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bwiese
12-04-2008, 10:55 PM
(I've moved this from tail-end of another thread started by bdsmchs).
Thanks for tickling the bear, Christian :)


Dec. 10th will be the 3rd Anniversary of the OLL revolution, when OLL bulk sales began at the San Jose gunshow, thru the good graces of a redhead named Wes (10% Firearms) and a dude named Bill who wrote some supporting paperwork. (Much thanks to Ben Cannon and blackrazor for being the first intentional OLLs in California.]

For some time, we've known that the DOJ stance that a 'frame = handgun' cannot stand. It's time to kill the beast now.

This is more than a wild hair up our arses, we've accumulated paperwork supporting the legal correctness of our stance.

I myself have shied away from pushing against this in the past because it wasn't worth the drama at that time, a few OLL dramas had still occurred, and we could use the single-shot exemption in 12133PC - and thus the flow of AR pistols began. Plus we are now in a position where we can be more aggressive: some additional favorable OLL paperwork should soon be in the offing.

As of now:
- We've just killed the Roster.
- We've just killed mag disconnects.
- We've just killed LCIs.
- We've just killed microstamping (again).

If we attack en masse, nobody will have problems.

If DOJ continues to assert 'frame = handgun', we have an underground regulation readily and RAPIDLY challengeable outside the DOJ at OAL.

For clarity, let's get our terms straight and use them consistenly: I'd like to not mix up AW terminology and handgun Roster terminology. Let's keep "Off List" terminology restricted just for items not listed on, but perhaps similar to, items listed on Roberti-Roos or Kasler AW lists.

New terms we will use:

Off-Roster Handguns: handguns not on Roster nor exempt from it;



Roster-Exempt Handguns: per 12133PC: dimensionally-compliant single-action
revolvers, dimensionally-compliant single-shot pistols, C&R handguns.



Non-Rosterable Frames: (a.k.a NRFs), stripped handgun frame which aren't
Rosterable since they're not pistols - although eligible to be built into pistols.


"NRFs" .... "Nerfs" -- I like it.

And in the very near future we will not have to do single-shot treatment for AR pistols. They'll be NRF'd. (For now, continue on.)

STI Frames, anyone? NRF it.
Hell, I'm getting a S&W M&P45 Compact. NRF'd
I think Hoffman wants that KelTec 223 pistol (gawd knows why, I thought he had better taste). NRFd, of course.

I'm gonna ask that folks hold off for a very short time, including extensive discussion, til we drop in the support into place - but transfers should begin fairly shortly by one or more "Leadership FFLs" in California.

[I'd suggest just to be clean that NRF frames get DROSed fairly stripped down and that you've already acquired the upper/bbl assy separately. Handing the bag of parts along with the frame at DROS time is just a bit close for comfort at least for me.]

sorensen440
12-04-2008, 11:01 PM
Exiting times we live in...:cool:

oaklander
12-04-2008, 11:03 PM
Yes, I just wanted to take this moment to thank our leadership FFLs. You know who you are.

Yesterday I had the pleasure of visiting one of them to help them with a legal matter. I have to say that it's our FFLs who are on the front lines, and risking their livelihood and more. Without these forward-thinking FFLs, we would not have any of the goodies that we now have.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but it's really the FFLs who are the "tip of the spear" with respect to OLLs/NRFs, etc..

69Mach1
12-04-2008, 11:10 PM
Hell yes, and happy OLL anniversary Calgunners.

383green
12-04-2008, 11:11 PM
Wow, just when I'm nodding off to sleep waiting for Nordyke, Bill comes and whacks me upside the head with a cricket bat. I'm reeling! Blindsided, I tell ya! Well, that Maker's Mark on the rocks that I'm working on might have something to do with that... ;)

I came in later in the game for the OLL Revolution. So, this is what it's like to be there just before the first shot is fired? I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight!

Waiting for more discussion with bated breath...

hoffmang
12-04-2008, 11:14 PM
Just so you don't malign my firearms choices too much - I want a P3-AT in .380 - not a KelTec 223 pistol.

But I have this Krink kit that will make such a nice pistol...

-Gene

Captain Evilstomper
12-04-2008, 11:14 PM
i would be happy support these FFLs and i'm sure there are others here as well that would support them for sticking their necks out for us. but it may be a little soon to tell who they were, yes?
if so would you fill us in when the situation 'calms down' a little?

redneckshootist
12-04-2008, 11:16 PM
finally I get to build a custom 1911 :D I want to build it myself. but this makes me think I want a uzi pistol too:D

JeffM
12-04-2008, 11:16 PM
Damn, now I have to go re-write my whole Christmas wish list!!!

Everybody! :

All I want for Christmas is my two NeRF frames! My two NeRF frames!



I don't think I'm going to sleep at all tonight!

adamsreeftank
12-04-2008, 11:18 PM
So it's going to be AR and AK type pistol receivers for X-mas!

Ho Ho Ho. :D

hoffmang
12-04-2008, 11:20 PM
Check my earlier comment. What I've really been wanting from Keltec is the PF-9 (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/pf9.htm).

-Gene

CalCop
12-04-2008, 11:24 PM
As of now:
- We've just killed the Roster.
- We've just killed mag disconnects.
- We've just killed LCIs.
- We've just killed microstamping (again).

I am slow...how are these killed?

Rumpled
12-04-2008, 11:29 PM
Bill, you are such a tease!

JeffM
12-04-2008, 11:31 PM
From the other thread it sounds like-

Stripped frames are title 1 firearms, not handguns (or long-guns for that matter) so the roster doesn't apply. You can buy any Non-Rosterable Frame, then put it together. So if you find a off-roster handgun you want to buy, have it stripped down and have the frame transferred through an FFL and the parts shipped separate so you can build the gun.

White Rose
12-04-2008, 11:32 PM
So does this all mean that the 1911 frame I've owned since '98 that was registered as a handgun (but NEVER built into anything) can be one of those cool carbines? Can a pistol/pistol frame be "un-registered" as a handgun in the same manner that an AW can be "un-registered by removing "features?"

nick
12-04-2008, 11:34 PM
http://www.mechtechsys.com/

nick
12-04-2008, 11:36 PM
The questions will be, unless I'm missing something, will it need to be registered as a handgun if a handgun is built on it (most likely a yes, since handguns have to be registered here). and so if yes, then how? Also, if a carbine is built on the frame, can it be then re-built into a handgun, and vise versa?

M. Sage
12-04-2008, 11:36 PM
I am slow...how are these killed?

Because the roster is irrelevant. If you want a handgun on the roster, you buy a frame and a parts kit. When the frame is transferred to you, you assemble the handgun. A frame isn't a handgun, pistol or "firearm capable of being concealed on the person" according to CA law and is therefore exempt from the stupid list.

The questions will be, unless I'm missing something, will it need to be registered as a handgun if a handgun is built on it (most likely a yes, since handguns have to be registered here). and so if yes, then how? Also, if a carbine is built on the frame, can it be then re-built into a handgun, and vise versa?

1: Yes, you would have to register it. I'm not sure about the process, but it might simply be the voluntary reg.

2A: Yes. You can assemble it as a carbine as long as you follow AW laws and don't mess up there. A 1911 carbine, for example, would have to have a fixed magazine and follow OAL requirements.

2B: No, you cannot return your handgun frame into handgun form after assembling it as a carbine. Once it's a rifle if you shorten it you have a SBR.

CHS
12-04-2008, 11:37 PM
[I](I've moved this from tail-end of another thread started by bdsmchs).
Thanks for tickling the bear, Christian :)


Hey, no problem.

I've been discussing this in a few other threads with Freakshow and Ke6 (Jack), but it never went anywhere. I decided I had to do something about it :)

Kestryll
12-04-2008, 11:40 PM
From the other thread:
Gents, I think we're on to something. I'm going to talk to some of "the right people" but I want to issue a challenge.

PC 12125:
12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.


Note that it doesn't include frame or receiver there.

The other place to look is 12001:

12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"
"revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"
shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a
weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any
explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less
than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that
has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be
interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol,"
"revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."
(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to
be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a
projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.

(c) As used in Sections 12021, 12021.1, 12070, 12071, 12072,
12073, 12078, 12101, and 12801 of this code, and Sections 8100, 8101,
and 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, the term "firearm"
includes the frame or receiver of the weapon.
...
(k) For purposes of Sections 12021, 12021.1, 12025, 12070, 12072,
12073, 12078, 12101, and 12801 of this code, and Sections 8100, 8101,
and 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, notwithstanding the
fact that the term "any firearm" may be used in those sections, each
firearm or the frame or receiver of the same shall constitute a
distinct and separate offense under those sections.


The frame of a handgun or pistol is not defined as a handgun or pistol in 12001 (c) means that it is just a frame.

Where am I incorrect? Let's try to find the hole in that logic.

-Gene

Okay, I've been up for nearly 20 hours straight so I could be a bit foggy but how do the parts in bold all interact with this?

Does it only define the frame as a firearm and not specifically as a handgun or are they banking on it's status as a 'firearm capable of being concealed' to default it in to a 'handgun' somehow?

nick
12-04-2008, 11:42 PM
RUGER LCP

thanks!

Just say green light

+1, that's just the model I was thinking :)

Or Seecamp in .380 :)

M. D. Van Norman
12-04-2008, 11:42 PM
It sounds like another case of laws that simply don’t make sense, but how do we convince the 58 district attorneys?

CalCop
12-04-2008, 11:44 PM
Alright, so let me get this straight...an "assault pistol" is legal so long as it has a bullet button, because then it is not longer an AP...and as long as it is registered as a pistol it is not an SBR...

Am I on the right track?

CHS
12-04-2008, 11:45 PM
From the other thread:

Kestryll, nothing in 12001 references 12125. So for the purposes of rostering, a frame would appear not to be defined as a firearm or handgun/pistol.

CHS
12-04-2008, 11:47 PM
Alright, so let me get this straight...an "assault pistol" is legal so long as it has a bullet button, because then it is not longer an AP...and as long as it is registered as a pistol it is not an SBR...

Am I on the right track?

An assault pistol is never legal in CA :)

A semi-automatic pistol, with a bullet button or similar magazine-locking device and magazine capacity of 10rd's or less is exempt from the pistol AW laws.

nick
12-04-2008, 11:47 PM
1: Yes, you would have to register it. I'm not sure about the process, but it might simply be the voluntary reg.

2A: Yes. You can assemble it as a carbine as long as you follow AW laws and don't mess up there. A 1911 carbine, for example, would have to have a fixed magazine and follow OAL requirements.

2B: No, you cannot return your handgun frame into handgun form after assembling it as a carbine. Once it's a rifle if you shorten it you have a SBR.

So Mech Tech upper being interchangeable with the regular Glock or 1911 slide on a regular basis won't work then. Pity.

M. Sage
12-04-2008, 11:49 PM
Alright, so let me get this straight...an "assault pistol" is legal so long as it has a bullet button, because then it is not longer an AP...and as long as it is registered as a pistol it is not an SBR...

Am I on the right track?

AW laws cover rifles, handguns and shotguns in some way. If a handgun that's off-list but otherwise has evil features has a mag lock, it's fine. As long as it's a handgun and doesn't have a stock, it's not an SBR. As long as the receiver or frame was never used as the basis for a rifle configuration, it's not an SBR. As long as it doesn't have something like a forward vertical grip, it's not an AOW.

Black pistol legalities: making ownership of black rifles look easy.

hoffmang
12-04-2008, 11:49 PM
There will be more to this story soon to convince the 58 DAs.

Kes: A frame or receiver is only a firearm under California law for Sections 12021, 12021.1, 12070, 12071, 12072, 12073, 12078, 12101, and 12801 of this code, and Sections 8100, 8101, and 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code. The handgun roster is in Section 12125 which isn't in the above list.

Alison goofed and I bet she noticed it back when she first thought of what lead to this letter (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Lockyer%20Letter%20-%20AB%202728.pdf) (read footnote "second" 3.) Also remember the legislative history of AB-2728 which stated that the frame or receiver of an OLL is not a firearm.

That also explains better what Alison was thinking when she wrote this letter (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Merilees-Opines-80-percent-1911-AR-2005-11-1.pdf)... She's still technically incorrect in that letter, but I know better know why she was thinking that.

-Gene

383green
12-04-2008, 11:50 PM
http://www.mechtechsys.com/

The Mech Tech guys say this on their web page:

Legal Alert: This product is for sale to California dealers under limited conditions only. Although the product of itself is legal, the resulting combination with a pistol frame becomes illegal under California law. Please contact Mech-Tech for details relative to dealer sales in CA. At this time we know of no other states where the combination is not legal but we caution everyone to become aware of relative state and local laws.


Can anybody shed more light on this? Are they referring to CA's AW laws, since without some sort of magazine lock this would turn into a pistol-gripped centerfire rifle?

That reminds me... I need to go look at one of my 1911 guns and see if it looks like the regular magazine catch would still work properly and not pop out of position when pressed if the button portion was machined off to sit flush with the frame surface, or slightly below. ;)

M. Sage
12-04-2008, 11:52 PM
Yes, but I don't see why anybody would really want a mag-locked Glock carbine conversion thing that can never be re-assembled as a Glock handgun. :confused: Oh well, takes all kinds I guess.

Kestryll
12-04-2008, 11:52 PM
Kestryll, nothing in 12001 references 12125. So for the purposes of rostering, a frame would appear not to be defined as a firearm or handgun/pistol.

Okay.

The logic path that got me concerned was this:
the term "firearm" includes the frame or receiver of the weapon.-->...the term "any firearm" may be used in those sections, each firearm or the frame or receiver of the same shall constitute a distinct and separate offense under those sections.-->As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to
be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.-->As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."

