PDA

View Full Version : can an AR (5.56) take down a mountainlion?


japps
01-19-2010, 4:57 PM
I work with someone who lives in Foresthill (Wooded foothill community outside of Sacramento) who has a mountain lion ~150lbs that is coming in his property and trying to get his dog. I made the comment that an AR in 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 would be able to take it down. He insists that 5.56 would be enough to take her out. What's your opinion? It seems to me that 5.56 is way too light for a kitty that big

ECVMatt
01-19-2010, 4:59 PM
I would say yes. I watched a mnt lion get killed with one in TX. He was shot through the lungs and DRT.

drunktank
01-19-2010, 4:59 PM
They can and have taken then down. Of course, like anything else, shot placement always helps.

Sig556swat
01-19-2010, 4:59 PM
shot placment is key but it should do the trick altho id be worried about wounding the big cat and having a pissed off mountain lion running around

Kelvrick
01-19-2010, 5:00 PM
Iono that area or the legalities, but I'm sure a well-placed shot will take it down. You guys don't have anything bigger though?

Thinking about the contents of my safe, I'd probably use my savage 10lp 308.

technique
01-19-2010, 5:00 PM
It will kill it....














eventually.

Unless he has the opportunity for good shot placement. In that case it should go down right away.
I shot a bobcat (poor placement) 3 time with a .270 and it didn't die right away.

supermario
01-19-2010, 5:06 PM
I shot a bobcat in the head with a 30-06 at 300yds. It went down first shot. Lol

bballwizard05
01-19-2010, 5:09 PM
dont forget the part where you have at least ten rounds... obviously 1 well placed shot is better than 10 bad ones, but this isnt a bolt action here, so just be ready to pull the trigger a few times. Poor kitty!

mls343
01-19-2010, 5:11 PM
Bigger IS better for Mountain Lions. Otherwise, better be a very good shot. No telling what an upset cat will do.

Good luck.

orangeglo
01-19-2010, 5:25 PM
Heres a reminder of what a 223 round does to live things.

WARNING EXTREMELY GRAPHIC
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=57320&sid=669f25afd7fa409fba0e25345a7e12a3

grammaton76
01-19-2010, 5:33 PM
I think I would rather have an AR with several rounds of 5.56mm, than any bolt gun.

I'd rather go AK / 7.62x39mm, though.

Vinz
01-19-2010, 5:36 PM
A Palo Alto PD officer took down a Mountain lion with a .223 a few years back. One shot, went down and stayed down.


vinz

532Fastback
01-19-2010, 5:37 PM
Before he shoots the animal he needs to get a permit to do so or get a professional fish and game person to take it out.
Personally i would bring the dog inside for a couple weeks and let the mountain lion move on his way.

Jpach
01-19-2010, 5:37 PM
Heres a reminder of what a 223 round does to live things.

WARNING EXTREMELY GRAPHIC
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=57320&sid=669f25afd7fa409fba0e25345a7e12a3

Very awesome

crud
01-19-2010, 5:57 PM
Hasn't 5.56 ammo killed thousands of 150-200 lb. bad guys?

bombadillo
01-19-2010, 5:57 PM
eventually.

Unless he has the opportunity for good shot placement. In that case it should go down right away.
I shot a bobcat (poor placement) 3 time with a .270 and it didn't die right away.

This is the answer. Shot placement yes, but a friggin .270 on a bobcat and 3 shots didn't kill it instantly, thats saying something.

Lone_Gunman
01-19-2010, 6:08 PM
Seems to do the job on feral hogs for the most part.

This vid shows pigs getting shot. Is is graphic. You have been warned.

xiHmYsyVniE

Cokebottle
01-19-2010, 6:20 PM
Hasn't 5.56 ammo killed thousands of 150-200 lb. bad guys?
Animals don't have the same fear reaction to being wounded.
Animal "fight or flight" leans more toward "fight", particularly when wounded... they know they have nothing to lose.

