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View Full Version : Ideas for the next San Diego Open Carry Event


KylaGWolf
03-01-2009, 4:00 PM
OK since yesterday was such a great time. I am already looking forward to the next one so I will see if anyone else comes up with ideas for the next one.

Nomadd and I were thinking along the lines of doing one down in the Gaslamp Quarter. They are reopening the Old Spaghetti Factory and well figure that even if not everyone goes to the same place to eat....lots of choices downtown it might make a good event. That being said not sure if the logistics for that one would work or not. Anyone got any feelings or other ideas?

nick
03-01-2009, 4:37 PM
Well, as long as it's not too early... I'm actually hoping to attend it, and I live in L.A. County.

CitaDeL
03-01-2009, 6:19 PM
OK since yesterday was such a great time. I am already looking forward to the next one so I will see if anyone else comes up with ideas for the next one.

Nomadd and I were thinking along the lines of doing one down in the Gaslamp Quarter. They are reopening the Old Spaghetti Factory and well figure that even if not everyone goes to the same place to eat....lots of choices downtown it might make a good event. That being said not sure if the logistics for that one would work or not. Anyone got any feelings or other ideas?

Well, as long as it's not too early... I'm actually hoping to attend it, and I live in L.A. County.

how about a Southern California meetup?

I have an answer that will fulfill all of these needs. Frequency. Not too early. Not too late. Close by.

Now that you have a group that has successfully open carried with no ill effects, I would say the next part of the strategy should be to make your events more cellular- smaller gatherings in a broader selection of venues.

Instead of getting 60-80 people together to blow the doors off one community with this newly found liberty, having 4-5 get together for a dinner or casually stroll a public event may have as big an impact- After all, the group did split up once the event got rolling.

This solves several logistical problems- 1) You dont have to drive a long distance if you coordinate with a locally formed group. This also spreads out advocates over a larger portion of the map. 2) Your local group can schedule your event as time permits- you are not locked into an itenerary. 3) You can use these smaller get togethers to introduce non-gunners and other law enforcement jurisdictions to the concepts legality.

shooterfpga
03-01-2009, 6:25 PM
thats actually not a bad idea, citadel. now that the ice has been broken, it would probably be met with more success. smaller, local groups that can get together on a regular basis and open carry, is much easier to plan.

Liberty1
03-01-2009, 9:38 PM
I like the PR that can come from an OC "beach clean-up" or graffiti removal event followed by a lunch. Oh and on a Sunday please.

And NORDYKE, wherefor art thou????????

berto
03-02-2009, 8:32 AM
La Jolla, on Prospect & Girard.

Not sure about the school issue.

FreedomIsNotFree
03-02-2009, 9:04 AM
I like the PR that can come from an OC "beach clean-up" or graffiti removal event followed by a lunch. Oh and on a Sunday please.

And NORDYKE, wherefor art thou????????

Bingo...I recall the pix you posted from the boys back east that did just that. Not only would that highlight open carry as legal, but it will also show that we seek to better our community. I believe it would be much more likely to gain media coverage if we cleaned up a beach, empty lot...etc..etc..

TwitchALot
03-02-2009, 9:09 AM
I like the beach cleanup idea. Those law students gave us some website regarding timing IIRC. Pull, do you have their contact info?

pullnshoot25
03-02-2009, 9:21 AM
I like the beach cleanup idea. Those law students gave us some website regarding timing IIRC. Pull, do you have their contact info?

I didn't get anything from them, we gave them our information though. We shall see whats up with that when they get around to getting a hold of us.

BTF/PTM
03-02-2009, 11:27 AM
Girard Street in La Jolla could be risky, there's that big grass park at the beach down the road that is often packed with picnicking families. But strolling through all the ritzy stores there with our sidearms would be quite amusing :cool:

I like the Spaghetti Factory idea, too.

Liberty1
03-02-2009, 11:42 AM
I didn't get anything from them, we gave them our information though. We shall see whats up with that when they get around to getting a hold of us.


You're in college and you don't know that YOU get her number not the other way round?

