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tazmanian devil dog
05-18-2008, 5:49 PM
Simple poll question:

Would you carry an FN Five-Seven as a duty pistol?

Yes


or



No

VegasND
05-18-2008, 7:55 PM
Wouldn't take a job where there's a 'duty gun' even though I think my CHL should allow me to carry 24/7 everywhere I go.

So, no.


Also, a friend in AZ has one, makes a great plinking / varmint pistol if you can afford the ammo.

Ech0Sierra
05-18-2008, 8:08 PM
Ammo doesn't hve amazing terminal ballistics, so no. I'll stick to .40/.45

Knifemaker
05-18-2008, 9:10 PM
Hell yes, with a 30 rd clip knock down energy similair to a .45 atuo, better penetration through clothing, what else there is more I cant remember.

Knight
05-18-2008, 9:13 PM
knock down energy similair to a .45 atuo

Can you post the comparison #'s on this?

What Just Happened?
05-18-2008, 9:22 PM
Wiki says

5.7x28mm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7x28mm)
200 - 500 joules

.45acp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP)
400 - 500 joules

I do somehow doubt that 400 - 500 joules from the 5.7, tho'

Knifemaker
05-18-2008, 9:22 PM
Can you post the comparison #'s on this?


I'll see if I can find them, I think it was on this forum...

slick_711
05-18-2008, 9:26 PM
Hell yes, with a 30 rd clip knock down energy similair to a .45 atuo, better penetration through clothing, what else there is more I cant remember.

WTF are you smoking similar to a .45 auto. :p

And this is California, there is no issue with clothing penetration. That is only an issue in the Northeast where it's 0 degrees and people wear a huge coat over multiple shirts. You really think my .45Auto SXTs aren't going to go through a t-shirt?

What Just Happened?
05-18-2008, 9:45 PM
I think the clothing problem was more with the clothes plugging up the hollowpoint's hollow and not letting it expand.

slick_711
05-18-2008, 9:49 PM
I understood that good Sir. Put a t-shirt in front of a block of ballistic gelatin and see what happens with any good quality .45Auto JHP. ;)

I'm not trying to argue, and I think 5.7 is a decent round in some applications, but it is far from an ideal 1 shot stop sidearm, and it doesn't compare to .45 in that respect.

Knifemaker
05-18-2008, 10:00 PM
WTF are you smoking similar to a .45 auto. :p

And this is California, there is no issue with clothing penetration. That is only an issue in the Northeast where it's 0 degrees and people wear a huge coat over multiple shirts. You really think my .45Auto SXTs aren't going to go through a t-shirt?

yeah, nobody wears jackets in all of CA, I just aclimate to the 30deg temps here in the winter....:smilielol5:


Here is a great thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=196065with back and fourth speculation with some facts thrown in.

I was mistaken about the muzzle energy.I thought a couple of the loadings had muzzle energy close to that of the .45, the list I was ready stated the .45 energy was 480 ft lbs and the 5.7 was 460 but this was out of the 16 inch carbine barrel.The pistol energy with the same ammo was only 315 ft lbs. So I was wrong about the energy.


With that said look at some of the pics in the thread mentioned above, look at the penetration in the wet phone books and what the bullets do after going through a class II vest. I still would have no problem using this as a duty weapon. I do have one, its not real accurate out at a distance but up close in pistol gunfight range I think it would be fine. Pus the 20/30 rd mags.

Knifemaker
05-18-2008, 10:04 PM
I understood that good Sir. Put a t-shirt in front of a block of ballistic gelatin and see what happens with any good quality .45Auto JHP. ;)

I'm not trying to argue, and I think 5.7 is a decent round in some applications, but it is far from an ideal 1 shot stop sidearm, and it doesn't compare to .45 in that respect.

In my opinion there is no guranteed one stop shot pistol, period. I dont know where you live but saying I live in CA and dont need to sorry about clothing other than a T shirt is a joke. If you really believe this I hope your not in a situation where your proved wrong some day.

