PDA

View Full Version : Could the Saiga-12 be the greatest shotgun of all time?


slagusmc
08-25-2009, 6:19 PM
I think the converted Saiga 12 may be the greatest zombie killer of all time. I recently bought a converted saiga 12 (Either PK or PRK did the conversion) and I think it is my favorite weapons system for just having fun. It has been completely reliable with even the cheapest birdshot, ergonomics work for me, and its capacity is mindblowing...up to a 30rd drum if you live in a free state, although I think the 20rd drum is the best compromise. I bought the saiga as a fun gun, thinking that the Benelli M1-90 was gonna stay my primary HD weapon, but the saiga is now my number one! Even though its not buttery smooth like my benelli, its a tough gun. So far in my book, it beats out my Benelli, a streetsweeper, and the USAS-12. So what do you guys think of the Saiga-12? Am I crazy or is it just about the most lethal urban weapons designed? And dont pull up pictures of a Pancor Jackhammer or something crazy exotic, be realalistic, the Saiga-12 is a evil mo-fo, if u think u have a better shotgun, lets hear it.

bohoki
08-25-2009, 6:39 PM
i think the saiga is amazing since it can never be declared a dd by the atf since it comes in atf approved

and there is nothing they can do to stop it
e7rBPgBKCyEmtBnRS58gk8

hellraiser
08-25-2009, 6:58 PM
ahhhh nothing better then some good saiga 12 videos.....

JUNGALIST
08-25-2009, 7:07 PM
There's the AA-12 and the Benelli-M4 w/ghost rings but the Saiga is definitely not to be messed with.

Cheap and 12-gauge reliability make it a good combo indeed!

Rob454
08-25-2009, 7:16 PM
I like the saiga 12. In fact i like it so much its my next gun on the list.

aippi
08-25-2009, 7:22 PM
Ask that question after it has been around 50+ years and still runs like new. Time will tell a lot.

audiophil2
08-25-2009, 7:40 PM
As soon as I shot my Saiga 12 10 years ago I knew I was holding the best shotgun ever made. I had so many looks and questions from guys on the firing line and even got to swap it for time with some dealer sample potato diggers and M16s in Illinois of all places.

JeffM
08-26-2009, 1:19 AM
I might as well ask this here-I've noticed there are quite a few FFL's in CA which won't touch S-12 transfers. Why is this? I wouldn't mind picking up a plain old S-12 with fixed stock and mag lock'd mag, but if some FFL's are afraid to transfer them, then it makes me afraid to own one.

I'd say it's cause they are p***ies... but that's just me.

Rob454
08-26-2009, 5:13 AM
I might as well ask this here-I've noticed there are quite a few FFL's in CA which won't touch S-12 transfers. Why is this? I wouldn't mind picking up a plain old S-12 with fixed stock and mag lock'd mag, but if some FFL's are afraid to transfer them, then it makes me afraid to own one.
SOME FFLs are scared of their own shadow and they're afraid the big bad DOJ wolf if gonna come and huff and puff and blow their house down.
Some people are not willing to risk their lively hood for a 600$ shotgun. ( looking at it from their perspective)I cant say that i blame them but if they simply would get up to date on the laws they would see that they can in fact transfer these legally. Now depending on how lazy or hardworking or smart or wiling to do it is whats gonna make up their minds. Some simply think anything with a pistol grip is illegal.

Caseless
08-26-2009, 11:10 AM
the most lethal urban weapons designed?
Nope, range is too short outside of your house. Use it indoors for best effects.

Whatever happened to the South African MAG-7?
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh20-e.htm
SOG sold them briefly.

Argonaut
08-26-2009, 11:27 AM
This thread is spoken like a bunch of young guys that have never seen quality....."Best shotgun of all time"......These kids have never run a pre war Winchester M12. The Sagas are fun but have never been an issue weapon in any military. like a M97, M12 or even an 870. There is little tactical advantage to high rate poorly controlled sustained fire....We use mini guns but only at range and from a mount. They have never seen a young soldier empty his M4 with one trigger pull the first time he is in combat and not even realize that it is empty....then swear that the gun jammed and he couldn't fire it any more. That is one reason that most US combat rifles are set at a 3 shot burst these days. The gun is only a tool that is effective when used by well trained and experienced minds.

blackberg
08-26-2009, 11:31 AM
This thread is spoken like a bunch of young guys that have never seen quality....."Best shotgun of all time"......These kids have never run a pre war Winchester M12. The Sagas are fun but have never been an issue weapon in any military. like a M97, M12 or even an 870. There is little tactical advantage to high rate poorly controlled sustained fire....We use mini guns but only at range and from a mount. They have never seen a young soldier empty his M4 with one trigger pull the first time he is in combat and not even realize that it is empty....then swear that the gun jamed and he couldn't fire it any more. That is one reason that most US combat rifles are set at a 3 shot burst these days.

umm, dont the russians use it? one of the issues that many had was they used military barrels with 2 holes in the civilian models with 4.

-bb

Argonaut
08-26-2009, 1:15 PM
They are a gun made up for sales to the American public using the Kalashnikov system originally to beat the assault gun laws

audiophil2
08-26-2009, 1:37 PM
When the S12 first came out a few gun rags reviewed them. The testers all thought the gun was great and even recommended it for new clay shooters due to its simplicity, low cost, and accuracy.
It's built closely on the AK design which is unarguably the best combat rifle ever made.
Sure it's not the highest quality shotgun ever made but we are not looking for quality in this thread. We are looking for best defensive gun. A family trained on the Ak platform in rifle and shotgun along with the Glock platform would be the best combo in my opinion. The best part is all three guns can be had for $1800 or so per person. The savings could be spent on training and ammo.

Black Majik
08-26-2009, 2:02 PM
Best shotgun of all time... to the Saiga 12?

Sorry, but I'd have to give it to either the Winchester Model 12, the Remington 870 or even the Mossberg 590A1.

Argonaut
08-26-2009, 2:15 PM
The title of the thread is "best shotgun of all time" Black Majik has it right. Maby the Browning A5 should be in there but how can anyone argue with the M12?

mvpatriot
08-26-2009, 2:16 PM
I love my s12 so much I bought another one

Juggernaut_S12
08-26-2009, 2:20 PM
Try reloading any bellyfeeder under stress vs Rock and Lock of an S12....

It is the better platform... Emotional attachment to any weapons platform is unhealthy....

If something better than an S12 comes along... I'll pick it up without hesitation... Right now... Saiga has all other shottys "Dead to Rights"....

EBR Works
08-26-2009, 2:34 PM
I have an S-12 and I love it, no question. However, in a HD situation, I'll be grabbing my Mossberg 590 because of the stupid locked mag on my S-12. As to loading a belly feeder under stress, open the bolt and turn the weapon 90 degrees counter clockwise. Drop in one round through the ejection port and chamber it...ready to go.

Safonator
08-26-2009, 10:26 PM
SPAS 12 anyone? I wish i still had it.

riceonmaisok
08-27-2009, 12:18 AM
I would love my S12 that much more if it didn't have the maglock... but still fun and very realible...

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 9:14 AM
This thread is spoken like a bunch of young guys that have never seen quality....."Best shotgun of all time"......These kids have never run a pre war Winchester M12. The Sagas are fun but have never been an issue weapon in any military. like a M97, M12 or even an 870. There is little tactical advantage to high rate poorly controlled sustained fire....We use mini guns but only at range and from a mount. They have never seen a young soldier empty his M4 with one trigger pull the first time he is in combat and not even realize that it is empty....then swear that the gun jammed and he couldn't fire it any more. That is one reason that most US combat rifles are set at a 3 shot burst these days. The gun is only a tool that is effective when used by well trained and experienced minds.

Thank you for stating the truth. The youth of America was sold Obama, so why not the Saiga 12? Sure, it's a "fun" gun and look mom, it has a magazine! The greatest shotgun of all time? No way!

