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turinreza
12-22-2014, 2:19 PM
what would you use: a reflex sight vs a scope for 50 to 200 yrds
In the movie Lone Survivor they used both. Seemed like the scoped
guys used less ammo. Matter of preference? At 200 yds + a scope
can identify and get more accurate shots off faster.

7YmIioKk9_E

PSLguy
12-22-2014, 2:22 PM
Depends on what the goal is. If it's rapid hits on a man sized target, then for me, a red dot would be faster.

If the goal is putting rounds in as small an area as possible, then these old eyes will need a scope. Something like a 1-4X comes to mind.

I've seen guys made solid hits out to 400+ yards with a red dot, but their eyes where 20 years younger than mine. :)

tacticalcity
12-22-2014, 2:43 PM
Well, bear in mind that was a movie not real life. So their battle effectiveness shown on screen is not an indicator of anything other than what a director and editor thought looked cool on screen.

You get speed with a red dot. Speed that is critical close in.

It is very easy to get lost in the magnification with a scope. Even if the scope is variable and be dialed back to only 1 magnification it is easy to get lost in the scope shadow.

If the gun is going to be used for self defense, go with a red dot. This is not even debatable. The downsides to a scope will get you killed at any distance considered self defense. The distances at which a scope starts to become preferable are not gonna fall into anybody's definition of self defense.

If the gun is going to be use for hunting, it will depend on the distances involved as well as whether or not you will be able to setup in advanced or will be on the move. Scope if you can setup, red dot if you are on the move a lot. I'm not a hunter, so I am getting that based on what I have seen others do.

If the gun is going to be used for precision or target shooting (such as on a flat range) then going with a scope is fine...and might even be more fun.

If you plan on taking some CQB run and gun courses with your AR (see the Competition & Training section here on Calguns for a school in your neck of the woods) then go with a Red Dot...because you'll be learning self defense style shooting.

If you plan on using it in precision rifle course (again they are listed in the training section) then a scope will be better. But those are usually long range courses in which you would want a .308 or 7mm. Though I have seen a few people doing well with an SPR type AR.

Just my $0.02.

CK_32
12-22-2014, 2:48 PM
Your really going to rely on a exaggerated Hollywood film or mach scenario to base your optic choices?


And none of us can tell you. You should be able to ask your self and figure out what's best for your intended use.


You could be shooting at a dime at 50 yards, in that case a scope. A large target at 100, in that case a red dot. There is too many factors to guess what and how you will be shooting it.

You ask your self, think of what your shooting and ask your self what will you need. Cause I'm almost sure you won't be shooting any bad guys so basing it to kill someone isn't a good place to start. Especially off a movie that's about 4 seals falling down a mountain side and getting shot 100 times for 2 hours.

bsumoba
12-22-2014, 2:57 PM
Just run a 1-4x/6x/8x and be done with it. You have the best of both worlds for a little bit of weight that...let's be honest, you will not care about because we're going to be taking it to and from the range in a nicely padded case and many of us dont go humping the rifle out in a zombie or red dawn like scenario ;)

If you are doing tactical stuff like CQB, room clearing or shooting inside 200 yards, but are only expecting MOM (minute of man), then I see a red dot as the go to optic.

Spaceghost
12-22-2014, 3:06 PM
Get both and see what you like best. Sell one or just build a second rifle.

3lixer
12-22-2014, 3:48 PM
I can consistently hit torso sized steel out over 400 yards no problem with my Aimpoint pro so I vote RDS. Even at around 650 yards I'm on steel about 2 out of 3 shots.

Scope will be more accurate but longer time for target acquisition in my opinion.

nate76239
12-22-2014, 3:49 PM
The guys on the movie with shorter rifles the M4 were using an Acog 4x scope with a reflex sight mounted on top. Don't base the decision on a movie but intended use a red dot sounds like a winner for defensive use as already mentioned.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Lone_Survivor#M4A1_Carbine

turinreza
12-22-2014, 4:24 PM
I can consistently hit torso sized steel out over 400 yards no problem with my Aimpoint pro so I vote RDS. Even at around 650 yards I'm on steel about 2 out of 3 shots.