FMJBT
05-18-2008, 10:14 PM
Even with similar amounts of "knock down power", I'd still opt for the .45 ACP. It seems to me that the slower, heavier round will have better energy transfer onto/into a target than the faster, lighter round. Given the magazine restrictions here in CA, the extra capacity of the 5.7 isn't a real advantage either. I do like the 5.7, but for a duty pistol I'd stick with the .45. Having said that, I'd take either one of them over the M-9 9mm that is currently issued to me as a sidearm.:D

Two Shots
05-18-2008, 10:22 PM
Elite's ProtecTOR[TM] cartridge is ready to tackle any self defense situation. Achieving speeds just under 2,000 feet per second from the pistol, performance on target is utterly devastating as more than 350 Foot pounds of energy drive this bullet home. Penetration, hydrostatic shock affects, and the elastic wound channel are awesome, and in fact very reminiscent of a high power rifle. Penetration is greater than other loadings, but because of the projectile used, over penetration is not an issue.

Shot-placement is the most important variable when confronted with dangerous situations and you should not rely solely on the performance
of ammunition for your safety. As with all shootings, shot placement is the most important aspect of wound ballistics; far above projectile choice.

http://www.eliteammunition.com/ammo.htm

IMHO: This round has yet to proved itself as a good duty weapon, Unless you have some other info. If thats what my department said is the duty weapon then I'd practice alot more (If they would supply the ammo)

JTROKS
05-18-2008, 10:29 PM
Although I'd prefer a round that starts with .4 I would carry a 5.7 for duty. I think Two Shots just about said it all.

M. Sage
05-18-2008, 10:32 PM
I'd carry it if it was likely that anybody I had to shoot at would be wearing Kevlar.

But in that situation, I'd opt for a rifle and put whatever handgun I had on backup duty.

1911su16b870
05-18-2008, 10:55 PM
IMO only carry something that you have handled and run for over 1000 rounds minimum. Your muscle memory requires thousands of rounds to groove into place.

Spearo
05-18-2008, 10:58 PM
1911 in 10mm

battleship
05-18-2008, 11:18 PM
A S.F. police officer friend of mine has the FN 5.7 as his off duty gun, not sure if it is his back up gun, hmm do police departments have a say in what gun can be a back up gun. either way he loves the ugly looking gun. actually its grown on me to, wish it was made of alloy though.

leelaw
05-18-2008, 11:21 PM
While I would like the idea of having a duty gun that can penetrate through armor, I would be very apprehensive about carrying a gun that could go through my own armor.

I think I'd stick with 9mm, .40, or .45.

slick_711
05-18-2008, 11:57 PM
In my opinion there is no guranteed one stop shot pistol, period. I dont know where you live but saying I live in CA and dont need to sorry about clothing other than a T shirt is a joke. If you really believe this I hope your not in a situation where your proved wrong some day.

Forgive me, I'm in San Diego, this 30 degree weather you speak of is an issue of my long forgotten past. Nonetheless, the possible benefits of 5.7 do not outweigh it's disadvantages. 20 round mags? So what, can't have that in CA. so you get 2 more rounds of 5.7 than you would of .45? Or the same number of 10mm? If you want to bring the clothing and penetration argument in as a main factor, that is fine, then I'll suggest we carry 10mm. Such a low mass round, out of a short barrel, with no track record to speak of, I just refuse to trust my life to it. I'm also well aware that there is no one shot caliber, but there are certainly some more likely to do so than others, and statistically, .45ACP & .357 are the forerunners.

And yes, shot placement is the #1 factor. So it is important that you carry something you shoot well with, but I'm better and quicker back on target with my 1911 than the FiveSevens that I have shot. So assuming we train and we all get to the point shot placement is perfect? What do you trust your life to? a 5.7mm HP opening up to maybe 10mm? Or a .45 opening up to a little under 20mm? That is under the assumption the 5.7 even opens up at all? At the quoted velocities I wouldn't trust it to perform consistently & reliably with any more stopping power than an FMJ round would.

They are nice guns... they may prove themselves, and may find specific uses they are well tailored to, but you'll never catch me carrying one. Their body armor defeating capabilities are irrelevant, for that I'd reach for an AR, and for anything else I'll trust my 1911 (or Glock, or Sig, or anything time tested and proven in a traditional caliber). This is all of course my personal opinion, so please don't take offense.

CSDGuy
05-19-2008, 12:16 AM
The pistol is basically a niche gun. It has its uses, but for general protection work, I'd prefer something with a proven track record. I doubt that most people would be in situations where they'd need that pistol specifically. I think that the pistol is an answer in search of a problem.