Since the frame is designated as a 'firearm' and 'handgun' means 'firearm capable of being concealed upon the person' and a frame can be concealed could they argue that the frame is a handgun and thus roster-able?

nick
12-04-2008, 11:53 PM
The Mech Tech guys say this on their web page:

Legal Alert: This product is for sale to California dealers under limited conditions only. Although the product of itself is legal, the resulting combination with a pistol frame becomes illegal under California law. Please contact Mech-Tech for details relative to dealer sales in CA. At this time we know of no other states where the combination is not legal but we caution everyone to become aware of relative state and local laws.


Can anybody shed more light on this? Are they referring to CA's AW laws, since without some sort of magazine lock this would turn into a pistol-gripped centerfire rifle?

That reminds me... I need to go look at one of my 1911 guns and see if it looks like the regular magazine catch would still work properly and not pop out of position when pressed if the button portion was machined off to sit flush with the frame surface, or slightly below. ;)

A guy here on Calguns shaved off a part of the mag release on his Glock frame to accomodate for this.

hoffmang
12-04-2008, 11:53 PM
Black pistol legalities: making ownership of black rifles look easy.

The flow chart on these is going to be a PIA.

Note that a NRF pistol that has a detachable magazine can not have a forward hand grip - which is not the same as a forward pistol grip...

Here is the pertinent section of the law:

(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a
detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor,
forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely
encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon
without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the
barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the
capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.


-Gene

nick
12-04-2008, 11:54 PM
Yes, but I don't see why anybody would really want a mag-locked Glock carbine conversion thing that can never be re-assembled as a Glock handgun. :confused: Oh well, takes all kinds I guess.

Same reason we want a Hi-Point 9mm or .40 carbine - it's cool and shoots well :)

But it being interchangeable would be so much better, of course.

M. Sage
12-04-2008, 11:55 PM
Same reason we want a Hi-Point 9mm or .40 carbine - it's cool and shoots well :)

But it being interchangeable would be so much better, of course.

Yeah, but the locked mag is what I keep hanging up on. Seems to really cut the utility...

nick
12-04-2008, 11:58 PM
Okay.

The logic path that got me concerned was this:
the term "firearm" includes the frame or receiver of the weapon.-->...the term "any firearm" may be used in those sections, each firearm or the frame or receiver of the same shall constitute a distinct and separate offense under those sections.-->As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to
be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.-->As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."

Since the frame is designated as a 'firearm' and 'handgun' means 'firearm capable of being concealed upon the person' and a frame can be concealed could they argue that the frame is a handgun and thus roster-able?


But it doesn't expel a projectile through a barrel. It has no barrel. So the "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" part doesn't apply, since it's not a firearm yet.

hoffmang
12-04-2008, 11:58 PM
Okay.

The logic path that got me concerned was this:
the term "firearm" includes the frame or receiver of the weapon.-->...the term "any firearm" may be used in those sections, each firearm or the frame or receiver of the same shall constitute a distinct and separate offense under those sections.-->As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to
be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.-->As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."

Your logic error is in bold above. The term "firearm" includes the frame or receiver only in the specifically outlined Sections of which the Roster's section isn't one.

-Gene

nick
12-05-2008, 12:00 AM
The flow chart on these is going to be a PIA.

Note that a NRF pistol that has a detachable magazine can not have a forward hand grip - which is not the same as a forward pistol grip...

Here is the pertinent section of the law:


-Gene

Not too many handguns have a forward grip. Or am I missing something?

Kestryll
12-05-2008, 12:01 AM
Your logic error is in bold above. The term "firearm" includes the frame or receiver only in the specifically outlined Sections of which the Roster's section isn't one.

-Gene

Ahh.. okay.

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, I'm just looking for where they can try to trip us up.

elSquid
12-05-2008, 12:02 AM
As of now:
- We've just killed the Roster.
- We've just killed mag disconnects.
- We've just killed LCIs.
- We've just killed microstamping (again).


And one handgun per month as well.

Are there federal issues in play if an existing handgun is stripped to the frame, with the intent to reassemble with the same parts after the 4473? Maybe a "once a handgun, always a handgun" sort of thing? I don't know if the feds might take a dim view of this. Stripped frames could be used to circumvent multiple purchase reporting requirements.

Still, for virgin frames, this sounds excellent!

-- Michael

hoffmang
12-05-2008, 12:04 AM
Not too many handguns have a forward grip. Or am I missing something?

Nah. I just want an unlisted NRF Uzi...

-Gene

Kestryll
12-05-2008, 12:04 AM
One step at a time we're taking our rights back.

Damn this site never ceases to tickle the hell out of me!

69Mach1
12-05-2008, 12:05 AM
Nah. I just want an unlisted NRF Uzi...

-Gene

Me too, and a MAC10 (copy).

hoffmang
12-05-2008, 12:05 AM
And one handgun per month as well.

Are there federal issues in play if an existing handgun is stripped to the frame, with the intent to reassemble with the same parts after the 4473? Maybe a "once a handgun, always a handgun" sort of thing? I don't know if the feds might take a dim view of this. Stripped frames could be used to circumvent multiple purchase reporting requirements.

Still, for virgin frames, this sounds excellent!


Federal law is not state law. If you bought more than 1 NRF, an FFL would need to turn in the multiple handgun purchase form.

-Gene

CHS
12-05-2008, 12:06 AM
And one handgun per month as well.



Holy crap. I hadn't even thought about that. You're right.

There would be nothing wrong with receiving 10 1911 frames in one 4473/DROS transaction.

Oh
My
God.

More AWESOME unintended consequences :)

nick
12-05-2008, 12:07 AM
Nah. I just want an unlisted NRF Uzi...

-Gene

Uzi with a forward grip is an abomination :)

nick
12-05-2008, 12:08 AM
Federal law is not state law. If you bought more than 1 NRF, an FFL would need to turn in the multiple handgun purchase form.

-Gene

Even though it's not a handgun yet (or may never become one?)

elSquid
12-05-2008, 12:09 AM
Federal law is not state law. If you bought more than 1 NRF, an FFL would need to turn in the multiple handgun purchase form.

Fair enough.

New Gold Cup, here I come!

-- Michael

elSquid
12-05-2008, 12:11 AM
Holy crap. I hadn't even thought about that. You're right.

There would be nothing wrong with receiving 10 1911 frames in one 4473/DROS transaction.

Oh
My
God.

More AWESOME unintended consequences :)

No more HSC. No more safety demo.

-- Michael

ke6guj
12-05-2008, 12:12 AM
A stack of virgin frames would not need a multiple handgun purchase form filed out. Its specifically mentioned on the new 4473. Now, would that apply to a stack of disassembled frames, I dunno.


http://www.atf.gov/press/2008press/100308f4473_pt1_aug2008-sample-rev.pdf

nick
12-05-2008, 12:12 AM
No more HSC. No more safety demo.

-- Michael

Those are but a mild annoyance. Besides, it never hurts to refresh one's safety knowledge. For instance, do you still remember how to check for a loaded chamber in a handgun?

elSquid
12-05-2008, 12:14 AM
Those are but a mild annoyance. Besides, it never hurts to refresh one's safety knowledge. For instance, do you still remember how to check for a loaded chamber in a handgun?

Pull the trigger. Next question?

:)

-- Michael

Kestryll
12-05-2008, 12:14 AM
One last thought before bed, does this only apply to frames that have carbine conversions available to them?

Would the DOJ be able to argue that say a Browning Hi-Power frame could only be built in to a pistol or is that too speculative?

Per Gene's request in the other thread I'm wracking my brain for where they could try to blind side us or pitfalls we might be missing.

nick
12-05-2008, 12:14 AM
A stack of virgin frames would not need a multiple handgun purchase form filed out. Its specifically mentioned on the new 4473. Now, would that apply to a stack of disassembled frames, I dunno.

If you strip the lower receiver, it still goes by 'other' on the new 4473, right? What if it was registered as a pistol before? Then it remains a pistol, right? Just making sure.

nick
12-05-2008, 12:14 AM
Pull the trigger. Next question?

:)

-- Michael

Are you a danger to yourself or others? :p

nick
12-05-2008, 12:15 AM
One last thought before bed, does this only apply to frames that have carbine conversions available to them?

Would the DOJ be able to argue that say a Browning Hi-Power frame could only be built in to a pistol or is that too speculative?

Per Gene's request in the other thread I'm wracking my brain for where they could try to blind side us or pitfalls we might be missing.

Can't you build one yourself?

ke6guj
12-05-2008, 12:17 AM
One last thought before bed, does this only apply to frames that have carbine conversions available to them?

Would the DOJ be able to argue that say a Browning Hi-Power frame could only be built in to a pistol or is that too speculative?
I think it would be impossible to rule a specifc type of frame could only be built into a pistol. A long barrel could be made for just about anything, and a shoulder stock designed to fit somehow.

nick
12-05-2008, 12:17 AM
Personally, the issue that I see might be the handgun registration part.

Kestryll
12-05-2008, 12:18 AM
Can't you build one yourself?

Now there's a good response to that line of questioning.
As the MMG and U-15 have shown, just because it doesn't exist doesn't mean it can't.

ke6guj
12-05-2008, 12:18 AM
If you strip the lower receiver, it still goes by 'other' on the new 4473, right? What if it was registered as a pistol before? Then it remains a pistol, right? Just making sure.It would think that it goes down as "other". If the receiver was stripped down, how would the FFL know that is was a pistol once, and has to be 4473'ed as pistol?

Kestryll
12-05-2008, 12:20 AM
Why does this stuff always break in the middle of the night when i have to go to bed!?!

:D

nick
12-05-2008, 12:20 AM
Why does this stuff always break in the middle of the night when i have to go to bed!?!

:D

I thought you were in IT.

nick
12-05-2008, 12:22 AM
It would think that it goes down as "other". If the receiver was stripped down, how would the FFL know that is was a pistol once, and has to be 4473'ed as pistol?

That's a good question that needs to be figured out. For example, if a regular handgun is disassembled and the receiver is shipped here. On the other hand, in that case the handgun in question won't be registered though, since it'll come from a free state.

One can convert a handgun into a carbine though, if not the other way around, so I don't see why it can't be "other". And once it's a carbine, then it's a long gun and has nothing to do with the roster.

Now, if it's built as a handgun, after all, I still wonder about the registration part.

CHS
12-05-2008, 12:23 AM
Me too, and a MAC10 (copy).

The MAC is a perfect example of how this new situation is going to work in our favor.

So the MAC is a two-part gun very similar to the AR. You've got a lower receiver and an upper receiver. The lower receiver is the firearm, the upper receiver is just parts. Starting with a lower frame, which can be imported into CA since it's not a handgun, and therefore exempt from rostering, you can simply add the top to make a MAC pistol. Or you can add a stock and 16" top to make a carbine :)

Best part about the MAC is that without a threaded barrel, it doesn't have any AW pistol features. You can drop your mags.


If fact, you should be able to just go onto gunbroker and buy an off-list M11. Have the seller send you the top half directly, and send the bottom half to a dealer here. Once you pick up the receiver from your 10 days, just add the top half back to it :)

hoffmang
12-05-2008, 12:32 AM
A frame or receiver is a handgun for purposes of 12071. HSC is required. The dealer will have to do a modified safety demonstration as the handgun for 12071 is not any of a semiautomatic, double action revolver, or single action revolver.

A frame or receiver is a handgun for 12072 so you can not purchase more than one every 30 days without another exemption (C&R + COE, etc.).

A frame or receiver is a handgun for 12073 so you do have to complete the DROS and register at the time of purchase.

-Gene

thedrickel
12-05-2008, 12:33 AM
Why not wrap a fin around the glock frame so it's featureless? (with a fixed stock)

MudCamper
12-05-2008, 12:39 AM
Wow. Thanks Bill!

Ruger LCP FTW!

ivanimal
12-05-2008, 12:41 AM
Machine pistol FTW!:D

bohoki
12-05-2008, 8:29 AM
i'll believe it when i see it sparticus

essex frames for everybody

Kestryll
12-05-2008, 8:33 AM
i'll believe it when i see it sparticus

essex frames for everybody

I understand what you mean, I do believe it but I can't get the feeling that we're missing something.

Do what I'm doing since you're not sure, look for what has been missed and where DOJ might try to come back at us from.

If we can spot potential problems now and address them we'll be prepared to respond accurately when they come up later.

Theseus
12-05-2008, 8:40 AM
So I am trying to follow, and let me know if I understand this correctly.

(Yes, another in a line that will have questions. My brain is slow.)

This plan is ONLY to avoid the California Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale.

Since the PC that controls this certified roster does not define a frame as a firearm then we can import the frame only.

It does not exempt us from 1/30 days, it does not exempt us from handgun safety certificate, it does not exempt us from the cable lock requirement, and it does not exempt us from the safety demonstration, or any of the other rules and regulations pertaining to the legal purchase of handguns.

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 8:44 AM
I have a tentative price list for frames I'm importing to PRK Arms in my subforum. Subject to change. I'm working on figures.

Link: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=136065

nick
12-05-2008, 8:54 AM
Ruger LCP frame? :)

nick
12-05-2008, 8:55 AM
I mean, Ruger LCC frame? :)

Solidsnake87
12-05-2008, 9:01 AM
Wait, so does this mean I can get a Kimber Desert Warrior?????????

yellowfin
12-05-2008, 9:04 AM
I'll take a pair of S&W 6906's.

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 9:04 AM
Yes. Buy it, get it sent to me. I will detail strip it, send the frame to PRK and the rest of the parts to you.

sorensen440
12-05-2008, 9:06 AM
* Non-Rosterable Frames: (a.k.a NRFs), stripped handgun frame which aren't
Rosterable since they're not pistols - although eligible to be built into pistols.