Scope will be more accurate but longer time for target acquisition in my opinion.

did you see the nutnfancy video?
he did pretty much the same as the red dot but do you consider his
points?
1) target identity with red dot is bad over 200 yards. you can hit
a man size plate at 600 but who is the man, a friend or foe?
2) what happens when target lays down so no more MOM (man size).
a scope can get on target faster in that case and less misses.

i am just thinking if one can get away with a scope for 200 to 600 yards
and be very good at it with 50 to 200 yards with skills that make one
do as well as with a reflex why not just go scope all the time?

of course cqb and under 50 yards hard to beat

tacticalcity
12-22-2014, 5:29 PM
I agree with everything you just said. However....

Unless we are talking WWIII then taking at shot at a real person at 200 yards is a one way ticket to sharing a cell with Bubba. At 200 yards you took the time to setup on somebody and lay in wait. Nobody is gonna buy that was "self defense". It is a good skill to have, and in today's world would that skill set would probably be more applicable to hunting - and I am pretty sure no coyote counts as a friendly. For actual self defense usage in today's non-apocalyptic world, you're never gonna need to shoot a human beyond 50 yards unless you're serving in the military. Not if you plan on staying out of prison. But a home intruder actually falls with the realm of possibility (heaven forbid).

Just sayin'!

Now, for collection purposes and learning new shooting skill sets...nothing wrong with putting a scope on an AR - even if it is just because you feel like it. Just bear in mind there is no such thing as an end all be all do all rifle. That's why they make safes that hold more than one. ;)

MrPlink
12-22-2014, 5:50 PM
did you see the nutnfancy video?
he did pretty much the same as the red dot but do you consider his
points?
1) target identity with red dot is bad over 200 yards. you can hit
a man size plate at 600 but who is the man, a friend or foe?
2) what happens when target lays down so no more MOM (man size).
a scope can get on target faster in that case and less misses.

i am just thinking if one can get away with a scope for 200 to 600 yards
and be very good at it with 50 to 200 yards with skills that make one
do as well as with a reflex why not just go scope all the time?

of course cqb and under 50 yards hard to beat

Very realistic concerns considering the size of malls in the United States these days. With the ATT kiosk on one end of the mall and the orange Julius on the other you really can't predict your engagement range so easily.
Plus with the guy in the middle of the mall selling those remote control helicopters the odds of collateral damage without adequate magnification is quite high.

MXRider
12-22-2014, 6:03 PM
Just because the average contact distance is 7 yards doesn't mean they all are that short. Just saying.

sdnative13
12-22-2014, 6:06 PM
What would a tricon scope be considered?

tacticalcity
12-22-2014, 6:10 PM
Just because the average contact distance is 7 yards doesn't mean they all are that short. Just saying.

You don't set your rifle setup to be ideal for 1-5% of shots you take. Not when doing so makes it considerably more difficult for the 95-99% of the shots you take. Make your decisions on the bulk of what you actually use it for.

Scopes come with a laundry list of downsides that slow you down considerably close in, and that can and will get you killed in a typical CQB situation.

In today's civilian world, a red dot is ideal for a defensive rifle. Even plain irons are preferred over a magnified scope. In fact, if you plan to cheap out on how much you spend on your red dot then irons are much preferred. You are gonna need to master your irons regardless.

Now for a scout or hunting rifle, that's a little different. A scope might work best for what you are doing. For a target or precision rifle is COMPLETELY different. A scope is ideal. It all comes down to what you are really going to be using the rifle for.

Once you know that, the smart move is to set it up to be ideal for 90+% of the shots you are actually gonna take with it.

For a lot of us, a scope works best. Because all we really do is punch pretty holes in paper at the local shooting range. But don't put that same rifle under your bed and expect it to be ideal for home defense. It won't be, and not just because of the bullet button. It's got the wrong optics.