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 9:20 AM
Thank you for stating the truth. The youth of America was sold Obama, so why not the Saiga 12? Sure, it's a "fun" gun and look mom, it has a magazine! The greatest shotgun of all time? No way!
This is the most ignorant statement I have EVER read.. I understand there are limitations in California...

Have you ever RUN a Saiga 12????
It's a game changer.... It does everything your Fudd gun can do, only better...

I suggest you get some trigger time before making such an uneducated statement....

Please tell me where my saiga is limited or lesser than your fudd gun...
How about some EDUCATED debate vs smack talk!!!!

BTW.. Obama LIKES you Fudd gun... and FEARS the Saiga....

The Saiga is the best option out there for anyone looking for a fighting shotgun....
Use a Fudd gun to bust clay...

Semper Fi!

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 9:45 AM
This is the most ignorant statement I have EVER read.. I understand there are limitations in California...

Have you ever RUN a Saiga 12????
It's a game changer.... It does everything your Fudd gun can do, only better...

I suggest you get some trigger time before making such an uneducated statement....

Please tell me where my saiga is limited or lesser than your fudd gun...
How about some EDUCATED debate vs smack talk!!!!

BTW.. Obama LIKES you Fudd gun... and FEARS the Saiga....

Semper Fi!

Yes, you're right. I'm just an ignorant, uneducated buffoon that's never shot anything as great as a Saiga 12. The Saiga is just the greatest gift that the almighty ever passed down upon mankind.

Now that I've emptied your "insult gun" myself, why don't you tell ME why it's the greatest shotgun ever manufactured? What does it do BETTER than ANY other shotgun that exists now, or has ever existed throughout history?

Argonaut
08-27-2009, 9:49 AM
I was "running" selective fire shotguns that were built in the mid 70's by entrepreneurs trying to sell them to the military. They were fun but ineffective. They were heavy, the amo was heavy and short range. We have the best equipped military in the world. Shotguns have a role in the field but only when backed up by riflemen. An M4 does the best of all worlds. For the weight of a high capacity shotgun you can carry an M4 with a M203 launcher and ammo. Even the Wonderful MK19 only has a sustained rate of fire of 40RPM and requires a 4 man squad to operate.

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 9:56 AM
Quoting a friend of mine.....

I think the future of combat shotgunning is the Saiga. Just as the 1911 crowd bemoaned the advent of that silly-looking "plastic" pistol from Austria back in the early 1990s, I see the same resistance from the traditional “tactical” shotgun venues in the USA. These folks often get so wrapped up around the tool that they forget what the mission is, and thus never notice a newer and often better tool.

I remember the hey-day of Heckler and Koch, when every SWT unit was using some derivative of the MP5. With the HK package came the Benelli Super 90. And for many years, the Super 90 lead the way in combat shotgun development. Trailing it were the 1100/1187, the 870, and to a lesser degree, the Mossbergs. No other shotguns are as widely adopted as these. But all the traditional shotguns out there, from the 870 to the Benelli, are simply sports guns reworked for tactical use. All of these have deficiencies as fighting shotguns. Being sporting guns modified for police/military use, they do not share the desirable characteristics of modern combat rifles.

One can argue that they are sufficient and that they will work. Sure...so will a double-barreled shotgun, a five shot revolver, or a lever action rifle. But you see few of those as first choices today except in regions where the prevailing government denies its subjects their basic civil rights (but that is another issue).

The Saiga is different. The Saiga was developed from a proven combat weapon design to be a combat weapon. Shooting birds and bunnies was not the focus, and you can see Kalashnikov fingerprints all over the weapon. Semi-auto, box magazine-fed, with the same handling characteristics as the ubiquitous Kalashnikov rifle, it looks and feels like a fighting weapon.

The Saiga shotgun is influencing certain changes in the so-called “tactical” shotgun world. While Saigas have seen limited use in the competitive shooting world for several years, their use in police, military, or armed civilian worlds is almost unknown. This will change. We see today how our Close Range Gunfighting, Force On Force, and Kalashnikov programs have changed things, and are being emulated by others. Back in 2000, people were still arguing about Weaver versus Isosceles for heavens sake. Today they are copying what we are doing and even the stodgiest dinosaur school is grudgingly taking a little shuffle step off the x and admitting that a little force on force is OK. And even gun trainers who slept with their M4 rifles are admitting that the AK-47 is not so bad.

The use of the Saiga shotgun for “combat uses” will likewise be adopted.

The Saiga has the potential of becoming the Glock of the shotgun world. Eventually, someone here in the USA will figure it out and reverse-engineer an all US-made Saiga shotgun (as well as probably an AK), but that eventuality is far off.

The Saiga has its idiosyncrasies in handling, but the consensus of those who try it is that it "kicks a little more than a 7.62x39". Then they ask where they can get one. The only things that can stop this are the production capability of the Russians, the importing capability of the Americans, or legal problems created by our ever-beloved “nanny” government. None of these seem likely...at least not in the near future.

We presently have a dozen Kalashnikov Rifles. I don't need that many, but my training company does. Since I have seen the Saiga 12 and worked with it, I plan to accumulate as many of these as it would take to equip a training class. The state of the art today is the Saiga 12. Our goal is to develop a combat training program worthy of this fine tool that will be miles ahead of current “tactical shotgun” doctrine.

WHY THE SAIGA - ADVANTAGES

One might ask why we select the Saiga shotgun over the other available systems today. The same question can be asked, I suppose, why we choose the Kalashnikov Rifle over other available designs such as America’s favorite rifle, the M4 series. We chose the Saiga 12 because of the same reasons we chose the Kalashnikov Rifle.

This is a far better shotgun than any other I have worked with. If I had a choice between a Saiga and a Benelli, I'd go Saiga hands down. It is the only purpose-designed fighting shotgun available today. Everything else...even the Benelli (that is what the engineers at Benelli Italy told me) is a "sporting" weapon modified for police/military use.

When you think of the Saiga, think of a shotgun with all the typical characteristics of a shotgun, yet with the same exact manual of arms as your Kalashnikov!! One weapon system to learn, and a simplicity of operation suitable for cavemen.

As it comes, thanks to our beloved government regulations, it needs to have its testicles reattached (they were removed so it could be imported as a sporting gun). Sorry for the analogy, but I find the entire sporting discussion beyond the silly. Even though the Second Amendment is about shooting tyrants and not ducks, the Saiga shotguns must be brought into the country in a “sporting configuration”

The addition of a Tapco G-2 Trigger Pack and the relocation of the trigger guard forward to facilitate the addition of a pistol grip are necessary. As is the subsequent change to a regular AK butt stock.

They come with 19” or 22” barrels. You can leave them as is, or (as I would recommend) chop them to barely legal 18.5" long.

The main advantage of the Saiga is the magazine feed. No longer do you have to fumble with single rounds of buckshot. You can load a full magazine. The complicated “shoot-one-load one” process that so complicates the manual of arms of the traditional tube-fed shotgun is a moot point for the Saiga. Instead, you shoot it. When it stops, reload it like your Kalashnikov Rifle. Caveman simple.

While I am still unconvinced about the utility of the mid-fight change to slugs, it is noteworthy that conducting this maneuver with a Saiga is as simple as executing the speed load which some guys teach for the AK.

The Saiga will be best equipped with a folding stock of one sort or another. I have seen Saiga 12s equipped with AK-100 stocks in Europe and these are very cool. I will have to talk Jim Fuller into doing the extra work on one of my Saigas. If not possible, a Tromix or ACE folder will work fine.

Why the folder? Because I like to carry my weapons with me...in my car...in my rucksack. A folder makes it far easier to do this than lugging a rifle case around with you. If you do not feel a need for this, you can certainly add a simple AK fixed stock (PLEASE...do not put M4 stuff on your Saiga).