So my question this morning is how stripped would these need to be ?

WokMaster1
12-05-2008, 9:07 AM
Breaking news!!!!!

A loud sobbing/crying/screaming/F Bill this & F Bill that, coming from behind the closed door of Alison Merilee's office.

End of breaking news.

nick
12-05-2008, 9:09 AM
Yes. Buy it, get it sent to me. I will detail strip it, send the frame to PRK and the rest of the parts to you.

You're on the short list to becoming my new best friend :)

CHS
12-05-2008, 9:10 AM
Yes. Buy it, get it sent to me. I will detail strip it, send the frame to PRK and the rest of the parts to you.

You might also want to start offering a service to remove barrel threads and clean them up with some cold blue for people that will start to import things like MAC clones.

25$? 50$? Dunno how much that sort of job is worth.

Fjold
12-05-2008, 9:12 AM
We are living in exciting times.

I think that I have a couple of brand new 1911 slides in the parts drawer also. This could get interesting.

CHS
12-05-2008, 9:13 AM
So my question this morning is how stripped would these need to be ?

For now, lets go with 100%, and start getting bare 1911 frames into the state. I know there are 3rd party Glock frames as well, but since I'm not a Glock guy I don't know what level of stripped they are.

Once the "Right people" start working out the details, we can push certain things.

I'm thinking:

- I buy a Sig P250 off of Gunbroker
- P250 gets sent to Freakshow, Freakshow removes the lock and sends it to my FFL.
- Freakshow sends me the slide, barrel, and frame directly.
- After 10 days I take my shiny new bare P250 lock home and drop it into my P250 frame and assemble the barrel and slide.

However, the P250 is a slightly different animal than a normal assembled pistol frame.

The first really big step is to start getting more FFL's on board!

Matt C
12-05-2008, 9:17 AM
Wow, I'm gone for one day...

Here is the problem I have with this (Devil's advocate, or DOJ's advocate..), and hopefully someone can address it and lay it to rest:

First you have PC 12125:

12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.

While I agree that a stripped frame is not a hand gun because it does not have a barrel, it becomes one when you build it up. So can someone explain to me again how that is not manufacturing? I know it has something to do with taxes and federal law, but it seems like a really gray area.

Fate
12-05-2008, 9:18 AM
Hee, hee. I can hear the sound of this button being repeatedly pressed in Sacto right now...

http://joystick101.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/panic_button.jpg

sorensen440
12-05-2008, 9:18 AM
For now, lets go with 100%, and start getting bare 1911 frames into the state. I know there are 3rd party Glock frames as well, but since I'm not a Glock guy I don't know what level of stripped they are.

Once the "Right people" start working out the details, we can push certain things.

I'm thinking:

- I buy a Sig P250 off of Gunbroker
- P250 gets sent to Freakshow, Freakshow removes the lock and sends it to my FFL.
- Freakshow sends me the slide, barrel, and frame directly.
- After 10 days I take my shiny new bare P250 lock home and drop it into my P250 frame and assemble the barrel and slide.

However, the P250 is a slightly different animal than a normal assembled pistol frame.

The first really big step is to start getting more FFL's on board!

Agreed
start with 100%
I could really see this going to a point where removing the barrel slide assembly may be enough in the future

sorensen440
12-05-2008, 9:18 AM
Hee, hee. I can hear the sound of this button being repeatedly pressed in Sacto right now...

http://joystick101.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/panic_button.jpg

I snuck in last night and pulled the battery's out of it ;)

tgriffin
12-05-2008, 9:19 AM
Gentlemen, my hat is off to you, yet again. Viva la resistance

DeeL2003
12-05-2008, 9:20 AM
Yes. Buy it, get it sent to me. I will detail strip it, send the frame to PRK and the rest of the parts to you.

Is this just for 1911's? Can you detail strip plastic fantastic guns too? So I can get a brand new HK45C or Sig P250 and have it sent to you first?

sorensen440
12-05-2008, 9:23 AM
I want an XDM
damn I wonder if they make 10 rnd mags for that LOL

nick
12-05-2008, 9:25 AM
Wow, I'm gone for one day...

Here is the problem I have with this (Devil's advocate, or DOJ's advocate..), and hopefully someone can address it and lay it to rest:

First you have PC 12125:



While I agree that a stripped frame is not a hand gun because it does not have a barrel, it becomes one when you build it up. So can someone explain to me again how that is not manufacturing? I know it has something to do with taxes and federal law, but it seems like a really gray area.

Are we manufacturing it, or assembling it? For instance, if one gets the OLL, parts kit, upper, etc. and assembles them into a rifle, he's not manufacturing a rifle, right? Otherwise he'd have to get an FFL.

rbgaynor
12-05-2008, 9:25 AM
While I agree that a stripped frame is not a hand gun because it does not have a barrel, it becomes one when you build it up. So can someone explain to me again how that is not manufacturing? I know it has something to do with taxes and federal law, but it seems like a really gray area.

Isn't this just the same as building up an OLL - no problems there with manufacturing that I'm aware of.

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 9:27 AM
So my question this morning is how stripped would these need to be ?
Essentially this procedure parallels an AR15 receiver, so it should be fine to send with just the upper slide assembly removed and receiver with parts installed, same as an AR15 receiver with LPK and stock assembly is transferred in.

Some might just want it as bare as possible. Putting together a 1911 frame that has already been fitted is very easy. Less than 5 minutes.

I have listed a transfer fee on my site for this operation. $50 plus shipping.

Matt C
12-05-2008, 9:28 AM
Are we manufacturing it, or assembling it? For instance, if one gets the OLL, parts kit, upper, etc. and assembles them into a rifle, he's not manufacturing a rifle, right? Otherwise he'd have to get an FFL.

Well I know if I assemble magazine parts into a large capacity magazine I'm manufacturing it.

It just seems logical to me that if something is not a handgun, and you make it into a handgun, you may have manufactured a handgun. I know that's what a DA will try to argue, I think we need to know what the defense will be.

M. Sage
12-05-2008, 9:29 AM
Are we manufacturing it, or assembling it? For instance, if one gets the OLL, parts kit, upper, etc. and assembles them into a rifle, he's not manufacturing a rifle, right? Otherwise he'd have to get an FFL.

We're assembling it. Having someone with an FFL (like a gunsmith) reassemble it for you may be manufacturing, though... I'm not sure on that one.

You bought a handgun, it's just that it's in a form that's exempt from the stupid roster law.

The frame is going to have to be registered at time of sale. The frame has a SN on the side of it, along with info like model and, uh, manufacturer.

Matt C
12-05-2008, 9:29 AM
Isn't this just the same as building up an OLL - no problems there with manufacturing that I'm aware of.

An OLL rifle is not subject to 12125, since it is a rifle.


You bought a handgun, it's just that it's in a form that's exempt from the stupid roster law.


I thought that the whole point was that you DIDN'T buy a handgun, since a handgun is a pistol and a pistol requires a barrel, which it didn't until you put it on, thus making it a pistol and an unsafe handgun...


The frame is going to have to be registered at time of sale. The frame has a SN on the side of it, along with info like model and, uh, manufacturer.

That's really irrelevant, 12125 does not say, "but if you registered it as a handgun somehow then you are exempt from this law". It says if you manufacture an unsafe handgun you are breaking the law. The SN is there yes (as required for Title 1 firearms manufactured by an FFL), and a "manufacturer", but if that manufacturer manufactured the frame as a Title 1, and not a pistol, then who manufactured the pistol? A DA will say you did.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
12-05-2008, 9:32 AM
Yes. Buy it, get it sent to me. I will detail strip it, send the frame to PRK and the rest of the parts to you.

Does this make you a stripper?



Serious post: Assembling / manufacturing differences are the same for rifles and handguns? So buying a handgun frame and assembling it into a handgun is (or isnt?) assembling the same way as buying an OLL and assembling it into a rifle?

We're assembling it. The frame is going to have to be registered at time of sale. The frame has a SN on the side of it, along with info like model and, uh, manufacturer.

I like this logic.

The point of all this is to bypass the Roster, yes? So once you've assembled a non-rostered handgun, it's completely legal to own it. Yes?

Kestryll
12-05-2008, 9:38 AM
I think we need to look at BWO's concern and run it out to see if it is a roadblock or if we have an answer that can stand up on it's own.

I'm really hoping for the latter but I want to make sure.

yellowfin
12-05-2008, 9:40 AM
Yes. Buy it, get it sent to me. I will detail strip it, send the frame to PRK and the rest of the parts to you.What will be the charge for this? We gotta figure out what it'll cost to do 2 FFL transfers plus the service fee.

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 9:41 AM
Well I know if I assemble magazine parts into a large capacity magazine I'm manufacturing it.

It just seems logical to me that if something is not a handgun, and you make it into a handgun, you may have manufactured a handgun. I know that's what a DA will try to argue, I think we need to know what the defense will be.
Once the frame, which is the firearm, is transferred, any act of addition of parts is gunsmithing. You can't make a firearm out of a firearm that has already been transferred, unless you are making a Title I firearm into a Title II firearm.

If you buy a AR15 receiver and get it transferred then build it to a complete rifle, you are not manufacturing a firearm, you are gunsmithing on a firearm.

CHS
12-05-2008, 9:43 AM
What will be the charge for this? We gotta figure out what it'll cost to do 2 FFL transfers plus the service fee.

Gun $$ + 50$ to freakshow + your dealers transfer fees = total $$

If I buy a Sig P250 for 550$, it gets sent to freakshow and he charges me 50$ to remove the lock and send it to my FFL. My FFL then charges me 70$ (including DROS) to receive and transfer the firearm for me.

Total cost: $670

Basically, it's 50$ on top of what it would normally cost you to import a rostered firearm.

Matt C
12-05-2008, 9:44 AM
Serious post: Assembling / manufacturing differences are the same for rifles and handguns? So buying a handgun frame and assembling it into a handgun is (or isnt?) assembling the same way as buying an OLL and assembling it into a rifle?


It isn't, for at least two reasons. One is that handguns need to be registered (that ok since it's done automatically when you DROS your frame, even though it's not a handgun yet).

Two is that handguns is CA are subject to 12125, and unlike rifles, manufacturing an unsafe one is illegal. The question is are we manufacturing?

Matt C
12-05-2008, 9:45 AM
Once the frame, which is the firearm, is transferred, any act of addition of parts is gunsmithing. You can't make a firearm out of a firearm that has already been transferred, unless you are making a Title I firearm into a Title II firearm.

If you buy a AR15 receiver and get it transferred then build it to a complete rifle, you are not manufacturing a firearm, you are gunsmithing on a firearm.

That's federal law, not CA state law.

Matt C
12-05-2008, 9:47 AM
I think we need to look at BWO's concern and run it out to see if it is a roadblock or if we have an answer that can stand up on it's own.

I'm really hoping for the latter but I want to make sure.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, I just don't want to jump the gun here. Having been there done that, and knowing how the law REALLY works when you get to court, you need something stronger than what I have seen here so far.

DeeL2003
12-05-2008, 9:51 AM
Gun $$ + 50$ to freakshow + your dealers transfer fees = total $$

If I buy a Sig P250 for 550$, it gets sent to freakshow and he charges me 50$ to remove the lock and send it to my FFL. My FFL then charges me 70$ (including DROS) to receive and transfer the firearm for me.

Total cost: $670

Basically, it's 50$ on top of what it would normally cost you to import a rostered firearm.


I'm assuming Freakshow can detail strip all kinds of handguns not just 1911's. Correct? Niiice!!!

One other note......
How do you convince an out of state shop like CDNN, to ship a "not legal for sale in the PRK firearm" to Freakshow when the buyer is from the PRK? I'm sure they're afraid to get into legal trouble for this.

elSquid
12-05-2008, 9:54 AM
Two is that handguns is CA are subject to 12125, and unlike rifles, manufacturing an unsafe one is illegal. The question is are we manufacturing?

How did homebuilt AK pistols pass muster then? Wouldn't bending and serializing a flat be closer to the true meaning of "manufacture" than simply adding parts to a virgin 1911 frame?

-- Michael

Kestryll
12-05-2008, 9:56 AM
How did homebuilt AK pistols pass muster then? Wouldn't bending and serializing a flat be closer to the true meaning of "manufacture" than simply adding parts to a virgin 1911 frame?

-- Michael

Now that's a good point, what was the path around manufacturing for the AR/AK pistols?

Spyduh
12-05-2008, 9:57 AM
I've been talking with Toolbox about the idea of building a stripped 1911 for a quite a few days now before this post on CGN. I've also done extensive research and discovered that building a 1911 from a stripped frame is not as easy as building an AR. I obviously wanted to build my own custom 1911 from a strip lower, but found that it's much easier and cheaper to start off with a basic GI 1911 and build from there on up.

If you don't believe me, do your own research and google "build a 1911". There are some people that say it's as easy as buying a stripped frame and getting a cheap Sarco kit or piecemeal expensive parts. While the majority of the feedback points out that it's a pain in the *** with parts not fitting and etc problems that they run along. (Parts will need to be fitted for every gun. Metal from the slide and etc. parts will need to be filed/shaved off. Very likely if you don't have any experience, you could build a loose fitting frame and slide.)

You should always account for the time and tools it will take to finish a 1911 project. Tools alone will cost a few hundred dollars to $500 dollars if you don't already have it. It's really a huge undertaking and needs deep consideration if you have the time, money and gun smith knowledge to build one actually from scratch.

With Freakshow's fitted parts, it seems pretty easy. It's a great option for those that do not have any gun smith knowledge.