All I am saying here, is be realistic about what works best for what and what you really need. Like I said above, there is no such things as one rifle setup that is ideal for every single type of shooting. That's why gun safes hold more than one.

MXRider
12-22-2014, 6:11 PM
That's why variables have gotten so popular. 1x-4x 1.5x-6x etc. They don't compromise much at close distances and they give you a lot of flexibility. The downside is good ones aren't cheap.

nate76239
12-22-2014, 6:20 PM
What about something like this that has both, if the scope cranked down to 1x isn't enough there's a red dot on top of it.
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/2200x1650/Primary/547/547415.jpg
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/547415/burris-mtac-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-1-4x-24mm-illuminated-ballistic-cq-reticle-with-fastfire-iii-red-dot-and-pepr-mount-matte?cm_vc=subv547415

tacticalcity
12-22-2014, 6:27 PM
Uh, no...not at all! Not if the primary objective is home defense/self-defense/CQB style shooting. But there are styles of shooting where it is the ideal choice.

Again, terrible idea in real life for CQB. They look great on paper, and are something people who want to create an all purpose rifle would want to consider. But in real life these are best used on an SPR or Recce type build where most your shots are medium range. If most of your shots are 100-300 yards, but you occasionally need to shoot closer-up then this is a good setup. But in CQB, 90%+ of your shots are very close up. A 50 yard shot would be rare. A 100 yard shot would be extremely rare. And a 300 yard shot would be a three eyed unicorn.

Take a CQB class with one and you will quickly realize why. Your speed and effectiveness gets cut almost in half. Not kidding. It is really that noticeable of a difference between one of these and a red dot.

There about 1000+ threads and articles going into full detail as to why this is.

But I will sum it up.

This is still a setup that is comprising too much at self defense distances to gain rewards for shots taken further out to be useful for CQB.

However, it is ideal for a scout rifle or over-watch type precision rifle where you can pick and chose your shots and are not having to acquire and fire in fraction of a second or die. Yes, there is a red dot backup sight. Keyword being "backup". It is there in case somebody sneaks up on you while you were concentrating and picking off their buddies from your perch or hide. It is not setup in a way where it is the sight you want to be using for 90% of your shots. Likewise, the scope it self even at 1x is much slower than a red dot because of the tube shadow. Plus you would always have to have it at 1X, and would only be able to take advantage of the magnification on those extremely rare times when you are surprising the opposition. Not something we get to do in civilian life without going to prison. When you've only got a fraction of a second to get a decent sight picture and fire, a red dot is VASTLY superior to this setup.

Put even more simply:

The guys knocking down the doors and clearing the building would be better served with a standard red dot. The guy keeping over-watch on the roof top across the street should be using one these 1-4 variable scopes with a red-dot backup. A little "Hollywood" but that is the best way I can think of to describe where each sight finds its ideal role in a non-hunting environment. Now for hunting, there are lots of situations where this type optic would be ideal. The main differences being the wild life is not shooting back and you can engage animals at greater distances and still be within the legal frame work of our society.

If you doubt me, take a CQB course and run the red dot one day and this setup the next. I promise that you'll be convinced. You will notice a huge difference in easy of use and your speed and performance.

turinreza
12-22-2014, 6:36 PM
I agree with everything you just said. However....

Unless we are talking WWIII then taking at shot at a real person at 200 yards is a one way ticket to sharing a cell with Bubba. At 200 yards you took the time to setup on somebody and lay in wait. Nobody is gonna buy that was "self defense". It is a good skill to have, and in today's world would that skill set would probably be more applicable to hunting - and I am pretty sure no coyote counts as a friendly. For actual self defense usage in today's non-apocalyptic world, you're never gonna need to shoot a human beyond 50 yards unless you're serving in the military. Not if you plan on staying out of prison. But a home intruder actually falls with the realm of possibility (heaven forbid).