On recoil...I will not lie to you and tell you there is no recoil. Any instructor that says that is not being honest. Certainly, if you weigh in at 300 pounds, and are shooting "low recoil" stuff you can shoot the shotgun from a one-handed bullseye stance if you want. The 12 gauge shotgun is not for frail folks. However, the Saiga feels to me much like shooting a 7.62x39 Kalashnikov. The 20 gauge is quite pleasant.

For those who want a lighter feel, they also make a 20 gauge, or even a .410 gauge, which at the ranges shotguns will most likely be used, will do just fine.

If you are in the market for a semi-auto shotgun, take a long hard serious look at the Saiga before you drop the same money (or far more money) on a Benelli, or 11-87, or any other converted sports gun.

Gabe Suarez
Prescott, AZ

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 10:02 AM
And by comparing Saiga shooters to Obama voters.. you were trolling for a fight,No????

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 10:20 AM
I was "running" selective fire shotguns that were built in the mid 70's by entrepreneurs trying to sell them to the military. They were fun but ineffective. They were heavy, the amo was heavy and short range. We have the best equipped military in the world. Shotguns have a role in the field but only when backed up by riflemen. An M4 does the best of all worlds. For the weight of a high capacity shotgun you can carry an M4 with a M203 launcher and ammo. Even the Wonderful MK19 only has a sustained rate of fire of 40RPM and requires a 4 man squad to operate.

Respectfully... the saiga weighs little more than a standard AK with the 1.6 mil receiver...
I have never run a select fire Saiga... don't see the need for FA with a shotty... Still, The non select fire Saiga would be the dominant weapon in a QCB scenario...

Tom Cole made a legendary FA S-12 called "The Beast"..
Not very practical... but it looks fun!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaLLj-XbQRY

Izhmash factory video on the Saiga 12.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XDNvSXP8W0

Argonaut
08-27-2009, 10:35 AM
That is why it is not used by any military or police force in the world..........

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 10:52 AM
That is why it is not used by any military or police force in the world..........
or it could be the long standing avoidance of using Com Block weapons....

Do this with your fudd gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jugmbARIVtM

I would pay to see someone tell these guys to put down their range toys.

http://www.gun-world.net/russain/kalash/saiga/s12.jpg
http://www.gun-world.net/russain/kalash/saiga/sp-12k.jpg
http://www.gun-world.net/russain/kalash/saiga/16.jpg
http://www.gun-world.net/russain/kalash/saiga/photo038.jpg
http://www.gun-world.net/russain/kalash/saiga/photo032.jpg
http://www.gun-world.net/russain/kalash/saiga/photo036.jpg

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 10:55 AM
http://www.gun-world.net/russain/kalash/saiga/photo039.jpg
http://www.gun-world.net/russain/kalash/saiga/14a.jpg
http://www.gun-world.net/russain/kalash/saiga/1407017.jpg

My Personal Saiga 12
This is... in every way... a fighting gun..... not even a match gun... a fighting gun.....
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs123.snc1/5320_1089024710786_1381519105_30198812_6426240_n.j pg
Ain't no "Safe Queen"....

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 11:02 AM
And by comparing Saiga shooters to Obama voters.. you were trolling for a fight,No????

Nobody is trying to bash Saiga shooters. They can shoot whatever they please, I among many others have fought for that right. Making a blanket statement that the Saiga 12 is the greatest shotgun in the history of mankind is just that; a blanket statement.

Do you deny that people had the wool pulled over their eyes with Obama? The media listed him as the messiah and the saviour. People are doing the same thing with the Saiga 12. Young minds are very gullible when it comes to the media. Just print it and they'll believe it, especially in today's world of technology and the Internet. Nobody knows who the people are that write the raving reviews on the Internet, but by golly it must be true because I read it! Even you have to resort to quoting "your friend". Who is this guy and who gave him credibility besides you?

I never said that the Saiga 12 wasn't a good gun, but as far as being the best ever? Show me proof.

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 11:07 AM
My bad....
Gabe Suarez... owns and operates Suarez International..

http://www.suarezinternational.com/tech.html

I have founded my gravitation ito the saiga not by what I have read on a forum.... but by SHOOTING!!!

And I have in every way, been showing you "proof"....

Nothing beats trigger time for that, though....

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 11:12 AM
One question:
What does it do better than any other shotgun ever produced?

Argonaut
08-27-2009, 11:22 AM
Well Stated AgentAK.......There are a lot of fun guns that are not the best....or most useful....

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 11:23 AM
One question:
What does it do better than any other shotgun ever produced?

Outside of Cali?
Off the top of my head?.....
Fastest reload time of any gun out there..Hands down!
No fumbling with loose shells.. (A definite tactical advantage over a side saddle, No? you can Rock and lock with 5,8, 10, 12 and now even 20 rounds with the same amount of motion you use to reload a single round in a belly feeder)
Simplicity in it's manual of arms.
Rock Solid rugged AK reliability and durability.

Sentimentalists Compare S12 to a pump-action tube feeder is like comparing a 1911 to an SAA. But, then again, I'm sure when the 1911 was new, there were a bunch of codgers saying they would rather keep their SAAs.

Obviously the bashers are just not that knowledgeable. Go to any competition or tactical training class and see how well pump shotguns fair against S12's.

It's not even close, you can deliver more rounds, more accurately. If you have to reload the performance gap is even more obvious.

Only a fool would take a 6 shot pump gun over a 8 shot semiauto in a gunfight.

The better auto loaders out there are fine weapons. However, reloading is still a weak point and my S12 has a simple, robust action as opposed to some that have o-rings, or complicated mechanisms.

Did you watch the videos??

Barbarossa
08-27-2009, 11:26 AM
I've never had the opportunity to handle a saiga-12, so take this with a grain of salt.

I know my pump gun will always go bang. 15 years of beating the hell out of my rusty 870 I've never had a misfeed, misfire, of FTE.

I've dropped my gun into 2 feet of water and mud , and shot it all day.

Is my 870 the best shotgun ever? I don't know.

What I do know is that it has always been 100% reliable for me. I've been goose hunting in -10*F weather when gas operated guns are jamming because the o-rings in them are freezing up.

I also take offense to you throwing the term "fudd gun" around. Do you personally have something against people who hunt? Or is the only real gun one that is worthless except as a safe queen?

Troll.

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 11:27 AM
Are you really so naive as to think that the Saiga is the only magazine fed shotgun ever produced? This is your response?

"Fastest reload time of any gun out there..Hands down!
No fumbling with loose shells.. (A definite tactical advantage over a side saddle, No? you can Rock and lock with 5,8, 10, 12 and now wven 20 rounds with the same amount of motion you use to reload a single round in a belly feeder)"

This is what makes the greatest shotgun ever produced?

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 11:36 AM
Are you really so naive as to think that the Saiga is the only magazine fed shotgun ever produced? This is your response?

"Fastest reload time of any gun out there..Hands down!
No fumbling with loose shells.. (A definite tactical advantage over a side saddle, No? you can Rock and lock with 5,8, 10, 12 and now wven 20 rounds with the same amount of motion you use to reload a single round in a belly feeder)"

This is what makes the greatest shotgun ever produced?

OK.. you are clinging to ONE aspect of the weapon out of MANY stated....

The simple AK action.... not to mention it's as easy to clear a squib as it is with a pump...

How about you tell me a gun that is better...

Did not mean to offend any hunters out there... but I'm talking about QCB or HD applications...

No "O" rings to jam on a saiga... I live in Michigan... so no need to go into operating a weapon in the cold... the Saiga outperforms them all....

I shot an 870 for years... so I am familiar with the weapon... I have great love for it...
But when things go bump in the night... I'm reachin' for my Saiga!

All I'm saying is get some trigger time BEFORE you bash it....

The ONLY negative I have seen with the saiga is a short break in time...

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 11:53 AM
Okay, you're right. I just used ONE of your examples.

How about this?
"The simple AK action.... not to mention it's as easy to clear a squib as it is with a pump..."

You say "simple AK action." What's more simple than a pump? And you also say that it's as easy to clear a squib as it is with a pump. Easy as, but not better than?