*Sorry to burst any bubbles, but I need to make this clear before people who haven't done their research start buying these things and making really expensive door stops*

nick
12-05-2008, 9:58 AM
That's really irrelevant, 12125 does not say, "but if you registered it as a handgun somehow then you are exempt from this law". It says if you manufacture an unsafe handgun you are breaking the law. The SN is there yes (as required for Title 1 firearms manufactured by an FFL), and a "manufacturer", but if that manufacturer manufactured the frame as a Title 1, and not a pistol, then who manufactured the pistol? A DA will say you did.

How does it work with the AK pistols then? They're not on the list.

JeffM
12-05-2008, 9:59 AM
Now that's a good point, what was the path around manufacturing for the AR/AK pistols?

All the ones I know of were built single-shot, dimentionaly compliant, and roster-exempt.

sorensen440
12-05-2008, 10:00 AM
I've been talking with Toolbox about the idea of building a stripped 1911 for a quite a few days now before this post on CGN. I've also done extensive research and discovered that building a 1911 from a stripped frame is not as easy as building an AR. I obviously wanted to build my own custom 1911 from a strip lower, but found that it's much easier and cheaper to start off with a basic GI 1911 and build from there on up.

If you don't believe me, do your own research and google "build a 1911". There are some people that say it's as easy as buying a stripped frame and getting a cheap Sarco kit or piecemeal expensive parts. While the majority of the feedback points out that it's a pain in the *** with parts not fitting and etc problems that they run along. (Parts will need to be fitted for every gun. Metal from the slide and etc. parts will need to be filed/shaved off. Very likely if you don't have any experience, you could build a loose fitting frame and slide.)

You should always account for the time and tools it will take to finish a 1911 project. Tools alone will cost a few hundred dollars to $500 dollars if you don't already have it. It's really a huge undertaking and needs deep consideration if you have the time, money and gun smith knowledge to build one actually from scratch.

With Freakshow's fitted parts, it seems pretty easy. It's a great option for those that do not have any gun smith knowledge.


*Sorry to burst any bubbles, but I need to make this clear before people who haven't done their research start buying these things and making really expensive door stops*

We are not discussing anything to do with fitting a frame
simply re-assembling after imported with parts removed

nick
12-05-2008, 10:02 AM
I've been talking with Toolbox about the idea of building a stripped 1911 for a quite a few days now before this post on CGN. I've also done extensive research and discovered that building a 1911 from a stripped frame is not as easy as building an AR. I obviously wanted to build my own custom 1911 from a strip lower, but found that it's much easier and cheaper to start off with a basic GI 1911 and build from there on up.

If you don't believe me, do your own research and google "build a 1911". There are some people that say it's as easy as buying a stripped frame and getting a cheap Sarco kit or piecemeal expensive parts. While the majority of the feedback points out that it's a pain in the *** with parts not fitting and etc problems that they run along. (Parts will need to be fitted for every gun. Metal from the slide and etc. parts will need to be filed/shaved off. Very likely if you don't have any experience, you could build a loose fitting frame and slide.)

You should always account for the time and tools it will take to finish a 1911 project. Tools alone will cost a few hundred dollars to $500 dollars if you don't already have it. It's really a huge undertaking and needs deep consideration if you have the time, money and gun smith knowledge to build one actually from scratch.

With Freakshow's fitted parts, it seems pretty easy. It's a great option for those that do not have any gun smith knowledge.


*Sorry to burst any bubbles, but I need to make this clear before people who haven't done their research start buying these things and making really expensive door stops*

UNless it's already fitted at the factory and stripped at Freakshow.

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 10:07 AM
You might also want to start offering a service to remove barrel threads and clean them up with some cold blue for people that will start to import things like MAC clones.

25$? 50$? Dunno how much that sort of job is worth.
PRK Arms is the sole distributor for Masterpiece Arms MAC 10 type pistols in California. They offer the service of turning the threads off barrels. I'm just the middle man.

Matt C
12-05-2008, 10:08 AM
How did homebuilt AK pistols pass muster then? Wouldn't bending and serializing a flat be closer to the true meaning of "manufacture" than simply adding parts to a virgin 1911 frame?

-- Michael

If it was not built initially to be roster compliant than I really don't know, good question.

Spyduh
12-05-2008, 10:09 AM
We are not discussing anything to do with fitting a frame
simply re-assembling after imported with parts removed

The original thread started off with the idea of importing stripped 1911 frames to be built as (marked) rifle/carbines then moved toward the general idea of 1911 stripped frames. If we are just talking about disassembly and reassembly, this would circumvent the logic of a "stripped frame" that was first conceived in the original thread. The Manufacture would have already put the serial # in their bound book as a pistol, this would require it to go through the CA handgun roster and be approved before importation.

A true stripped 1911 frame would require fitting. I'm merely just informing the public before they get all big eyed and jump on the boat with out making a logical informed decision before purchasing a 1911 stripped frame.

Say if you bought a stripped frame, what do people do with it? They build it! And with out proper gunsmith knowledge they will have a hell of a time fitting the parts together.

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 10:12 AM
If it was not built initially to be roster compliant than I really don't know, good question.
Built as a single shot, registered, 10rd mag. Done.

SigShooter
12-05-2008, 10:14 AM
I've been talking with Toolbox about the idea of building a stripped 1911 for a quite a few days now before this post on CGN. I've also done extensive research and discovered that building a 1911 from a stripped frame is not as easy as building an AR. I obviously wanted to build my own custom 1911 from a strip lower, but found that it's much easier and cheaper to start off with a basic GI 1911 and build from there on up.

If you don't believe me, do your own research and google "build a 1911". There are some people that say it's as easy as buying a stripped frame and getting a cheap Sarco kit or piecemeal expensive parts. While the majority of the feedback points out that it's a pain in the *** with parts not fitting and etc problems that they run along. (Parts will need to be fitted for every gun. Metal from the slide and etc. parts will need to be filed/shaved off. Very likely if you don't have any experience, you could build a loose fitting frame and slide.)

You should always account for the time and tools it will take to finish a 1911 project. Tools alone will cost a few hundred dollars to $500 dollars if you don't already have it. It's really a huge undertaking and needs deep consideration if you have the time, money and gun smith knowledge to build one actually from scratch.

With Freakshow's fitted parts, it seems pretty easy. It's a great option for those that do not have any gun smith knowledge.


*Sorry to burst any bubbles, but I need to make this clear before people who haven't done their research start buying these things and making really expensive door stops*

The excitement here is that we are not looking at building off an x% receiver, but rather buying a 100% off the rack handgun that is not on the roster. Having it shipped to a willing FFL out of state (Freakshow for example), them stripping it and sending the frame to your local FFL. So you are buying a complete handgun, fitted and finished in the factory. All you have to do is reassemble the parts.

This is very exciting as most of the pistols I have dreamed about have always been "off roster". However, I will let "The Right People" (TM) work this out before jumping into the fray.

(edited to add: I really need to hit refresh before replying... others have addressed this LONG before I did... :rolleyes: )

Matt C
12-05-2008, 10:14 AM
Built as a single shot, registered, 10rd mag. Done.

I don't think a 1911 is going to meet the length requirements....

dfletcher
12-05-2008, 10:16 AM
So does this all mean that the 1911 frame I've owned since '98 that was registered as a handgun (but NEVER built into anything) can be one of those cool carbines? Can a pistol/pistol frame be "un-registered" as a handgun in the same manner that an AW can be "un-registered by removing "features?"

This might be one of those "good news/bad news" scenarios. You're talking Mech Tech, right? Once you put the 1911 frame on the Mech Tech unit, legally (from ATF's point of view) that 1911 handgun frame has become a rifle and can not later be reconfigured as a handgun. So my thinking would be that in 1998 you could have slapped that frame on a Mech Tech with no problems, so long as you fixed the mag.

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 10:19 AM
The Manufacture would have already put the serial # in their bound book as a pistol, this would require it to go through the CA handgun roster and be approved before importation.
If the frame is sent to the FFL it is a frame that's being transferred out, not a pistol.

A true stripped 1911 frame would require fitting. I'm merely just informing the public before they get all big eyed and jump on the boat with out making a logical informed decision before purchasing a 1911 stripped frame.

Correct. This is also why we have lawyers looking into it. Worst case scenario we send them in single shot exempt, since we all know that works and is solid.

We are going to stay with the frame situations as long as we can. It might be a hurry up and get these done while we can thing too.

Spyduh
12-05-2008, 10:21 AM
The excitement here is that we are not looking at building off an x% receiver, but rather buying a 100% off the rack handgun that is not on the roster. Having it shipped to a willing FFL out of state (Freakshow for example), them stripping it and sending the frame to your local FFL. So you are buying a complete handgun, fitted and finished in the factory. All you have to do is reassemble the parts.

This is very exciting as most of the pistols I have dreamed about have always been "off roster". However, I will let "The Right People" (TM) work this out before jumping into the fray.

(edited to add: I really need to hit refresh before replying... others have addressed this LONG before I did... :rolleyes: )

I was not referring to a 60/70/80/90% receiver. Those don't need to be registered and no FFL is needed to ship to your door step directly. I was referring to stripped 1911 frames like the one "Doublestar" makes. That to me sounds risky because it started its life out as a pistol and is still a pistol even if stripped. The original thread was about real stripped frames that are written in the bound book as "Frames" not "rifles or pistols". It's the same logic used when building an AR "pistol" frame. It can't start its life off as a "rifle" frame then be made as a "pistol" frame. If you did, you just created a SBR!

Once a rifle always a rifle. Once a pistol always a pistol! Regardless if it was stripped naked

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 10:23 AM
I don't think a 1911 is going to meet the length requirements....
It will with a long *** barrel. 6.5" barrel with 10.5" OAL. I measured from the beavertail to dust cover on my Kimber Pro Carry frame. 6.5 inches. We only need 4 more inches OAL for the OAL length. A 6.5 inch barrel will barely clear this. If I just get 7 or 7.5 inch barrels to install and lock the mag in place, it will be single shot exempt.

dfletcher
12-05-2008, 10:23 AM
So Mech Tech upper being interchangeable with the regular Glock or 1911 slide on a regular basis won't work then. Pity.

In theory, no. Although as a practical matter I've not known anyone to disassemble their 1911, pop the frame onto the Mech Tech then do the reverse in public - flaunting the "no pistol reconfiguration" prohibition.

What the "buy a frame only" does is make it relatively inexpensive to assemble a Mech Tech with a commited 1911 frame. Buy a basic frame & parts on the cheap instead of buying a complete 1911. And virtually no fitting for the 1911 frame to the Mech Tech. So long as you have a good trigger pull, you have a good Mech Tech carbine.

QuarterBoreGunner
12-05-2008, 10:25 AM
Totally unrelated; but I truly wish that all the posters from other states on other gun boards, that have denigrated, maligned and basically written off the gun owners of the Great State of California, could read this thread.

Hats off to the will power, determination and ingenuity of the Californian gun owner.

Matt C
12-05-2008, 10:28 AM
It will with a long *** barrel. 6.5" barrel with 10.5" OAL. I measured from the beavertail to dust cover on my Kimber Pro Carry frame. 6.5 inches. We only need 4 more inches OAL for the OAL length. A 6.5 inch barrel will barely clear this. If I just get 7 or 7.5 inch barrels to install and lock the mag in place, it will be single shot exempt.

Sounds good to me. Anyone know of source for HK45 8in barrels?:43:

SDJim
12-05-2008, 10:29 AM
I've been talking with Toolbox about the idea of building a stripped 1911 for a quite a few days now before this post on CGN. I've also done extensive research and discovered that building a 1911 from a stripped frame is not as easy as building an AR. I obviously wanted to build my own custom 1911 from a strip lower, but found that it's much easier and cheaper to start off with a basic GI 1911 and build from there on up.

If you don't believe me, do your own research and google "build a 1911". There are some people that say it's as easy as buying a stripped frame and getting a cheap Sarco kit or piecemeal expensive parts. While the majority of the feedback points out that it's a pain in the *** with parts not fitting and etc problems that they run along. (Parts will need to be fitted for every gun. Metal from the slide and etc. parts will need to be filed/shaved off. Very likely if you don't have any experience, you could build a loose fitting frame and slide.)

You should always account for the time and tools it will take to finish a 1911 project. Tools alone will cost a few hundred dollars to $500 dollars if you don't already have it. It's really a huge undertaking and needs deep consideration if you have the time, money and gun smith knowledge to build one actually from scratch.

With Freakshow's fitted parts, it seems pretty easy. It's a great option for those that do not have any gun smith knowledge.

*Sorry to burst any bubbles, but I need to make this clear before people who haven't done their research start buying these things and making really expensive door stops*

If your assembling a previously disassembled 1911 (or any pistol for that matter), this should be a non-issue as the frame to slide fitting should have already been done at the factory. Same goes for a matched frame & slide set from Caspian ) for example.
Just like building an AR, a good quality frame / slide / parts kit should fit together with minimal effort.

Having said that, a 1911 assembled from parts may not be the most accurate pistol out of the box, but it should function and be capable of shooting MOM (minute of man) @ 25 yards.

Just like building an AR, you'll get what you pay for.

YMMV

dfletcher
12-05-2008, 10:31 AM
The Mech Tech guys say this on their web page:

Legal Alert: This product is for sale to California dealers under limited conditions only. Although the product of itself is legal, the resulting combination with a pistol frame becomes illegal under California law. Please contact Mech-Tech for details relative to dealer sales in CA. At this time we know of no other states where the combination is not legal but we caution everyone to become aware of relative state and local laws.


Can anybody shed more light on this? Are they referring to CA's AW laws, since without some sort of magazine lock this would turn into a pistol-gripped centerfire rifle?

That reminds me... I need to go look at one of my 1911 guns and see if it looks like the regular magazine catch would still work properly and not pop out of position when pressed if the button portion was machined off to sit flush with the frame surface, or slightly below. ;)

One of the problems with these multi page threads is I can't look ahead to see if this has already been answered, but here goes.