Just sayin'!

Now, for collection purposes and learning new shooting skill sets...nothing wrong with putting a scope on an AR - even if it is just because you feel like it. Just bear in mind there is no such thing as an end all be all do all rifle. That's why they make safes that hold more than one. ;)

i agree with cqb but i guess for self defense there are two other points:
1) with a scope you can practice better shot placement than with a red dot
because the dot is so big at 100 yards, better shot placement means less rounds spent to be effective.
2) if there are hostage concerns or friendlies mixed in i would be more inclined to be as accurate as possible even at 50 yards. Would you take out a hostage take holding a hostage with a red dot ever or with a scope ever?

Str8Shoot3r
12-22-2014, 6:58 PM
Most guys will do great with a small aimpoint...especially for home defense or close range CQB out to 200m.

Personally, I've memorized the holdovers for my ACOG and have sent enough lead downrange in practice to be effective with my ACOG 50-300m. I don't foresee shooting beyond that unless competing or war breaks out at home.

Have a reality check and don't lie to yourself. The worst that's gonna happen to most is going to be at the supermarket where a guy bumps his shopping cart into yours and you lock eyes for a tense couple of seconds. :D

bsumoba
12-22-2014, 7:01 PM
i agree with cqb but i guess for self defense there are two other points:
1) with a scope you can practice better shot placement than with a red dot
because the dot is so big at 100 yards, better shot placement means less rounds spent to be effective.
2) if there are hostage concerns or friendlies mixed in i would be more inclined to be as accurate as possible even at 50 yards. Would you take out a hostage take holding a hostage with a red dot ever or with a scope ever?

red dots have their place...precision is not really one of them. Look at the 3-gun guys. Most are running variable optics in the 1-4x to 1-8x class. They can spin to 1x power and run it like a red dot, then spin over to 8x and shoot for more precision.

A red dot is about 2MOA, maybe 1.75 MOA max and its even bigger in certain light conditions or how your eye perceives the dot, so anything past 50 yards IMO, is not going to good for accuracy, and when I mean accuracy, I mean consistent 1-2MOA shot strings. That is asking a lot of that system. Couple this with factory ammo and getting a shot string under 2 MOA at 100 yards or more is going to be tough.

A variable optic, although heavier, is still the better all around optic. Plus, the illuminated variable scopes in the 1-4x to 1-8x power range will typically have TRUE 1 MOA dots.

Let's be honest with ourselves...like I said, most of us will run a tactical carbine class or go to the range to hit paper or maybe steel. The weight is typically a non-issue. A red dot is faster only from the standpoint that the overall weight of the rifle is lighter. I can run my Vortex PST at 1x power and be just as fast as when I used to have an Aimpoint H1, but I have the ability to spin it to 4x power and get very consistent shot groups at 100 or more.

if we have to worry about a zombie apocalypse or red dawn or walking dead or WWIII, then we have MUCH bigger things to worry about at that point.

tacticalcity
12-22-2014, 7:05 PM
i agree with cqb but i guess for self defense there are two other points:
1) with a scope you can practice better shot placement than with a red dot
because the dot is so big at 100 yards, better shot placement means less rounds spent to be effective.
2) if there are hostage concerns or friendlies mixed in i would be more inclined to be as accurate as possible even at 50 yards. Would you take out a hostage take holding a hostage with a red dot ever or with a scope ever?

Gotta find you a local CQB course so you can see first hand what I mean.

1. HOSTAGE/HEAD SHOTS: Unless you are across the street looking through the window at your friends house where he is being held hostage, argument one falls apart. If you are in the same room, the loss of 99.999999% of your peripheral vision makes a scope a bad idea. Plus the second you raise your rifle and cheek it, the race is on to see who pulls the trigger first. So speed is just as vital as accuracy. I would not take such a shot, unless I had zero choice. But even so, I do practice it with a red dot and am very good at it at the distances you will find in a house or office building.