99sparks
01-19-2010, 6:26 PM
You could kill it with a .22. But, I would not want to be where he could get at me… and he may suffer for a while. Having a choice from my guns… I would pick my Winchester 94 in .44 or 12 GA slug. Might even use the Mossin-Nagant.

otteray
01-19-2010, 6:57 PM
Well, I know several 30 Carbines work on really big cats! (My dad's Air Service outfit in Burma, WWII)


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/otteray/Dad/TMP47-1.jpg?t=1263959330

xaaronx
01-19-2010, 7:02 PM
I would feel 100% confident with a .223/556. You dont need a permit to kill something thats threatening you.

gun toting monkeyboy
01-19-2010, 7:15 PM
Mountain lions are notoriously thin-skinned. I know one "contractor" (yes, that is what they called him) that would hunt them with a silenced .223 with a night scope. He had all the right permits, and the Master's in Wildlife Biology to boot. I had a friend with a sheep ranch that was also having problems with them, and I went out several times hunting for it (again, legally) but didn't see it. The F&G guys tagged it by the neighbor's house the night after I gave up. With a .223. So a .223 is more than enough. Use good, soft-nosed ammunition. And remember that it has to either be eating your livestock or threatening you, other people, or your animals when you pop it. Your best bet would be to contact the wardens for F&G in your area, and let them know what is going on. Not the clerks behind the counter at the office. The wardens. They can give you all the ins and outs of doing it legally, and are normally pretty cool about it.

-Mb

mattmcg
01-19-2010, 7:54 PM
Do yourself and your friend a favor and contact Animal Control in your county. It the animal is truly causing a problem, they will know exactly how to dispose of it properly saving your friend the headache and possible legal issues with simply shooting it on site.

On a side note, mountain lions are pretty cool and absolutely amazing creatures. I've seen a few in the hills around my house while hiking with my dog. Everyone I've ever seen hightails it out of there once we are spotted. They have a very healthy fear of humans normally which is a good thing.

rero360
01-19-2010, 7:54 PM
theres always the three S's

Shoot
Shovel
shut up

eljBRD
01-19-2010, 7:58 PM
theres always the three S's

Shoot
Shovel
shut up

true:D

gun toting monkeyboy
01-19-2010, 8:23 PM
They aren't an animal control issue. They are fish and game.

ar15barrels
01-19-2010, 8:30 PM
Use good, soft-nosed ammunition.

This.

Remember that most 223 ammo he probaly has is ball ammo and would NOT be appropriate for dispatching critters.
With a proper soft point bullet, the 223 has killed many many many 150lb class critters.

titan
01-19-2010, 10:11 PM
Do yourself and your friend a favor and contact Animal Control in your county. It the animal is truly causing a problem, they will know exactly how to dispose of it properly saving your friend the headache and possible legal issues with simply shooting it on site.

On a side note, mountain lions are pretty cool and absolutely amazing creatures. I've seen a few in the hills around my house while hiking with my dog. Everyone I've ever seen hightails it out of there once we are spotted. They have a very healthy fear of humans normally which is a good thing.

Best advice yet. Live and let live just because you can shoot it doesn't mean you have to.

hnoppenberger
01-19-2010, 10:31 PM
cats are soft targets. .223 would be in the perfect spectrum for pelt preservation. they go down easy, from what i read.

.40Cal
01-20-2010, 9:49 AM
I shot a bobcat in the head with a 30-06 at 300yds. It went down first shot. Lol

Now, that's a "Hunting" rifle ;)

Iono that area or the legalities, but I'm sure a well-placed shot will take it down. You guys don't have anything bigger though?

Thinking about the contents of my safe, I'd probably use my savage 10lp 308.

