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BRANDON7766
10-20-2009, 7:46 PM
Ok so I understand how the bullet button works, the MMG and the U-15. I know I would be the one person to get my gun taken away should I use the bullet button and I dislike the way the MMG and the U-15 look. I dont like the idea of permanently fixing the mag either.

What are my other options?

What are some extremel legal models....I just discovered Saiga and Henderson rifle/stock versions of the AK...what else is out there?

Thanks,

Brandon

Josh3239
10-20-2009, 7:47 PM
There is nothing more legal. It is either legal or it isn't. If you really feel that way, then single shot your rifles.

technique
10-20-2009, 7:48 PM
There is nothing more legal. It is either legal or it isn't. If you really feel that way, then single shot your rifles.

+1...

there is no in between...its either legal or its not...and its all legal.

Lateralus
10-20-2009, 7:50 PM
It doesnt seem like you are that comfortable with owning an AR clone, but they are all legal. If you want, you can carry around some flowcharts to show to anyone inquisitive enough to ask. Ive got extras, Ill even mail you some if you want.

If you are looking for something less "intrusive", I would recommend a Saiga. Then, when you feel more comfortable with California law, you can get it converted. Other than that, bolt action rifles are great fun and attract no attention from LEOs as to their legality.

djleisure
10-20-2009, 7:52 PM
Kel-Tec or Ruger Mini-14 sounds about your speed.

PolishMike
10-20-2009, 7:56 PM
Mini-14 sounds about right for you.

cgseanp1
10-20-2009, 7:57 PM
haha, "extremely" legal :)

pacrimguru
10-20-2009, 7:58 PM
that travesty of an "AR", the Bushmaster Carbon 15 sold at Tuners...

http://www.turners.com/engage/ads/10-16-09/bushmaster.gif

features a sealed magwell, so no need to even fix a mag!

BRANDON7766
10-20-2009, 8:04 PM
I went to a local gunshow to ask questions and purchase one and ALL of the vendors I spoke (5?) with were uneasy about saying its "legal" in fact most referred to the bullet button as a "gray area" and stated that if a cop wanted to be a dick he could even arrest me until the DA through it out etc. I fully understand body language and they were all very uncomfortable even discussing the subject....which is what caused me to be uneasy.

I am not comfortable with it, your right. Perhaps after some more time researching and spending time on these forums I can gain some confidence in the law. I am sure I will get an AR Clone at some point but want to know some really cool other options in the mean time to get me started shooting again...Too bad I can't simply drive a gun up to sacramento to get it "signed off"

Upon my researching this subject, I found this website.

Thanks again for everyone answering my questions...

technique
10-20-2009, 8:06 PM
I went to a local gunshow to ask questions and purchase one and ALL of the vendors I spoke (5?) with were uneasy about saying its "legal" in fact most referred to the bullet button as a "gray area" and stated that if a cop wanted to be a dick he could even arrest me until the DA through it out etc. I fully understand body language and they were all very uncomfortable even discussing the subject....which is what caused me to be uneasy.

I am not comfortable with it, your right. Perhaps after some more time researching and spending time on these forums I can gain some confidence in the law. I am sure I will get an AR Clone at some point but want to know some really cool other options in the mean time to get me started shooting again...Too bad I can't simply drive a gun up to sacramento to get it "signed off"

Upon my researching this subject, I found this website.

Thanks again for everyone answering my questions...



Well, Welcome to the forum..maybe if you tell us where you are located, we can send you to someone that has the answers and can discuss it with you without saying "gray area"...There are plenty of knowledgeable vendors here

Cokebottle
10-20-2009, 8:14 PM
if a cop wanted to be a dick he could even arrest me until the DA through it out etc.
If a cop wants to be a dick, he can arrest you for anything he feels like until the DA throws it out.