2. Even at 50 yards, I would trust myself more with a red dot in that scenario for much the same reasons. The loss of both speed and peripheral vision. The race is one once you raise up, and there might be more bad guys to engage.

Mostly though, if there are hostages I would rather try and talk than shoot. Taking a shot, no matter how ideal the scenario, is gonna be a tough call to live with. Even with a SWAT trained sniper, lying in wait...the percentages are just not good.

Truth be told, taking the hostage scenario out of the equation, I would much rather flee than fight given the choice. It's not cowardice. My stuff just isn't worth dying for or even killing for. You pull a trigger and even if you are 100% right the dead guys family now owns all your stuff. Check that, the lawyers you hire to defend you in both the criminal and civil trials now own all your stuff. Just look at the news, if he's some black guy and you're not...you're effed! The media and celebrities will be calling for head. Doesn't matter how much you donated to the United Negro College Fund, they will make it sound like you are a founding member of the KKK. So if I can flee...I will...but I am bringing my guns with me while I do...just in case.

Back on topic...

In my humble opinion, you're letting the 1% (or less) dictate your decision and sacrificing too much that would aid in the 99%.

Unless of course, the main purpose for the rifle is target shooting, hunting, or something other than self defense. There is nothing wrong with that. I have those rifles as well.

At the end of the day, it is your money and your rifle. God willing this is all just for kicks and you will never need to use it for anything other than recreation.

The War Wagon
12-22-2014, 7:13 PM
Of THOSE two?

Reflex.


Of ANY choice?


Aimpoint.



/thread.

turinreza
12-22-2014, 7:18 PM
again. i agree with cqb reflex is better under 50 yards. but we are talking 50 to 200 yards. I would use shot gun for home defense or pistol.

Just saying if there was ever a situation where I had only one gun say being attacked by roving mob in TEOTWAWKI and being rushed in at 300 to 50 yards
I don't want to carry two rifles on me. one for long range 300 to 200 then have to switch over to reflex sight. What about those taking cover when you fire at them, only see much smaller targets where a scope is better.
Reflex on a semiauto to me at those ranges relies more on luck and firing lots more shots to get a hit meaning you need to have more ammo and lots more loaded mags. But I agree that most situations today are normal home defense. Just really need to practice shot gun and pistol. Why practice AR semiauto or long range shooting? for the day north korea invades, the stock market collapse, zombies, martial law with military on wrong side.. etc.

tacticalcity
12-22-2014, 7:21 PM
I like both Aimpoint and EoTech. I know that is a bit like saying you like both Mac and PC, Chevy and Ford, Coke and Pepsi, etc. But I find they both have some really great features.

I am personally running an Aimpoint T1 on my primary self defense AR. I have a backup setup almost the same. I've been debating about putting an EoTech EXPS on it for a while, just don't have the money right now. We'll see.

I ran the XPS for a while there, and really enjoyed it.

MXRider
12-22-2014, 7:24 PM
Another option is a magnifier behind a red dot.

tacticalcity
12-22-2014, 7:26 PM
again. i agree with cqb reflex is better under 50 yards. but we are talking 50 to 200 yards. I would use shot gun for home defense or pistol.

Just saying if there was ever a situation where I had only one gun say being attacked by roving mob in TEOTWAWKI and being rushed in at 300 to 50 yards
I don't want to carry two rifles on me. one for long range 300 to 200 then have to switch over to reflex sight. What about those taking cover when you fire at them, only see much smaller targets where a scope is better.
Reflex on a semiauto to me at those ranges relies more on luck and firing lots more shots to get a hit meaning you need to have more ammo and lots more loaded mags. But I agree that most situations today are normal home defense. Just really need to practice shot gun and pistol. Why practice AR semiauto or long range shooting? for the day north korea invades, the stock market collapse, zombies, martial law with military on wrong side.. etc.

If I had to bug out on foot and therefore could only bring one rifle, I would have it be setup for CQB. Then have a detachable magnifier one me as well. My Glock would also be on my hip.

