PDA

View Full Version : Can a gun store turn down a PPT request??


Can't buy anything here
12-24-2008, 9:29 PM
Okay, in regards to my have to buy a lock thread, I called Retting in Culver City and told them I had a friend coming down from SF with a gun to transfer to me....the salesperson was very nice, but informed me that since there has been quite a run on guns lately, they may not have time to do a PPT. I told him I only had a one day window and he said if I came in when they opened it should be okay, but could not guarantee it would be done later on...so I called LAPRAAC and was told it is illegal to turn down a PPT request...since I just found out my friend is coming in during the week, I will use LAPRAAC (they are closed weekends) instead of taking the chance with Retting. Just wanted to pass this info along...

rayra
12-24-2008, 9:35 PM
Not by law, no. But there's some weasel words in the regulation that the smart ones use to make you stand around and wait forever, hoping you'll take that low-profit-margin business elsewhere.

You can find the reg at CA-DOJ Firearms page, in one of the regs or FAQ pages.

/personally I think they are bitter idiots for passing up a VERY easy bit of cash.

Rudolf the Red
12-24-2008, 9:40 PM
Crazy!

I never turn down legal business. If you are nice to someone, they not only come back, they tell a friend.

Seesm
12-24-2008, 9:53 PM
What poster #3 said... you can't fix dumb.... Why turn away ANY money...?

ZombieKiller
12-24-2008, 10:01 PM
It's happened to me before....

sorensen440
12-24-2008, 10:04 PM
I would not shop somewhere that made me wait or refused to do a ppt
its in there best interest as 3 out of 4 guns I buy new from them

ZirconJohn
12-24-2008, 10:24 PM
Never turn away almost free advertisement, never! Best way to win a customer for life... it's a win/win situation for the Dealer and customer.

Some people just don't know how to promote business.

WINGEDSWORD
12-24-2008, 10:46 PM
You couldn't pay me to buy from Rettings. They've ALWAYS had an attitude
problem, besides being over priced on most things!

12GAUGE
12-24-2008, 10:48 PM
The last PPT I did, When I went back to pick up my pistols I saw a 1887 repo shotgun and bought it on the spot.

jlh95811
12-24-2008, 11:11 PM
The last PPT I did, When I went back to pick up my pistols I saw a 1887 repo shotgun and bought it on the spot.

My first PPT was a sale. I purchased a Tikka .308 from the same store same day. And have since bought 5 more rifles from them.

becxltoo984
12-24-2008, 11:14 PM
Why are they doing this ? Because some gun shops are flush with Business over the Obama scare .
The $ 10.00 or so they make off a transfer hardly seems worth it to them . What they fail to grasp
is all the ill will they are building with some . I did a private party transfers earlier this week at a local gun shop in Sac the owner acted like he was doing us huge favor . I just about reached into my pocket and showed him the receipt for $700.00 upper I bought from him two days prior . The $250.00 dollars I made
of the transfer while in his shop. I decided to spend the money elsewhere . And I really wanted one of the Advantage Arms 22 caliber conversion kit's he had for sale .

Excuse my rant .

jlh95811
12-24-2008, 11:28 PM
Why are they doing this ? Because some gun shops are flush with Business over the Obama scare .
The $ 10.00 or so they make off a transfer hardly seems worth it to them . What they fail to grasp
is all the ill will they are building with some . I did a private party transfers earlier this week at a local gun shop in Sac the owner acted like he was doing us huge favor . I just about reached into my pocket and showed him the receipt for $700.00 upper I bought from him two days prior . The $250.00 dollars I made
of the transfer while in his shop. I deiced to spend elsewhere . And I really wanted the Advantage Arms 22 caliber conversion kit's he had for sale .

Excuse my rant .

Which store?

becxltoo984
12-24-2008, 11:36 PM
River City Gun Exchange ......

Can't buy anything here
12-25-2008, 9:05 AM
You couldn't pay me to buy from Rettings. They've ALWAYS had an attitude
problem, besides being over priced on most things!

I'm with you on that one...they can have real attitude....but my experience is that is quite normal for guns stores...LA Gun in West Hollywood was like that too...made you feel like you they are doing you a favor letting you walk in and spend money......guess they get tired of all the looky loos and arm chair commandos ...but when they get burned out taking guns out of cases, maybe they should move on...LA guns did. Not sure if that was their decision or the feds though...

yzernie
12-25-2008, 9:18 AM
I've had a couple dealings with Retting's and they have all been good. I have never been in there when they haven't been busy. Still does not excuse their attitude sometimes.

nobs11
12-25-2008, 9:25 AM
As has been said, it is required legally, but some FFLs don't do it.

Bad business practice.

Also, some FFLs say that they are getting enough business already, Obama, etc. That is why they will always remain little businessmen and their businesses will never grow to a point where they can dominate part of the market. It is not hard to become a small fish in a big pond. The smart business person takes the long term view. Shop flooded with customers? A good businessman thinks to himself "hey, maybe I need to expand, lease a bigger place, hire more people." The chicken little guy thinks "oh crap, it's crowded, gonna be a busy day, no PPTs, let them screw off, I'm gonna go home at 5." There is no such thing as too many customers.

phil conrad
12-25-2008, 1:36 PM
That is why I will never buy from them again

rysmithjr
04-12-2009, 11:59 PM
went to Retting this weekend for a PPT and they made us stand around for an hour and 15 mins before starting the paperwork. Manager seems to have a policy to make all PPT's wait, even though the seller had bought this handgun from them, and had a rifle on layaway with them. We finally got it done and the guys working the floor were apologetic about it, but I do know I'm going to find elsewhere to buy accessories and ammo, they just lost out on some easy money.

bohoki
04-13-2009, 12:11 AM
yea nobody at the doj cares about enforcing rules as long as it is stopping people from transfering

i went to a place in northern california i wont drop any names but they are a whole "house of guns" and they wanted $45 to ppt face to face transfer

the ca doj doesnt care maybe i should say they are just handing out guns in 9 days i bet they would be all over that but for "consumer protection" don't hold your breath

cousinkix1953
04-13-2009, 12:12 AM
A few solutions to this problem.

If the state wants to require private party transfers; then the police and sheriff's departments should be required to do the paperwork during normal business hours. They have the NICS computers right there on the premisis.

They should revoke the business licenses of gun stores and dealers who refuse to obey the existing laws. Have few words with your city council, county supervisors or state legislators.

Gun rights attorneys should file lawsuits against these jerks and the state of Kalifornia for permitting this kind of baloney.

I would boycott any gun store or dealer who is exposed on this website. Thanks for telling me just who those a--holes are...

Look Wat I kAn DO !
04-13-2009, 12:15 AM
can any shop do a ppt for OLL?

HK Dave
04-13-2009, 12:15 AM
Wow I never knew it was the law to do a PPT. Makes sense now that I think on it.

jtippins
04-13-2009, 12:18 AM
It does get hairy during rush times at dealers then folks want to come in at the last minute or at closing for a PPT - however, most shops will let you just get in line. When it's your turn, you just do your bz. Some shops also require that you be in store 1 hour before closing just to be fair.

CALI-gula
04-13-2009, 12:19 AM
went to Retting this weekend for a PPT and they made us stand around for an hour and 15 mins before starting the paperwork. Manager seems to have a policy to make all PPT's wait, even though the seller had bought this handgun from them, and had a rifle on layaway with them. We finally got it done and the guys working the floor were apologetic about it, but I do know I'm going to find elsewhere to buy accessories and ammo, they just lost out on some easy money.


Here is where they also lose; for example, just last weekend I went in to Ammo Bros to do a PPT with a guy from this board - a Springfield 1911; next thing I know, I'm telling the guy behind the counter at Ammos Bros, that I'll also fill out 4473/DROS forms for the $1000 rifle off the shelf behind him, and take $250 worth of ammo as well. I have a witness to all of this.

Sorry Rettings; but you guys lose out on a whole lot more than the time you spend catering to 13th in line lookie-loo walkins who came in over 40 minutes AFTER the PPT customer, all the while that you think it a funny past-time just to aggravate PPT customers, when you refuse, or act simply like dicks and drag your knuckles, when it comes to PPTs.

AND... Rettings is a MUCH closer drive for me than Ammo Bros, by about 28 miles. Do you know how far it is from Rettings to Ammo Bros? About 27 miles. So do the math. That means I am driving 1 mile to Rettings, PASSING Rettings on Washington Blvd., THEN DRIVING ANOTHER 27 MILES JUST TO AVOID DOING PPTs AT Rettings, meanwhile taking all my other non-PPT business (which is substantial) elsewhere to other gun shops and dealers.