I was thinking the same thing about Legalities. Not sure how you'd get involved into Legal *****. But I'd consider anything in 30 caliber, even SKS/AK. I think the 223 might do it; just like a .22 will kill a man, but is not really advisable if you really want to shoot an intruder.

japps
01-20-2010, 9:56 AM
thanks for all the advice. I don't think he would actually shoot it, but it has been in his yard and a neighbors trying to get at their dogs...and getting right up on his house. He knows to call fish & game. It was more of a hypothetical discussion because I would have suggested a larger round...so when he said that the 5.56 would be enough I didn't believe him. Guess I was wrong.

dfxjedi
01-20-2010, 10:49 AM
theres always the three S's

Shoot
Shovel
shut up

That's what I would do:cool:.

gun toting monkeyboy
01-20-2010, 10:50 AM
If the ML is habituated to humans, and accossiates their houses with food, it needs to be put down ASAP. Getting the occassional dog is one thing. But having one eat a kid is another. I like lions. I really do. And I have no urge to go shoot them when they aren't a problem. But in an area with people, and the lions are coming around houses looking for food? That is a tradgedy waiting to happen. Call F&G. And if you/he see it and it is going after dogs/people/you feel threatened, take it out. Period. Do the Southpark "It was coming right at me..." thing if you need to. But it needs to be gone before somebody gets hurt.

taperx
01-20-2010, 11:02 AM
A warden once told me if you see (its hair on its back stand up or start to hiss!!) The cat is in attack mode so beware! Just remember to tell the authorities that that is what it was doing at you, your dog, your kids ect. You were fearing for the life of your property, family and yourself.

someR1
01-20-2010, 11:03 AM
if it was close enough, i would rather use my 7.62x39, or maybe one or two shots with the mosin nagant:cool2:

WeekendWarrior
01-20-2010, 1:29 PM
If he wants to give away the skull, I'll take it!

rero360
01-20-2010, 2:07 PM
I should add a fourth S to the list, skin, that would make an awsome rug lol

Vanguard
01-20-2010, 2:07 PM
I shot a bobcat in the head with a 30-06 at 300yds. It went down first shot. Lol

I hope you weren't surprised by this result.

The DRis
01-20-2010, 2:10 PM
Mattmcg,

I don't know where your getting your info, but mountain lions are overpopulating CA. They are killing the deer population, and we can't do crap about it because they are "thrill kills". They don't have a fear of us, proven my the numerous hikers, bikers, and joggers who have been attacked. And after investigation the cat was sitting and waiting for them.

Vanguard
01-20-2010, 2:13 PM
Best advice yet. Live and let live just because you can shoot it doesn't mean you have to.

I don't think you'd be saying that if the thing kept coming onto your property and you had kids and pets. Watching your kids or pets isn't enough with big cats. They attack from stealth and carry off their prey. One could grab your toddler and be over the fence with him before you could drop your lemonade and get out of your chair.

sierrawoodsman
01-20-2010, 2:19 PM
Yes a .223 will do the job, The old man who lived next to me for years killed a quite few bear with a mini-14. Please note that to legally kill a Lion it must be or about to attack you or your property (Goat, dog, sheep ect). I don't condone any law breaking activity but there is all ways S.S.S.

P.S. I live outside foresthill and I must warn you that the the local D.F.G. warden is an active calguns member, and he is the one who drew my attention to this thread.

stix213
01-20-2010, 2:27 PM
Full grown 200LB humans die from .22LR all the time. A 150LB cat can definitely be killed by a .223. Though, if a big cat were outside and I had multiple calibers available I might chose a bigger one all things being equal.

gun toting monkeyboy
01-20-2010, 5:28 PM
Yes a .223 will do the job, The old man who lived next to me for years killed a quite few bear with a mini-14. Please note that to legally kill a Lion it must be or about to attack you or your property (Goat, dog, sheep ect). I don't condone any law breaking activity but there is all ways S.S.S.

P.S. I live outside foresthill and I must warn you that the the local D.F.G. warden is an active calguns member, and he is the one who drew my attention to this thread.

So what are his thoughts on the matter? Yay or nay on the .223? And what does he say about one hunting for food around houses?