1919_4_ME
10-20-2009, 8:15 PM
Use a BB and a MMG, there no worries...:D

sorensen440
10-20-2009, 8:16 PM
Its either legal or not

Josh3239
10-20-2009, 8:18 PM
I went to a local gunshow to ask questions and purchase one and ALL of the vendors I spoke (5?) with were uneasy about saying its "legal"

Because they are stupid. The bullet button, though not named but rather described, is written into the law as legal. Legal definition of a detachable magazine is "any ammunition feeding device that can readily be removed from the firearm with neither disassembly nor the use of a tool being required. A bullet is considered a tool". It was written that way on purpose! It was written that way for the fixed magazine SKS. We simply applied that law to our ARs.


in fact most referred to the bullet button as a "gray area"

Gray area means I don't know the answer. There is nothing that is kinda sorta legal, but not really, but you can, but don't flaunt, etc, etc. It is either legal or it isn't.

and stated that if a cop wanted to be a dick he could even arrest me until the DA through it out etc

Umm ok. A cop could pull you over for speeding even if you weren't speeding and write you a citation. A cop could search your house without your consent. A cop could see your pocket knife and throw you in jail for carrying a concealed weapon. It doesn't mean it is right, it doesn't mean anything will come of it. Police really don't go around looking to lock people up because they are having a bad day, they do have things to do and they are trained for dealing with what they have to do and how to do it.

I fully understand body language and they were all very uncomfortable even discussing the subject....which is what caused me to be uneasy.

They should be uncomfortable. They were giving bad advice based on... well nothing. They clearly don't know the law, if they were smart they would have said that they honestly didn't know.

I am not comfortable with it, your right. Perhaps after some more time researching and spending time on these forums I can gain some confidence in the law.

Well for starters has any cop thrown you in jail for no reason at all? If you are seriously worried about randomly getting thrown in jail than gun owning isn't for you whether it is an AR clone or a bolt action .22LR. IIRC there are over 20,000 post-ban AR clones now in California. Convictions = 0, arrests = less than 10.

Thanks again for everyone answering my questions...

I hope I wasn't to harsh on you. Just trying to make you understand. I hope you do learn the law, that is the actual text from the Penal Code and do make an educated decision based on that knowledge. For starters please read the Flowchart, specifically the 2nd page: http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf also please go to our newbie section: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=56818

cgseanp1
10-20-2009, 8:19 PM
If you are really paranoid, but want a semi auto rifle, buy something at like Big 5 or Turners.

GraveTrain
10-20-2009, 8:21 PM
What are my other options?

Sadly, one option is to pull up stakes and move to a FREE state. :(

Otherwise, CalGuns has an invaluable great flow chart they use to determine what's legal and what's not. Look on the home page. That's a good place to start.

FrankG
10-20-2009, 8:41 PM
flow chart... helps looking at it on paper sometimes...

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

BRANDON7766
10-20-2009, 8:44 PM
I didnt realize I came off as paranoid just conservative on the subject.

Anyway, I live in Modesto Cal.

and you guys have good points on this subject, which is why I made the post...but lets not derail it with more legality talk....what are some options that do not require a u-15, mmg or fixed magazine?

feel free to just list some....thanks.

lorax3
10-20-2009, 8:45 PM
You will run into some incorrect info wherever you go or whoever you talk to.

Someone will think a Saiga is illegal because it says 'Saiga' on the banned list.

Someone will think a Kel-Tec is illegal because it folds and goes under 26"

Someone will think possession of 30 round magazines is illegal.

Someone will think that an OLL AR with a bullet button and an empty magwell is an AW because it has the ability to accept an attachable magazine.

I will step into the line of fire and say before I found CalGuns I knew very little compared to what I now know about firearm laws.
LEO's have been issued memo's about bullet buttons so you are much safer with them now then you were years ago.
When I first heard about the 'OLL Stuff' I never thought I would have the minerals to build one. Finally after familiarizing myself with the legalities I saw no reason not to get one.