Hell, it's more congenial, decent, and friendly to do a PPT at ANY Turner's than it is at Rettings, and that's saying a LOT! :thumbsup:



.

iddie
04-13-2009, 12:24 AM
I haven't had such bad experiences at gun stores like some of you have. But I can say that customer service is key in running any business. If you have horrible customer service, I am not shopping there any more and would much rather take my business elsewhere even if I do pay a little more.

ke6guj
04-13-2009, 12:29 AM
Here is where they also lose; for example, just last weekend I went in to Ammo Bros to do a PPT with a guy from this board - a Springfield 1911; next thing I know, I'm telling the guy behind the counter at Ammos Bros, that I'll also fill out 4473/DROS forms for the $1000 rifle off the shelf behind him, and take $250 worth of ammo as well. I have a witness to all of this. .

that's when you start faxing/emailing redacted copies of the receipts to Rettings stating that since they dick you around on PPTs, you've decided to take ALL your business elsewhere, and they get to see the amount of money they are missing out on. One person doing that may not mean a lot, but multiple people doing that can show a business the errors in their ways.

cousinkix1953
04-13-2009, 12:44 AM
that's when you start faxing/emailing redacted copies of the receipts to Rettings stating that since they dick you around on PPTs, you've decided to take ALL your business elsewhere, and they get to see the amount of money they are missing out on. One person doing that may not mean a lot, but multiple people doing that can show a business the errors in their ways.
I do not have to remind several ham radio operators on this forum that Federal Communications Commission stopped giving the required tests for licensed radio hobbyists more than 20 years ago. Seven unelected commissioners farmed this work out to the ARRL and local radio clubs.

The feds decide how much you can charge for this service including the cost of postage stamps. More than one group has been decertified for overcharging applicants. The FCC will have none of this discrimination baloney either. I rarely hear stories about supposed corruption any more.

Why do we take this crap from sleazeball gun stores? Sacramento would have used the FCC's approach if they weren't just so damned incompetent...

lorax3
04-13-2009, 12:47 AM
No they cannot "refuse" a transfer. But they can delay it so you might as well go else where.

Like someone said earlier, many FFL's see a PPT as a waste of time and will often make you wait over an hour just to get it started.

Also they can refuse any transfer of which the dealer believes to be a prohibited gun. A dealer once refused to do PPT on an SKS since the SKS is "banned by name". Even thought it had a fixed magazine......

It only takes one visit to a gun shop to make or break it for me.

-lorax

CnCFunFactory
04-13-2009, 12:54 AM
You couldn't pay me to buy from Rettings. They've ALWAYS had an attitude
problem, besides being over priced on most things!

+1

Last time I was there to get sights installed what a mess, rude, short and dismissive would be the only way to describe the individual I dealt with. Never again.

GrizzAwoken
04-13-2009, 1:27 AM
I had a chain in San Diego which I will as of now not name turn me and another Cal-Gunner down for a PPT. They said they were too lowed staffed that day to do any PPTs and I had best drive to another Store. Kinda turned me sour towards giving my business to them for anything else. At the time, I did not know they could not legally turn away a PPT or I would said quite a bit of something.

Polite business during a PPT brings back repeat business along with word of mouth business. I personally do over 50% of my personal business from referrals and word of mouth and treat all clients and potential clients with the best of care and curtsy whether I think I'll get business or not from them. Common business sense 101 and common HUMAN sense 101, treat others how you wish to be treated.

-Grizz

Quiet
04-13-2009, 1:32 AM
By law, [12082(a)]
... max amount a FFL dealer can charge is $35 ($10 dealer fee + 25 DROS fee).

By law, [12082(c)]
... if the FFL dealer does not sell handguns, then they do not have to PPTs.
... if the FFL dealer does sell handguns, then they have to do PPTs.

FFL dealer violating this is committing a misdemeanor. [12082(d)]


Penal Code 12082
(a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.
(b) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this section to do all of the following:
(1) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer, and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and 12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.
(2) Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry provided by subdivision (c) of Section 11106.
(3) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer shall state the name and address of the seller or transferor of the firearm or the person loaning the firearm and whether or not the person is a personal handgun importer in addition to any other information required by Section 12077.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required to process private party transfers of handguns.
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

glockman19
04-13-2009, 6:14 AM
You couldn't pay me to buy from Rettings. They've ALWAYS had an attitude
problem, besides being over priced on most things!

I agree. Every time I've ever visited their store they have treated me poorly. every question or attempt to view a gun was responded with an attitude like they were doing me a favor.

I have not and will not buy anything from M B Retting.

LAPRAAC, is run by one of the nicest and well knoweledged managed guy I know. Don and his crew are top notch.

You made the right choice.

guns_and_labs
04-13-2009, 6:58 AM
At $10, they have to be losing money, given the cost of the paperwork, etc. And I've seen stores hip-deep in PPTs (who weren't seemingly buying anything else), and watched other potential patrons just walk away because the place was too crowded.

The "good advertising" argument seems a little weak, at least around here. See, we don't have many gun shops left, period. They don't have to advertise, they have to survive. And low profits and intense regulatory scrutiny don't help.

I heard from the owner of the affected store, that one of the stores closed in the bay area was closed because of problems associated with PPTs. Another store owner told me that because of that, and because the PPTs get "extra" attention from the auditors, they have several extra checklists, which makes it takes longer, which means they get jammed up even more, lose even more money, etc.

So... a loss on every transaction, drives other/profitable business out the door, extra attention from auditors, and then the occasional guy comes in waving regs and claiming their rights.... hmmm, I wonder why the stores are trying to figure out some way of balancing things... :rolleyes:

Jonathan Doe
04-13-2009, 7:01 AM
I will use LAPRAAC (they are closed weekends) instead of taking the chance with Retting. Just wanted to pass this info along...

As far as I know, LAPRAAC only sells or does a PPR for LEO as an end user only. But, they have a nice crew.

rtlltj
04-13-2009, 8:29 AM
If they would only realize that when you know of say 4 shops that are selling the same gun for the same price your probably going to buy it from the shop with the reputation.

CaliTheKid
04-13-2009, 8:42 AM
LA Guns sent me away. Said transfers were by appointment only on Fridays only and that they had the right to refuse service to anyone including transfers. Place was empty. I was very polite the entire time explaining the seller had driven a very long way...made no difference.

CnCFunFactory
04-13-2009, 8:44 AM
LA Guns sent me away. Said transfers were by appointment only on Fridays only and that they had the right to refuse service to anyone including transfers. Place was empty. I was very polite the entire time explaining the seller had driven a very long way...made no difference.

God that sucks! I hate crap like that!

cousinkix1953
04-13-2009, 8:55 AM
I had a chain in San Diego which I will as of now not name turn me and another Cal-Gunner down for a PPT. They said they were too lowed staffed that day to do any PPTs and I had best drive to another Store. Kinda turned me sour towards giving my business to them for anything else. At the time, I did not know they could not legally turn away a PPT or I would said quite a bit of something.

Polite business during a PPT brings back repeat business along with word of mouth business. I personally do over 50% of my personal business from referrals and word of mouth and treat all clients and potential clients with the best of care and curtsy whether I think I'll get business or not from them. Common business sense 101 and common HUMAN sense 101, treat others how you wish to be treated.

-Grizz
It costs you nothing to turn them in. Anybody can send an e-mail to AG, Jerry Brown. He used to be a real hard nose about consumer affairs the first time around. What could be more fun, than undercover DoJ guys having the same problem during a sting operation? The Bureau of Automotive Repairs does this to catch crooked mechanics all of the time...

Joe
04-13-2009, 11:50 AM
Canyon Sports in Martinez only does PPT's between 11-1 on Saturdays. This is just one of the MANY reasons I refuse to shop there.

Fred C Dobbs
04-13-2009, 4:13 PM
Go to one of the Turners Outdoorsman stores. Check their web site Open seven days and they will do it. The guy you talked to was an Adam Henry case, I just bought a gun there from a really nice guy. There is one I saw who was not to my liking.