Yes, Mech Tech is addressing CA AW laws with that line. Assembling with an unmodified 1911 or Glock creates an AW because of the PG/detach mag combo.

I've done the dished out 1911 mag release & had the same concern, but it does indeed stay in place. If the Mech Tech set up becomes popular I predict one of our metal manufacturing "capitalist pig" ;) members will turn out some sort of BB cover so that 1911 mag modification is not needed. In the meantime, Para Ordnance's mag releases are plastic & easy as hell to work with - why grind steel when you can shave plastic?

Remember the Mech Tech is not a firearm so it can be shipped direct to your door - no wait, no DROS, no fees. Mech Tech + BB = Instant Gratification.

ke6guj
12-05-2008, 10:32 AM
Totally unrelated; but I truly wish that all the posters from other states on other gun boards, that have denigrated, maligned and basically written off the gun owners of the Great State of California, could read this thread.
.They don't care. On another forum, I replied to a post where a guy wanted a 100% right side plate for a 1919a4-type semi-auto, and the manufacturer stated "no CA sales" even though it is not illegal in CA. I suggested to theguy who wanted it, that if he really wanted it, to use a middleman FFL like freakshow. Man, I got jumped on for trying to undermine the manufacturer of the plates by suggesting a way to "circumvent" his sales policy.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
12-05-2008, 10:34 AM
I was not referring to a 60/70/80/90% receiver. Those don't need to be registered and no FFL is needed to ship to your door step directly. I was referring to stripped 1911 frames like the one "Doublestar" makes. That to me sounds risky because it started its life out as a pistol and is still a pistol even if stripped. The original thread was about real stripped frames that are written in the bound book as "Frames" not "rifles or pistols". It's the same logic used when building an AR "pistol" frame. It can't start its life off as a "rifle" frame then be made as a "pistol" frame. If you did, you just created a SBR!

Once a rifle always a rifle. Once a pistol always a pistol! Regardless if it was stripped naked

The logic in my head disagrees. Somebody could make an AR pistol, then disassemble it and ship you the OLL. It's at that point that it loses it's handgun status, because it's only a lower, and it can be built into anything. Same with any other gun that started it's life as a handgun and could potentially be disassembled and made into something else.

Matt C
12-05-2008, 10:37 AM
The logic in my head disagrees. Somebody could make an AR pistol, then disassemble it and ship you the OLL. It's at that point that it loses it's handgun status, because it's only a lower, and it can be built into anything. Same with any other gun that started it's life as a handgun and could potentially be disassembled and made into something else.

ATF and Logic don't really go hand in hand.

Spyduh
12-05-2008, 10:39 AM
The logic in my head disagrees. Somebody could make an AR pistol, then disassemble it and ship you the OLL. It's at that point that it loses it's handgun status, because it's only a lower, and it can be built into anything. Same with any other gun that started it's life as a handgun and could potentially be disassembled and made into something else.

I'll let the AR Pistol experts jump in with their comments and explain to you how your logic is flawed.

Again. It's very simple. Once a rifle always a rifle. Once a pistol always a pistol. No matter if its stripped and rebuilt some where else. The bound book determines what it's life is and will always be. Period!

If you imported a rifle frame and put a rifle upper on it it becomes a rifle. Stripping it down and rebuilding it and putting on a 7" upper does not make it a pistol AR. Whoever that did that would have just created a SBR and will be taken to fed jail.

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 10:44 AM
The bound book determines what it's life is and will always be. Period!
False.

If you imported a rifle frame and put a rifle upper on it it becomes a rifle. Stripping it down and rebuilding it and putting on a 7" upper does not make it a pistol AR. Whoever that did that would have just created a SBR and will be taken to fed jail.
The issue isn't the barrel length, its the shoulder stock. Once a receiver/frame has a shoulder stock attached it is either a rifle or shotgun or SBR or SBS.

lioneaglegriffin
12-05-2008, 10:49 AM
THERE IS A SANTA!!!!

i want a XD(M)

:jump:

Spyduh
12-05-2008, 10:54 AM
False.


To my understanding from what I have read and gathered from other threads about AR pistols. That the manufacture either labels the receiver as 3 things.
1. Long Gun (Rifle/Shotgun)
2. Pistol
3. Frame

Well use an example to clarify this logic.

Doublestar registers a newly produced virgin receiver frame as a "long gun" in their bound book. (Note: I don't know what actual label that they really put for a stripped frame. But for this purposes sake we'll just say it's marked as a "long gun"). It gets shipped to XYZ 07 Gun Store in Texas/etc state. They then build it up as a single sled shot AR "pistol" with maglock and ship it to CA to a buyer. Wouldn't this be considered still a "long gun"?

Please help me understand the logic of what it actually would be.

dfletcher
12-05-2008, 10:56 AM
So the catalyst for all this change is the "frame only is OK" - correct? And as a practical matter applies to semi autos mostly, any reason why a Dan Wesson revolver frame only (parts to be shipped later) can not be treated the same way?

I've traveled up & down the thread and am still a bit lost. Is there any way someone could do a round up of what got this started, what broke DOJ on this, etc? I'm not being lazy, but really am missing some key points here.

Bad Voodoo
12-05-2008, 10:59 AM
Yes, I just wanted to take this moment to thank our leadership FFLs. You know who you are.

:cheers2:

Not only for these FFLs, but for all you legal-types who are in the trenches pulling these laws apart as well. WAY too many people to call out separately. You know who you are. :D

Kestryll
12-05-2008, 11:00 AM
The bound book determines what it's life is and will always be. Period!
False.

Okay, just for reference.

'False' does not educate anyone, when you make a statement like this please back it up with the information you used to determine that his statement is false.
It saves a lot of back and forth and presents your argument in a much less confrontational manner.

Dirtbiker
12-05-2008, 11:08 AM
Can someone make a sticky that spells all this out. All this thread did was confuse me...

I'd like to buy one of the RIA 1911 frames and a Sarco 1911 builders kit and build my first 1911... That's it.

eltee
12-05-2008, 11:10 AM
OK, I buy the frame of a gun that is not on the roster. It is DROS'd and the box "Frame Only" is checked off on the DROS form. I wait 10 days and pickup my frame only. I get the other parts and assemble a working off-list handgun. Cool.

If I later go to sell it PPT, it's all good?

If I try to trade it in on something at a gunstore, would the dealer be reluctant to take it in since if the store tries to re-sell it, it becomes a roster-compliance-required firearm?

Line me up for that Ruger LCP :D

DeeL2003
12-05-2008, 11:14 AM
Can someone make a sticky that spells all this out. All this thread did was confuse me...

I'd like to buy one of the RIA 1911 frames and a Sarco 1911 builders kit and build my first 1911... That's it.


+1 This huge thread's got me confused. 12 hour night shifts sure have made my brain work even slower. :p

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 11:14 AM
Okay, just for reference.

'False' does not educate anyone, when you make a statement like this please back it up with the information you used to determine that his statement is false.
It saves a lot of back and forth and presents your argument in a much less confrontational manner.
Fair enough. This has been covered many times before here but I will do it again.

The bound book does not determine in any way shape or form what the status of a firearm is. A manufacturer can put down "rifle frame" or "pistol frame" and it is treated as a "frame" regardless. There is no distinction between a frame/receiver for handguns or long guns. A bound book entry cannot change the status of a firearm.

The status that separates a handgun from a long gun is the question to if a shoulder stock was ever attached to the frame/receiver. If it has, it is then always some sort of long gun. Choose one from this list and apply it:

Barrel 16 inches or longer
Rifle
Shogun

Barrel less than 16 inches
Short Barrel Rifle
Short Barrel Shotgun

If no shoulder stock has been attached you can put any length barrel you want on it. If it is a handgun and you attach a shoulder stock to it with a 16+ inch barrel it is now a rifle (or shotgun depending on bore). You cannot convert it back to a handgun as since the frame/receiver has had a shoulder stock attached to it, you will fall under the NFA for making a short barrel rifle or shotgun.

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 11:15 AM
OK, I buy the frame of a gun that is not on the roster. It is DROS'd and the box "Frame Only" is checked off on the DROS form. I wait 10 days and pickup my frame only. I get the other parts and assemble a working off-list handgun. Cool.

If I later go to sell it PPT, it's all good?

If I try to trade it in on something at a gunstore, would the dealer be reluctant to take it in since if the store tries to re-sell it, it becomes a roster-compliance-required firearm?

Line me up for that Ruger LCP :D
I'm thinking it would be PPT only.

hoffmang
12-05-2008, 11:16 AM
There are a couple of questions that I need to address.

The frame or receiver of a firearm is a pistol or handgun for the the sections of the law that require:
HSC
10 day wait
DROS/registration
1 handgun in 30 days
Perform safe handling demonstration

The frame or receiver is not a handgun for 12125 (Not unsafe roster.) As such, there is no requirement that a frame be on the roster to transfer it.

However, one can still not manufacture an unsafe handgun. However, there is a distinction between licensed gun smith work and unlicensed assembly. If RPK builds a 1911 from a frame it has to be rostered when complete. If you take your rostered handgun and put on different grips so that it now is identical to a non rostered handgun you have not manufactured.

The way home bent pistol flats got around the roster/manufacture issue was to use the single shot exemption. However, assembling a 1911 on an already manufactured serialized DROSed and registered to you frame is not manufacturing.

-Gene

FreedomIsNotFree
12-05-2008, 11:18 AM
OK, I buy the frame of a gun that is not on the roster. It is DROS'd and the box "Frame Only" is checked off on the DROS form. I wait 10 days and pickup my frame only. I get the other parts and assemble a working off-list handgun. Cool.

If I later go to sell it PPT, it's all good?

If I try to trade it in on something at a gunstore, would the dealer be reluctant to take it in since if the store tries to re-sell it, it becomes a roster-compliance-required firearm?

Line me up for that Ruger LCP :D

LEO's can sell their handguns to the public, even those that were roster exempt because of their LEO status. At minimum, I would suspect there is an equal protection issue. And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but once a LEO uses their LEO status to bring a rostered handgun in to the state, its in and can be transferred within the state multiple times.

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 11:19 AM
However, assembling a 1911 on an already manufactured serialized DROSed and registered to you frame is not manufacturing.

-Gene
That is the key.

yellowfin
12-05-2008, 11:25 AM
If i'm understanding this correctly, this means there will be two purchases, one for the frame which goes to the FFL and the other for the parts kit which can ship directly to you.

nrakid88
12-05-2008, 11:25 AM
OMG ar pistol in 50 beo for my 21st birthday. I'll be saving for it now

wolf13
12-05-2008, 11:31 AM
If i'm understanding this correctly, this means there will be two purchases, one for the frame which goes to the FFL and the other for the parts kit which can ship directly to you.

I think most people are talking about 1 purchase for a gun NOT on the safe list. It then goes to freakshow who field strips it. You get sent the parts separately, and then the frame gets sent to your FFL, and you go through the normal process. Go home, and then put it together. That is what I am understanding at least.

CHS
12-05-2008, 11:33 AM
Can someone make a sticky that spells all this out. All this thread did was confuse me...

I'd like to buy one of the RIA 1911 frames and a Sarco 1911 builders kit and build my first 1911... That's it.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=135954

That's the original thread that started all of this and answers all the questions.

CHS
12-05-2008, 11:36 AM
And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but once a LEO uses their LEO status to bring an off-roster handgun in to the state, its in and can be transferred within the state multiple times.

Read above for correction

M. D. Van Norman
12-05-2008, 11:38 AM
Thanks to Bill, I had only about four hours of sleep last night. Now, I have a couple more questions.

Is there any chance this development would affect the alleged limitation on the purchase of C&R handguns in PC 12078? I have my own intermediary FFL in Utah, but it would sure be nice to trade relic handguns with my fellow CalGunners without having to hassle our local dealers.

Who are the leadership FFLs in southern California? I’ll be good for a Caspian frame or two. :D

383green
12-05-2008, 11:48 AM
OMG ar pistol in 50 beo for my 21st birthday. I'll be saving for it now

:eek: Me wantee!! :eek:

Mute
12-05-2008, 11:57 AM
Wow. Might be time for me to open that bottle of Macallan 25. Next to the AWB the handgun roster stuck in my claw more than any other gun law, especially because of the LEO exemption. To me, that was one of the worst violators of equal protection under the law.

383green
12-05-2008, 12:01 PM
stuck in my claw

Not claw; craw! ;)

shawnyteee
12-05-2008, 12:01 PM
FUSION ARMS 1911!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMAGOD OMAGODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD YES! FUSION NERFS 1911 FRAMES AND SLIDE!

Spyduh
12-05-2008, 12:08 PM
I think most people are talking about 1 purchase for a gun NOT on the safe list. It then goes to freakshow who field strips it. You get sent the parts separately, and then the frame gets sent to your FFL, and you go through the normal process. Go home, and then put it together. That is what I am understanding at least.

That was my understanding as well and responded to the other persons comment about stripping an already pre-fitted factory gun not on the list. Which is why I was saying in my earlier posts about once a pistol always a pistol. It was already made at the manufacture as a pistol and stripping it down doesn't make it a "frame" again. It's still a pistol w/o parts that needs to go through the Roster and CA pistol laws.

People got to happy and didn't read the first thread clearly about "stripped frames". It's not the same as stripping pistols down to frames and shipping the parts directly to you and going to the FFL to register it. It would still be a pistol!

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 12:09 PM
Who are the leadership FFLs in southern California? I’ll be good for a Caspian frame or two. :D
Don't know. So far it's me and PRK Arms doing the spearheading on this operation.