If your legal firearms are wrongfully taken there are people who can assist.

Edit: IMO, gun owners need to familiar with some gun laws. 12020 in regards to firearms, 12025, 12031, and 12276.1 at a minimum.

BRANDON7766
10-20-2009, 8:48 PM
flow chart... helps looking at it on paper sometimes...

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf


Very helpful...thanks. I know a personal flaw is that I am over-analytical, but I run a bank so at least it's good for that lol.

bsim
10-20-2009, 8:49 PM
Mini-14. M1A. Anything without a pistol grip.

Simple.

sorensen440
10-20-2009, 8:52 PM
Mini-14. M1A. Anything without a pistol grip.

Simple.
Its not that simple
The OP needs to learn the AW laws if he wants to have any semi auto IMO

There are more things then a pistol grip that can trigger the AW laws

Ive seen enough Mini-14,Su-16 and M1a assault weapons over the past few years

GettinReady
10-20-2009, 8:56 PM
Springfield M1A

sorensen440
10-20-2009, 8:58 PM
Springfield M1A
A legally configured Springfield M1a yes

10 points to the first person to tell me why this is an assault weapon in california
http://www.webarms.com/Gun%20Suppliers/Springfield%20Armory/SA9102Large.gif

GearHead
10-20-2009, 9:01 PM
A legally configured Springfield M1a yes

10 points to the first person to tell me why this is an assault weapon in california
http://www.webarms.com/Gun%20Suppliers/Springfield%20Armory/SA9102Large.gif

Bayonet lug?

sorensen440
10-20-2009, 9:02 PM
Bayonet lug?
Nope
Next ?

GammaRei
10-20-2009, 9:07 PM
Wooden Stock?

- G

sorensen440
10-20-2009, 9:08 PM
Wooden Stock?

- G
funny but wrong
next?

This isnt a trick question btw
no hidden devices or anything on this guy
Its a standard M1a

Why is it illegal ?

technique
10-20-2009, 9:08 PM
Wooden Stock?

- G

Burn it!

GraveTrain
10-20-2009, 9:16 PM
Made outside of the US? Thereby not meeting the required number of US made parts?

There are Korean M1A's out there now... right?

sorensen440
10-20-2009, 9:17 PM
Made outside of the US? Thereby not meeting the required number of US made parts?
Nope try again
This is a standard Springfield armory made in the USA M1a

technique
10-20-2009, 9:17 PM
FLASH HIDER DUMMIES!

X-NewYawker
10-20-2009, 9:18 PM
Listen, The Government is coming after all of them eventually anyway.
The Health care reform bill lists gun owners as "high risk"
Once there's no private insurance companies, they will deny us health care because we own guns!

sorensen440
10-20-2009, 9:18 PM
FLASH HIDER DUMMIES!
Ding ding ding we have a winner

anothergunnut
10-20-2009, 9:19 PM
flash hider OOPs, too slow

Back to the OP. There are tens of thousands of OLLs in CA. You can go to any rifle range on any weekend and see many of them. And nobody is getting arrested or convicted of having an AW. The debate about legality is over; the gun banners have lost.

X-NewYawker
10-20-2009, 9:21 PM
A legally configured Springfield M1a yes

10 points to the first person to tell me why this is an assault weapon in california
http://www.webarms.com/Gun%20Suppliers/Springfield%20Armory/SA9102Large.gif

Fixed sling swivels?

uncomfortable metal butt plate?

Flimsy fiberglas forend?

Wait... I got it -- Big a** magazine -- yeah -- that's pure, unadulterated evil there...

GraveTrain
10-20-2009, 9:48 PM
Nope try again
This is a standard Springfield armory made in the USA M1a

Dang, thought it was a trick question. :p

slappomatt
10-20-2009, 9:51 PM
yeah I saw that right away. they make a kali legal version with a muzzle break but it doesn't look as cool as the FH. why haven't I left this *****-hole yet?