Cokebottle
01-20-2010, 5:57 PM
So what are his thoughts on the matter? Yay or nay on the .223? And what does he say about one hunting for food around houses?
If it's a life or death situation... IE, the cat is after you or one of your kids, shoot with whatever is available and worry about the legalities later.

Just remember...
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/149674 ;)

AM9000
01-20-2010, 6:06 PM
Now I'm no big game hunter... but if I was aiming to kill an apex-predator, Id reach for good-ol 7.62x39.

hnoppenberger
01-20-2010, 6:14 PM
did the doubters see the video of all those boars being put down one hit form an m4gery?

.223 is no joke inside of a couple hundred yards, the damn things explode.

sierrawoodsman
01-20-2010, 6:27 PM
If one was to see the lion putting a stalk on your dog then by all means shoot, But It must be clear that the lion was attacking or about to attack. The odds of seeing such an ambush take place would astronomical. If the dog is an outside dog and the lion would like it to become a meal the dogs days are numbered. I Have lost 7 goats to cats over the years and despite a 6 foot fence and large dogs the goats have not stood a chance.

DaveInOroValley
01-20-2010, 6:49 PM
If that were the case then we shouldn't be using them in our military. The 223 is definitely capable of doing that job.

taperx
01-20-2010, 7:12 PM
In my previous post i mentioned what the warden said to look out for. I left out the part that if you or somone gets the warden involved the first thing he/she will do is to begin a criminal investigation! If this gets reported make sure it was under the right circumstance!! I personally asked the warden because i run cattle and am always worried about calves.

turbochris
01-20-2010, 7:14 PM
yes you can witha good shot

xaaronx
01-20-2010, 7:19 PM
Im glad I dont live in an area where there are mountain lions. I used to. I like to run Mission Trails when I can, when I lived right next to it I used to run the Fortuna Mt. trail all the time. There are mountain lions out there, and it would make night hiking sketchy at times. In my opinion, I dont give 2 ****s about the lions. I dont care if they die off. I dont think they are "beautiful" or "majestic", but thats just me. I dont sweat em, because FOR THE MOST PART they dont stalk humans, but if it came down to a lion and my dog, that lion is done for.

a.tinkerer
01-20-2010, 8:04 PM
I have a winchester 92 in 25-20 that I've thought would be a sweet little rifle for cats over hounds.

All you need is one good CNS hit and it's done.

My Plott Hound goes completely off the hitch around bear, lion, or coon.
His sole mission statement in this world is to bay or tree them and he does it well.
I can't wait JUST CAN'T WAIT until we sell our Oakland home and move to NV.
They hand cougar tags out over the counter, no drawing, go get'em boys!


223 is enough

Cheers
Tinker

supermario
01-20-2010, 10:23 PM
I hope you weren't surprised by this result.


I wasnt:D. It looked like a basketball that was deflated..

CSACANNONEER
01-20-2010, 10:30 PM
Many a lion has been treed by a pack of hounds and killed with one well placed round of .22lr or .22mag. The real questions are: Can your friend get a depravation permit? and, Can your friend reliably make a one shot kill? A wounded lion on the loose is a lot more dangerous than a healthy lion. Be legal and stay safe!

tvfreakarms
07-17-2010, 12:18 AM
How about a barrett .416 cal w/incendiary ammo. That might work.:D

tvfreakarms
07-17-2010, 12:21 AM
I'm no animal lover my self. I really don't care for cat's, dogs or whatever (use them as food for all i care. I joke with you guys:D). But there is a reason we have mountain lions. They keep other pest becoming a pest. :D

Im glad I dont live in an area where there are mountain lions. I used to. I like to run Mission Trails when I can, when I lived right next to it I used to run the Fortuna Mt. trail all the time. There are mountain lions out there, and it would make night hiking sketchy at times. In my opinion, I dont give 2 ****s about the lions. I dont care if they die off. I dont think they are "beautiful" or "majestic", but thats just me. I dont sweat em, because FOR THE MOST PART they dont stalk humans, but if it came down to a lion and my dog, that lion is done for.

limitdown
07-17-2010, 2:21 AM
Yes, very easily. Mountain lions are like the size of a big Golden Retriever.
I've taken 300lb pigs with my AR, and pigs have much thicker fur/hide and meat than felines.