CnCFunFactory
04-13-2009, 4:18 PM
Turners has shown the same behavior in the past. A one hour wait time is ridiculous. Then when they do start the process with you they complain that they don't get paid to do "these". I at one point had a very good relationship with one of the hguys at turners pasadena and use to tip him ten bucks after the transaction.

cousinkix1953
04-13-2009, 9:34 PM
Turners has shown the same behavior in the past. A one hour wait time is ridiculous. Then when they do start the process with you they complain that they don't get paid to do "these". I at one point had a very good relationship with one of the hguys at turners pasadena and use to tip him ten bucks after the transaction.
Wait a minute, isn't the DROS fee $35.00 per gun?

These crybabies remind me of those retail stores who want to sell large volumes of bottled and canned beverages. You ought to hear them gripe, when the city council suggests that these merchants operate their own neighborhood recycling centers and clean up their own messes. "Wah, you can't put those restrictions on our business licenses."

I still say that the state should finance their DROS requirements or be subjected to a lawsuit. Not everybody has a local gun store or a licensed firearms dealer in their town; but they do have a sheriff or police department substation in the area! Let them do the paperwork during normal business hours!

The status quo only gives people another justifiable excuse to ignore a law, when an a--hole gun dealer makes it harder to follow these rules...

Quiet
04-13-2009, 11:03 PM
Wait a minute, isn't the DROS fee $35.00 per gun?

"DROS" fee is $25 total ($19 DROS fee + $1 Firearms Safety Testing Fee + $5 Safety & Enforcement fee).

Maximum cost, by CA law, for a PPT is $35 ($10 dealer fee + $25 "DROS" fee).

One Shot, One Dropped
04-13-2009, 11:23 PM
"DROS" fee is $25 total ($19 DROS fee + $1 Firearms Safety Testing Fee + $5 Safety & Enforcement fee).

Maximum cost, by CA law, for a PPT is $35 ($10 dealer fee + $25 "DROS" fee).

Well, I won't put their name out there because I really like the shop for other guns I have bought there and the good customer service, but I PPT'ed two handguns at one shop (at once) a couple months back, and I was charged $120.00 total (2x $35.00 (DROS/PPT) + 2x $25.00 (Safe Handling Demonstration for Each Pistol)). I was pretty sure I was getting shafted, but I like them, didn't want to start a scene and wanted to start my 10-day wait(s).

Oldnoob
04-14-2009, 12:15 AM
2 weeks ago, me and a fellow calgunner plan a trade meet at Stackade (westminster). I have been there before, the cs was ok at best, and sometime they will *****ing about how PPT actually hurt their business :confused:. But never like that before. They refuse to do it because they were busy, we both had ask them on phone if they will do PPT, then they reply yes as long as not weekend. That was reason why we were there Friday. We (mostly the other calgun member, I need to be nice with them because beside of PPT, I also need to pick up another pistol from them) had to drill them about FFL require by law to perform PPT. They try to give some BS like, "we are require to do PPT but not require when. We are busy right now...etc".

I pick up my gun today, and I know this would be the last time I visit Stockade. Since I don't want to further harm their business.

Also, I phone Bolsa gunsmith (westminster), and they mention they only do PPT at Tuesday. I'm not sure if that's legal.

Oldnoob
04-14-2009, 12:23 AM
By law, [12082(a)]
... max amount a FFL dealer can charge is $35 ($10 dealer fee + 25 DROS fee).

By law, [12082(c)]
... if the FFL dealer does not sell handguns, then they do not have to PPTs.
... if the FFL dealer does sell handguns, then they have to do PPTs.

FFL dealer violating this is committing a misdemeanor. [12082(d)]


Penal Code 12082
(a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.
(b) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this section to do all of the following:
(1) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer, and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and 12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.
(2) Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry provided by subdivision (c) of Section 11106.
(3) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer shall state the name and address of the seller or transferor of the firearm or the person loaning the firearm and whether or not the person is a personal handgun importer in addition to any other information required by Section 12077.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required to process private party transfers of handguns.
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

There we go. Maybe we should high light (d) and fax to any FFL before we go in to do a PPT.

Quiet
04-14-2009, 3:52 AM
Well, I won't put their name out there because I really like the shop for other guns I have bought there and the good customer service, but I PPT'ed two handguns at one shop (at once) a couple months back, and I was charged $120.00 total (2x $35.00 (DROS/PPT) + 2x $25.00 (Safe Handling Demonstration for Each Pistol)). I was pretty sure I was getting shafted, but I like them, didn't want to start a scene and wanted to start my 10-day wait(s).

WTF! $25 for "Safe Handling Demonstration"?!?!? :eek:

First time I've ever heard of that.

Maybe, you should make a copy of the CA DOJ BOF FAQ for Firearms Dealers (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php) and point out question #17 and #18.


#17. What fees can I charge in addition to the DROS?

In addition to the State's $19.00 DROS fee, you must also charge a $1.00 Firearms Safety Testing fee and a $5.00 Safety and Enforcement fee. If the transaction being processed is a dealer sale, consignment return, or return from pawn, you may impose other charges as long as this amount is clearly shown as a "dealer fee" and not misrepresented as a State fee.

(PC sections 12071(b)(11), (12))


#18. What fees can I charge for handling a Private Party Transfer (PPT)?

If the transaction is a PPT, you are restricted to charging no more than $25.00 in State fees described and $10.00 per firearm for conducting the PPT.
For example:

a. For a PPT involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees are $35.00 for the first handgun, and $31.00 for each subsequent handgun.
b. For PPTs involving one or more long guns, the State fees are limited to $25.00 for the whole transaction plus $10.00 dealer fee per firearm transferred.

(PC section 12082)

lunde
04-14-2009, 4:51 AM
One Shot, One Dropped, you wrote:Well, I won't put their name out there because I really like the shop for other guns I have bought there and the good customer service, but I PPT'ed two handguns at one shop (at once) a couple months back, and I was charged $120.00 total (2x $35.00 (DROS/PPT) + 2x $25.00 (Safe Handling Demonstration for Each Pistol)). I was pretty sure I was getting shafted, but I like them, didn't want to start a scene and wanted to start my 10-day wait(s).That would be Sportsmens Supply on Camden Avenue in San Jose. I sold my Trailside to a friend a couple years ago, and we effected the PPT there. I was shocked that they charged him $25 for the safety demonstration. I was hoping to hear that they stopped this practice, so I am disappointed to hear of your experience.

naimad
04-14-2009, 5:12 AM
I would not shop somewhere that made me wait or refused to do a ppt
its in there best interest as 3 out of 4 guns I buy new from them

+1 on that

rcc96
04-14-2009, 6:49 AM
Tried to do PPT at BUCKHORN in glendora a few months ago he will gladly do your PPT for 4 times the cost dont even think about out of state transfer.

Not really sure why he stays in business.

RCC

socalgunrunner
04-14-2009, 7:07 AM
LA Guns sent me away. Said transfers were by appointment only on Fridays only and that they had the right to refuse service to anyone including transfers. Place was empty. I was very polite the entire time explaining the seller had driven a very long way...made no difference.

Ironically, now the owner of LA Guns is pleading for our help in a separate thread.

Read on: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349

After the way he's treated some of us in the past, I'm not really inclined to help him with anything.

laguns
04-14-2009, 8:40 AM
LA Guns sent me away. Said transfers were by appointment only on Fridays only and that they had the right to refuse service to anyone including transfers. Place was empty. I was very polite the entire time explaining the seller had driven a very long way...made no difference.


This is true, we only did transfers on Fridays for a while, even I called DOJ and was told this would be fine. But at some point DOJ mandated we do transfers anytime during regular hours so we did.

As for sending you away, it's totally possible. My store as like others were under attack from all sides and I found myself loosing my patience with clients, for which I apologize.

Ted

socalgunrunner
04-14-2009, 9:04 AM
Tried to do PPT at BUCKHORN in glendora a few months ago he will gladly do your PPT for 4 times the cost dont even think about out of state transfer.

Not really sure why he stays in business.

RCC

The maximum that they're allowed to charge per state law is $35. They should at the very least be reported to the DOJ.

One Shot, One Dropped
04-14-2009, 9:32 AM
One Shot, One Dropped, you wrote:That would be Sportsmens Supply on Camden Avenue in San Jose. I sold my Trailside to a friend a couple years ago, and we effected the PPT there. I was shocked that they charged him $25 for the safety demonstration. I was hoping to hear that they stopped this practice, so I am disappointed to hear of your experience.

Well, you would be right.