Moonclip
05-19-2008, 1:18 AM
If you feel comfortable packing something with the ballistics of a .22mag RIFLE then go for it!

-hanko
05-19-2008, 5:09 AM
I'll see if I can find them, I think it was on this forum...
I'd look for another source:rolleyes:

-hanko

gunrun45
05-19-2008, 9:04 AM
Yes, with propper ammo in a heart beat.

Waingro
05-19-2008, 9:33 AM
10mm we all can agree upon I think.

Knifemaker
05-19-2008, 9:42 AM
Forgive me, I'm in San Diego, this 30 degree weather you speak of is an issue of my long forgotten past. Nonetheless, the possible benefits of 5.7 do not outweigh it's disadvantages. 20 round mags? So what, can't have that in CA. so you get 2 more rounds of 5.7 than you would of .45? Or the same number of 10mm? If you want to bring the clothing and penetration argument in as a main factor, that is fine, then I'll suggest we carry 10mm. Such a low mass round, out of a short barrel, with no track record to speak of, I just refuse to trust my life to it. I'm also well aware that there is no one shot caliber, but there are certainly some more likely to do so than others, and statistically, .45ACP & .357 are the forerunners.

And yes, shot placement is the #1 factor. So it is important that you carry something you shoot well with, but I'm better and quicker back on target with my 1911 than the FiveSevens that I have shot. So assuming we train and we all get to the point shot placement is perfect? What do you trust your life to? a 5.7mm HP opening up to maybe 10mm? Or a .45 opening up to a little under 20mm? That is under the assumption the 5.7 even opens up at all? At the quoted velocities I wouldn't trust it to perform consistently & reliably with any more stopping power than an FMJ round would.

They are nice guns... they may prove themselves, and may find specific uses they are well tailored to, but you'll never catch me carrying one. Their body armor defeating capabilities are irrelevant, for that I'd reach for an AR, and for anything else I'll trust my 1911 (or Glock, or Sig, or anything time tested and proven in a traditional caliber). This is all of course my personal opinion, so please don't take offense.

I hear ya:~) I have one and have a CCW but Iam not carrying mine. He asked if you would carry it for a duty gun so Iam guessing he meant if you were a police officer or some type of law enforcment so the 20/30 rd mags would be avaibile to you here in CA. Yeah Iam interested to hear how they actually perform in the filed. They dont really need to expand if they are working by tumbling. I dont totally disagree with you, on ym permit are my .32 mag, a 1911 .45 and a .44. I like the larger slower moving stuff to but Iam also open to the new tech too.

Knifemaker
05-19-2008, 9:43 AM
I'd look for another source:rolleyes:

-hanko

I hear ya, thats why I did if you read my other post with the link to another forum!:D

Oldnoob
05-19-2008, 12:02 PM
i think i will carry as a back up or conceal. it it small, hi-cap and has a great penetrate powers. just in case Hollywood robbery happen again.

shawnyteee
05-19-2008, 12:34 PM
Most realistic distance for a on duty action would be no more than 25 yards. Over penetration with the 5/7? I would take a high grain hp round but thats if I have a choice. Say hello to police issue FMJ.

JBird33
05-19-2008, 9:29 PM
Why do some of you guys bring up high-cap mags? We can't use them here in Cali for the 5.7 - the gun didn't exist before the ban, so don't try telling any LEO that you had them pre-2000 ;)

heavyrecoil
05-19-2008, 10:04 PM
...well it looks interesting and kinda futuristic-ish, but have any US agenicies/departments actually approved it as a duty gun? I can't think of any.

And +1 to Waingro's post-- a 10mm will be just fine, thank you!!!:)

MrSlippyFist
05-20-2008, 11:22 AM
Why do some of you guys bring up high-cap mags? We can't use them here in Cali for the 5.7 - the gun didn't exist before the ban, so don't try telling any LEO that you had them pre-2000 ;)

The question was "would you use it as a duty weapon?" As in - LE or government agencies that are exempt from the 10 rd mag law, and can use the hi-cap mags.

...well it looks interesting and kinda futuristic-ish, but have any US agenicies/departments actually approved it as a duty gun? I can't think of any.