Why should I have to tell you what's better? All I asked is WHY the Saiga is the best shotgun ever manufactured?

You posted pics of Russian military and police training with them. The Russians also had a love for the Lada automobile, but that doesn't make it the best automobile ever manufactured.

Here's a couple of box magazine fed pumps for sale in the marketplace. I know they're pumps and it takes a little more effort and coordination to use, but they can be reloaded as fast as a Saiga.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=207248&highlight=sidewinder

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=176176&highlight=sidewinder

Argonaut
08-27-2009, 11:57 AM
Most of us (and organizations) test everything. (when was the last time you saw a SPAS 12 in use) Manufacturers set up those kind of photo shoots, give the guys the clothes to publicise there wares. Makes for slick brochures. Most go back to the tried and true. All that firepower and at 100 yards a simple 223 will eliminate all of them.....one shot at a time. The rural CHP guys carry 2 long weapons, a Mini 14 and an 870. (this guy must be a salesman for Saiga)

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 12:00 PM
Most of us (and organizations) test everything. (when was the last time you saw a SPAS 12 in use) Manufacturers set up those kind of photo shoots, give the guys the clothes to publicise there wares. Makes for slick brochures. Most go back to the tried and true. All that firepower and at 100 yards a simple 223 will eliminate all of them.....one shot at a time. The rural CHP guys carry 2 long weapons, a Mini 14 and an 870. (this guy must be a salesman for Saiga)

No, a typical fanboy is all. I have nothing against a Saiga shotgun. It's fun to shoot, but being the best ever? Convince me.

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 12:02 PM
again, you have a more stable shot with the Saiga....
and a faster follow up... More rounds on target faster is better IMHO..

No "Push Pull" to mess with your stability either..

Try clearing a Remington 1100 with a squib....
clear as easy as a pump and still have semi auto... is this not an advantage???

a good video to check out.... covers all the advantages and disadvantages of ALL 4 shotgun generations...
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1671&HS=1

Sad, we are sooo ingrained in modern technique... something "New" just like the glock freaked everybody out..
But a Glock will NEVER be as reliable as a wheelgun....

Edit:Again... get some trigger time on a Saiga BEFORE you write it off... At least I have extensively shot the 870, and 1100..
I'm not trying to insult your emotional attachment to your favorite weapon...
To me, they are simply tools... I will use the best tool for the job... In my experiences, that is the Saiga 12..

I am not talking about rifles.. I'm talking about the shotgun in the roll of a shotgun...
where a rifle round would over penetrate.......

thedrickel
08-27-2009, 12:08 PM
One question:
What does it do better than any other shotgun ever produced?

Spray lead at a high rate of fire.

/thread

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 12:11 PM
Spray lead at a high rate of fire.

/thread

And there's never been another gun in the history of man that could accomplish this?

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 12:13 PM
again, you have a more stable shot with the Saiga....
and a faster follow up... More rounds on target faster is better IMHO..

No "Push Pull" to mess with your stability either..

Try clearing a Remington 1100 with a squib....
clear as easy as a pump and still have semi auto... is this not an advantage???

a good video to check out.... covers all the advantages and disadvantages of ALL 4 shotgun generations...
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1671&HS=1

Sad, we are sooo ingrained in modern technique... something "New" just like the glock freaked everybody out..
But a Glock will NEVER be as reliable as a wheelgun....

Edit:Again... get some trigger time on a Saiga BEFORE you write it off... At least I have extensively shot the 870, and 1100..
I'm not trying to insult your emotional attachment to your favorite weapon...
To me, they are simply tools... I will use the best tool for the job... In my experiences, that is the Saiga 12..

I am not talking about rifles.. I'm talking about the shotgun in the roll of a shotgun...
where a rifle round would over penetrate.......

HAHAHA! What's "NEW" here?

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 12:16 PM
simple.. you brought up rifles... rifles are NOT shotguns...
You would be surprised at how many people DO not GRASP that concept....

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 12:19 PM
Where am I talking about rifles?
And what's so new about a gas operated, box magazine fed shotgun?

I'll say it once again; the Saiga 12 is a nice shotgun, but what makes it the best ever?

scc1909
08-27-2009, 12:23 PM
Holy crap...why had I never heard of this home intruder perforator!? :eek:

I have a very fun tacticalled-up 870 that is an absolute blast to play with, but an S12 just got chalked in up near the top of my list. Of course, the list is somewhat long, so I feel like Richard Hammond on TopGear trying to paste a new fast time up near the top. :43:

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 12:25 PM
Where am I talking about rifles?
And what's so new about a gas operated, box magazine fed shotgun?

I'll say it once again; the Saiga 12 is a nice shotgun, but what makes it the best ever?
You sound like a broken record... I gave given you TONS of info to digest....

Why is it not??? tell me a shotgun that can out preform the saiga??

I have at least provided HONEST discussion and opinion...

all this aside.. the "best" shotgun is the one you are most proficient with...

fusionstar
08-27-2009, 12:26 PM
Yes the saiga 12 is a fine shotgun. However

1. stop comparing different types of shotguns to one another. Its ridiculous.
Look at my stock porche, it goes faster than your stock daewoo. well Duhh.


Of course a detachable box magazine fed semi-auto shotgun is going to have more firepower than a pump gun.

Of course a detachable box magazine fed semi-auto shotgun is going to have more firepower than a magazine tube fed semi-auto shotgun.

Compare semi-auto detachable box magazine shotguns to other semi-auto detachable box magazine shotguns



ITS THAT SIMPLE.

Whats with people and being brand myopic. Thinking like this "If its not a saiga 12, its junk" is absolutely juvenile.

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 12:28 PM
I like the VEPR 12 too!!!! I just can't get one here!!
Never said other shottys were junk...

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 12:29 PM
One more thing and only because you brought up "stability." Having the capability to throw lead down range at an accelerated rate does not equate to stability. You're now entering the realm of the "one shot, one kill" guys.

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 12:32 PM
One more thing and only because you brought up "stability." Having the capability to throw lead down range at an accelerated rate does not equate to stability. You're now entering the realm of the "one shot, one kill" guys.
As a Marine... it never crossed my mind.....
It's about the ability to get on target faste... never mind....

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 12:33 PM
Yes the saiga 12 is a fine shotgun. However

1. stop comparing different types of shotguns to one another. Its ridiculous.
Look at my stock porche, it goes faster than your stock daewoo. well Duhh.


Of course a detachable box magazine fed semi-auto shotgun is going to have more firepower than a pump gun.

Of course a detachable box magazine fed semi-auto shotgun is going to have more firepower than a magazine tube fed semi-auto shotgun.

Compare semi-auto detachable box magazine shotguns to other semi-auto detachable box magazine shotguns



ITS THAT SIMPLE.

Whats with people and being brand myopic. Thinking like this "If its not a saiga 12, its junk" is absolutely juvenile.

I only brought the box magazine fed pumps into the discussion because one of the examples given was that tube fed pump shotguns were slower to load.

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 12:38 PM
As a Marine... it never crossed my mind.....:iamwithstupid:
It's about the ability to get on target faste... never mind....

Well, I watched the video of you shooting your Saiga 12 and if stability was your primary concern, I would recommend you take a combat shotgun training course. This would add copious stability verses relying solely on the firearm.

PEBKAC
08-27-2009, 12:38 PM
Greatest shotgun ever is a blanket statement so said greatest shotgun ever has to have the greatest blanket application. Blanket application includes hunting, clays, etc. as well as HD, combat, 3-gun, etc. For that, I would have to say the Saiga cannot possibly be the greatest of all time because it is significantly more inconvenient to do clays with it (given the "load only 2 rounds" requirement) as opposed to other shotguns, hence it cannot be the greatest of all time due lack of greatest blanket application.

Greatest combat shotgun of all time, however, is debatable. Don't have to consider sporting applications for that.