Saigon1965
12-05-2008, 12:24 PM
Thanks - This made my year -

Matt C
12-05-2008, 12:25 PM
However, assembling a 1911 on an already manufactured serialized DROSed and registered to you frame is not manufacturing.


Not that I don't believe you, but can you spell out why that is exactly?

NSR500
12-05-2008, 12:28 PM
Very good news, Thank you!!!

wolf13
12-05-2008, 12:29 PM
That was my understanding as well and responded to the other persons comment about stripping an already pre-fitted factory gun not on the list. Which is why I was saying in my earlier posts about once a pistol always a pistol. It was already made at the manufacture as a pistol and stripping it down doesn't make it a "frame" again. It's still a pistol w/o parts that needs to go through the Roster and CA pistol laws.

People got to happy and didn't read the first thread clearly about "stripped frames". It's not the same as stripping pistols down to frames and shipping the parts directly to you and going to the FFL to register it. It would still be a pistol!

So you CAN'T get a safegun list guns such as the hk45? I understand it the same way as you do, that you are buying a pistol, but not sure how the law reads exactly.

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 12:30 PM
Manufacturing is when you build or add parts to a firearm and offer it for sale or redistribution. Since the transfer is already completed there is no offering for sale or redistribution. This is an act of gunsmithing.

Parallel this once again with an AR15 lower. You get the bare lower transferred to you. You build the rifle. It is not manufacturing.

If there are parts added or assembled prior to the transfer, it's manufacturing. If it's done after the transfer, it's gunsmithing.

ke6guj
12-05-2008, 12:34 PM
So you CAN'T get a safegun list guns such as the hk45?.You guys need to relax and take a breath.

Plus we are now in a position where we can be more aggressive: some additional favorable OLL paperwork should soon be in the offing.



I'm gonna ask that folks hold off for a very short time, including extensive discussion, til we drop in the support into place - but transfers should begin fairly shortly by one or more "Leadership FFLs" in California.

CHS
12-05-2008, 12:37 PM
That was my understanding as well and responded to the other persons comment about stripping an already pre-fitted factory gun not on the list. Which is why I was saying in my earlier posts about once a pistol always a pistol. It was already made at the manufacture as a pistol and stripping it down doesn't make it a "frame" again. It's still a pistol w/o parts that needs to go through the Roster and CA pistol laws.


Read California law regarding the roster and definition of a handgun.

FOR THE PURPOSES OF THE ROSTER, the definition of a handgun DOES NOT include the frame or receiver of that gun. A handgun, defined by CA law, FOR THE PURPOSES OF THE ROSTER, must be capable of being fired.

Therefore an off-roster handgun receiver may be transferred. The slide and barrel are just parts so they may be delivered directly to the purchaser.

wolf13
12-05-2008, 12:38 PM
I'm very relaxed. Just curious as to what exactly this would gain.

DeeL2003
12-05-2008, 12:39 PM
That was my understanding as well and responded to the other persons comment about stripping an already pre-fitted factory gun not on the list. Which is why I was saying in my earlier posts about once a pistol always a pistol. It was already made at the manufacture as a pistol and stripping it down doesn't make it a "frame" again. It's still a pistol w/o parts that needs to go through the Roster and CA pistol laws.

People got to happy and didn't read the first thread clearly about "stripped frames". It's not the same as stripping pistols down to frames and shipping the parts directly to you and going to the FFL to register it. It would still be a pistol!

But this quote pretty much answered that question for alot of us:

* Non-Rosterable Frames: (a.k.a NRFs), stripped handgun frame which aren't
Rosterable since they're not pistols - although eligible to be built into pistols.


"NRFs" .... "Nerfs" -- I like it.

STI Frames, anyone? NRF it.
Hell, I'm getting a S&W M&P45 Compact. NRF'd

And this one:

Manufacturing is when you build or add parts to a firearm and offer it for sale or redistribution. Since the transfer is already completed there is no offering for sale or redistribution. This is an act of gunsmithing.

Parallel this once again with an AR15 lower. You get the bare lower transferred to you. You build the rifle. It is not manufacturing.

If there are parts added or assembled prior to the transfer, it's manufacturing. If it's done after the transfer, it's gunsmithing.

HK45, Ruger LCP, P250 here I come!

Now we got to convince an FFL like CDNN or Bud's to sell us a non-roster handgun and have it shipped to a middleman like Freakshow for "stripping".

chickenfried
12-05-2008, 12:40 PM
Can't wait to start mangling 1911 frames with my mad gunsmithing skills..

sorensen440
12-05-2008, 12:40 PM
Manufacturing is when you build or add parts to a firearm and offer it for sale or redistribution. Since the transfer is already completed there is no offering for sale or redistribution. This is an act of gunsmithing.

Parallel this once again with an AR15 lower. You get the bare lower transferred to you. You build the rifle. It is not manufacturing.

If there are parts added or assembled prior to the transfer, it's manufacturing. If it's done after the transfer, it's gunsmithing.

not to re-direct the thread but how would it then be manufacturing to assemble a "High Cap" magazine when all your doing is assembling??

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 12:42 PM
Call CDNN and order what you like. Tell them to ship to me. I'll handle the rest.

wolf13
12-05-2008, 12:42 PM
Thank you for the clarification.

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 12:43 PM
not to re-direct the thread but how would it then be manufacturing to assemble a "High Cap" magazine when all your doing is assembling??
Guns are different than magazines. If building after a transfer of a frame was manufacturing, then you couldn't build ARs after transferring a lower.

AK4me
12-05-2008, 12:52 PM
RUGER LCP

thanks!

Just say green light

Hells yea, thats what I want.:D

nick
12-05-2008, 1:00 PM
Sounds good to me. Anyone know of source for HK45 8in barrels?:43:

Make 'em :)

Mute
12-05-2008, 1:01 PM
Not claw; craw! ;)

Not the craw, the craw!

Matt C
12-05-2008, 1:04 PM
Manufacturing is when you build or add parts to a firearm and offer it for sale or redistribution. Since the transfer is already completed there is no offering for sale or redistribution. This is an act of gunsmithing.

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket but I completely understand the logic of why it's not manufacturing a handgun, what I'm asking for is a legal cite to back up the conclusion that you are also not manufacturing an unsafe handgun.

Parallel this once again with an AR15 lower. You get the bare lower transferred to you. You build the rifle. It is not manufacturing.

Under federal law that is correct, and since under state law there is nothing equivalent to 12125 than it's ok. But say you added a pistol grip to a detachable mag rifle, you did not manufacture a rifle but you did manufacture an assault weapon, and "It was just an act of gunsmithing" is NOT going to hold up in court. There must be some reason since it seems accepted that we can modify safe guns into unsafe guns... Maybe someone has a letter?

sierratangofoxtrotunion
12-05-2008, 1:12 PM
People got to happy and didn't read the first thread clearly about "stripped frames". It's not the same as stripping pistols down to frames and shipping the parts directly to you and going to the FFL to register it. It would still be a pistol!

So you're telling me if somebody takes a pistol AR OLL and strips it down to the receiver and sells it to me, and I build it as a rifle AR OLL with a stock and a 20" barrel, that it's still a pistol, I have special transportation requirements, have to register it, no threaded barrel or it's AW, etc etc.

I... would think not. If I do something stupid with it, I don't think the cops and the DA would call it a pistol. If they did their homework and found this previous pistol designation, they'd simply say "it used to be a pistol, now it's been built into a rifle."

joe_sun
12-05-2008, 1:20 PM
We need a Sacramento area FFL down to do this. FINALLY I'll be be able to get a Walther P5 and an HK PSP.

Matt C
12-05-2008, 1:22 PM
I... would think not. If I do something stupid with it, I don't think the cops and the DA would call it a pistol. If they did their homework and found this previous pistol designation, they'd simply say "it used to be a pistol, now it's been built into a rifle."

Probable ignorance of the DA about arcane firearms law does not make it legal. Hell you could probably just voluntarily register your OLL rifle or pistol add illegal features and the cops would think it was a registered AW, but it would still be illegal.

Anyways they would probably just charge you with having an AW anyways.

nick
12-05-2008, 1:43 PM
Not that I don't believe you, but can you spell out why that is exactly?

You do it every time you detail clean your gun.

sorensen440
12-05-2008, 1:45 PM
You do it every time you detail clean your gun.

good point

Matt C
12-05-2008, 1:48 PM
You do it every time you detail clean your gun.

It's not the same thing. If I have an old off list handgun I am not manufacturing it when I clean it. If I have an OLL with a pistol grip and I disable the price-50 before removing the "features" while cleaning it than I did manufacturing something illegal.

nick
12-05-2008, 1:51 PM
It's not the same thing. If I have an old off list handgun I am not manufacturing it when I clean it. If I have an OLL with a pistol grip and I disable the price-50 before removing the "features" while cleaning it than I did manufacturing something illegal.

But possessing (and detail cleaning) an off-roster handgun isn't illegal, unlike possessing an OLL with evil features and without a mag release block of sorts. Once you already possess it, by whatever legal means, you can disassemble and re-assemble it in any order you want (if it's physically possible, and even if it isn't :)).

Kruzr
12-05-2008, 1:53 PM
freakshow, do you know of any FFL's in Calif. willing to accept a shipment from you and submit the DROS on a 1911 frame? Caspian may see a change in their profitability just from me!

hoffmang
12-05-2008, 1:55 PM
A serialized frame of a receiver has already been legally manufactured by an 07 FFL. The parts of a large-capacity magazine are nothing and were not manufactured in a legal since until they are assembled.

-Gene

thedrickel
12-05-2008, 1:59 PM
freakshow, do you know of any FFL's in Calif. willing to accept a shipment from you and submit the DROS on a 1911 frame? Caspian may see a change in their profitability just from me!

We (PRK Arms) won't do it TODAY but hopefully we will be confident enough to do it soon. Next week, next month, not sure yet.

Matt C
12-05-2008, 2:04 PM
But possessing (and detail cleaning) an off-roster handgun isn't illegal, unlike possessing an OLL with evil features and without a mag release block of sorts. Once you already possess it, by whatever legal means, you can disassemble and re-assemble it in any order you want (if it's physically possible, and even if it isn't :)).

I'll agree if you already legally possess anything, be it an AW (registered), a high cap, or an off roster handgun, you can take it apart and put it back together all you want. But if you have something that is exempt, say an OLL, magazine parts that were never built up, or a an off roster single shot pistol or bare frame, you may have more restrictions.

I'm still (hopefully) waiting for a cite to prove otherwise for the latter.

nick
12-05-2008, 2:38 PM
I'll agree if you already legally possess anything, be it an AW (registered), a high cap, or an off roster handgun, you can take it apart and put it back together all you want. But if you have something that is exempt, say an OLL, magazine parts that were never built up, or a an off roster single shot pistol or bare frame, you may have more restrictions.

I'm still (hopefully) waiting for a cite to prove otherwise for the latter.


Hey, I appreciate you playing devil's advocate. It's probably the most needed part right now.

grammaton76
12-05-2008, 2:42 PM
So, with all this - how exactly is a pistol AR receiver different from a rifle AR receiver?

If this is the way things are, and they're only frames, then what's stopping us from building up stripped lowers we had originally intended to build rifles out of, as pistols...?

CHS
12-05-2008, 2:43 PM
So, with all this - how exactly is a pistol AR receiver different from a rifle AR receiver?

If this is the way things are, and they're only frames, then what's stopping us from building up stripped lowers we had originally intended to build rifles out of, as pistols...?

Nothing's stopping us. At least, no law we can find yet.

hoffmang
12-05-2008, 2:55 PM
Nothing's stopping us. At least, no law we can find yet.

Federal law is a different beast. A lower that stayed completely "other" from birth to you may be able to be built into a pistol. However, it is a very small amount of effort to just buy a pistol marked lower now. Then you know you're not going to get an SBR federal charge.

-Gene

383green
12-05-2008, 2:57 PM
Nothing's stopping us. At least, no law we can find yet.

I was under the impression that a "special" pistol lower was needed to legally build an AR pistol. Has this changed? Or has it always been OK to start with any virgin lower, aside from other restrictions like the roster and AW laws? :confused:

adamsreeftank
12-05-2008, 2:59 PM
I don't think building an OLL receiver into an AW is technically "Manufacturing" an AW. I think it would be "Assembling" an AW, which is still illegal, but may not cross the "Manufacturing" threshold.

One question I have is if an OLL receiver is neither a pistol or a rifle, and if a 1911 frame is the same thing, and triggers the one a month rule, does that imply you can only buy one OLL receiver a month and it also counts as your pistol for 30 days? Can you still DROS an OLL receiver as a long gun and avoid the restrictions.

bohoki
12-05-2008, 3:02 PM
cant wait to see a glock rifle built up with one of these
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e366/bohoki/image001-2.jpg

and a mech tech

http://www.mechtechsys.com/

i guess chopping a half inch off a standard mag release would make it a bullet button unless you have superman baby fingers

Matt C
12-05-2008, 3:06 PM
I don't think building an OLL receiver into an AW is technically "Manufacturing" an AW. I think it would be "Assembling" an AW, which is still illegal, but may not cross the "Manufacturing" threshold.

I's manufacturing.

12280. (a) (1) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or
causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into
the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who
gives or lends any assault weapon or any .50 BMG rifle, except as
provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction
shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for four, six,
or eight years.

Nothing in there about assembling.

tgriffin
12-05-2008, 3:06 PM
We need a Sacramento area FFL down to do this. FINALLY I'll be be able to get a Walther P5 and an HK PSP.

Agreed! I MIGHT be able to convince a very friendly kitchen table FFL of mine in the Bay Area to do this.

hoffmang
12-05-2008, 3:14 PM
I's manufacturing.

Nothing in there about assembling.