And +1 to Waingro's post-- a 10mm will be just fine, thank you!!!:)


US Agencies using the 5.7x28mm Weapons


P90

Addison, TX PD
Atlanta, GA PD
Batesburg-Leesville, SC PD
Bellevue, NE PD
Bentonville, AR PD
Benton County, AR SO
Birmingham, AL PD
Bolton, NC PD
Bryan, TX PD
Burbank, CA PD
Camden, SC PD
Charles County, MD SO
Charleston County, SC SO
Chula Vista, CA PD
Columbia, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MO PD
Daleville, AL PD
Davie County, NC SO
Denton, TX UNT PD
Doraville, GA PD
Duluth, GA PD
Edina, MN PD
Edmund, OK PD
Fairfield, AL PD
Grand Forks, ND PD
Greenwood County, SC SD
Hallsville, MO PD
Houston, TX PD
Indianapolis, IN PD
Jacksonville, FL PD
Jefferson County, OH SO
JSOC, FT Bragg, NC
Las Vegas, NV PD
Lawrenceville, GA PD
Lexington, SC PD
Lincoln Borough, PA PD
Little Rock, AR PD
Mansfield, LA PD
North Little Rock, AR PD
Olathe, KS PD
Palm Beach, FL PD
Palm Beach County, FL SO
Pasco County, FL SO
Ramsey County, MN SO
Richland County, SC SO
Salt Lake City, UT PD
Schenectady, NY PD
Sioux Falls, SD PD
Sparta, NJ PD
Tennessee State Police ERT
US Army Special Operations Command, FT. Bragg NC
US Defense Protective Service
US Federal Protective Service
US Secret Service
Washoe County, NV SO
West Columbia, SC PD
Zephyr Hills, FL PD



Five-seveN

Atlanta, GA PD
Bellevue, NE PD
Benton County, AR SO
Bentonville, AR PD
Birmingham, AL PD
Columbia, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MO PD
Davie County, NC SO
Davidson, NC PD
Davis County, UT SO
Duluth, GA PD
Fairfield, AL PD
Greenwood County, SC SO
Harahan, FL PD
Jennings County, IN SD
JSOC, FT Bragg, NC
Lawrenceville, GA PD
Lexington, SC PD
Lincoln Borough, PA PD
Oakdale, ME PD
Richland County, SC SO
Slidell, LA PD
Whiteoak Burrough, PA PD



P90 or Five-seveN

Atlanta, GA PD
Batesburg-Leesville, SC PD
Bellevue, NE PD
Bentonville, AR PD
Benton County, AR SO
Birmingham, AL PD
Bolton, NC PD
Bryan, TX PD
Burbank, CA PD
Camden, SC PD
Charles County, MD SO
Charleston County, SC SO
Chula Vista, CA PD
Columbia, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MO PD
Davidson, NC PD
Davie County, NC SO
Davis County, UT SO
Daleville, AL PD
Denton, TX UNT PD
Doraville, GA PD
Duluth, GA PD
Edina, MN PD
Edmund, OK PD
Fairfield, AL PD
Grand Forks, ND PD
Greenwood County, SC SO
Hallsville, MO PD
Harahan, FL PD
Houston, TX PD
Indianapolis, IN PD
Jacksonville, FL PD
Jefferson County, OH SO
Jennings County, IN SD
JSOC, FT Bragg, NC
Las Vegas, NV PD
Lawrenceville, GA PD
Lexington, SC PD
Lincoln Borough, PA PD
Little Rock, AR PD
North Little Rock, AR PD
Oakdale, ME PD
Olathe, KS PD
Palm Beach, FL PD
Palm Beach County, FL SO
Pasco County, FL SO
Ramsey County, MN SO
Richland County, SC SO
Salt Lake City, UT PD
Schenectady, NY PD
Sioux Falls, SD PD
Slidell, LA PD
Sparta, NJ PD
Tennessee State Police ERT
US Defense Protective Service
US Federal Protective Service
US Secret Service
Washoe County, NV SO
West Columbia, SC PD
Whiteoak Burrough, PA PD
Yeadon Borough, PA PD
Zephyr Hills, FL PD

http://fivesevenforum.net/showthread.php?t=7356&highlight=agency+list

heavyrecoil
05-20-2008, 1:15 PM
That's quite a list! Not too much representation in CA though.

Shane916
05-20-2008, 1:42 PM
Hell yes, with a 30 rd clip knock down energy similair to a .45 atuo, better penetration through clothing, what else there is more I cant remember.

Crazy. I was always under the impression they used magazines.