I would personally argue the M4 is better for combat, and thus more likely to be the greatest combat shotgun of all time. It's MORE overbuilt, I worry not about clonking it against someone or something and having dents in the receiver cause problems because it's too thick to dent. It has a better gas system than the S12 because it is just pistons, but it's auto-regulating as well without being more complex on a basic mechanical level. Also it has a sane mounting system (no, dovetail mounts are not "sane") for optics out of the box. Further, try field stripping your Saiga in 30 seconds flat with just the charging handle as a tool. No detachable mags, but I'd rather reload slightly slower at a constant rate than reload faster until I run out of loaded mags.

Let's not forget that the M4 doesn't have the "reload on closed bolt" issue and associated failure to feeds the S12 reportedly has. And no reliability issues with regards to magazine inconsistency that are a plague to any detachable magazine fed weapon.

Don't get me wrong, the S12 is a pretty great combat shotgun. Just not the greatest. More than sufficient? Most certainly. Greatest? Nope.

Now I will willingly admit that the S12 is probably the most awesome shotgun of all time. As one of the few that has been successfully modified to be belt fed (!) it's pretty much alone...:D

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 12:55 PM
Well, I watched the video of you shooting your Saiga 12 and if stability was your primary concern, I would recommend you take a combat shotgun training course. This would add copious stability verses relying solely on the firearm.

Right... don't confuse beta testing drums and mags with serious shooting....

Fine job on being an internet troll, though!!!!

If it was this one on youtube.... it's only my gun.. Gruven is shooting...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M14-r7vQk3k
You seem to say a lot without having all the facts.... seems to be the case here as well...

fusionstar
08-27-2009, 12:56 PM
I only brought the box magazine fed pumps into the discussion because one of the examples given was that tube fed pump shotguns were slower to load.

I didnt quote you :D

Or anybody as a matter of fact, just saying stop comparing apples to oranges.


Improvements in technology, in thermal plastics, and metallurgy will spring new, better, and lighter weapons.

But I must say.. that 30rd saiga 12 video was cool. I wouldn't mind having that.

Corbin
08-27-2009, 1:44 PM
There's always going to be people that prefer one thing over another. Everything has positive and negative issues they have to deal with. I can't imagine everyone on the planet ever coming into agreement on what the best rifle, shotgun, movie, car or food is.

Having said that, I'd like to say that since getting my first Saiga 12 in January of this year, I've since sold my Benelli M3 Super 90, two 870s and thinking of selling my 590 Mossberg (but I'll probably keep that). I'm not saying those other shotguns are crap. Far from it!

My Benelli was very fast and light. It pointed great and cycled most ammo reliably (except the really light stuff sometimes caused issues). The 870s were as reliable as they could be. So long as you don't short stroke the action, they perform like champs. I DID have an ejector break on one during a 3 day course once, but that's a common thing with the 870 and it's easy to fix, usually.

There ARE some recent magazines for the S12 that I try to avoid. I really like the AGPs and the Surefires. The MD-20 drums are great too. The Promags......well, not so much. At least in MY experience, which, when it comes down to it, is all I can really give any legitimate comment on.


So is the Saiga 12 the ultimate combat shotgun? For me, yeah it is. Are there things I'd like to change on it? Sure. Like the AK 47, the safety is tough to manipulate if you're shooting from the left shoulder. The "rock and lock" requirement of the mags take some getting used to. The stock sights can be improved on..... and the "sporter" configuration has a terrible trigger pull.

Granted, most of these things can (and often are) cleared up when people convert their Saiga back to how it was intended back in Russia.


Just the view from my particular soapbox. Your view may differ.


Corbin

MRboost
08-27-2009, 1:53 PM
I love my Benelli Super Nova, but in a SHTF situation fumbling with shells in the dark doesn't sound too fun. Picking up my CGW S12 this Saturday. :) I'll let you know what I think of it.

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 1:56 PM
I love my Benelli Super Nova, but in a SHTF situation fumbling with shells in the dark doesn't sound too fun. Picking up my CGW S12 this Saturday. :) I'll let you know what I think of it.
Polish up the trigger or run at least 200 rounds through it...
Break in required in most cases...

lvjeffro
08-27-2009, 2:33 PM
Before I go off, i want to say that remington, mossberg, bennelli etc... are all fine weapons and as we all know require some massaging to make them work they way "We" want them to... Maybe they don't need it but we do it just the same...

As with pretty much all weapons and their owners we have differing ideas about what is best etc... and it is all personal prefrence when talking about top brands etc...; But with the saiga-12 I will have to say that this is not a personal prefrence type of opinion... It is a FACT; made so by the experts in the field of firearms over the course of 60+ years!!!!! These experts say that the AK-47 is the best assult weapon in the world EVER!!!!!!!! So that makes the Saiga-12, also known as an AK-47 12 gauge, the best assult shotgun in the world today...PERIOD!!!

Not my opinion that is expert FACT!!!!!!!!

But best shotgun is a bold statement and as one person pointed out that would include hunting, trap, skeet,clays etc... And the Saiga unfortunately does not operate in these areas as well as other shotguns would... They work great and can be good at everything but they are not the best for all situations...

So
best shotgun= no
Best assult shotgun= No doubt about it...

to the intelligent poster who said that no countries military uses the Saiga-12, I could swear that Russia is a country and that Spetsnaz is a military special forces group... Their SWAT units use them as well... Great information, and a great way to prove your point there genius!!!!!

Then to the other real swift one that said only impressionable young kids who voted for obama like the Saiga...Are you a moron??? I am a 38 year old, college educated, white male who voted for McCain/Palin, and I own a Saiga-12... If 20 year old kids like Obama they are liberals and do not like "evil guns" most likely...Use your gray matter for something more than a hat rack...Kthxbye!!!


major post edit so i did not insult every member of this board...

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 2:41 PM
I find it quite amusing that you had to bring your little friends over from the S-12 board! Thank you so much for doing so and allowing me a good laugh!
Oh, and to the poster above calling me out as uneducated and a moron, it's spelled a-s-s-A-u-l-t!

audiophil2
08-27-2009, 2:47 PM
Nice first post. Looking forward to your second post after you read the rules.
IBTL

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 2:51 PM
Right... don't confuse beta testing drums and mags with serious shooting....

Fine job on being an internet troll, though!!!!

If it was this one on youtube.... it's only my gun.. Gruven is shooting...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M14-r7vQk3k
You seem to say a lot without having all the facts.... seems to be the case here as well...

No, I was referring to the one on your Photobucket that you posted on the other forum as being you.

I'd also like to say for a person who's 17 out of only 20 posts on this board have been to insult me in some way or the other, maybe you should look up the definition of the word troll.

lvjeffro
08-27-2009, 3:01 PM
Oh my god, that's all you had to respond to in my post was the mistake on my spelling...Hey I am a human... I make mistakes...

Man you got me on that one, everything I said was false because I spelled assault wrong... Wow you are the bestest speller evar!!!!!!

I am sad that someone of your lack of intelligence is even around firearms... get into pottery, alot safer for you "special little guys" and much safer for the rest of us not as special as you are...

unusedusername
08-27-2009, 3:02 PM
Compare semi-auto detachable box magazine shotguns to other semi-auto detachable box magazine shotguns




Ummmm.. Maybe this is a dumb question, but do there exist any other 12GA "detachable" box fed shotguns that can be gotten in CA?

The only ones I've heard of are either older ones that are no longer in production, or things that have no BB type solution to make them CA legal.

BTW: I'm not a saiga-12 nut here, just wondering what I should compare it to...

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 3:04 PM
Ummmm.. Maybe this is a dumb question, but do there exist any other 12GA "detachable" box fed shotguns that can be gotten in CA?

The only ones I've heard of are either older ones that are no longer in production, or things that have no BB type solution to make them CA legal.

Red Jacket Firearms will be offering a whole line of Cali Legal Saigas here soon!!!!

lvjeffro
08-27-2009, 3:04 PM
Nice first post. Looking forward to your second post after you read the rules.
IBTL

no, not the infamous IBTL...:sleeping:

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 3:12 PM
No, I was referring to the one on your Photobucket that you posted on the other forum as being you.