40cal.
07-17-2010, 3:04 AM
theres always the three S's

Shoot
Shovel
shut up

YES

VictorFranko
07-17-2010, 4:28 AM
Why not call the authorities (animal control) and let them set a trap?
I trapped a big 'ol brown bear with my NPS Ranger buddy up at the Big Horn River in Montana.
Man, that was an experience! Truly something I will never forget.

mif_slim
07-17-2010, 8:02 AM
rero got it!

jk. we are all law abiding citizens here and none of us ever breaks or has ever broken any law right guys?!

to OP: lots said it. lion has thin skin, a .223 will be enuff.

semiautosniper
07-17-2010, 8:12 AM
A 45 will take down a big cat... not to mention 223.

MrPlink
07-17-2010, 10:12 AM
Can a full auto ak take down a mountain lion at 1000yds? ;)

Endless
07-17-2010, 10:19 AM
Yes it will.

30 round magazines will do some damage but again placement is key.
I am more worried about a brown bear up here. I do have the 150 round 5.56 drum that I carry for the "just in case scenerios" and there is no way a mountionlion can survive any part of that. When I go out at night to walk my dog here in the forest I always carry my KRISS Super V with night optic with about 3, 30 round magazines so I am not worried about any mountainlions or bobcats. :43: I should take my SPAS 12 but thats overkill IMO.

Here was a great kill on a huge Cougar here in Oregon..

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm203/SDR_4570/COugar2.jpg

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm203/SDR_4570/Cougar.jpg

turbogg
07-17-2010, 10:39 AM
Heres a reminder of what a 223 round does to live things.

WARNING EXTREMELY GRAPHIC
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=57320&sid=669f25afd7fa409fba0e25345a7e12a3

Wow, that dear head is f'd up. So much for all the negative comments that a 223 round isn't very effective. Looks effective enough to me.

turbogg
07-17-2010, 10:42 AM
Yes it will.

30 round magazines will do some damage but again placement is key.
I am more worried about a brown bear up here. I do have the 150 round 5.56 drum that I carry for the "just in case scenerios" and there is no way a mountionlion can survive any part of that. When I go out at night to walk my dog here in the forest I always carry my KRISS Super V with night optic with about 3, 30 round magazines so I am not worried about any mountainlions or bobcats. :43: I should take my SPAS 12 but thats overkill IMO.

Here was a great kill on a huge Cougar here in Oregon..

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm203/SDR_4570/COugar2.jpg

That is one seriously huge cougar. I'd hate to think what he would have done to you, if he had half a chance.

MrPlink
07-17-2010, 11:17 AM
I would not have guessed cougar on that one. . . But then again I'm a city rat.

Fate
07-17-2010, 11:55 AM
Personally i would bring the dog inside for a couple weeks and let the mountain lion move on his way.

Mountain lions are territorial (which can actually span vast areas). Bottom line is the cat won't be going away. He'll return again and again and again as he does his rounds.

Endless
07-17-2010, 12:21 PM
I would not have guessed cougar on that one. . . But then again I'm a city rat.

Yup its about 5 hours north of Northern California, near Portland.

pyromensch
07-17-2010, 4:01 PM
Hasn't 5.56 ammo killed thousands of 150-200 lb. bad guys?

vietnam
they were 80-125 lbs

pyromensch
07-17-2010, 4:05 PM
A 45 will take down a big cat... not to mention 223.

cool, i wasn't aware that a 45 could take down a 223:)

Cokebottle
07-17-2010, 4:15 PM
cool, i wasn't aware that a 45 could take down a 223:)
That sounds like one that Mythbusters would LOVE to attempt!

bjl333
07-17-2010, 4:42 PM
the 223 has killed many many many 150lb class critters.

both 2 and 4 legged !!

