet button style lock though. Correct me if I am wrong but how easily the single shot conversion can be removed is not in anyway regulated, just as long as the firearm can only be fired once after reloading. No matter how the sled is in the firearm it is a single shot as long as it is in there, no matter how it is removed it is no longer a single shot. A bullet button is used to fly under the AW regs. It seems to be that locking for a single shot is a slighty conservative view.

Lets bring it back to the AR15 example.

When we follow your logic, an AR15 doesn't need a bullet-button as long as there is no magazine installed, because then it's just a single-shot and not a semi-automatic.

But we all know that's not true.

Once there is no ability to accept a detachable magazine, then the gun's action status will become determined by whether or not it can fire a second round through automatic reloading. If there is a block in the magwell instead of a magazine, then it will become a single-shot gun.

Otherwise it's just a semi-automatic with a plug in the magwell for storage/transport.

Josh3239
04-01-2010, 2:51 PM
When we follow your logic, an AR15 doesn't need a bullet-button as long as there is no magazine installed, because then it's just a single-shot and not a semi-automatic.

Nope, that is not my logic. My logic was that word for word from my last post, "No matter how the sled is in the firearm it is a single shot as long as it is in there, no matter how it is removed it is no longer a single shot." Plus a standard AR15 with detachable magazines and evil features is an AW, but a standard 1911 with detachable magazines is not an AW.


Otherwise it's just a semi-automatic with a plug in the magwell for storage/transport.

I think that is more along the lines of what I was looking for. I guess then the issue that has to come up is where is the line between a plug and a single shot mod. Again, from my own interpretation, as long as in its present configuration it is only capable of single shot fire it is a single shot. Once that plug/sled is removed it is no longer a single shot, once it is placed back inside it is a single shot again. The law doesn't seem to be anymore clear than that.

It seems the addition of the lock is more for making the temporary mod "more permanent" or perhaps tamperproof (for lack of a better way of wording it) and doesn't have to do with making the firearm a single shot actions.

Just thinking out loud...

JBird33
04-01-2010, 3:24 PM
Nope, that is not my logic. My logic was that word for word from my last post, "No matter how the sled is in the firearm it is a single shot as long as it is in there, no matter how it is removed it is no longer a single shot." Plus a standard AR15 with detachable magazines and evil features is an AW, but a standard 1911 with detachable magazines is not an AW.


Think of a true single shot pistol, like a TC Encore or something. There is no way you could ever shoot more than one round at a time without EXTENSIVE modification (if even possible.)

However, in your example of a single shot 1911, no modification is needed to make it a semi-auto. Just put a mag in after dropping the sled with the mag release. A fixed sled is what provides the necessity to modify the gun, therefor making the gun a single shot in true form (however temporary that may be.)

By your manner of thinking, I could put an empty mag in my 1911 and advertise it as a "top load only" weapon.

stilly
04-25-2010, 2:09 AM
I have a VERY long barrel for a 1911 that I bought a long time ago when I wanted a ridiculously long barrel for a 1911, it is at least 7 inches, but probably closer to 10. If only I had seen this post before I cut a mag in half I could still be the lucky owner of 33 mags instead of 32.5 :( Oh but it was for the greater good (at the time anyways).

I was unaware of that 10.5" requirement until I saw this thread so thanks for posting.

Now I have to decide between a used S&W 327 trr8 or a new PT1911ALR... :(

C.W.M.V.
04-28-2010, 4:38 PM
Might work for the RIA longslide...god Ive wanted one forever.
So has anyone actually done this yet?

stilly
05-04-2010, 1:07 AM
Okay here is the deal with the grip screws...
They appear to be metric but just stop there. The bushings are tapered to prevent you from screwing into the mag well so you now need to retap the bushings. A gunsmith I went to to have him put a link and pin onto my 7" barrel told me he would have to retap the bushings with a 8-32 screw threads so I could go to the hardware store. Drill a hole into the safety sled and problem should be solved?

Instead, I am gonna go after the mag ejector and see if I can replace the spring with a roll pin or aprt of it so it can not eject a mag. OR I will file it down and see if you then need a tool to eject the sled.

My original idea was to have a plug that expended into the mag well with a screw, maybe even saw that sled up the middle with a scroll saw and put a screw into it so that when tightened it will expand and hold it into the magwell. Thus needing a screwdriver to get it out?