Connor P Price
10-20-2009, 10:10 PM
OP, as has been pointed out previously, there are laws that can be applied to almost any rifle depending on its configuration. So even if you don't decide to go with an evil looking AR or AK variant it is important to be well versed in the laws that apply to your hobby. The various rifles that have been mentioned could all be good options that don't have the same stigma attached to them that ARs and AKs have, but they are no more or less legal.

The best advice is to read up on here for a while, check out the flowchart, and spend a little time at a local range so you can see the many people likely to be there with the "evil" rifles.

In the end, even if you don't decide on an AR or AK, you'll be better off for the time you've spent researching, and you'll have a greater understanding of your rights. This is a huge return for very little time spent looking into it.

blackrifle242
10-20-2009, 10:51 PM
Full Auto rubberband gun. I saw one at the fair for $35.00. I'm with everybody. Since I joined Calguns almost a year ago, I have filled my brain with tons of knowledge. I am just a little less ignorant now. Read as much as you can and ask questions. A stupid questions is better than a new set of braclets and a spooning partner.

MasterYong
10-21-2009, 7:18 AM
I understand the OP's concern: I have personally had law enforcement tell me that they would arrest anyone that had an AR-type rifle and didn't have the AW papers to go with it. I'm pretty sure the jack-hole DA in Humboldt County would attempt to try the case too. On the other hand I've had EPD tell me that they're not worried about it. I own several ARs with no fear of legal repercussions.

That being said I vote +1000 for the M1A. I've got a Scout and it's by far my favorite rifle. The only reason I got ARs at all is that they fun, but the M1A IMHO is a much more formidable weapon (::ducks::)

The CA-legal one has a muzzle brake, yes, but really ask yourself: which would really benefit you more? A FH or a MB? I can't imagine ever truly needing a FH for my M1A, but the brake makes followup shots NICE.

Dragunov
10-21-2009, 7:32 AM
Bayonet lug?

It looks scary:D

I agree with everyone here, but here is a list that I know
are legal semis that you're not likely to get hassled over.

Kel-Tec SU-16 A/B/CA NOT the C.
SKS
Saiga (any flavor)
M1 Carbine
M1 Garand
Mini-14
Mini-30

If you buy it from a reputable dealer, It will be legal.

Sniper3142
10-21-2009, 8:21 AM
If a cop wants to be a dick, he can try to arrest you for anything he feels like until the DA throws it out.

Fixed it for you.

;)

sspen003
10-21-2009, 8:25 AM
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu118/sspen003/8897_1.jpg

Hell yeah!

darkest2000
10-21-2009, 8:51 AM
Sounds like you should get a Crossman.

darkest2000
10-21-2009, 8:55 AM
A legally configured Springfield M1a yes

10 points to the first person to tell me why this is an assault weapon in california
http://www.webarms.com/Gun%20Suppliers/Springfield%20Armory/SA9102Large.gif

It has both detacheable magazine and a flash hider.

There are no bayonet lugs on the rifle pictured although they're not considered an evil feature in CA so that made no difference.

BrowningTBolt
10-21-2009, 9:13 AM
Too bad I can't simply drive a gun up to sacramento to get it "signed off"

You obviously went to the wrong gun store. Try River City Gun Exchange. They sell all manner of off-list lowers. They will get you "signed off."

RobG
10-21-2009, 9:30 AM
FLASH HIDER DUMMIES!

Huh? I thought flash hider dummies were good, real flash hiders not good:p

To the OP, don't buy a semi auto anything if you are worried. Spend your dough on a sweet bolt action rifle and try some long range shooting. If you don't want a U-15, MMG or some kind of mag lock, your are pretty much SOL. You could get a Bushmaster sealed mag well gun :ack2: but its really only a bench gun being that its a top load set up.

sspen003
10-21-2009, 10:22 AM
It has both detacheable magazine and a flash hider.