:rolleyes:

N6ATF
03-02-2009, 1:10 PM
http://grouptweet.com/ might help in private, semi-spontaneous organization.

However, there is anywhere from an annoying to an incredibly long delay. (5 minutes... to hours, depending on server load)

The test platform me and other news-hounds have been using grouptweet on is http://twitter.com/scandiego

grammaton76
03-02-2009, 1:23 PM
In cells, just try and keep the groups size to a minimum of 5... it seemed to make a big difference with 12031 checks AND public perception from what I observed Saturday.

HunterJim
03-02-2009, 7:47 PM
The Old Spaghetti Factory is open for dinner seven days.

jim

TwitchALot
03-02-2009, 10:47 PM
I didn't get anything from them, we gave them our information though. We shall see whats up with that when they get around to getting a hold of us.

What. You were talking and oogling for five minutes and you didn't their contact information?! I thought they told you the website and you wrote it down!

Weak. :TFH:

KylaGWolf
03-03-2009, 1:05 PM
Grammaton I agree if we go in smaller groups then it seems to work better also stops the one party check and manditory tip too. Besides we can do like we did in PB split up cover more ground too. And maybe on this one you can convince the wife to come too.

Macadelic4
03-03-2009, 3:51 PM
La Jolla, on Prospect & Girard.
Not sure about the school issue.

Maybe this will help:
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg230/Macadelic4/ProspectandGirard-1.jpg

Note that this isn't a definitive list - it's simply what GEarth gives me.


In cells, just try and keep the groups size to a minimum of 5... it seemed to make a big difference with 12031 checks AND public perception from what I observed Saturday.
If everyone keeps track of the number in their group and whether or not they get 12031'd, we can do statistical analysis to find the optimal number of UOCers to travel with so that checks are minimized.

Mulay El Raisuli
03-04-2009, 6:10 AM
The Old Spaghetti Factory is open for dinner seven days.

jim


Then put me down for a downtown UOC event.

The Raisuli


Doesn't NBC 7/39 have their offices downtown?

N6ATF
03-04-2009, 10:03 AM
225 Broadway, glass-enclosed like The Today Show @ Rockefeller Center.

grammaton76
03-04-2009, 1:17 PM
If everyone keeps track of the number in their group and whether or not they get 12031'd, we can do statistical analysis to find the optimal number of UOCers to travel with so that checks are minimized.

Sounds good. Next time I say we develop "squads" with specific destinations.

3 people to go here.
4 people to go there.
5 people to go there.

Don't tag names to the squads until we show up; we had so many folks not show up (my wife was all excited about going until her pinched nerve started acting up on Thurs or so, for example) that we'd end up with under-sized squads.

Try to deploy the camcorders, cameras, and possibly non-carriers equitably; there's no value in having two of any given limited resource in one group.

Mulay El Raisuli
03-05-2009, 6:51 AM
Sounds good. Next time I say we develop "squads" with specific destinations.

3 people to go here.
4 people to go there.
5 people to go there.

Don't tag names to the squads until we show up; we had so many folks not show up (my wife was all excited about going until her pinched nerve started acting up on Thurs or so, for example) that we'd end up with under-sized squads.

Try to deploy the camcorders, cameras, and possibly non-carriers equitably; there's no value in having two of any given limited resource in one group.


Excellent idea. Also, we should pick the prettiest to head over by NBC 7/39.

The Raisuli

pullnshoot25
03-05-2009, 9:16 AM
How about the Zoo?

The tigers have been getting a little uppity lately...

Checking the rules now!

EDIT: The Zoo is on City grounds so we are good to go on that. It looks like Balboa Park is a city park as well, with no regulation on weapons.

http://www.balboapark.org/info/rules.php

However, the playground equipment crap in 626.95 might be a potential Achile's heel for us. Further scrutiny will be needed for this but at a later time.

I do need to practice my archery while packing my revolver cross-draw...