No. You get charged with 12280(b)


(b) Any person who, within this state, possesses any assault
weapon, except as provided in this chapter, shall be punished by
imprisonment in a county jail for a period not exceeding one year, or
by imprisonment in the state prison. However, a first violation of
these provisions is punishable by a fine not exceeding five hundred
dollars ($500) if the person was found in possession of no more than
two firearms in compliance with subdivision (c) of Section 12285 and
the person meets all of the following conditions:


12280(a) is to stop the commerce in AWs.

-Gene

elSquid
12-05-2008, 3:15 PM
Federal law is a different beast. A lower that stayed completely "other" from birth to you may be able to be built into a pistol. However, it is a very small amount of effort to just buy a pistol marked lower now. Then you know you're not going to get an SBR federal charge.


Hmmn, but if I understand all of this, marking it with "pistol" is not relevant from a federal legal standpoint. There is no legal protection offered by that mark.

Maybe it'll give an inspecting agent a warm fuzzy feeling, but then again, maybe not.

-- Michael

Matt C
12-05-2008, 3:24 PM
No. You get charged with 12280(b)

12280(a) is to stop the commerce in AWs.

-Gene

You are probably right about that (heh, I've been charged with both before ;)), but what about the rest? Your silence is deafening...

grammaton76
12-05-2008, 3:24 PM
Ok, so in short this is getting pretty close to the point where I observe, "Well, at least I don't have to buy any MORE AR lowers in order to have AR pistols..."

And it probably means that my NDS-6's, which were originally manufactured with intent to serve as pistol receivers (and haven't been built on) are already fully heat-treated commercial-spec AK pistols, or at least can be turned into such.

Californio
12-05-2008, 3:26 PM
Are you gents saying,

If I desire a Sringfield XD-45 Service, with thumb safety, all I have to do is order one from Freakshow, he disassembles it, ships the factory serialized frame to a Friendly CA FFL and sends the plastic box with all the other parts and goodies to my front door. I DROS the factory serialized frame and pick it up in 10 days.

I assemble it back into a XD-45 Service, with thumb safety, or have the gunsmith of my choice do so and I am good to go?

sorensen440
12-05-2008, 3:44 PM
Are you gents saying,

If I desire a Sringfield XD-45 Service, with thumb safety, all I have to do is order one from Freakshow, he disassembles it, ships the factory serialized frame to a Friendly CA FFL and sends the plastic box with all the other parts and goodies to my front door. I DROS the factory serialized frame and pick it up in 10 days.

I assemble it back into a XD-45 Service, with thumb safety, or have the gunsmith of my choice do so and I am good to go?

Yes

adamsreeftank
12-05-2008, 4:01 PM
Ok, so in short this is getting pretty close to the point where I observe, "Well, at least I don't have to buy any MORE AR lowers in order to have AR pistols..."

And it probably means that my NDS-6's, which were originally manufactured with intent to serve as pistol receivers (and haven't been built on) are already fully heat-treated commercial-spec AK pistols, or at least can be turned into such.

Were they DROSd as long guns? I think this may only apply using the new receiver designation on the paperwork.

hoffmang
12-05-2008, 4:08 PM
Your silence is deafening...

I haven't been silent. I think you've been missing what I've been saying.

Putting a detail stripped frame back together isn't manufacturing for an end user. It is a gray are for a licensee.

And there is one more little surprise floating out there that we all have to be patient on. It'll take.. wait for it...

Two weeks!

-Gene

hoffmang
12-05-2008, 4:09 PM
Are you gents saying,

If I desire a Sringfield XD-45 Service, with thumb safety, all I have to do is order one from Freakshow, he disassembles it, ships the factory serialized frame to a Friendly CA FFL and sends the plastic box with all the other parts and goodies to my front door. I DROS the factory serialized frame and pick it up in 10 days.

I assemble it back into a XD-45 Service, with thumb safety, or have the gunsmith of my choice do so and I am good to go?

The short answer is, yes.

-Gene

Californio
12-05-2008, 4:12 PM
The short answer is, yes.

-Gene

Outstanding:)

Matt C
12-05-2008, 4:16 PM
Putting a detail stripped frame back together isn't manufacturing for an end user. It is a gray are for a licensee.


I'm not missing anything, what law, opinion or case are you getting this from? If you make the gun unsafe, how are you not manufacturing an unsafe gun? Your opinion alone is just not enough.

Quite frankly you may be right, but this is like pushing everyone to rush to buy OLLs BEFORE Harrot. We should do this slowly and get a test case. I'm don't want to see this bite us in the ***, we can't afford to lose.

grammaton76
12-05-2008, 4:18 PM
Were they DROSd as long guns? I think this may only apply using the new receiver designation on the paperwork.

DROS'ed as long guns, I believe, yes. However, if I recall, "stripped receiver" was written on the 4473 in the event that makes a difference.

ke6guj
12-05-2008, 4:19 PM
Were they DROSd as long guns? I think this may only apply using the new receiver designation on the paperwork.
That may be be case, or may not. Remember, this all started with the idea that a long gun does not neccessarily mean rifle or shotgun. As freakshow mentioned, it only becomes a rifle when a shoulder stock gets attached to it. So, a long gun that is not a rifle or shotgun should be able to be built into a pistol.

There is precidence for this, a PG-only "shotgun" is not a federally defined shotgun, merely a fiream. It can be cut down into a pistol legally. Now, if it is 12ga and smoothbore, it becomes an "unconventional pistol" because of the smooth bore and is therefore an AOW. And you can't put a rifed barrel on it since tht would make it a DD. But that same process with a .410 PG-only shotugn and a rifled barrel would not be an AOW, but AFAIK, a pistol. That doesn't work in CA since it would an SBS since it can fire a shotgun shell.


Now look at it on the CA side, what section of the PC prohibits one from making a pistol out of a long gun. 12020 prohibits making an SBR out of a rifle, but those receivers are not rifles, even if they were DROSed as long guns. Once you get past that, then you can deal with the ROster.

Matt C
12-05-2008, 4:26 PM
Now look at it on the CA side, what section of the PC prohibits one from making a pistol out of a long gun. 12020 prohibits making an SBR out of a rifle, but those receivers are not rifles, even if they were DROSed as long guns. Once you get past that, then you can deal with the ROster.

As I have been saying all day, section 12125.

ProlificARProspect
12-05-2008, 4:34 PM
Thank you:)
(I've moved this from tail-end of another thread started by bdsmchs).
Thanks for tickling the bear, Christian :)


Dec. 10th will be the 3rd Anniversary of the OLL revolution, when OLL bulk sales began at the San Jose gunshow, thru the good graces of a redhead named Wes (10% Firearms) and a dude named Bill who wrote some supporting paperwork. (Much thanks to Ben Cannon and blackrazor for being the first intentional OLLs in California.]

For some time, we've known that the DOJ stance that a 'frame = handgun' cannot stand. It's time to kill the beast now.

This is more than a wild hair up our arses, we've accumulated paperwork supporting the legal correctness of our stance.

I myself have shied away from pushing against this in the past because it wasn't worth the drama at that time, a few OLL dramas had still occurred, and we could use the single-shot exemption in 12133PC - and thus the flow of AR pistols began. Plus we are now in a position where we can be more aggressive: some additional favorable OLL paperwork should soon be in the offing.

As of now:
- We've just killed the Roster.
- We've just killed mag disconnects.
- We've just killed LCIs.
- We've just killed microstamping (again).

If we attack en masse, nobody will have problems.

If DOJ continues to assert 'frame = handgun', we have an underground regulation readily and RAPIDLY challengeable outside the DOJ at OAL.

For clarity, let's get our terms straight and use them consistenly: I'd like to not mix up AW terminology and handgun Roster terminology. Let's keep "Off List" terminology restricted just for items not listed on, but perhaps similar to, items listed on Roberti-Roos or Kasler AW lists.

New terms we will use:

Off-Roster Handguns: handguns not on Roster nor exempt from it;



Roster-Exempt Handguns: per 12133PC: dimensionally-compliant single-action
revolvers, dimensionally-compliant single-shot pistols, C&R handguns.



Non-Rosterable Frames: (a.k.a NRFs), stripped handgun frame which aren't
Rosterable since they're not pistols - although eligible to be built into pistols.


"NRFs" .... "Nerfs" -- I like it.

And in the very near future we will not have to do single-shot treatment for AR pistols. They'll be NRF'd. (For now, continue on.)

STI Frames, anyone? NRF it.
Hell, I'm getting a S&W M&P45 Compact. NRF'd
I think Hoffman wants that KelTec 223 pistol (gawd knows why, I thought he had better taste). NRFd, of course.

I'm gonna ask that folks hold off for a very short time, including extensive discussion, til we drop in the support into place - but transfers should begin fairly shortly by one or more "Leadership FFLs" in California.

[I'd suggest just to be clean that NRF frames get DROSed fairly stripped down and that you've already acquired the upper/bbl assy separately. Handing the bag of parts along with the frame at DROS time is just a bit close for comfort at least for me.]

ke6guj
12-05-2008, 4:36 PM
As I have been saying all day, section 12125.
Matt, I'm not arguing with you on 12125. I'm not sure how we got past just getting in bare pistol frames that we would build up as single-shot roster-exempt handguns to be later modified into full semi-autos, to full-blown immediately build up in any configuration. I think that Gene and Bill may have something up their sleeve that will show the legality of it, but as of right now, its got people flying off in all different directions, even though Bill said not to in the OP.

My post was directed to Sean, that it looks like he should be able to build those virgin receivers as handguns even though they were "long gun" DROSed. I'd first build them as single-shot non-AWs, since we know the legality of that, then later modify to semi-auto

hoffmang
12-05-2008, 4:42 PM
I'm not missing anything, what law, opinion or case are you getting this from? If you make the gun unsafe, how are you not manufacturing an unsafe gun? Your opinion alone is just not enough.

How do you manufacture a firearm when it has already been manufactured by an 07 FFL when he put it into his bound book and stamped it with a serial number?

-Gene

Matt C
12-05-2008, 4:44 PM
How do you manufacture a firearm when it has already been manufactured by an 07 FFL when he put it into his bound book and stamped it with a serial number?

-Gene

You are not manufacturing a firearm, you are manufacturing a unsafe handgun, from a firearm.

Librarian
12-05-2008, 4:45 PM
I think the question turns on the definition of 'manufacturer'.

PC is pretty consistent in its usages, for examples 12001 (h) As used in this title, "wholesaler" means any person who is
licensed as a dealer pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section
921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued
pursuant thereto who sells, transfers, or assigns firearms, or parts
of firearms, to persons who are licensed as manufacturers,
importers, or gunsmiths pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with
Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code, or persons
licensed pursuant to Section 12071, and
[[ since I think this is still on the same subject, I think this is '"Wholesalers" includes persons' ]] includes persons who receive
finished parts of firearms and assemble them into completed or
partially completed firearms in furtherance of that purpose.
"Wholesaler" shall not include a manufacturer, importer, or
gunsmith who is licensed to engage in those activities pursuant to
Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United
States Code or a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 and the
regulations issued pursuant thereto.


12020 (10) As used in this section, a "zip gun" means any weapon or
device which meets all of the following criteria:
(A) It was not imported as a firearm by an importer licensed
pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of
the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(B) It was not originally designed to be a firearm by a
manufacturer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section
921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations
issued pursuant thereto.

And the relevant US Code referenced is 18 USC 921 (a)
(10) The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;

I think this suggests that regulated manufacturing is 'manufacturing for sale'. (I think that applies to large-capacity magazines, too).

grammaton76
12-05-2008, 4:46 PM
And the relevant US Code referenced is I think this suggests that regulated manufacturing is 'manufacturing for sale'. (I think that applies to large-capacity magazines, too).

Wouldn't it be awesome if "manufacture" were to be interpreted consistently this way, so that we could put together any large cap mag we wanted as long as we never offered it for sale?

hoffmang
12-05-2008, 4:51 PM
You are not manufacturing a firearm, you are manufacturing a unsafe handgun, from a firearm.

Then you can't reconfigure a once rostered firearm into a form that makes it not on the roster. That too would be manufacturing under the definition your propose.

Add a .22 upper to a Sig 226 and manufacture an unsafe handgun? I'm quite sure that's not a proper definition. We do have it in letters that changing the configuration of a handgun that was on the roster to a configuration that is not currently on the roster is legal. It may be stated in the rulemaking to implement the roster, but I don't have time at this sec to look it up.

-Gene

hoffmang
12-05-2008, 4:51 PM
You are not manufacturing a firearm, you are manufacturing a unsafe handgun, from a firearm.

You'd also be engaged in the business without a license under 12070 et seq.

-Gene

Matt C
12-05-2008, 4:54 PM
Matt, I'm not arguing with you on 12125. I'm not sure how we got past just getting in bare pistol frames that we would build up as single-shot roster-exempt handguns to be later modified into full semi-autos, to full-blown immediately build up in any configuration.


I'm not even sure how we got to modifying off roster single shots into full semi-autos, unless we are relying on some non-opinion opinion issued by A.M that is not worth the paper it's written on to anyone with any sense, unless you are trying to make case law that does not currently exist and can afford to do so. When you are sitting in jail for something a tenuous legal thoery is not going to comfort you. I had SOLID case law on my side and I was nervous as hell.

I think we are being pretty reckless and irresponsible by informing the whole internet that "The Roster has been nullified" since a lot of people are going to run off and do stuff thinking it's totally legal (and a lot of people will take what is written here for granted and do just that) when in fact it seems like a dark gray area, at best, to me.

timmyb21
12-05-2008, 4:55 PM
:jump::patriot:
:punk::cheers2:
:King:
:rockon:

I so happy...

Matt C
12-05-2008, 4:58 PM
Then you can't reconfigure a once rostered firearm into a form that makes it not on the roster. That too would be manufacturing under the definition your propose.