I didn't want to out them that bad. They are great guys, and I continue to shop there. I don't hold it against them. I guess it just makes it worth their while, and they are more than happy to do a PPT (which is more than I can say for most stores).

kermit315
04-14-2009, 10:16 AM
By law, [12082(a)]
... max amount a FFL dealer can charge is $35 ($10 dealer fee + 25 DROS fee).

By law, [12082(c)]
... if the FFL dealer does not sell handguns, then they do not have to PPTs. of handguns.
... if the FFL dealer does sell handguns, then they have to do PPTs. of all legal guns.

FFL dealer violating this is committing a misdemeanor. [12082(d)]


Penal Code 12082
(a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.
(b) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this section to do all of the following:
(1) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer, and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and 12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.
(2) Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry provided by subdivision (c) of Section 11106.
(3) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer shall state the name and address of the seller or transferor of the firearm or the person loaning the firearm and whether or not the person is a personal handgun importer in addition to any other information required by Section 12077.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required to process private party transfers of handguns.
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

fixed it for ya.

Maddog5150
04-14-2009, 1:20 PM
What if one of the parties in the ppt is very belligerent, verbally assaulting or mishandling other merchandise in the store?
Not being a smartass just curious.

geeknow
04-14-2009, 1:43 PM
What if one of the parties in the ppt is very belligerent, verbally assaulting or mishandling other merchandise in the store?
Not being a smartass just curious.

...well, I think that if any customer, in any type of store behaved in the fashion that you have described above, no merchant would be out of bounds in asking that customer to leave immediately. This would most certainly included FFL's too, regardless of their duty to perform ppt's.

...and with a heavy heart, i submit to you also, that in this, our home State, common sense rarely carries the day where legislation is concerned.

Nanook
04-14-2009, 2:38 PM
Ha. Before I even clicked on the thread title I thought, "probably Retting..."

I live around the corner from them so I still go there for stuff, but still have to wait to be helped sometimes when they're busy. And they're often busy. I've walked out a couple times after 5 minutes trying to catch someone's eye. They probably didn't even notice.

FieldsofFire
04-14-2009, 3:20 PM
Not by law, no. But there's some weasel words in the regulation that the smart ones use to make you stand around and wait forever, hoping you'll take that low-profit-margin business elsewhere.

You can find the reg at CA-DOJ Firearms page, in one of the regs or FAQ pages.

/personally I think they are bitter idiots for passing up a VERY easy bit of cash.

And not only that, but the chance for return business! And even a recommendation...which will bring in much more business. The next time I need to go to a store for something, will I go back to the store that got me in-and-out quickly the last time I needed a PPT done? You bet!

The saying goes, if you like a store, you'll tell five people, if you DON'T like a store, you'll tell 11 people. I'd rather give great service to all customers no matter what the profit margin...I would assume that stores (the ones with half a brain at least...) would understand this concept by now.

socalgunrunner
04-14-2009, 4:39 PM
Ha. Before I even clicked on the thread title I thought, "probably Retting..."

I live around the corner from them so I still go there for stuff, but still have to wait to be helped sometimes when they're busy. And they're often busy. I've walked out a couple times after 5 minutes trying to catch someone's eye. They probably didn't even notice.

I bought a gun from there not too long ago. It was a Saturday, and I had to wait about 30 minutes before anyone asked me if I needed help. The only reason why I waited was because they had a Benelli shotgun that I wanted and nobody else had them in stock.

They made me pay $6 for a gun lock at the time of sale, and when I went back to pick up the gun it wasn't even in the box. I had to ask them to give it to me. The two guys that I dealt with weren't exactly rude, just a little bit arrogant.

The worst part about the whole experience was that I got a $45 parking ticket for parking on the street by the front door. I guess there's no parking M-F during the hours of 4-6pm. I went out there while the cop was there, but he had already started writing the ticket. He did apologize for having to ticket me though.

Amacias805
04-14-2009, 7:54 PM
Here is where they also lose; for example, just last weekend I went in to Ammo Bros to do a PPT with a guy from this board - a Springfield 1911; next thing I know, I'm telling the guy behind the counter at Ammos Bros, that I'll also fill out 4473/DROS forms for the $1000 rifle off the shelf behind him, and take $250 worth of ammo as well. I have a witness to all of this.

AND... Rettings is a MUCH closer drive for me than Ammo Bros, by about 28 miles. Do you know how far it is from Rettings to Ammo Bros? About 27 miles. So do the math. That means I am driving 1 mile to Rettings, PASSING Rettings on Washington Blvd., THEN DRIVING ANOTHER 27 MILES JUST TO AVOID DOING PPTs AT Rettings, meanwhile taking all my other non-PPT business (which is substantial) elsewhere to other gun shops and dealers.
.


my 2 cents.... while my transfers were OLL that i purchased from DD's ranch online, so it wasn't an PPT. but none the less i needed an FFL to perform the transfer for me. my local Gun shops in Santa Barbara and Goleta wont do transfers, i decided to take my business else where, I called a place in Santa Maria, since i go there often, guy said he would do it, but def. didn't want to, so got in contact with 10 percent in Taft. 2 1/2 hours away from me!

they did the transfers for me, i bought an rem 700 from them that same trip. last month i did another transfer with them, for an ak. wound up buying 250 more in AR accessorys, not to mention one of my friends that went for the ride with me, wound up buying a Lower, and everything needed to complete the lower...


so all in all for them performing the transfer they got

550 rem.
250 in accessory
plus my friends

200 lower
250 in accessorys...

and both of us still need to pick up, and will probably end up spending more there....

Amacias805
04-14-2009, 8:19 PM
At $10, they have to be losing money, given the cost of the paperwork, etc. And I've seen stores hip-deep in PPTs (who weren't seemingly buying anything else), and watched other potential patrons just walk away because the place was too crowded.

The "good advertising" argument seems a little weak, at least around here. See, we don't have many gun shops left, period. They don't have to advertise, they have to survive. And low profits and intense regulatory scrutiny don't help.

I heard from the owner of the affected store, that one of the stores closed in the bay area was closed because of problems associated with PPTs. Another store owner told me that because of that, and because the PPTs get "extra" attention from the auditors, they have several extra checklists, which makes it takes longer, which means they get jammed up even more, lose even more money, etc.

So... a loss on every transaction, drives other/profitable business out the door, extra attention from auditors, and then the occasional guy comes in waving regs and claiming their rights.... hmmm, I wonder why the stores are trying to figure out some way of balancing things... :rolleyes:

:fud:

without customers, stores will NOT survive. the quickest way to lose customers is arrogance and laziness, (and the BATF, if were talking about guns shops, but thats a different story) the reason most Small gun shops dont grow is because they are either too lazy to perform simple services to their customers, or because they perform them, but make side comments or remarks! they're are at least 3 shops that i "WILL NEVER" buy anything from, not even patches.

i just started buying ammo like 2 years ago, and guns this year. so someone that has been buying guns for a few years would know who they like to deal with, and who to stay away from.

Ifticar
04-14-2009, 9:14 PM
What is LAPRAAC?

cousinkix1953
04-14-2009, 9:22 PM
Ironically, now the owner of LA Guns is pleading for our help in a separate thread.

Read on: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349

After the way he's treated some of us in the past, I'm not really inclined to help him with anything.
Tell the LAPD about them f----- people over. Let them try the same thing with a cop's relatives and get busted just like a liquor store who sells to an underage decoy. Don't complasin if you don't have the guts to help put them out of the gun business.

The whole system is a racket. The attorney general isn't enforcing the law. I can't blame anybody who just ignores the regulations...

bohoki
04-14-2009, 10:29 PM
The maximum that they're allowed to charge per state law is $35. They should at the very least be reported to the DOJ.

yea the doj should just call up every ffl and just ask "how much is to transfer my gun to my friend through your store"
without saying "hello this is the california firearms division"
if the store says $35 say "when can i come in and do it"

if they saay any more than $35 or limit the times they should be moved to the top of the list for a state inspection and be informed of the rules

but they dont care

yet the freakin stores wont let a person slide on a cable lock or proof of residency

another thing is that a store can charge less than $35 if they want heck if i were a store i would say $30 ppt with $30 purchase

foxtrotuniformlima
04-15-2009, 8:58 AM
The reality is that the FFL should be sending a thank you to the DOJ for every PPT they get.

I cannot imagine any other retail business that would cry about having the gov't force customers into their store. Some people pay huge dollars advertising to get people through the door.