I'd also like to say for a person who's 17 out of only 20 posts on this board have been to insult me in some way or the other, maybe you should look up the definition of the word troll.

I thought we were having a discussion....
Sharing and CONTRIBUTING Knowledge...
You are the one who making things personal...
If I were Trolling you... You would know it.... you give yourself far to much credit....

Do we have different opinions?? yes we do...
Have I personally attacked you?? hardly...

Cowboy up there, my friend....
It's simply debating... no more no less...

But, should you choose to make things personal... we can go that route too!!!

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 3:12 PM
Oh my god, that's all you had to respond to in my post was the mistake on my spelling...Hey I am a human... I make mistakes...

Man you got me on that one, everything I said was false because I spelled assault wrong... Wow you are the bestest speller evar!!!!!!

I am sad that someone of your lack of intelligence is even around firearms... get into pottery, alot safer for you "special little guys" and much safer for the rest of us not as special as you are...

HAHAHA! Aren't you just special? I was thinking about sending you a donation for this entertainment, but it's priceless! Yes, I'm a poor uneducated soul that lacks the intelligence to be in your almighty presence. Got any other insults? I truly thank God every day that I was given the opportunity in battle to kill so that you had the right to your free speech. Thank you for using the right so eloquently, it truly warms the heart to see my bloodshed wasn't in vain. I salute you for being all that you can be!

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 3:19 PM
The last time I saw fanboys argue so vehemently about something was whether the PS3 or the XBOX 360 was the greatest.

For the record; I personally own a Saiga 12GA, 20GA and am in negotiations to buy a .410. They're nice little fun guns, but seriously not the best shotgun ever created by man.

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 3:24 PM
Red Jacket Firearms will be offering a whole line of Cali Legal Saigas here soon!!!!

Ahhhh, now it all makes sense! You're here to make a plug!

Juggernaut_S12
08-27-2009, 3:29 PM
Ahhhh, now it all makes sense! You're here to make a plug!

Nah... just here to thank you for your opportunity to kill in Battle for my freedom.....:sleeping:

AgentAK
08-27-2009, 3:34 PM
You're very much welcome!
Maybe my alma mater will do battle with your illustrious M again soon also!

Sumo99
08-27-2009, 4:34 PM
How about the aa12, full auto shotgun? That thing seems pretty kick *****.

professorhard
08-27-2009, 4:36 PM
How about the aa12, full auto shotgun? That thing seems pretty kick *****.

Much better than the s12 but mostly unavailable.

l_Z_l
08-27-2009, 4:48 PM
Much better than the s12 but mostly unavailable.

uh does that mean we're just debating the best shotgun we can get in Kali??

but yea that aa12 seems pretty nice...

unusedusername
08-27-2009, 5:39 PM
Red Jacket Firearms will be offering a whole line of Cali Legal Saigas here soon!!!!

Actually I was asking a different question.

Are there any Cali-legal-able shotguns that are semi-auto and box-magazine fed other then the saiga-12?

I would agree that an AA-12 is a good thing to compare it to, except that an AA-12 is unobtainable by us mere mortals.

PIRATE14
08-27-2009, 5:56 PM
She LIKED IT:43:

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o172/wegoclan/AugustShootBoobCamp293.jpg

Kestryll
08-27-2009, 6:29 PM
I have an appointment.

When I return I am going to read this thread through.
I am going to read the edits as well.
I am NOT going to be forgiving.

If you have been a jackass, rude, insulting or just a dick clean up anything you have going because you WILL be deleted.

Is this clear?

Rustynuts
08-27-2009, 6:56 PM
I'm spoiled as the S-12 is the only shotty I've ever fired being new to the "sport". I modified it myself (with a full proper "conversion") and LOVE IT! Only thing I wish it had was a last round bolt hold open. Some are working on that too. Popping a mag in on a closed bolt can hard.

This can't be had in Cali, but an SBR S-12 would be an ideal home defense weapon. Here's a Tromix modified version with 20-rd drum.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x8/BobAsh_album/F1.jpg


Here's my puny S-12 in comparison! Note I don't live in CA so the folder and PG are fine.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t67/Krustyboomer/familypics004-12.jpg


Also Tromix S-12 HAVE been in combat in Iraq and the love them!

From Tromix Testimonials Page Posted by one of our service men after returning from Iraq, 12/06/2009.

“After having cleared too many houses/rooms to even remember... today if I had to do it alone I would want my Tromix SBS Saiga-12 gauge. It was the one gun I had always wished I had during my tours in Iraq.”

Received by e-mail 9/7/2007

"It has taken some time to write you, as I recently returned from Iraq. First of all, I wanted to thank you. Whether you know it or not, at least 2 of your shotguns are serving in Iraq. I used your shotguns a lot and am working on saving the money to buy one for myself. The 2 we have in country have two nicknames, the "Ambush Buster" and the "VBIED killer" (Vehicle Borne Improvised Explosive Devise = car bomb). I do not know how they were acquired, but having been in the Special Operations community for over 10 years now, I know that new "toys" pop up all the time, and those that work are used quite a bit. Your shotguns work well.

I used your shotguns quite a bit from our helicopters, to engage and destroy insurgent vehicles (multiple 12ga slugs to an engine block do wonders), as well as shoot suspicious roadside boxes, dead dogs, garbage bags, etc.

When we off load from the helos, you shotgun was again an amazing weapon system. Ammo was sometimes difficult to get. I would trade items to Marines to get more ammo. Whenever we did have enough 12ga ammo, we did a lot of good work with those shotguns."

EBR Works
08-28-2009, 3:21 PM
This can't be had in Cali, but an SBR S-12 would be an ideal home defense weapon. Here's a Tromix modified version with 20-rd drum.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x8/BobAsh_album/F1.jpg



That SBS is wild! I sort of went in the same direction with mine without short barrel, folder or drum to satisfy Kali. Damn mag lock!.... :banghead:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/impactco/S12Medium.jpg

stix213
08-28-2009, 4:22 PM
I'm spoiled as the S-12 is the only shotty I've ever fired being new to the "sport". I modified it myself (with a full proper "conversion") and LOVE IT! Only thing I wish it had was a last round bolt hold open. Some are working on that too. Popping a mag in on a closed bolt can hard.

This can't be had in Cali, but an SBR S-12 would be an ideal home defense weapon. Here's a Tromix modified version with 20-rd drum.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x8/BobAsh_album/F1.jpg


Here's my puny S-12 in comparison! Note I don't live in CA so the folder and PG are fine.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t67/Krustyboomer/familypics004-12.jpg


Also Tromix S-12 HAVE been in combat in Iraq and the love them!


LOL that skull face on the charging handle is a nice touch on that top one!

Also, we can have pistol grips on our S12's, we just have to pass on your folder I believe.

The S12 has been on my short list of new firearms to get for a little while, now it might have just popped to the top of the list though. When I want to destroy that clay I want to be able to make 9 more follow up shots in the same time I take 1 with my Mossy 500 damn it!!! Die clay die!! :) I'll work on my actual aim some other time!!!

EBR Works
08-28-2009, 4:46 PM
LOL that skull face on the charging handle is a nice touch on that top one!

Also, we can have pistol grips on our S12's, we just have to pass on your folder I believe.



How did I miss the skull detail, very cool. Damn old eyes!

You can only have one evil feature on a semi-auto, mag fed shotgun in Cali, PG (front and rear PGs count as one feature) or folder. Either way, you have to make the mag "non detachable".

The S-12 with ghost sights is very fun for shooting clays. Put the clay in the circle and you'll hit it every time. I always get funny looks from the traditional shotgun guys!

tophatjones
08-28-2009, 5:11 PM
Best shotgun in the world?

Is it the best bird gun? No
deer? No
clay? No
trap? No
the best for 99.9% HD or SD scenarios? No
Is it a fine wine like Italian shotguns? No
Nor is it made with strict attention to detail, fine steels, or perfect SxS handcrafted balance.