I already have my 1911 ordered. I hope to have it in about 3 weeks if all goes well.

CHS
05-04-2010, 7:36 AM
I have already manufactured a bullet button for the 1911 :)

It's extremely simple. Just get a replacement mag catch, and remove the button from it. When installed, it will sit below flush with the receiver and requires a tool to release the magazine.

Now I just need a longer barrel.

n2k
05-04-2010, 7:40 AM
bdsmchs,
Congrats on your mod upgrade.....:thumbsup:

liketoshoot
05-04-2010, 7:40 AM
OK, a while ago I had a 1911 shipped in, my bad was it was not CA friendly, I tried to have it converted to single shot and size, but the FFL said no-go, not sure how he ment that but he would not do a transfer even if it was single shot and met the size req.
So if you are going to do this, make sure your FFL will do it before you spend the time and money to have the pistol set up.

n2k
05-04-2010, 7:41 AM
So if you are going to do this, make sure your FFL will do it before you spend the time and money to have the pistol set up.

I'm sure his FFL will.....;)

cineski
05-04-2010, 8:12 AM
A 1911 w/ a 7" extended barrel would be awesome!

Cokebottle
05-04-2010, 5:30 PM
OK, a while ago I had a 1911 shipped in, my bad was it was not CA friendly, I tried to have it converted to single shot and size, but the FFL said no-go, not sure how he ment that but he would not do a transfer even if it was single shot and met the size req.
So if you are going to do this, make sure your FFL will do it before you spend the time and money to have the pistol set up.
If the FFL was not an 07, he would not be permitted to do the conversion.
Whether he was an 07 or not, he is not permitted to allow you to perform modifications prior to DROS on a gun that he receives.
If he is an 07, you can provide him with the parts and he can perform the modifications.

unusedusername
05-04-2010, 7:02 PM
As far as barrels go, didn't Sportsmans Guide sell those 1911 conversion kits with the 16" barrel and the MSH with a stock? They were really cheap and the barrel would ABSOLUTELY make up the size difference. Just don't install the MSH stock and make it a rifle. Voila! Longbarreled single shot with plenty of room for error. Even if it's a little more expensive, you're still going to be able to get the 1911 you want, and can be used again to get another.
Ryan

I would not try this, as with that long of a barrel you might have yourself a long gun in the eyes of the feds.

I'm not sure how DROS would work in that case....

Besides, the conversion kit costs more then the 7" bbl.

Mute
05-04-2010, 9:23 PM
I would not try this, as with that long of a barrel you might have yourself a long gun in the eyes of the feds.

I'm not sure how DROS would work in that case....

Besides, the conversion kit costs more then the 7" bbl.

The barrel length is not a problem. You have to make sure not to have a stock.

1911Operator
05-04-2010, 11:48 PM
what if we turn the 1911 into a long gun! theoratically we could but as many as we want, wouldnt that exempt it from the 1 in 30 day rules? if so that would be awesome!

Z ME FLY
05-04-2010, 11:49 PM
what if we turn the 1911 into a long gun! theoratically we could but as many as we want, wouldnt that exempt it from the 1 in 30 day rules? if so that would be awesome!

I think somehow we can't turn a rifle into a pistol without some loopholes for that. I can be wrong.

1911Operator
05-04-2010, 11:54 PM
I think somehow we can't turn a rifle into a pistol without some loopholes for that. I can be wrong.
but if we somehow found out how to do it, it may get attention from congress, so while they are busy trying to somehow write a new law banning it, we can sneak behind them and take the 2011 feb "no over the web ammo buy" bill and shread it!

Cokebottle
05-05-2010, 5:38 PM
what if we turn the 1911 into a long gun! theoratically we could but as many as we want, wouldnt that exempt it from the 1 in 30 day rules? if so that would be awesome!
I think somehow we can't turn a rifle into a pistol without some loopholes for that. I can be wrong.
Yup... you can turn a pistol into a rifle, but at that point, it's ALWAYS going to be a rifle and can't be converted back or it becomes an SBR under California and NFA rules.
Since it's semi-automatic, centerfire, as long as it's in California, it'll always have to have a minimum barrel length of 16" and a minimum OAL of 30".
Outside of California, it can go down to 26" OAL, but the buttstock will still have to be there.