RECCE556
04-15-2009, 12:38 PM
No, YOU should thank the gun store for willing to put up with all the bullshiat that they need to put up with just to be in business. What happens when there's no gun shops? Waiting to do a PPT will be the least of your problems.

Anyone who thinks that running a gun shop or any business is all cake and soda should probably try JUST TO OPEN ONE. Go through the licensing procedure with the ATF AND the DOJ...then find a location that is even willing to lease you a space...then deal with customers who think they should be served like they're the King of England. THEN come back here and tell us how much you like to be buried in paperwork for $10/transaction when you could be making $200 helping out another customer.

That being said, Martin Retting does suck in that respect. What they do is just not right, however, I can not blame any FFL that puts PPT's behind sales customers. What makes more sense, having a PPT customer walk out because they don't want to wait or have a new gun purchasing customer walk out because you're too busy doing PPT's? How many PPT's do you need to do in order to match a sale of one "average" rifle (with only ONE paperwork entry)

Imagine if car dealers had to act as the DMV with super heavy regulations. Do you think the car dealer would put private party transfers before the sale of a new vehicle?

Gunshops in LA are few and far between. Some of you people need to drop your "YOU MUST SERVE ME" attitude and understand that we're ALL under attack by the anti's. We need to all support each other. Honestly, if you don't like how a FFL in your area does business, OPEN UP YOUR OWN FFL.

socalgunrunner
04-15-2009, 2:57 PM
Honestly, if you don't like how a FFL in your area does business, OPEN UP YOUR OWN FFL.

By the same logic, if we don't like a particular hamburger joint in town are we to open up our own fast food joint as well? :rolleyes:

We are are not asking to much of these poor little FFL holders. All we're asking is that they:

1) Perform PPT's as required per CA state law

2) Charge no more than the maximum of $35 for the PPT (also state law)

If FFL's do not like performing PPT's, well that's just too bad. They shouldn't have gone into the gun business then. That's part of what they agreed to when they got approval from the DOJ to operate a gun shop.

You shouldn't agree to do something, and then cry about how it's costing you money later.

RECCE556
04-15-2009, 3:34 PM
By the same logic, if we don't like a particular hamburger joint in town are we to open up our own fast food joint as well? :rolleyes:
If there are no other burger joints to go to and you really want a burger, then yes, open up your store....my point is that a lot of people who cry about this or that have NO IDEA what's it's like on the other side....Just try working at a FFL and then come back here and see if you have the same opinion...

kermit315
04-15-2009, 3:39 PM
it doesnt matter what its like on the other side: its part of having the license. period. if they cant take the bad with the good, maybe they should get out of the business.

do you think that anybody in this state likes doing PPT's? I know I dont. But it is mandated, and if we dont do it, we are breaking the law. If they dont comply with the law, how are they any less guilty?

bohoki
04-15-2009, 3:40 PM
If there are no other burger joints to go to and you really want a burger, then yes, open up your store....my point is that a lot of people who cry about this or that have NO IDEA what's it's like on the other side....Just try working at a FFL and then come back here and see if you have the same opinion...

my gripe is with the hypocracy they are sticklers to the letter of the law with some things and not others and the state doesn't seem to care about consumer protection

kermit315
04-15-2009, 3:46 PM
thats a good point too bohoki

Quiet
04-15-2009, 5:44 PM
File a compliant to the Bureau of Consumer Affairs (http://www.dca.ca.gov/)?

RECCE556
04-15-2009, 6:09 PM
it doesnt matter what its like on the other side: its part of having the license. period. if they cant take the bad with the good, maybe they should get out of the business. do you think that anybody in this state likes doing PPT's? I know I dont. But it is mandated, and if we dont do it, we are breaking the law. If they dont comply with the law, how are they any less guilty?
I'm pretty sure no one likes doing PPT's and I agree that the FFL SHOULD be doing the PPT's when people come in. What I'm trying to point out is that some people have this demanding attitude with PPT's like they're doing the FFL a favor by doing their PPT there.

my gripe is with the hypocracy they are sticklers to the letter of the law with some things and not others and the state doesn't seem to care about consumer protection
I agree, Retting is PARTICULARLY bad with that which is why I don't really shop there.

And to make sure everyone understands, I'm not defending Retting and their particular "brand" of treatment to PPT customers. I think they're basically a-holes when it comes to PPT's and their attitude in general. I've been in there and have chatted with some very nice people who have attempted to do a PPT at Rettings and have been told to basically pound sand.

I also think that all FFL should always do PPT's in a reasonable manner but customers also need to understand why FFL's aren't falling over themselves trying to do PPT's.

Amacias805
04-15-2009, 10:06 PM
No, YOU should thank the gun store for willing to put up with all the bullshiat that they need to put up with just to be in business. What happens when there's no gun shops? Waiting to do a PPT will be the least of your problems.

Anyone who thinks that running a gun shop or any business is all cake and soda should probably try JUST TO OPEN ONE. Go through the licensing procedure with the ATF AND the DOJ...then find a location that is even willing to lease you a space...then deal with customers who think they should be served like they're the King of England. THEN come back here and tell us how much you like to be buried in paperwork for $10/transaction when you could be making $200 helping out another customer.

That being said, Martin Retting does suck in that respect. What they do is just not right, however, I can not blame any FFL that puts PPT's behind sales customers. What makes more sense, having a PPT customer walk out because they don't want to wait or have a new gun purchasing customer walk out because you're too busy doing PPT's? How many PPT's do you need to do in order to match a sale of one "average" rifle (with only ONE paperwork entry)

Imagine if car dealers had to act as the DMV with super heavy regulations. Do you think the car dealer would put private party transfers before the sale of a new vehicle?

Gunshops in LA are few and far between. Some of you people need to drop your "YOU MUST SERVE ME" attitude and understand that we're ALL under attack by the anti's. We need to all support each other. Honestly, if you don't like how a FFL in your area does business, OPEN UP YOUR OWN FFL.

very bad comparison,

1)when people come into gun shops to do a PPT, dealers should be doing there best to upsell, ammo and other accessory. if all they get out of a sale is 10 bucks then they aren't very good sales people. and probably in the wrong business.

2) handing someone a background check paper to fill out, and taking a copy of the id doesn't seem very hard to do when, when talking to other customers. yeah at some point you will have to give the customer a few moments of undivided attention, but if your busy with other customers, simply making them wait a few moments to finish up while your busy, is understandable.

3) as far as customers wanting to be treated like kings, some people unfortunately act like that. but some of that is due to customers coming into gun shops and being treated with arrogance and incompetence.

i dont mean to put down any shops that do there job, because there are a lot of shops that i really do like, and try to spend at those shops. but they're are also shops that i dont like at all, and if those shops died, i would probably smile.

RECCE556
04-16-2009, 2:08 AM
1)when people come into gun shops to do a PPT, dealers should be doing there best to upsell, ammo and other accessory. if all they get out of a sale is 10 bucks then they aren't very good sales people. and probably in the wrong business.
Same can be said about a customer buying a new gun so that's a moot point because it could go either way.


2) handing someone a background check paper to fill out, and taking a copy of the id doesn't seem very hard to do when, when talking to other customers. yeah at some point you will have to give the customer a few moments of undivided attention, but if your busy with other customers, simply making them wait a few moments to finish up while your busy, is understandable.Let's see, what have you left out? Double checking the 4473 because more times than not, someone messes that up, entering the buyer's info into the computer DROS system along with the gun info (in the case of a handgun PPT), then hand writing the entry of the firearm into your books, storing it (taking up space) for at least 10 days and sometimes longer all while making sure it doesn't get messed up (esp. guns that come with no case), hand filing the 4473 and all the other documents, going through all your DROSes for the month to find the buyer's 4473 when they come to pick up, fingerprinting the buyer, giving the buyer the handgun safety drill (if necessary), having the buyer fill out that form along with a safe form, filling out the rest of the 4473 (the part that buyers never see), checking the gun out of your books which requires you hand write all their info...and I probably left a few things out. All that eats up time and when a shop is busy, that eats into face time with customers who are there to buy. And don't forget, all the forms better be ON POINT...the FFL has to make sure to dot all i's and cross all the t's because the DOJ/ATF/etc. are just looking for reasons to ding them and shut them down.