But short of WW3/Apocalypse I don't see it happening. Where as there is a chance, though small, of needing to use the rifle for self defense.

Given a choice, in either scenario, I would ideally want an AR and a pistol. I am proficient with both. Where as I am just not proficient enough with a shotgun to chose it over the AR platform. Go with what ya know is my motto.

To each their own.

In any case, I've got to go. So be well!

turinreza
12-22-2014, 7:30 PM
Another option is a magnifier behind a red dot.

mentioned in the nutnfancy video.
becomes too bulky.

turinreza
12-22-2014, 7:35 PM
found this

http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/occluded-eye-aiming/

says it can use scope as 1x red dot but takes 2 seconds to switch to long range

sunborder
12-22-2014, 7:38 PM
If you're really that worried about it, put a 1-6x, 1-4x, 4x, 2.5x, etc... on top, and put a red dot on a 45 mount. It's extra weight, but if you are seriously asking this question, then you're not going to be happy with "less." Realistically, for defensive use, (unless you live in a secluded mountain retreat with unfriendly neighbors) or hunting in brush, go with the red dot. Magnifier not necessary. For hunting in open terrain, go with the scope. Anything else is silly unless you are Mil/LE.

MXRider
12-22-2014, 8:07 PM
mentioned in the nutnfancy video.

becomes too bulky.


I could care less what that guy thinks. Fact is they can be very versatile and cost effective. I also wouldn't say they are that much bulkier than the other quality 1X-4X optics.

jmf_tracy
12-22-2014, 9:08 PM
my $.02
my favorite set-up is my M4forgery or AK with the Bushnell Elite Tactical 1-6.5x24 FFP BTR2. at 1x power with illuminaion turned on, it is like a red dot. I also have the option to use magnification anytime. For me this is easily good from 0-300 yards/meters. YMMV.
I did use this set-up in my recent rifle skillbuilder at FrontSight and i was very happy with it. YMMV.

static2126
12-23-2014, 1:25 AM
Just run a 1-4x/6x/8x and be done with it. You have the best of both worlds for a little bit of weight that...let's be honest, you will not care about because we're going to be taking it to and from the range in a nicely padded case and many of us dont go humping the rifle out in a zombie or red dawn like scenario ;)

If you are doing tactical stuff like CQB, room clearing or shooting inside 200 yards, but are only expecting MOM (minute of man), then I see a red dot as the go to optic.

Agreed on this. Also red dot shines from unconventional shooting positions. Anything 100 yards and under red dot or holographic is much faster. I am even faster with an eotech vs a red dot but the battery life makes it a no go for me

static2126
12-23-2014, 1:30 AM
That's why variables have gotten so popular. 1x-4x 1.5x-6x etc. They don't compromise much at close distances and they give you a lot of flexibility. The downside is good ones aren't cheap.

You can lose the dot in a variable as most are not true 1x. That said it is close enough. Having done a few rifle courses shooting to 100 with a red dot and variable scope, I can hit a headbox at 100 prone with a red dot. Good enough and no need to worry about scope shadow and lighting on the 1-4x

static2126
12-23-2014, 1:33 AM
Uh, no...not at all! Not if the primary objective is home defense/self-defense/CQB style shooting. But there are styles of shooting where it is the ideal choice.

Again, terrible idea in real life for CQB. They look great on paper, and are something people who want to create an all purpose rifle would want to consider. But in real life these are best used on an SPR or Recce type build where most your shots are medium range. If most of your shots are 100-300 yards, but you occasionally need to shoot closer-up then this is a good setup. But in CQB, 90%+ of your shots are very close up. A 50 yard shot would be rare. A 100 yard shot would be extremely rare. And a 300 yard shot would be a three eyed unicorn.

Take a CQB class with one and you will quickly realize why. Your speed and effectiveness gets cut almost in half. Not kidding. It is really that noticeable of a difference between one of these and a red dot.