There are no bayonet lugs on the rifle pictured although they're not considered an evil feature in CA so that made no difference.

The detachable mag is fine and perfectly legal

kf6tac
10-21-2009, 10:49 AM
The detachable mag is fine and perfectly legal

Not when coupled with the flash hider, which is what darkest2000 was getting at: "It has both detachable magazine and a flash hider."

sspen003
10-21-2009, 10:55 AM
Not when coupled with the flash hider, which is what darkest2000 was getting at: "It has both detachable magazine and a flash hider."

my mistake

stix213
10-21-2009, 10:59 AM
Ok so I understand how the bullet button works, the MMG and the U-15. I know I would be the one person to get my gun taken away should I use the bullet button and I dislike the way the MMG and the U-15 look. I dont like the idea of permanently fixing the mag either.

What are my other options?

What are some extremel legal models....I just discovered Saiga and Henderson rifle/stock versions of the AK...what else is out there?

Thanks,

Brandon

Extremely legal is a ridiculous concept, like being extremely alive or extremely at work. It is either legal or not, there aren't any degrees of being legal. It sounds like an AR-15 is definitely not something your stomach can handle though.

Suvorov
10-21-2009, 12:04 PM
Its not that simple
The OP needs to learn the AW laws if he wants to have any semi auto IMO

There are more things then a pistol grip that can trigger the AW laws

Ive seen enough Mini-14,Su-16 and M1a assault weapons over the past few years

+1

From working as a range safety officer, I have seen far more Mini's and M1As illegally configured than I have seen AR/AK clones illegally configured. Seems many people think just because it is an M14 pattern rifle, they can have flash supressors, pistol grips, forward grips, etc. The sad truth is that if you want to own ANY semi-auto rifle in Kalifornia it behooves you to understand the myriad complexities of the law.

As for the OP, a stock Mini-14 is an all round good rifle that will most likely suit your needs until BRD finally takes hold. The latest models have a thicker profile barrel and have more than acceptable practical accuracy. As long as you leave it stock as you purchased it from the dealer you shouldn't have any problems or explaining to do.

That is, unless someone wants to be a richard.

lorax3
10-21-2009, 12:09 PM
Extremely legal is a ridiculous concept

Although I would agree something can only be illegal or legal, some concepts I would put into a grey area.

Not because they are illegal, but are so on the edge that most law enforcement officers and even some DA's would assume them illegal at first glance.

A CA legal AOW comes to mind.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb271/m24armorer/Image001.jpg

Possibly NERF's or a weapon that is not should fired with a barrel over 16 inches, OAL over 26", a pistol grip and a detachable magazine.

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m446/bdsmchs/not-aw.jpg

I think you get the idea. Again it all comes down to your personal preference.

hulasboy
10-21-2009, 12:17 PM
Extremely legal is a ridiculous concept, like being extremely alive or extremely at work. It is either legal or not, there aren't any degrees of being legal.

this is not entirely true. the legal/illegal status can be more or less rock solid depending on precedents. every time the court rules on something new, it sets a new precedent. for example, the us supreme court just made a ruling (Melendez-Diaz v. Massachusetts) that may make red light cameras illegal because they violate the 6th amendment. right now they are legal, but this ruling creates a precedent that jeopardizes their legality. A ruling setting a precedent that bullet buttons were legal would further secure their legality, just as a ruling that they are illegal would make them illegal. since there is no precedent on them, they do stand in somewhat of a gray area, as far as I understand it.

additionally, the mag on that M1 looks like a 20 round magazine, not a 10 round magazine

sspen003
10-21-2009, 12:33 PM
arnt preban 20's ok?

beenawhile
10-21-2009, 12:38 PM
^^^^ +1.Could of had the 20 rounder before the ban though.

hulasboy
10-21-2009, 12:39 PM
yes, true.

technique
10-21-2009, 12:51 PM
additionally, the mag on that M1 looks like a 20 round magazine, not a 10 round magazine

The only thing illegal on the M1A is the flash hider. Assuming you own a preban 20 round mag, you are free to use them in a rifle of that nature(Featureless)...meaning if that flash hider was not there, that 20rnd mag is just fine.