But like Vodka, it is rude, crude, and a ton of fun. For that 0.01% horror SD scenario it is matched by only a few shotguns and only surpassed by MG or some SMG. But these scenarios are completely unrealistic for most all of us.

Now as a game gun, I think there maybe a lot of potential. It is fairly light for such firepower, and it has an ultra quick action with ergos similar to AK. I'd say once someone begins winning matches with the Saiga, it'll blow up in popularity.

P.S. Tromix and other custom guns are like high end Vodkas, very nice but still has bite and not as smooth as fine wine (hand crafted Italian).

EBR Works
08-28-2009, 6:34 PM
Well said..

tankerman
08-28-2009, 9:36 PM
Wow, this is one long pointless pissing match.

Juggernaut_S12
08-28-2009, 11:49 PM
The simple resolution to this is a challenge. set up a course of fire and run the pump gun that he favors through the course and then the S12. Guess who is going to be able to engage more targets, faster?

We know the answer, he doesn't. Sometimes ignorance isn't bliss.

Don't ya dear come back and ask me how to tweak your gun when you get up to speed....

hawk81
08-29-2009, 12:40 AM
It is awesome. It takes 20 and 30 round drumb magazines. It is way more efficient than a street sweeper or any other shotgun. Mine runs flawless. I wish I had bought a bunch of them when B and B guns had them for $179 a piece. If only I had a time machine.

CAL.BAR
08-29-2009, 10:13 AM
SPAS 12 anyone? I wish i still had it.

I do love my SPAS, but it really is too heavy, too complicated and really uncomfortable to shoot over long periods of time. Plus reloading by magazine is unquestionably better than stuffing into a tube. (that's why we don't use tube mags any more for front line combat weapons)

Q
08-29-2009, 3:00 PM
I just ordered my second not to long ago and haven't even shot my first one yet.:D

I want to have them customized to look like these.

S12K
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/saiga12k.jpg
Early Spetsnaz
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/p10100031.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/img0026.jpg

EBR Works
08-29-2009, 3:19 PM
Bring your first one out to Angeles tomorrow and shoot clays with us if it's close by to you.

tankerman
08-29-2009, 6:34 PM
I got a better idea, why don't you show up at the trap, skeet and sporting clays range when the Pot-Shooters are there.........easiest way to find out is for you to put your money where your mouth is, Pot-Shooters will be happy to take all your money. They engage multiple small fast moving targets, not stationary cardboard. I'd love for you to show me how you can dust a clay with ONE shot at 60 yards just before it hits the ground (I bet you couldn't do it with 30 shells).

With all your tough talk, I bet you couldn't hit a seagull and the county dump with your shotgun.
The simple resolution to this is a challenge. set up a course of fire and run the pump gun that he favors through the course and then the S12. Guess who is going to be able to engage more targets, faster?

We know the answer, he doesn't. Sometimes ignorance isn't bliss.

Don't ya dear come back and ask me how to tweak your gun when you get up to speed....

Juggernaut_S12
08-29-2009, 6:46 PM
I got a better idea, why don't you show up at the trap, skeet and sporting clays range when the Pot-Shooters are there.........easiest way to find out is for you to put your money where your mouth is, Pot-Shooters will be happy to take all your money. They engage multiple small fast moving targets, not stationary cardboard. I'd love for you to show me how you can dust a clay with ONE shot at 60 yards just before it hits the ground (I bet you couldn't do it with 30 shells).

With all your tough talk, I bet you couldn't hit a seagull and the county dump with your shotgun.


Have a BLESSED Day!!!:)

Juggernaut_S12
08-29-2009, 6:54 PM
I just ordered my second not to long ago and haven't even shot my first one yet.:D

I want to have them customized to look like these.

S12K
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/saiga12k.jpg
Early Spetsnaz
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/p10100031.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/img0026.jpg

That is a Saiga 12 C... you will be hard pressed to find a smith capable of putting a 100 series side folder on your gun..
I know Jim Fuller from rifle dynamics and Tony tromix have done them... but it takes a ton of work....

you got to the the left side hook installed on the receiver...

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=35020
I agree.... SWEET gun!!!

tankerman
08-29-2009, 8:41 PM
I don't bust clay or paper on fudd ranges...... but you you are ever up for some Force on force... gimme a holler!!!

That's a good one Mall Ninja.

psssniper
08-30-2009, 12:10 AM
Saiga
FTW!! (http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=44278&hl=)

Q
08-30-2009, 12:19 AM
That is a Saiga 12 C... you will be hard pressed to find a smith capable of putting a 100 series side folder on your gun..
I know Jim Fuller from rifle dynamics and Tony tromix have done them... but it takes a ton of work....

you got to the the left side hook installed on the receiver...

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=35020
I agree.... SWEET gun!!!

The Saiga 12 C is the export model I believe..
Putting the stock on is not a problem. I'm sure it's a Saiga 12K. I got the S12 hooks and furniture. ;)
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/22.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/19.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/20.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/21.jpg

Bring your first one out to Angeles tomorrow and shoot clays with us if it's close by to you.
The air is not good, or else I would. Next time your going let me know.

AJAX22
08-30-2009, 12:50 AM
PRKarms can do litterally anything with a S12.... sidefolders, under folders, wood furniture, amd65 clone guns.... ANYTHING

m.s.g.
08-30-2009, 5:27 AM
PRKarms can do litterally anything with a S12.... sidefolders, under folders, wood furniture, amd65 clone guns.... ANYTHING

Could they make me this?
http://www.imfdb.org/images/5/50/Saiga12FireflyVera2.jpg

hammerhands32
08-30-2009, 1:13 PM
Could they make me this?
http://www.imfdb.org/images/5/50/Saiga12FireflyVera2.jpg

LOL, I read through this entire post just to see this.

Juggernaut_S12
08-30-2009, 2:01 PM
*Snip!

alain209
08-30-2009, 2:28 PM
got mine last week. cant wait to testfire it before converting.

joepamjohn
08-30-2009, 7:39 PM
This thread is spoken like a bunch of young guys that have never seen quality....."Best shotgun of all time"......These kids have never run a pre war Winchester M12. The Sagas are fun but have never been an issue weapon in any military. like a M97, M12 or even an 870. There is little tactical advantage to high rate poorly controlled sustained fire....We use mini guns but only at range and from a mount. They have never seen a young soldier empty his M4 with one trigger pull the first time he is in combat and not even realize that it is empty....then swear that the gun jammed and he couldn't fire it any more. That is one reason that most US combat rifles are set at a 3 shot burst these days. The gun is only a tool that is effective when used by well trained and experienced minds.

In my opinion, if John Browning didn't design it, it can't possibly be in "the best shotgun of all times" category.

Argonaut
08-30-2009, 8:14 PM
You can't disagree with John Browning.........most people have no Idea how many guns he designed. He sold many of his patents to people like Remington, Ithaca, Colt, Savage and only kept a few for himself. We did steal a lot of design from Paul Mauser though for the P14. M1903.......

6172crew
08-30-2009, 9:35 PM
I have an appointment.

When I return I am going to read this thread through.
I am going to read the edits as well.
I am NOT going to be forgiving.

If you have been a jackass, rude, insulting or just a dick clean up anything you have going because you WILL be deleted.

Is this clear?

Just in case you guys didn't get a chance to read this the first time.

Juggernaut_S12
08-30-2009, 10:25 PM
Just in case you guys didn't get a chance to read this the first time.


Good point and a good reminder.....

Starting over....

Hello, I'm Andrew Toth AKA Juggernaut, Juggernaut_S12, or Juggs..

I am VERY involved with the saiga community from beta testing all kinds of third party products for Saiga Firearms... From MD-20 Drums to Chaos products and rails, Dinzag arms press on uppers and HG retainers...
I'm pretty well immersed into the Platform....

I came to share what I know about it.. I CAN be very passionate about it as well...