Plus, I've seen buyers who are there ready to drop say $2000 on some gear and they don't really like it when you put them on hold to deal with someone who isn't even buying anything from the store...I've seen those people walk out so the store lost a $2000 sale to handle a $35 ($10 profit) PPT. If you're the store owner, which would rather loose? A high dollar sale or a $10 PPT (saying everything else is the same...both parties can become one time visitors or life long customers)

3) as far as customers wanting to be treated like kings, some people unfortunately act like that. but some of that is due to customers coming into gun shops and being treated with arrogance and incompetence.
Chick vs. Egg. If you've ever worked in retail, you know the kind of wackos you get. Gun business is no different...you get people who just want to talk your ear off about everything and anything and people who spend hours extracting knowledge about products and then going to buy it on the internet...so are these gun shops the way are because of the customer or in spite of the customer?

i dont mean to put down any shops that do there job, because there are a lot of shops that i really do like, and try to spend at those shops. but they're are also shops that i dont like at all, and if those shops died, i would probably smile.
If every single CalGunner could get a wish where they could close any ONE shop that they didn't like (for whatever reason), there would be NO gun shops in CA (and a few other states would be missing a few too....CTD, MGS, CDNN, Brownells, etc...) so be careful what you wish for. Consider the gun shops in your immediate area. Now imagine them gone...where would you go to do your transfers, ppt's, purchases, etc.? You'd have to drive to the next county and what if the shops in that county closed down because the people in that county hate their shops too and wanted them closed down...gets pretty grim, eh?

The bottom line is that in CA, as much as the customer is doing the shops a favor by bringing them business, the shops are doing the customers a favor by being in business...and the truth of the matter is, the a-hole type customers need the a-hole shops more than the a-hole shops need the a-hole customers. Every time I go into Retting, there are a lot of people in there. If my friends and I tell them to F-off, guess what? They still have plenty of business and they don't need to deal with my attitude but now because I don't want to buy from them, I now have to drive a lot further (in LA traffic no less) to get to another shop. Gun shops aren't like liquor stores, they're not on every corner in this state....

lunde
04-16-2009, 6:09 AM
This thread is going nowhere, in the sense that there is no resolution. What we're discussing is a balancing act, and unfortunately, consumers and dealers are caught in the middle. The laws of this state simply require that face-to-face transfers be effected through a licensed dealer, and the fact that the process has become convoluted and time-consuming certainly does not help. And, given the rate at which firearms and ammunition are currently being purchased (thanks to our Commander in Chief), which also means that the number of PPTs is going up, the chance of encountering such conflicts becomes great.

My suggestion is patience, especially given today's climate. The customers who are looking to spend their hard-earned cash on something in dealer inventory need to understand and accept that the dealer is also obligated to effect PPTs. And, the customers who are there to effect PPTs need to understand that the dealer, though obligated to effect their PPT, also needs to attend to other customers so that they can remain in business (otherwise they would be unable to effect PPTs). Again, patience is key. Those effecting a PPT should be prepared to be more patient. What would be fair would be a line, and to serve customers in a queue.

But, I think we can all agree that $35 should be the only fee that is charged for PPTs. A dealer would be out of their mind to charge less, but they should also not charge more. Charging $25 for the safety demonstration is an example of violating this. And, it violates the trust that should be between the dealer and the consumer.

Whenever I prepare to effect a PPT, whether it is to buy or to sell, I always call ahead to the dealer to find out the best time to do it. This way, you can find out their policies beforehand, and also go there at a time when they are less busy.

BigMac
04-16-2009, 8:26 AM
The maximum that they're allowed to charge per state law is $35. They should at the very least be reported to the DOJ.

That is true. You can only charge $35.00 for a PPT. Nothing in the law says I cannot charge another 100.00 storage fee, safe handeling fee etc.

That is where you get to vote with your wallet.

No Irvington Arms does not have any extra fees. We do however require you are not walking into the store 10 seconds before we flip the sign to closed ;)

bohoki
04-16-2009, 9:45 AM
That is true. You can only charge $35.00 for a PPT. Nothing in the law says I cannot charge another 100.00 storage fee, safe handeling fee etc.

That is where you get to vote with your wallet.

No Irvington Arms does not have any extra fees. We do however require you are not walking into the store 10 seconds before we flip the sign to closed ;)


uh wrongo if you are going to tack on other charges then the private party transfer is more than $35

its not $35 maximum for doing paperwork and dros it is $35 maximum for a "private party transfer"

how about if you waive the storage fee if the seller stores it for the 10 days would that be allowed?

RECCE556
04-16-2009, 10:46 AM
GREAT post Lunde. I think you pretty much covered it much more eloquently then I did.:thumbsup:

This thread is going nowhere, in the sense that there is no resolution. What we're discussing is a balancing act, and unfortunately, consumers and dealers are caught in the middle. The laws of this state simply require that face-to-face transfers be effected through a licensed dealer, and the fact that the process has become convoluted and time-consuming certainly does not help. And, given the rate at which firearms and ammunition are currently being purchased (thanks to our Commander in Chief), which also means that the number of PPTs is going up, the chance of encountering such conflicts becomes great.

My suggestion is patience, especially given today's climate. The customers who are looking to spend their hard-earned cash on something in dealer inventory need to understand and accept that the dealer is also obligated to effect PPTs. And, the customers who are there to effect PPTs need to understand that the dealer, though obligated to effect their PPT, also needs to attend to other customers so that they can remain in business (otherwise they would be unable to effect PPTs). Again, patience is key. Those effecting a PPT should be prepared to be more patient. What would be fair would be a line, and to serve customers in a queue.

But, I think we can all agree that $35 should be the only fee that is charged for PPTs. A dealer would be out of their mind to charge less, but they should also not charge more. Charging $25 for the safety demonstration is an example of violating this. And, it violates the trust that should be between the dealer and the consumer.

Whenever I prepare to effect a PPT, whether it is to buy or to sell, I always call ahead to the dealer to find out the best time to do it. This way, you can find out their policies beforehand, and also go there at a time when they are less busy.

jasilva
04-16-2009, 10:50 AM
If there are no other burger joints to go to and you really want a burger, then yes, open up your store....my point is that a lot of people who cry about this or that have NO IDEA what's it's like on the other side....Just try working at a FFL and then come back here and see if you have the same opinion...


If it's that miserable then find a new line of work. Your misery is not an excuse to be a dick to customers.

As to your prior post about not getting any good advertising from being decent about PPTs. I had a PPT to do in January, I tried Guns and Fishing and Stuff in Vacaville. The dick behind the counter was a FUD spreading dick with a bad attitude. I no longer shop there and tell everyone I know what dicks they are. I found Metco in Fairfield, Paul was extremely polite and helpful and took me in the order I arrived in his store. Other buyers waited till he was done with me. I was so impressed I've bought a Sig 226 from him, a range bag and ammo, plus my next firearm purchase will be through him. I also tell everyone I know and post it on this board how top notch Metco is to deal with. So one dick behind a counter has cost his company my $1600(bought another gun at a show from another dealer even though GSF had it in stock and I drove an hour on pick up day to get it.) to date I've spent elsewhere plus I've bad mouthed them to everyone I know including on this board and I drive right by them on my way to Metco. So you can make excuses for dicks if you want but the simple fact of business is the customer is always right and customer service makes or breaks a business.

ke6guj
04-16-2009, 11:05 AM
That is true. You can only charge $35.00 for a PPT. Nothing in the law says I cannot charge another 100.00 storage fee, safe handeling fee etc.

That is where you get to vote with your wallet.

No Irvington Arms does not have any extra fees. We do however require you are not walking into the store 10 seconds before we flip the sign to closed ;)


So you are saying that a storage or safe handling fee is not prohibited by 12082. Sure sounds like it says that the purchaser can be charged a dealer fee up to $10 per firearm, and that no other fee may be charged for that transfer.

12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.
<snip>
. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section , except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.

RECCE556
04-16-2009, 11:29 AM
If it's that miserable then find a new line of work. Your misery is not an excuse to be a dick to customers.You're not getting it. What I'm saying is that a LOT of customers have no clue what it takes to be a FFL and are making judgments w/o knowing both sides of the counter.

As to your prior post about not getting any good advertising from being decent about PPTs. I had a PPT to do in January, I tried Guns and Fishing and Stuff in Vacaville. The dick behind the counter was a FUD spreading dick with a bad attitude. I no longer shop there and tell everyone I know what dicks they are....So one dick behind a counter has cost his company my $1600(bought another gun at a show from another dealer even though GSF had it in stock and I drove an hour on pick up day to get it.) to date I've spent elsewhere plus I've bad mouthed them to everyone I know including on this board and I drive right by them on my way to Metco..I'm definitely not defending the spreading of FUD nor being a dick, that's whole 'nother subject. Also, this is ONE INCIDENT specific to YOU. How do you know another customer didn't walk in 10 minutes after you and spend a good $5K at GSF? So does your $1.6K sale really matter at that point?