If I was a lawyer giving someone legal advice that would certainly be my (safe) interpretation. It may be the DA's as well, and then what will you (and not actually you, you have the $ to take it to SCOTUS if needed, most of us don't) do, in an urban CA courtroom?

Matt C
12-05-2008, 5:00 PM
Wouldn't it be awesome if "manufacture" were to be interpreted consistently this way, so that we could put together any large cap mag we wanted as long as we never offered it for sale?

It would be awesome, but I don't have any reason at this moment to assume it would be consistently interpreted, and so the same danger you would have in say, modifying a CA legal (10 round) magazine into a large-cap, is the same danger you have in modifying a CA legal handgun into a non-rostered one. After all, you are not manufacturing the magazine (maybe it even has a SN already!) you are just "magazine smithing". :rolleyes: Yeah try that one in an LA or SF court and write me from prison about how unfair it all is.

DRM6000
12-05-2008, 5:10 PM
you guys here at calguns are the best!

*wipes away tears of joy*

artherd
12-05-2008, 5:19 PM
If I was a lawyer giving someone legal advice that would certainly be my (safe) interpretation. It may be the DA's as well, and then what will you (and not actually you, you have the $ to take it to SCOTUS if needed, most of us don't) do, in an urban CA courtroom?

Wait a second - I can't re-barrel my glock now? I think not...

(yes, different barrels constitute different 'rostered firearms' per DOJ & codified law.)


EDIT to correct a brain fart. I was thinking of re-barreling, not refinishing. I goofed and transposed the two mentally.

Matt C
12-05-2008, 5:24 PM
Wait a second - I can't refinish my glock now? I think not...

(yes, different finishes constitute different 'rostered firearms' per DOJ)

The DOJ is full of brainless retards, I don't rely on them for my legal advice, period.

I would follow these guidelines which lay out LEGISLATIVE INTENT pretty clearly:

12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements
of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the
same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs
from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following
features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating,
oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference
in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions,
material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel,
the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the
firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way
alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the
magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of
the firing mechanism of the firearm.

Bad Voodoo
12-05-2008, 5:26 PM
(yes, different finishes constitute different 'rostered firearms' per DOJ)

:banghead:

artherd
12-05-2008, 5:46 PM
Also, does removing a magazine disconnect constitute manufacturing an unsafe handgun?

Matt C
12-05-2008, 6:09 PM
Also, does removing a magazine disconnect constitute manufacturing an unsafe handgun?

Hey I'm not the authority on this by any means, but altering "functioning of the
magazine well" would seem to cover this, so it would appear so. Again, it may be a risk worth taking for some but advocating it on a large scale as perfectly legal seems like a bad move without further info.

If there really is "accumulated paperwork supporting the legal correctness of our stance" then for heavens sake someone email it to me so I can STFU.

Theseus
12-05-2008, 7:19 PM
Hey I'm not the authority on this by any means, but altering "functioning of the
magazine well" would seem to cover this, so it would appear so. Again, it may be a risk worth taking for some but advocating it on a large scale as perfectly legal seems like a bad move without further info.

If there really is "accumulated paperwork supporting the legal correctness of our stance" then for heavens sake someone email it to me so I can STFU.

The will....in TWO WEEKS!!!;)

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 7:25 PM
If there really is "accumulated paperwork supporting the legal correctness of our stance" then for heavens sake someone email it to me so I can STFU.
That's the issue. This is uncharted territory we're heading into. There is no case law, we are going strictly by statutes (penal code). That's why we have lawyers looking into this. ;)

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 7:31 PM
Im having trouble grasping that I could re-manufacture a handgun after I have lawfully transferred the frame through an ffl or that it would matter.

It's not remanufacturing a handgun. You are assembling the parts on a transferred frame similar to building a AR15 rifle out of a bare lower. Neither of which is manufacturing.

trashman
12-05-2008, 7:38 PM
I'm gonna ask that folks hold off for a very short time, including extensive discussion, til we drop in the support into place - but transfers should begin fairly shortly by one or more "Leadership FFLs" in California.

Sheesh - I don't check Calguns for 36 hours and look what happens while I'm away working....

Seriously though, this is exciting news, Bill -- looking forward to the CGF's approach on this.

--Neill

jamesob
12-05-2008, 7:53 PM
so what we are saying is that a buddy of mine who is a ffl can legally sell his non rostered handguns , if he strips them down? he has about 40 in his inventory that were pawned and could not sell them because of the roster.

nobody_special
12-05-2008, 8:04 PM
I'm afraid to say that I think BWO has made some excellent points here. Without case law or some sort of determination by the AG, I wouldn't risk this approach.

dwtt
12-05-2008, 8:25 PM
Call CDNN and order what you like. Tell them to ship to me. I'll handle the rest.

I have a feeling you will be making a lot of money in 2009, prepare to hire some employees to handle all the orders. I also have a feeling Alison or one of her minions will call you and mention something about 58 DA's.
I'll keep your name and address handy, just in case.

freakshow10mm
12-05-2008, 8:50 PM
I can send a non-roster handgun to an FFL in California. There is no law preventing me from doing so. That is where my job ends. It's up to the California FFL to transfer the firearm in a lawful manner. So how would I have to worry about a California DA? From my time in cop school, California does not have jurisdiction in Michigan and cannot enforce laws that do not apply to me in Michigan nor in interstate commerce.

hawk1
12-05-2008, 9:30 PM
I can send a non-roster handgun to an FFL in California. There is no law preventing me from doing so. That is where my job ends. It's up to the California FFL to transfer the firearm in a lawful manner. So how would I have to worry about a California DA? From my time in cop school, California does not have jurisdiction in Michigan and cannot enforce laws that do not apply to me in Michigan nor in interstate commerce.

And that's why we love you...:D

1859sharps
12-05-2008, 9:53 PM
2 thoughts....

1. Fat lady ain't singing yet. lets not break out the champagne until the leg work is finished and Gene and Bill deliver their full plan.

2. Even if this does not work out, I think things like this answers the question about whether or not Cal Rifle and Pistol is still a relevant organization.

bwiese
12-05-2008, 10:07 PM
Seriously though, this is exciting news, Bill -- looking forward to the CGF's approach on this.

I and Gene and Oaklander are posting here relevant to these matters as gunnies, not as CGF board members (note disclaimer at footer of my posts, for example). Speaking as a CGF board member for this sentence: CGF activity would likely only occur if bogus charges were made relating to this matter, or DOJ were to assert underground regulatory authority.

Again, we don't want people to go off "half cocked" on this.

Certain Resident Aresholes here ;) will be the first to do such transactions shortly, and publicize them here.

Given the radioactivity level of these individuals, if something were to happen it'd happen to them.

I want an S&W M&P Compact ;) I will have one :)

A formal step-by-step methodology backed by some paperwork will appear here in reasonable time. Most all of the pieces are here already.

Just remember: for matters of Rostering, a frame is NOT a handgun. And Rostering only applies to handguns. ;)
It is not our fault if different sets of laws that were passed at different times are inconsistent or refer to different items in different sections of the Penal Code. Legislative intent is generally what is expressed in codified language (unless there's mass confusion or weird unaddressed areas). The legislature had the opportunity to address this at or after SB15's passage and could have created more inclusive language; they could've fixed the language for inclusiveness when SB489 mag disco/LCI provisions were added, or when AB1471 provisions were addded to. Instead they continued to 'glom on' to the existing language and just add new requirements to the same concept.

Were DOJ to insist on 'frame = handgun' in relation to Rostering, we can go straight to OAL, who will listen to us.

BTW#1, you might recall we already have DOJ opinion letter from Alison stating it's OK to build a 1911 in spite of Rostering laws :) We also have the legislative analysis of AB2728 (plus from other friendlier parties) stating that receivers/frames aren't rifles (conceptually readily extendable to pistols).


BTW#2, the risk threshold is lower than OLL stuff: 12125 crap is a misdemeanor, not that we're at all worried.

Meplat
12-05-2008, 10:12 PM
You are soooooo right. These people deserve our respect and gratitude just like those in the uniformed services. They too are risking all for freedom!:patriot:



Yes, I just wanted to take this moment to thank our leadership FFLs. You know who you are.

Yesterday I had the pleasure of visiting one of them to help them with a legal matter. I have to say that it's our FFLs who are on the front lines, and risking their livelihood and more. Without these forward-thinking FFLs, we would not have any of the goodies that we now have.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but it's really the FFLs who are the "tip of the spear" with respect to OLLs/NRFs, etc..

Douglas711
12-05-2008, 10:18 PM
This gives us all a little more hope

djslik
12-05-2008, 10:21 PM
Maybe that colt gold cup might be mine after all. It's nice to hear we have some hope against our ridiculous handgun laws.

truthseeker
12-05-2008, 10:28 PM
If I am doing a PPT, how would I transfer a "off roster" colt 45 from LA to Sacramento?

What paperwork does the seller and buyer have to fill out?

bwiese
12-05-2008, 10:32 PM
If I am doing a PPT, how would I transfer a "off roster" colt 45 from LA to Sacramento?

What paperwork does the seller and buyer have to fill out?

Hold off. You will not need to do a PPT.

(Very few CA FFL dealers will do a "split PPT").

It will be a normal FFL transfer (though this means FFLs will make more money, since only PPTs have price caps) of a frame that is not a handgun
(but which is eligible to be a handgun).

You'd mail the slide/upper to your buyer, and the frame to the buyer's FFL.
Buyer would transfer a "NRF" from the FFL.

truthseeker
12-05-2008, 10:34 PM
Hold off. You will not need to do a PPT.

(Very few CA FFL dealers will do a "split PPT").

It will be a normal FFL transfer (though this means FFLs will make more money, since only PPTs have price caps) of a frame that is not a handgun
(but which is eligible to be a handgun).

You'd mail the slide/upper to your buyer, and the frame to the buyer's FFL.
Buyer would transfer a "NRF" from the FFL.

So how long should I wait?

bwiese
12-05-2008, 10:36 PM
So how long should I wait?

Shouldn't be more than 2 weeks. (No joke this time.)

Matt C
12-05-2008, 10:37 PM
I and Gene and Oaklander are posting here relevant to these matters as gunnies, not as CGF board members (note disclaimer at footer of my posts, for example). Speaking as a CGF board member for this sentence: CGF activity would likely only occur if bogus charges were made relating to this matter, or DOJ were to assert underground regulatory authority.

Again, we don't want people to go off "half cocked" on this.

Certain Resident Aresholes here ;) will be the first to do such transactions shortly, and publicize them here.

Given the radioactivity level of these individuals, if something were to happen it'd happen to them.

I want an S&W M&P Compact ;) I will have one :)

A formal step-by-step methodology backed by some paperwork will appear here in reasonable time. Most all of the pieces are here already.

Just remember: for matters of Rostering, a frame is NOT a handgun. And Rostering only applies to handguns. ;)
It is not our fault if different sets of laws that were passed at different times are inconsistent or refer to different items in different sections of the Penal Code. Legislative intent is generally what is expressed in codified language (unless there's mass confusion or weird unaddressed areas). The legislature had the opportunity to address this at or after SB15's passage and could have created more inclusive language; they could've fixed the language for inclusiveness when SB489 mag disco/LCI provisions were added, or when AB1471 provisions were addded to. Instead they continued to 'glom on' to the existing language and just add new requirements to the same concept.

Were DOJ to insist on 'frame = handgun' in relation to Rostering, we can go straight to OAL, who will listen to us.

BTW#1, you might recall we already have DOJ opinion letter from Alison stating it's OK to build a 1911 in spite of Rostering laws :) We also have the legislative analysis of AB2728 (plus from other friendlier parties) stating that receivers/frames aren't rifles (conceptually readily extendable to pistols).


BTW#2, the risk threshold is lower than OLL stuff: 12125 crap is a misdemeanor, not that we're at all worried.

I'm not sure why you would not be worried, the law is subject to interpretation, and we are dealing with firearms law in the state of California.

Well anyways, thanks to you guys for volunteering to be guinea pigs, if you guys can do this publicly and avoid prosecution, than I guess it's ok, and it is only a misdemeanor (unless you get hit with conspiracy...). I'd love to see the methodology as well, with supporting documents, not sure why it would be such a big secret.

In the mean time I would advise everybody else to hold off on this, it is a high risk activity at the moment. IMO it's going to take a lot longer than two weeks to establish this as kosher. Let's not get too excited yet, after all this is not a new idea by any means (in fact it pre-dates OLLs), and so far any new documentation to support the radical change in perceived legality is vaporware.

truthseeker
12-05-2008, 10:39 PM
Shouldn't be more than 2 weeks. (No joke this time.)

Thanks, I will wait!

SanSacto
12-05-2008, 10:51 PM
I want a 1911 frame, I am deep into researching how to build one! So many questions.....

psssniper
12-05-2008, 11:06 PM
So we're all excited over this latest development and everyone is posting their "dream" gun and that's cool. :) I'm willing to bet that most of you won't hesitate to drop some cash, most likely serious cash, asap when this greenlights. Please do yourself and all of us CalGunners a favor and take a minute to drop some cash at CGF (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=108030) I imagine that all this research and lawyer time doesn't come cheap. So don't be a freeloader, do your part. Kick in some $$ to CGF (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=108030) and lets help keep fighting the fight.

adamsreeftank
12-05-2008, 11:58 PM
... Let's not get too excited yet, after all this is not a new idea by any means (in fact it pre-dates OLLs), and so far any new documentation to support the radical change in perceived legality is vaporware.

Matt, I respect your conservative approach, especially considering what you went through.

One thing I can think of that has recently changed is the option to DROS a receiver not as a pistol or long-gun.