There about 1000+ threads and articles going into full detail as to why this is.

But I will sum it up.

This is still a setup that is comprising too much at self defense distances to gain rewards for shots taken further out to be useful for CQB.

However, it is ideal for a scout rifle or over-watch type precision rifle where you can pick and chose your shots and are not having to acquire and fire in fraction of a second or die. Yes, there is a red dot backup sight. Keyword being "backup". It is there in case somebody sneaks up on you while you were concentrating and picking off their buddies from your perch or hide. It is not setup in a way where it is the sight you want to be using for 90% of your shots. Likewise, the scope it self even at 1x is much slower than a red dot because of the tube shadow. Plus you would always have to have it at 1X, and would only be able to take advantage of the magnification on those extremely rare times when you are surprising the opposition. Not something we get to do in civilian life without going to prison. When you've only got a fraction of a second to get a decent sight picture and fire, a red dot is VASTLY superior to this setup.

Put even more simply:

The guys knocking down the doors and clearing the building would be better served with a standard red dot. The guy keeping over-watch on the roof top across the street should be using one these 1-4 variable scopes with a red-dot backup. A little "Hollywood" but that is the best way I can think of to describe where each sight finds its ideal role in a non-hunting environment. Now for hunting, there are lots of situations where this type optic would be ideal. The main differences being the wild life is not shooting back and you can engage animals at greater distances and still be within the legal frame work of our society.

If you doubt me, take a CQB course and run the red dot one day and this setup the next. I promise that you'll be convinced. You will notice a huge difference in easy of use and your speed and performance.

This. Unless you have tried both in courses, your input is based on flawed premise.

static2126
12-23-2014, 1:35 AM
i agree with cqb but i guess for self defense there are two other points:
1) with a scope you can practice better shot placement than with a red dot
because the dot is so big at 100 yards, better shot placement means less rounds spent to be effective.
2) if there are hostage concerns or friendlies mixed in i would be more inclined to be as accurate as possible even at 50 yards. Would you take out a hostage take holding a hostage with a red dot ever or with a scope ever?

When will you be taking 100 yard shots legally as a civilian? Also I don't care how good the shooter is at 50 yards, unless you are trained in a stressful situation please don't take that shot if I'm the hostage. I will figure it out vs probably getting shot in the face by my support.

23 Blast
12-23-2014, 5:19 AM
Another option is a magnifier behind a red dot.


Was wondering when someone would mention this.

For general purposes, I think an (unmagnified) red dot is a great option. For hunting, obviously a scope is better. Having the red dot with a magnifier combines both.

Either way - are we seriously considering rifles for HD? Unless your abode is a ranch or farm house on several acres and your nearest neighbor is a mile away and any unwanted visitors to your property had to go through some exertions to even get to your front door --- I think a rifle is overkill. If you're the typical suburban or urban dweller with neighbors on all four sides well within less than 100 feet of the walls of your home, blasting a home intruder with a rifle (especially one kitted out like a SEAL in Afghanistan is a ticket to a jail cell.

static2126
12-23-2014, 6:37 AM
5.56 have less penetration than a 9mm (in general depending on load). SCR doensn't look scary

serjm1a1
12-23-2014, 6:47 AM
I run both a red dot and a fixed 4x. 20" has the 4x and the 14.5" has a red dot. With the 4 x, 200 to 600 meters is pretty simple if you do your part, off hand shooting is a lot harder though. With the red dot, 50 to 400 meters is pretty doable and is much easier to shoot off hand. Both have prose and cons, both are extremely fun!

Jimi Jah
12-23-2014, 7:21 AM
Depends on your eyesite. If great, you can do well with an Aimpoint. If not, those 1x4 or 1x6 scopes allow the shooter to get the site and target in sharp focus.

FX-05 Xiuhcoatl
12-23-2014, 7:42 AM
None, iron sights for me, if I have to pick it will be PRISM scope in 1x or 2.5x