This kind of thing reminds of the "gas pump strike"....yeah, don't get gas on Thursday and that'll show the oil companies!! :rolleyes:

Case in point, Martin Retting. Known to be a-holes by Calgunners and a lot people in the area yet they are still in business and still doing well. A PPT customer gets mad and leaves, Retting looses a $10 profit...but at the same time, there's a customer who picks up a brand new NightHawk 1911 for $2600. Who lost there? As much as you like to think that your one incident really matters, the bottom line is that it doesn't. You don't know everyone in the world and you can't stop anyone else from shopping at GSF. Sure, maybe you and your friends don't and some people here on Calguns after reading your post but guess what? Other people who don't know you and aren't on Calguns still shop there. Which do you think is the larger crowd?

I had a dealer that I had been going to for YEARS not administer a HSC for a friend of mine to do a PPT between him and I because they didn't have enough HSC cards. They were only doing it for people actually buying a handgun there. I was pissed about it but guess what? Nothing I can do. If I need to buy a pistol that they have in stock and no one else does, I'm going to have to buy it from them or not get one.

Bottom line is that a lot of consumers need a reality check. There are WAY, WAY more gun buyers than FFL's out there and with the added pressure of liberal CA authorities, there's probably going to be even less FFL's in the future.

jasilva
04-16-2009, 12:53 PM
You're not getting it. What I'm saying is that a LOT of customers have no clue what it takes to be a FFL and are making judgments w/o knowing both sides of the counter.

I don't need to know, I go into a business, I'm always polite and respectful of anyone I meet until given a reason to act otherwise, if I am treated the same I do business there, if not I don't darken their door again. I don't give a **** if the owner's dog just died, if he's open for business he can act like an adult, if his attitude is bad he needs to stay home until able to act appropriately. In other words there is no excuse for acting like a dick to anyone.

I'm definitely not defending the spreading of FUD nor being a dick, that's whole 'nother subject. Also, this is ONE INCIDENT specific to YOU. How do you know another customer didn't walk in 10 minutes after you and spend a good $5K at GSF? So does your $1.6K sale really matter at that point?

Your not seeing beyond the short term. That was $1.6k in two months PLUS however many others decided to go elsewhere. Not mention $1.6k is during my off season, fishing, hunting and shooting combined is more like 10-15k per year that is now going elsewhere. So if this happens with say one in 100 customers you've got a hit to the ol' profit margin.

This kind of thing reminds of the "gas pump strike"....yeah, don't get gas on Thursday and that'll show the oil companies!! :rolleyes:

Again your not getting it. I'm not just avoiding them on Thursday. They've lost me permanently and at least a dozen or so of my friends. If that happens with one in 10 PPT customers suddenly your a known ******* establishment and the profit margin slips.


Case in point, Martin Retting. Known to be a-holes by Calgunners and a lot people in the area yet they are still in business and still doing well. A PPT customer gets mad and leaves, Retting looses a $10 profit...but at the same time, there's a customer who picks up a brand new NightHawk 1911 for $2600. Who lost there? As much as you like to think that your one incident really matters, the bottom line is that it doesn't. You don't know everyone in the world and you can't stop anyone else from shopping at GSF. Sure, maybe you and your friends don't and some people here on Calguns after reading your post but guess what? Other people who don't know you and aren't on Calguns still shop there. Which do you think is the larger crowd?

Sure one PPT may not be a big deal but ill will adds up over the years. Just ask the Republicans.

I had a dealer that I had been going to for YEARS not administer a HSC for a friend of mine to do a PPT between him and I because they didn't have enough HSC cards. They were only doing it for people actually buying a handgun there. I was pissed about it but guess what? Nothing I can do. If I need to buy a pistol that they have in stock and no one else does, I'm going to have to buy it from them or not get one.

I guess if the bottom line is all that matters to you then it's not a big deal to be **** on and then return for another mouth full.

Bottom line is that a lot of consumers need a reality check. There are WAY, WAY more gun buyers than FFL's out there and with the added pressure of liberal CA authorities, there's probably going to be even less FFL's in the future.

Things never stay static and the FFL's that think they'll always have the power will get an awakening. All it takes is an FFL to treat one in 10 customers this way and suddenly the profit margin starts to slip. Locally GF&S had competition from The Shooting Gallery until they lost a couple big customers for their range and stopped stocking what people wanted most, customers went elsewhere and they are now gone. Do you really think that FFL's are exempt from customer service concerns? Maybe you can play that way short term but eventually the market will shift and then it's time to pay the piper.



Spin it however you want but eventually bad customer service catches up. Lots of examples over the years of businesses with a great product but ****ty customer service that are now tits up.

guns_and_labs
04-16-2009, 1:04 PM
Spin it however you want but eventually bad customer service catches up. Lots of examples over the years of businesses with a great product but ****ty customer service that are now tits up.

But what about the DMV? Great product (my license looks really nice), lousy service, still in business.

Hey, I know. Let's have the DMV do all PPTs! They have experience with detail-oriented bureaucratic transactions, they are used to charging piddly amounts for time-consuming exercises, and they don't care if you complain. That, I'm sure, will satisfy all. Won't it? Just let the government take care of it.

RECCE556
04-16-2009, 1:26 PM
In other words there is no excuse for acting like a dick to anyone.
I'm not saying it's OK to be a dick to customers but once again, you need to work on the other side of the counter to see the whole picture.

Your not seeing beyond the short term. That was $1.6k in two months PLUS however many others decided to go elsewhere. Not mention $1.6k is during my off season, fishing, hunting and shooting combined is more like 10-15k per year that is now going elsewhere. So if this happens with say one in 100 customers you've got a hit to the ol' profit margin.
AGAIN, you're not seeing beyond YOUR OWN CASE. That $5K customer has the potential to come back and spend $30K a year...

Again your not getting it. I'm not just avoiding them on Thursday. They've lost me permanently and at least a dozen or so of my friends. If that happens with one in 10 PPT customers suddenly your a known ******* establishment and the profit margin slips.
And yet again, you're not getting it. Even if you and 10 of your friends never go back to Shell, guess what? 11 other people will. And gun stores get new people every day, especially in today's climate.


Sure one PPT may not be a big deal but ill will adds up over the years. Just ask the Republicans.I agree, the POTENTIAL is there that a PPT customer will spend a billion dollars at the shop but the SAME POTENTIAL exists for a $2000 purchase customer AND there's a $2000 sale already GUARANTEED.

I guess if the bottom line is all that matters to you then it's not a big deal to be sh*t on and then return for another mouth full.See, the problem is that you are getting your "feelings" hurt because the gunshop won't bow down to you. THIS IS THE EXACT "SERVE ME" ATTITUDE I'M TALKING ABOUT. They just delayed our PPT until they could get more HSC cards, yes, that sucks but you know, does it really matter in the end? We were able to PPT the gun and now he has it. If the store wasn't there, then what? I illegally sell the gun to him?

Things never stay static and the FFL's that think they'll always have the power will get an awakening. All it takes is an FFL to treat one in 10 customers this way and suddenly the profit margin starts to slip. Locally GF&S had competition from The Shooting Gallery until they lost a couple big customers for their range and stopped stocking what people wanted most, customers went elsewhere and they are now gone. Do you really think that FFL's are exempt from customer service concerns? Maybe you can play that way short term but eventually the market will shift and then it's time to pay the piper.
Again, you're basing your WHOLE argument on the assumption that there are plenty of FFLs to go to and those FFL's will always be willing to bow down to you. Locally, we had two FFL's shut down (not CS related). Just be glad that's not happening in your area....yet...

Trader Jack
04-16-2009, 3:01 PM
The reality is that the FFL should be sending a thank you to the DOJ for every PPT they get.

I cannot imagine any other retail business that would cry about having the gov't force customers into their store. Some people pay huge dollars advertising to get people through the door.

You have got to joking:chris:

Amacias805
04-16-2009, 5:48 PM
Same can be said about a customer buying a new gun so that's a moot point because it could go either way.

yes, but you keep assuming that you have other customers that are in the shop. how many times is the shop empty and the customer is still treated as if they're a burden.