1911Operator
05-05-2010, 6:24 PM
outside of california? wow, that must be a nice place! i wonder if they have a bullet button outside of california? lol

foxtrotuniformlima
05-05-2010, 9:04 PM
So, have we identified a FFL ion SoCal that understands this loophole ?

asheron2
05-05-2010, 9:23 PM
Me and a Friend got around the roster by taking cheap grips, drilling through them and putting a bolt through the magwell...........(also installed a longer barrel)

CHS
05-06-2010, 7:15 AM
So, have we identified a FFL ion SoCal that understands this loophole ?

There are quite a few already.

Riflegear and OC Armory to name a couple.

It's not a loophole. We're simply following the law regarding Roster-exemption.

wamphyri13
05-06-2010, 8:41 AM
As far as converting it to a rifle, yes, once it's a rifle, a rifle it shall always be. Anyone remember when you can just swap barrels and stocks around your single frame from T/C? With the Contender, all you needed was one frame, and swap your barrels of varying lengths and buttstocks so you can go from pistol to rifle and back again. Gone are those days of common sense and interchangeability.
Ryan

stilly
07-01-2010, 7:11 PM
A 1911 w/ a 7" extended barrel would be awesome!
http://www.stillyvision.com/files/t1.jpg
http://www.stillyvision.com/files/t2.jpg


Brite Spot Pawn did this one for me. I had to order it on gunbroker, then have it shipped to Quinten Laser and then shipped them the parts and they performed minor surgery and shipped it out. Total cost was 624 for gun broker, 55 for transfer and 60 for brite spot pawn. Those grips gotta go though. They grab on and hold but seriously, I want some rubber there.

IF you REALLY love that 1911 and it aint on the list then this might be worth it, IF you can get it wholesale then it could certainly be worth it. I am gonna take it to (B)*** Pro in Ontario and shoot it at the range. I am a Taurus Lover. I have a PT99 that I shot 90 feet under water and I would not have done that with any other gun. I have a special spot in my heart for Taurus.

And glock, and springfield armory, and s&w, and fnh, and benelli, and remington, and mossberg, and GSG, and cmmg, and ria, and OLD ruger mk-II. but not new ruger. They can piss off. I hate new ruger. ef them and the cali-ban... :53:

My next gun I think I will go for is a SA PX9105MLP (full size railed operator armory kote OD green/black)

patsline74
07-01-2010, 7:59 PM
I probably don't understand this stuff fully, but it seems to me that somebody could take the mag out, remove the grips, and run a zip tie through the screw holes. I haven't tried it yet (no zipties), but I highly doubt you could put the mag back in with the zip tie there, making it a single shot. I also think it would be considered permanent because you would need a tool (a la BB) to remove it. Once its dros'd and in your possession, cut the zip tie off and you're good to go. Any thoughts?

Cokebottle
07-01-2010, 8:14 PM
I probably don't understand this stuff fully, but it seems to me that somebody could take the mag out, remove the grips, and run a zip tie through the screw holes. I haven't tried it yet (no zipties), but I highly doubt you could put the mag back in with the zip tie there, making it a single shot. I also think it would be considered permanent because you would need a tool (a la BB) to remove it. Once its dros'd and in your possession, cut the zip tie off and you're good to go. Any thoughts?
You still need a 6"+ barrel and 10.5" minimum OAL.

patsline74
07-01-2010, 8:15 PM
You still need a 6"+ barrel and 10.5" minimum OAL.

Ya I realize that, but as far as single-shot compliance, a ziptie is way cheaper than other methods.

stilly
07-02-2010, 7:24 AM
Ya I realize that, but as far as single-shot compliance, a ziptie is way cheaper than other methods.

In all honesty that is prolly another way to go. BUT. Would that stand up to a doj audit should they show up and see there is a pair of grips missing and there is a zip tie through the handle? Then as they remove their white gloves to expose their razor sharp nails, simply press into it and snip! The nail cuts through the tie like a knife through cold butter. It falls effortlessly to the floor as two words are muttered to the shop owner, "You FAIL..."

Or maybe because you might be able to jam a magazine up into the well and possibly CUT the zip tie?

With the other ways of making you REALLY need to get a TOOL to remove it it looks cleaner and not like some south african zip gun you would find in a tackle box somewhere.

That is my take. Hey yeah I will make mine a single shot, but it is gonna look nice EVEN as a single shot! Perhaps it is pride vs who cares? Or maybe it would be somewhat hard to shoot with a zip tie through the handle.