Helpful_Cub
07-17-2010, 4:44 PM
I read the shot placement comment and it brought back a memory.

Here's Youtube video of some guys Cat hunting and why shot placement is important.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgU6fVzNkoQ

Kerplow
07-17-2010, 6:05 PM
mountain lion have been know to hunt dog for sport. i wouldnt leave my dog alone in a yard that a big kitty though was his turf. two to three large powerful dogs, that might be another story.

in fact, if i had a big kitty habitually visiting my property i would be inclined to dispatch it as long as there was a safe direction to shoot. them big kitty cats are cute as hell but anyone who's ever watched even a house cat hunt should know that if the cat has you on the menu you probably wont see it coming till its too late.

if course, it would have to be coming right for us and hair standing up with the hissing and what not:rolleyes:;)

aGunForEachHand
07-18-2010, 7:09 AM
5.56 Nato can take down a 200lb+ person, why not a 150lb cat? As others have said, shot placement and make sure it's not plinking ammo.

bigstick61
07-18-2010, 10:40 AM
Personally, I would rather use my .303. Either my 180 grain or 215 grain Remington Core-Lokt softpoints (at 2310 and 2030 fps respectively out of my L-E No.5) should do the trick. I would at the least feel much better about it than with a .223.

OneApart
07-18-2010, 10:47 AM
I believe it would be possible...... but I would fix a bayonet just in case :D.

jokat989
07-18-2010, 11:02 AM
the thing about mountan lions is that they dont like to attack things head on. they are afraid of getting hurt so they opt for the stealthy attack at dawn and dusk. however, if it feals thretend by you either comming into its area it might attack. shooting it would be reserved to when it starts advancing tward you and you have no other option. that being said ive scaired a few mountal lions away using a large jacket and a lot of yealing whal i was only armed with a 5inch folding pocket knife.

God Bless The Mauser
07-18-2010, 12:07 PM
A mountain lion ate a deer 100 yards from my house. Went out in the morning, the horse was totally freaked out, saw the kill by the fence and saw tracks so that's how I knew what did it. It also was in some major fight with a raccoon down in the creek a couple times, all sorts of nasty screaming coming out of the bushes. My dad got so pissed that I was walking over to the bushes to see what it was. I did have an M1 Garand with me though :D

Lead-Thrower
07-18-2010, 4:04 PM
Although they are cool animals, and I would not want to dispatch one unless absolutely necessary, those things creep me out. Freakin' ninja cats they are...

Jpach
07-18-2010, 4:14 PM
I read the shot placement comment and it brought back a memory.

Here's Youtube video of some guys Cat hunting and why shot placement is important.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgU6fVzNkoQ

Such a crazy video. Sucks that they would kill such an awesome creature anyways. Im all for hunting, and I do hunt, but sometimes I think certain animals are just too cool to hunt. To each his own though.

patriot_man
07-18-2010, 4:58 PM
I don't think you'd be saying that if the thing kept coming onto your property and you had kids and pets. Watching your kids or pets isn't enough with big cats. They attack from stealth and carry off their prey. One could grab your toddler and be over the fence with him before you could drop your lemonade and get out of your chair.

or a Dingo.

I think you could take it down if it doesn't get to you first..

pyromensch
07-18-2010, 6:19 PM
5.56 Nato can take down a 200lb+ person, why not a 150lb cat? As others have said, shot placement and make sure it's not plinking ammo.

different kinds of motivation

k1dude
07-18-2010, 6:50 PM
I read the shot placement comment and it brought back a memory.

Here's Youtube video of some guys Cat hunting and why shot placement is important.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgU6fVzNkoQ

How many of us could've kept our cool during a charge like that? :eek: And you'd be lucky to get one shot off, forget 2. Try aiming under that kind of pressure. I think the whole party missed the Lion during the charge. That dude is lucky he isn't dead.