N6ATF
03-05-2009, 12:20 PM
Garfield and San Diego High are pretty much at opposite corners of City College on this map- http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en&q=1405%20Park%20Blvd&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

Use Distance Measurment Tool for the 1000' foot check.

7x57
03-05-2009, 1:17 PM
I doubt the zoo is a good idea tactically. Too many children. It seems clear that you have to sell the idea that normal adults are safe with guns in normal adult places before you can broach subjects like on-campus CCW. Even teachers carrying in school below college level seems even more touchy. If anything is likely to touch off a movement to "close" the "UOC loophole" (as certain people will view it), it's getting children involved, and I'm guessing someone could sell the zoo that way to the public.

I think you need a lot of success elsewhere before the zoo becomes a strategic move.

7x57

Decoligny
03-05-2009, 3:46 PM
The tigers have been getting a little uppity lately...

Checking the rules now!

EDIT: The Zoo is on City grounds so we are good to go on that. It looks like Balboa Park is a city park as well, with no regulation on weapons.

http://www.balboapark.org/info/rules.php

However, the playground equipment crap in 626.95 might be a potential Achile's heel for us. Further scrutiny will be needed for this but at a later time.

I do need to practice my archery while packing my revolver cross-draw...

626.95 only comes into play if you are violating any of the following:
PC 417 (Brandishing)
PC 12025 (concealed carry)
or PC 12031 (loaded carry)

Unloaded Open Carry shouldn't be a problem.

CitaDeL
03-05-2009, 5:09 PM
I doubt the zoo is a good idea tactically. Too many children. It seems clear that you have to sell the idea that normal adults are safe with guns in normal adult places before you can broach subjects like on-campus CCW. Even teachers carrying in school below college level seems even more touchy. If anything is likely to touch off a movement to "close" the "UOC loophole" (as certain people will view it), it's getting children involved, and I'm guessing someone could sell the zoo that way to the public.

I think you need a lot of success elsewhere before the zoo becomes a strategic move.

7x57

Yes, by all means, think of the children... I mean if there ever was a gun free zone, it should be around the children, right?

I believe this statement works well in the anti-gun playbook. This was something that one of the officers brought up in my detention, with young children exiting the grocery store nearby. The funny thing is, the officer was armed with a loaded weapon in plain sight- and I am certain he and his department would not disarm for the children's sake. I don't believe the law abiding ought to either.

As for the anti's using this as an excuse to close the "UOC loophole"- They don't need another excuse- they are already attempting to extend 626.9's gun-free school zones because of our activities. You ought to ask yourself why they didnt simply try to legislate mandatory locked cases into 12031, or ban visable weaponry, or change 12025 to make a holstered firearm 'partially concealed'. I think the answer is that they dont have any place to go, because an outright ban will result in a challenge that will lose them ground.

Back to the children- if we make any place where they are a gun free zone, then the only people who are armed nearby are going to be police, criminals and those licensed to carry. Police are not on every street corner and licenses to carry arent being passed out like food samples at Costco- so that leaves just the bad guys.

When you look at the San Diego pictures- are there no children there? If there were, were they adversely affected? Did any parents yank their offspring away from the scary guns?

Which actually brings up an important point; How many of the participants have families to protect? I cant think of a better image for us than an armed Daddy and/or armed Mommy taking their kids to the Zoo, park, or playground.

KylaGWolf
03-05-2009, 9:38 PM
There is also a school right outside the zoo boundries so I figure the zoo is out. That would also make parts of Balboa Park off limits too.

Grammaton I agree on the small groups. As long as we are in groups then there are witnesses to what happens even if someone doesn't have a recorder or a camera.

Citadel the points you bring up makes me shudder if the anti gun get their way. Oh now if it was like getting food samples at Costco to get a LTC it would be sweet but I don't see that one happening anytime soon unfortunately.

Mulay El Raisuli
03-06-2009, 6:02 AM
I doubt the zoo is a good idea tactically. Too many children. It seems clear that you have to sell the idea that normal adults are safe with guns in normal adult places before you can broach subjects like on-campus CCW. Even teachers carrying in school below college level seems even more touchy. If anything is likely to touch off a movement to "close" the "UOC loophole" (as certain people will view it), it's getting children involved, and I'm guessing someone could sell the zoo that way to the public.