I have shared some VERY GOOD and solid info... I hope some of you can use it... Somehow.. I received negative and perhaps rude statements about the Saiga.... and later about my own shooting abilities... Which I would put up against anyone here...

But I rather discuss the topic the OP stated in great detail without getting attacked by the haters...

Please forgive my retaliatory comments... I will clean them up.. and lets talk about the gun... and not how you can beat everybody at everything...

Looking forward to constructive conversation....

joepamjohn
08-31-2009, 6:43 PM
Never seen or held a Saiga "in the flesh". :eek: I wouldn't mind loading up one of those drums and clearing out some stuff with one though, just to give it a try. :83:

I'm a "Fudd" shooter, (I love that one). I like the more traditional shotties like A-5's, M-12's, M-97's, 870's ,O/U's, etc. Those would qualify on my "greatest all time shotgun" list. The Saiga seems at least to me to be a bit one dimensional and for that reason only I wouldn't buy one. They look cool though.

But hey,to each his own.

MRboost
08-31-2009, 9:37 PM
Welp I got a chance to shoot my S12 this past weekend. I love it, but I don't know if I trust it yet. The promags I bought require fitting, which although it was expected it is a pain. Also after 40 slugs my BHO spring popped off the BHO tab and now I have to reseat it. I had to pull the tab manually by hand the rest of the range trip.

So yes on paper, if everything with your particular s12 works flawlessly and without issue it is a great gun, very little recoil for a shotgun, can put a lot of lead down range quickly and accurately. But so far it has been finnicky, which I know is part of the charm. But if I was to need to draw something in an emergency, I need to know it will work the first time, 50th time, 1000th time flawlessly without any doubt. I feel this way about my benelli.

Obviously being mag fed it is going to be more likely to have some issues that a normal tube fed shotgun will not have, but maybe that is it's drawback as well. I have not written the S12 off and I know that after it breaks in and I get the mags fitted properly it will be a great gun. I have no doubt about that. But not everyone has the time and patience for an S12.

Juggernaut_S12
09-01-2009, 12:34 AM
Welp I got a chance to shoot my S12 this past weekend. I love it, but I don't know if I trust it yet. The promags I bought require fitting, which although it was expected it is a pain. Also after 40 slugs my BHO spring popped off the BHO tab and now I have to reseat it. I had to pull the tab manually by hand the rest of the range trip.

So yes on paper, if everything with your particular s12 works flawlessly and without issue it is a great gun, very little recoil for a shotgun, can put a lot of lead down range quickly and accurately. But so far it has been finnicky, which I know is part of the charm. But if I was to need to draw something in an emergency, I need to know it will work the first time, 50th time, 1000th time flawlessly without any doubt. I feel this way about my benelli.

Obviously being mag fed it is going to be more likely to have some issues that a normal tube fed shotgun will not have, but maybe that is it's drawback as well. I have not written the S12 off and I know that after it breaks in and I get the mags fitted properly it will be a great gun. I have no doubt about that. But not everyone has the time and patience for an S12.
I'm personally not a fan of US MAGS.... FUN FOR RANGE, sure!.....But for "Go" mags... you need yo stick with factory izzy mags...

MDdrums are good... but they are bulky...

Getting the gun as close as possible as you can to it's Russian counterpart..
PISTOL GRIP and trigger moved forward, hammer polished up, Izzy mags...
the reliability fears seem to fade away IMO.....

They DO take some tweaking to break in...

Also... people expect a Ferrari when they take it out of the box.... it's not....
IT'S more like a caterpillar.... an industrial piece of equipment.....
Ugly, built to last.....

slagusmc
09-01-2009, 2:58 PM
As the originator of this thread, i cannot tell you how much fun Ive had reading the continuation of it. To be honest, I posted this thread originally in a post-shooting euphoria, and perhapts I didnt word it as carefully I should have but they joy of reading all these responses tells me that I couldnt have worded it better. I do indeed love my converted Saiga-12 above all my other shotguns, it is the most fun and devastating weapon that I have owned or fired since my days in the Corps...Yes, I did say Corps as in Marine Corps. As some people were putting down other "non-military" people's opinions on the Saiga-12, I just thought Id mention that as a US Marine and a combat veteran, I think the S-12 is awesome and while I totally respect everyones opinions, both civilians and military people respect and enjoy the Saiga. While I was in Iraq, I had a Mossberg 590 that we used for door breaching. It was also excellent for guarding and "questioning" prisoners...the hajiis had no respect for our M-16s but shotguns scared the crap out of them. I am going off on a bunny trail here, so let me return to my topic. No, I wouldnt seriously shoot a trap competition with my S-12 over a nice trap gun, but for an overall "fighting" or "fun" shotgun, Ill take my Saiga 12 anyday over anything in my arsenal and Im rather enormously proud of this incrediblely long thread I started and I have really enjoyed hearing everyone sound off!

joepamjohn
09-01-2009, 5:41 PM
Well it has been an interesting thread for sure. Lot's of "passion" with a few of the members and administrators alike.

Not sure if the real question of your thread was ever answered though since the "greatest shotgun of all time" statement has too many categories.

I think as far as a pure "menacing fighting weapon" category is concerned the Saiga gets the nod for #1

In my opinion there are other shotguns that would get the #1 nod in thier own respective category.

slagusmc
09-01-2009, 7:56 PM
Yeah like i said, I really shouldnt have said or suggested that it was the greatest shotgun of all time, even though for my purposes it is,lol. Even so, I was so impressed by the "passion" that other members vented, Im glad i didnt just say something lame like "The Saiga 12 is a blast to shoot." For my needs it is perfect and while it may not be as ballanced as a beautiful over/under trap gun, you cant deny that it sounds fun trying to shoot skeet with a 30rd drum of 12 gauge,lol.

joepamjohn
09-01-2009, 8:46 PM
Yeah like i said, I really shouldnt have said or suggested that it was the greatest shotgun of all time, even though for my purposes it is,lol. Even so, I was so impressed by the "passion" that other members vented, Im glad i didnt just say something lame like "The Saiga 12 is a blast to shoot." For my needs it is perfect and while it may not be as ballanced as a beautiful over/under trap gun, you cant deny that it sounds fun trying to shoot skeet with a 30rd drum of 12 gauge,lol.

Oh, I'll bet it's fun to shoot.

I mentioned earlier that I would love to load up a drum and do a little "tree pruning". I just love blasting away at stuff. I'm like a big kid with a 10/22 and a brick of .22lr. it ain't gonna last too long.

audiophil2
09-01-2009, 9:04 PM
It's a fun gun to shoot. I guess since I bought mine over a decade ago it was a pretty rare item to be seen with at the range. There were not any mags over 5 rnds available at the time and I paid almost as much for a dozen mags as I did for the shotgun.
I just remember the first time I shot it. I was at a range that had a junk pit that actually allowed folks to throw trash in to shoot. I had water jugs, computer monitors, elmo dolls, etc as my targets. While other guys were poppong off pistol and rifle rounds at all this stuff I let loose 5 rounds of 00 one mag at a time. By the third mag everyone to my right stopped shooting because they were getting pummeled by hot shells. I had to shoot from the rightmost position and let the guys I hit try the gun out. I then got to shoot dealer sample FA guns owned by the "upper" class of the range in turn for letting them shoot my S12.
How many shotguns made would get swapped for free time on a FA 1919, M16, and UZI?

joepamjohn
09-02-2009, 5:35 PM
How many shotguns made would get swapped for free time on a FA 1919, M16, and UZI?

I don't get a big line behind me when I pull out an A5 or 870, sad to say. :o

slagusmc
09-02-2009, 9:11 PM
When U break out the Saiga at the range, everyone stops what they are doing to come see it...half are too scared to fire it, the other half are begging to fire it...Dont shoot at the range if you are trying to maintain a low profile..

Jorge
09-06-2009, 5:40 PM
The saiga 12 is being used more and more in 3gun matches.