Let's see, what have you left out? Double checking the 4473 because more times than not, someone messes that up, entering the buyer's info into the computer DROS system along with the gun info (in the case of a handgun PPT), then hand writing the entry of the firearm into your books, storing it (taking up space) for at least 10 days and sometimes longer all while making sure it doesn't get messed up (esp. guns that come with no case), hand filing the 4473 and all the other documents, going through all your DROSes for the month to find the buyer's 4473 when they come to pick up, fingerprinting the buyer, giving the buyer the handgun safety drill (if necessary), having the buyer fill out that form along with a safe form, filling out the rest of the 4473 (the part that buyers never see), checking the gun out of your books which requires you hand write all their info...and I probably left a few things out. All that eats up time and when a shop is busy, that eats into face time with customers who are there to buy. And don't forget, all the forms better be ON POINT...the FFL has to make sure to dot all i's and cross all the t's because the DOJ/ATF/etc. are just looking for reasons to ding them and shut them down

while yes, there is alot to the transfer, but again much of what you described isn't all up front, and can be taken in steps.


Plus, I've seen buyers who are there ready to drop say $2000 on some gear and they don't really like it when you put them on hold to deal with someone who isn't even buying anything from the store...I've seen those people walk out so the store lost a $2000 sale to handle a $35 ($10 profit) PPT. If you're the store owner, which would rather loose? A high dollar sale or a $10 PPT (saying everything else is the same...both parties can become one time visitors or life long customers)

I know a thing or two about losing a sale. yeah it sucks, but one of the things i've learned, is that the simplest interactions can save a sale, something as simple as saying "hello" "thank you for you patients" "ill be with you in a moment " - are the so simple, and can save so many sales, but i still see people not doing it, whether it be at a gun shop, or any sales situation, people do not greet the customer.



Chick vs. Egg. If you've ever worked in retail, you know the kind of wackos you get. Gun business is no different...you get people who just want to talk your ear off about everything and anything and people who spend hours extracting knowledge about products and then going to buy it on the internet...so are these gun shops the way are because of the customer or in spite of the customer?

yeah, i've dealt with a few crazies before. as far as the people that buy off line, sometimes there's no way around that, other times its more important that you dont have an arrogance that your the only gun shop in town, and take all the steps of a sale when with a customer.

If every single CalGunner could get a wish where they could close any ONE shop that they didn't like (for whatever reason), there would be NO gun shops in CA (and a few other states would be missing a few too....CTD, MGS, CDNN, Brownells, etc...)

True, you are correct in that aspect, all of us have shops that we dont like.


so be careful what you wish for. Consider the gun shops in your immediate area. Now imagine them gone...where would you go to do your transfers, ppt's, purchases, etc.? You'd have to drive to the next county and what if the shops in that county closed down because the people in that county hate their shops too and wanted them closed down...gets pretty grim, eh?

well i see your point. all my business that i've bought in stores has gone to 10 percent firearms in Taft.. 2-1/2 hour trip. why, because i dont like any of the shops in my area, and i liked dealing with them. so i spend 5 hours driving every time i buy a gun. does it bother me, yes. if i had a choice to spend the time driving or deal with some incompetent dicks... every time i would chose to drive!


The bottom line is that in CA, as much as the customer is doing the shops a favor by bringing them business, the shops are doing the customers a favor by being in business...and the truth of the matter is, the a-hole type customers need the a-hole shops more than the a-hole shops need the a-hole customers. Every time I go into Retting, there are a lot of people in there. If my friends and I tell them to F-off, guess what? They still have plenty of business and they don't need to deal with my attitude but now because I don't want to buy from them, I now have to drive a lot further (in LA traffic no less) to get to another shop. Gun shops aren't like liquor stores, they're not on every corner in this state....

wrong again! any shop that thinks there doing the customer a favor by being in business has a bad mindset, and probably isn't doing the business they should or wouldbe doing if they had the right mindset.

the nice thing about America is that we live in a Capitalist country. if enough stores close up, that creates a void. that void would be filled by someone who sees an opportunity to make money by filling that void!

jhaselton
04-16-2009, 6:14 PM
Wild Sports in Organgevale, CA will not do a private party transfer. They tell you no and refer you to J&G Guns. I should print this out for my next PPT and take it there just to make them do it.

RECCE556
04-16-2009, 6:53 PM
yes, but you keep assuming that you have other customers that are in the shop. how many times is the shop empty and the customer is still treated as if they're a burden.Yes, I am assuming that mostly because I'm using Rettings as an example and every time I've been in there, there's people there. I've never been there when it's completely empty. If the shop is completely empty then there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON not to service a PPT.


while yes, there is a lot to the transfer, but again much of what you described isn't all up front, and can be taken in steps.True, but it takes the same amount of time and effort to *fully* process a PPT as it does a sale which is my point.

I know a thing or two about losing a sale. yeah it sucks, but one of the things i've learned, is that the simplest interactions can save a sale, something as simple as saying "hello" "thank you for you patients" "ill be with you in a moment " - are the so simple, and can save so many sales, but i still see people not doing it, whether it be at a gun shop, or any sales situation, people do not greet the customer.I absolutely agree. I see no reason to be unpleasant to a customer. The scenarios I'm thinking of involve irate "serve me now" customers where no amount of kindness will fix their need to have immediate service.

yeah, i've dealt with a few crazies before. as far as the people that buy off line, sometimes there's no way around that, other times its more important that you dont have an arrogance that your the only gun shop in town, and take all the steps of a sale when with a customer.Absolutely. There shouldn't be arrogance that you're the only shop in town but when you get a customer that is bent to have it his way, you can't be surprised when the shop isn't willing to bend. Then you get that irate customer come on here and complain about how sh*tty the shop was from their perspective. Again, this goes back to the "entitlement" attitude that some customers have.


well i see your point. all my business that i've bought in stores has gone to 10 percent firearms in Taft.. 2-1/2 hour trip. why, because i dont like any of the shops in my area, and i liked dealing with them. so i spend 5 hours driving every time i buy a gun. does it bother me, yes. if i had a choice to spend the time driving or deal with some incompetent dicks... every time i would chose to drive!Well I'd rather deal with a **** shop and not have to drive 2.5 hours each way (and in LA, that's just going from downtown to the westside! :))

wrong again! any shop that thinks there doing the customer a favor by being in business has a bad mindset, and probably isn't doing the business they should or wouldbe doing if they had the right mindset.Well we can agree to disagree. Even from a customer standpoint, I feel that I'm lucky to have a shop near me. Especially if that shop sells EBR's and is willing to do out-of-state transfers. If I was stuck with ONLY a Turners by me, I'd be screwed...the hobby wouldn't be the same, at least for me....but man, I'd have one MUTHAF*CKING NICE over/under shotgun though! :)

the nice thing about America is that we live in a Capitalist country. if enough stores close up, that creates a void. that void would be filled by someone who sees an opportunity to make money by filling that void!ABSOLUTELY AGREE but the gun business isn't like opening up a little clothing store. Many cities won't allow a gun shop to open and the ones that are there, they're trying to close (at least in SoCal). So even though there might be a HUGE market there, if you can't get the licenses and the approval of the city to open up, what are you going do?

Do you know how well a EBR dealer would do in West Los Angeles? Try getting the city of LA to approve your business license and even if by some miracle you did get (which is I know is 100% impossible at this point), you'd have LAPD's notorious "Gun Unit" breathing down your back...oh, and by having a FFL, you're own personal collection (at your house) is subject to inspection...you know anyone willing to deal with all that for $10/transfer?

CZlover
04-17-2009, 4:53 PM
The Stockade in Westminster did tell me and my friend who's also a calgunner here in this forum that they would NOT do PPT for us UNLESS we have appointment with them since they've been short-handed.
We then decided to go to Turners in Fountain Valley. Everything went smoothly and we're both happy. Going back there to the Stockade one more time? Probably NOT:confused:

tactic101
04-19-2009, 12:54 AM
Sorry Rettings; but you guys lose out on a whole lot more than the time you spend catering to 13th in line lookie-loo walkins who came in over 40 minutes AFTER the PPT customer.

I can see why you'd be ticked off about being there before the lookie-loo. I've never done a PPT there but I've been treated well there. One of the guys there gives the usual "gun store attitude" but I've dealt with all the rest of the staff there and found them professional and helpful. Happy customer here. Also best prices I've seen in the LA area.

They need to get a number system there like at Ammo Bros because the staff never really knows who the next customer is. I've waited before there when I was ready to buy.