I think you need a lot of success elsewhere before the zoo becomes a strategic move.

7x57


I agree. For those who disagree, I don't see this as yielding the Zoo for good, just yielding it for now. Taking a slightly long view of things isn't a bad idea.

Besides, if there is a school nearby, we can't go anyway.

The Raisuli

7x57
03-06-2009, 11:03 AM
Yes, by all means, think of the children... I mean if there ever was a gun free zone, it should be around the children, right?


Sigh. Why do gunnies think that the Incredible Hulk and The Thing wrote the book on strategy and tactics? Sometimes, frontal assault isn't the best way. But sometimes I despair of ever convincing gunnies of that.


I believe this statement works well in the anti-gun playbook.


You are thinking backwards here. It works well *for* the antis, yes. And breaking this idea would be a big win, yes. But it isn't time to drive for the enemy flag.

I think Gene was the one who recently used the metaphor of having to invade N. Africa before re-conquering Europe. That's the point. If you attack the flag now, you will lose. Period. And the consequences will be diminished strength for other things. To use another WWII metaphor, you want to hit the Maginot line frontally. It's a bad idea--you should be snapping up the small helpless neutrals to gather strength, and plan to go through the soft weak spot in the Netherlands and Belgium so by the time you deal with the Maginot line it's from the rear. :-) Why do you think that campus CCW wasn't even worth talking about until we got shall-issue in 40 states and a long track record of citizens being responsible?

The flag has to be taken, but doing it the smart way is no more a sell-out than Churchill was a sell-out because he would not invade France in 1942 like Stalin vehemently insisted on. Churchill wasn't in the game to feel good about "doing something." He was in it to win.


As for the anti's using this as an excuse to close the "UOC loophole"- They don't need another excuse- they are already attempting to extend 626.9's gun-free school zones because of our activities.


Fine, everyone knows the real anti-gunners are committed beyond reason or possibility of re-education. But they don't actually get to make any rules unless they convince fence-sitters and people who simply never think about guns to go along. That's where tactics come in. You want to hit weak points, not strong points. Anytime they can make the "think of the children" argument to the "nons" (meaning people who aren't really either pro or anti, the vast majority of the public), you are hitting a strong point. What you want to do is *first* hit all the weak points you can, and build strength while sapping theirs.

Is there a time to hit the strong points? Absolutely--when good strategy has put you in a position to take them. But you have to be realistic enough to know when that is and when it is *not* (yet, we hope and believe).


You ought to ask yourself why they didnt simply try to legislate mandatory locked cases into 12031, or ban visable weaponry, or change 12025 to make a holstered firearm 'partially concealed'. I think the answer is that they dont have any place to go, because an outright ban will result in a challenge that will lose them ground.


Right. They *want* to do those things just as you want to break the "think of the children" argument. But they're too smart to hit it right now, because it's a strong point. We need to be as smart as (smarter than) they are--they were winning for most of the 20th century, until we started getting wise.


Back to the children- if we make any place where they are a gun free zone, then the only people who are armed nearby are going to be police, criminals and those licensed to carry.


It's pointless to try to school me on this elementary line of argument. It is quite possible that I am more extreme on what the actual reality is than you are. But it's irrelevant. You are talking about reality. This is about the politics of teaching the nons that reality, not working on the basis that they already accept it. And to teach it, you must go one step at a time or they will decide to back the antis after all.


When you look at the San Diego pictures- are there no children there? If there were, were they adversely affected? Did any parents yank their offspring away from the scary guns?


Again, you dangerously misunderstand the whole political reality. In the non's minds, zoos are particularly connected with children, and therefore the antis argument is more powerful. What you have to do *first* is build credibility, and that means working where politically easiest.


Which actually brings up an important point; How many of the participants have families to protect? I cant think of a better image for us than an armed Daddy and/or armed Mommy taking their kids to the Zoo, park, or playground.