Ah what do I know, these are just figments of my opinion. Even after I ground down the mag release, I attempted to reblue it to hide the grinding I did...

CHS
07-02-2010, 8:50 AM
Ya I realize that, but as far as single-shot compliance, a ziptie is way cheaper than other methods.

As someone who works at a dealer, I can tell you right now that I would definitely not accept a gun with just a zip tie through the handle as a single-shot gun. Especially if it still has a standard magazine release installed.

You have to pass some level of scrutiny to be legit.

A zip tie and a standard mag release (yes, even on a 1911) would to me be more akin to making the gun "safe" for a gun show, and NOT a legitimate conversion to single shot.

With grip panels on, a sled installed, and a modified mag release and a 7" barrel, you the customer is telling me (AND THE DOJ) that you are making a legitimate effort to comply with the law and could even pass scrutiny if it came to a shooting test.

xrMike
07-02-2010, 10:59 AM
Found this at the OC gunshow this weekend. This would be a perfect single-shot sled device for helping you import an off-roster 1911 on the cheap.I've always wanted one of these:

http://www.mechtechsys.com/1911.html

The Mech-Tech CCU (Carbine Conversion Unit) in .45ACP. Mostly because it looks like a fun plinker, and I already shoot a 1911, so going out to BLM land with carbine + pistol in a single caliber is appealing to me.

If I understand correctly, the methods described in this thread would allow me to legally purchase an inexpensive 1911 off-roster frame from out-of-state, and then use it with the CCU? (I understand some kind of "bullet-button" is required in CA.)

One last question: If I purchase an off-roster 1911 frame this way, and use it with a CCU, does the law require that the 1911 frame must always be used in the carbine config, or can it serve double-duty in a pistol config also?

THanks.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
07-02-2010, 12:14 PM
I've always wanted one of these:

http://www.mechtechsys.com/1911.html

The Mech-Tech CCU (Carbine Conversion Unit) in .45ACP. Mostly because it looks like a fun plinker, and I already shoot a 1911, so going out to BLM land with carbine + pistol in a single caliber is appealing to me.

If I understand correctly, the methods described in this thread would allow me to legally purchase an inexpensive 1911 off-roster frame from out-of-state, and then use it with the CCU? (I understand some kind of "bullet-button" is required in CA.)

One last question: If I purchase an off-roster 1911 frame this way, and use it with a CCU, does the law require that the 1911 frame must always be used in the carbine config, or can it serve double-duty in a pistol config also?

THanks.

No. Once a rifle, always a rifle... except for one particular T/C Contender kit. IIRC, ATFE's current position is that once you've made your 1911 into a rifle with this kit, reconverting it into a pistol constitutes the making of a SBR. An ATFE letter dated 2007 can be found here (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=965907).

stilly
07-06-2010, 6:58 PM
As someone who works at a dealer...
With grip panels on, a sled installed, and a modified mag release and a 7" barrel, you the customer is telling me (AND THE DOJ) that you are making a legitimate effort to comply with the law and could even pass scrutiny if it came to a shooting test.

Yeah what HE said...:ninja:

bwiese
07-13-2010, 2:12 PM
I see some folks going way out on a limb here (and elswhere) and getting themselves into potentially dangerous legal situations.

There have been zero cases/case law on single-shot pistols (and probably zero on the Roster itself) - and there's no regulatory code definitions that help shape scope of statutory law (unlike how 12276.1 AW laws are shaped by 11 CCR 5469 definitions), so caution should be the watchword.

Given things are so cheap to do right - and to establish a clean margin away "from the line" - WTF would anyone want to skip a step? It'd be such a shame for anyone to be busted for mistakes - or for burning valuable defense funds defending edge matters - esspecially when we're not that far from taking down the Roster.

For those having guns converted to a Roster-exempt status, here's a summary of what to watch for, areas of concern, etc.:



Do NOT confuse/conflate 12133PC exempt single-shot pistol status with 12133PC
single-action revolver status.
. .
Remember [I]dimensional compliance is a key issue: if you forget this, all the other work
below is to naught!

Roster-exempt single-shot pistols require 6" min bbl length/10.5" min overall length.

Roster-exempt single-action revolvers require a minimum 3" barrel length and minimum
7.5" overall length. Exempt single-action revolvers also need minimum 5 round capacity
as well.