MasterYong
10-21-2009, 12:53 PM
this is not entirely true. the legal/illegal status can be more or less rock solid depending on precedents. every time the court rules on something new, it sets a new precedent. for example, the us supreme court just made a ruling (Melendez-Diaz v. Massachusetts) that may make red light cameras illegal because they violate the 6th amendment. right now they are legal, but this ruling creates a precedent that jeopardizes their legality. A ruling setting a precedent that bullet buttons were legal would further secure their legality, just as a ruling that they are illegal would make them illegal. since there is no precedent on them, they do stand in somewhat of a gray area, as far as I understand it.

additionally, the mag on that M1 looks like a 20 round magazine, not a 10 round magazine

How the heck do speed cameras violate the 6th ammendment??? Weird.

Sorry for the threadjack, I just couldn't ignore that one...

MasterYong
10-21-2009, 12:54 PM
The only thing illegal on the M1A is the flash hider. Assuming you own a preban 20 round mag, you are free to use them in a rifle of that nature(Featureless)...meaning if that flash hider was not there, that 20rnd mag is just fine.

Coulda been a real trick question: if it's a RAW then the FH is OK... :43:

wash
10-21-2009, 2:28 PM
this is not entirely true. the legal/illegal status can be more or less rock solid depending on precedents. every time the court rules on something new, it sets a new precedent. for example, the us supreme court just made a ruling (Melendez-Diaz v. Massachusetts) that may make red light cameras illegal because they violate the 6th amendment. right now they are legal, but this ruling creates a precedent that jeopardizes their legality. A ruling setting a precedent that bullet buttons were legal would further secure their legality, just as a ruling that they are illegal would make them illegal. since there is no precedent on them, they do stand in somewhat of a gray area, as far as I understand it.

additionally, the mag on that M1 looks like a 20 round magazine, not a 10 round magazine
Yes, so an un-modified SKS is probably the best choice for that.

It reminds me of my patent. The first step was filing it, then it was rejected, amended, etc., finally accepted and issued. That's where it sits now, I've got a nice plaque with my name on and that feels good but the invention has never been manufactured or sold. Once it's manufactured that will be cool but if I really want to go through the whole invention process I'll have to get sued or sue someone who copies it.

Calhunter380
10-21-2009, 7:49 PM
OP- Check out Sierra Arms, used to be Sierra Sports on Carpenter Rd. They usually have a decent selection of OLL's to check out and I'm sure will be glad to answer all your questions. I've dealt with them in the past and have been very helpful.

five.five-six
10-21-2009, 7:53 PM
What are my other options?


IDK, airsoft?



if you were paranoid, you could pull the gas tube out of your upper, then you would have a bolt action rifle, you could put the tube back in when you grew a pair

tiko
10-21-2009, 8:05 PM
I shot my BB AR today, a LEO shot next to me walked toward me, pointed at my BB and asked: "Is it a BB?" I said yes, he said that he knew about BB but 99% of cops don't know about it. I asked that will they arrest people who have a BB AR, he said : " Even the cops who don't know about BB will not arrest you because they are so busy on their jobs, thousands of warrants are unserved because lack of cops."

tonelar
10-21-2009, 8:07 PM
Remington 7615 Patrol Rifle

http://world.guns.ru/civil/remington_7615_police.jpg

OP,
Get one of these beauties! They're pump action and take whatever AR mags you have on hand.

http://world.guns.ru/civil/remington_7615_police1.jpg

sevensix2x51
10-21-2009, 8:10 PM
Remington 7615 Patrol Rifle

http://world.guns.ru/civil/remington_7615_police.jpg

mini-14? my vote for extremely legal ar-15....