I can't think of a worse one *now*. This is not about reality, so let's not get sidetracked into a discussion neither of us disagree on in any material way. I would not mind bringing my four-year-old to an OC meet--he's already shot my .22 and my cap&ball .44 at Angeles range (with both my hands on the guns, obviously--at that age, he can learn things that will make him safe in the future but can never be trusted with his own safety in the present). But that's because I understand what the reality of the situation is. This discussion is about demonstrating that reality to skeptical nons, not assuming that they know it and barging ahead with fights we will lose instead of encircling those strong points by fighting fights we can win (and that set us up to eventually invade the antis Home Islands--but even there we'd have to go through Okinawa, so to speak).

The antis have sold a false vision of reality. They've sold it really really well. To win in the long-term, we have to demonstrate the ridiculousness of that false vision to the nons, and that isn't easy because they don't really pay much attention to gun issues unless they are thrust on them. The only thing that gets their attention is a massacre, and that's the worst time for us to have to explain that the gun wasn't the problem.

So how do we do that? We pick off the easy marks first. We encircle the strong positions. We build credibility. We may have to do that for as many generations as the antis have sold lies. But eventually, and only if we fight smarter and not harder, we'll be in a position to deal with the hardest issues, such as "children and guns."

But only if we fight smarter instead of harder. If we fight harder, we could repeat the mistakes that Don Kates discusses in several states where the state Constitutional RKBA was literally nullified by fighting the wrong fights in the wrong order.

We could absolutely end up with precedents that make the 2A non-functional even within an individual rights framework. It happened more than once in state court. This was a gift to us, because we had the rare gift of getting to try again. We *must not* screw it up now, because in my opinion this is very likely to be the last and final chance to establish a set of legal precedents that give us a genuine, functional, meaningful 2A. If we fail we'll fail for a century or more before there is another legal opportunity to revisit the issue, if there *ever* is one. And even if there is another legal opportunity, in that century the gun culture will be so decisively destroyed that culturally there would be no chance. Think about it--Parliamentary supremacy means that every gun law in Britain can be rolled back any time there are the votes in Parliament. There is no constitutional issue at all. But at this point most Britons would not even fight to change things, because they grew up without guns. The English gun culture is gone, probably for good. Ours, which has the same common ancestor as theirs, is still alive and that gives us a chance.

If, and only if, we fight smarter, not harder.

7x57

Cypren
03-06-2009, 12:06 PM
:iagree:

GuyW
03-06-2009, 12:32 PM
I agree. For those who disagree, I don't see this as yielding the Zoo for good, just yielding it for now. Taking a slightly long view of things isn't a bad idea.

Besides, if there is a school nearby, we can't go anyway.

The Raisuli

The Zoo is "private property", leased by the City to the San Diego Zoological Society IIRC....

It can prohibit guns...
.

N6ATF
03-06-2009, 12:41 PM
Someone would need to go into their security office to see a copy of the rules and regs... I looked all over the website(s) and couldn't find them.

GuyW
03-06-2009, 12:58 PM
I can guarantee that the Zoo has substantial Fatherland-Security rules and measures...this seems to be a tough venue...
.

Mulay El Raisuli
03-07-2009, 6:16 AM
I can guarantee that the Zoo has substantial Fatherland-Security rules and measures...this seems to be a tough venue...
.


Then 7X57 is even more right. It isn't a place to "take" at the moment.

OTOH, once things have advanced a bit, it is GREAT place to stage an Open Carry event. The Zoo (and Balboa Park in general) is just chock full of tourists. People from all over the world go there. People we can educate. We could wind up spreading the word to not only our fellow Californians, & not only our fellow Americans, but to foreigners as well. Think of the possibilities.

The Raisuli

pullnshoot25
03-07-2009, 6:44 AM
Someone would need to go into their security office to see a copy of the rules and regs... I looked all over the website(s) and couldn't find them.

Can't find the regs, no signs posted... let's do it! Easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission, hehe.