(All lengths must be measured parallel to bore: don't go play diagonal/ hypotenuse
measurement games.)
.
"Single shot pistol" status means pistol only holds ONE CHAMBERED round + NOTHING
ELSE elsewhere. (I believe some folks may incorrectly think the magazine can hold one
round, but this is wrong - that makes the gun a two-shot pistol, which is of course not
Roster exempt!)
.
"Single-action revolver" status means the revolver must have a decoupled, separate
cocking action and a separate firing action: two separate user actions are required to
fire the gun each round. [There is no requirement for the revolver to look like a 'cowboy
gun' or have any Colt SAA-like appearance: only actual function/operation matters.]
.
Due to unclarity over importation issues in 12125PC prefatory text, relevant mods to a
pistol to achieve 12133PC Roster-exempt status should be made by a manufacturing
FFL outside CA.

Because of the above, a California FFL should NOT order non-Rostered handguns from
out of state and then convert them himself into Roster-exempt forms.

However, a CA resident can modify his own gun into any 12133PC Roster-exempt status;
a CA FFL could buy this Roster-exempt gun and place into his inventory, then resell it as
Roster-exempt. (This is a way around "remote PPT" Rostering issues.)
.

New barrels for single-shot status should keep the gun below 16" min. barrel length and
under 26" overall length to wholly avoid concerns over "it's now a long gun, not a pistol"
and consequent worries about prohibition of subsequent return to pistol status.

So cut/crown those 16" bbls to something shorter! (Depending on the pistol architecture,
somewhere around ~7" - 8" of barrel should get you to the minimum 10.5" overall length
just fine.)
.. .

Magazine wells should be blocked with dummy magazine (like "Blue gun" training mags or
the Beckham Design orange filler), or perhaps a 10-round-or-less magazine converted to
zero-round (not 1!!) capacity using an internal block. or
. .
Dummy/filler/zero-round mags should be blocked in and not hand-removable (otherwise,
it's just a plain 1911!) - so some kinda screwdown maglock variant should be used to
replace the mag catch, or (say) remove the mag catch and instead use grip screws that
go all the way thru to the other side [with appropriate holes/openings in the dummy mag].
. .
In theory (and based off of a somewhat-related successful OLL court case) a device locking
down the mag catch or grip screws going all the way thru and preventing a mag from being
installed would serve to achieve single-shot status - however a big orange or blue piece of
plastic blocking the magwell seems to be a better indicator to any entity expressing concern. In
. .
It can be beneficial to perception of single-shot status if there were a removed/damaged/
distorted/blocked feedramp (i.e., ramp is cut off, or a lump of solder or "weld lump" is on
the feedramp replacement barrel. Nobody can argue it's not a single-shot if there's no way
a round can be fed thru that.
.
It can be beneficial to perception of single-shot status if gas system of pistol is shut down
(gas port closed/piston removed, or gas tube removed & gas port blocked, etc.) Doing a
half-assed job and not closing the gas port can result in hot gases burning the operator
and the conversion might not pass the 'smell test'.
.
HE GUN SHOULD WORK OK AS A SINGLE-SHOT PISTOL AFTER THE MODS, and not be some
exercise in theoreticals. It needs to be 'rationally functional': it must safely be loaded, fire a
round and the round rationally extracted.

A gun that blows up, or that fails into a hunk of metal after one firing doesn't pass a 'smell test'.

There needs to be a rational bias toward functionality; it could easily be argued otherwise
that it's a "broken gun" not an "exempt gun". [We've already seen this failure in the AW
arena in an LA case involving a FAL, where "missing a bolt carrier" did not remove AW status;
I'd expect similar logic to operate in parallel here.]
. .

Certain finer points above can be argued against in pure theory, but having a 'cleaner than Caesar's wife' stance serves the buyer & FFL well.

... especially if this were to somehow end up in a busy urban courtroom with a judge not predisposed to gunnies' thinking. holsters.)

bwiese
07-13-2010, 2:27 PM
I probably don't understand this stuff fully, but it seems to me that somebody could take the mag out, remove the grips, and run a zip tie through the screw holes. I haven't tried it yet (no zipties), but I highly doubt you could put the mag back in with the zip tie there, making it a single shot. I also think it would be considered permanent because you would need a tool (a la BB) to remove it. Once its dros'd and in your possession, cut the zip tie off and you're good to go. Any thoughts?

Conceptually OK, practially speaking it's a bit ugly.

Having long grip screws go thru to the other side would clearly show mag blockage.