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  #1  
Old 04-22-2008, 9:39 AM
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Default Any way to build a CA legal AR pistol?

I've seen a few guys build up some AK receivers into pistols (I think by first building them as single shot and then converting them to semi...?) and I'm wondering if this is a possibility with an AR lower.

I don't seem to find any threads on the subject. Is there any post anybody has marked that they could point me to on AR pistols? Or does anyone have some idea as to whether or not an AR pistol build is something we Californians can even do...?

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 04-22-2008, 9:57 AM
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You have to build the lower from scratch ("80%" piece) or PPT a pistol lower. You can't start with a 100% rifle lower. If you build from scratch, the pistol has to start as a single shot. If you get a PPT'd pistol lower, you can go straight to semi.
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedrickel View Post
You have to build the lower from scratch ("80%" piece) or PPT a pistol lower. You can't start with a 100% rifle lower. If you build from scratch, the pistol has to start as a single shot. If you get a PPT'd pistol lower, you can go straight to semi.
Where would one look for a pistol lower to PPT? Could an FFL not just DROS a rifle lower as a pistol?
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalAR View Post
Where would one look for a pistol lower to PPT? Could an FFL not just DROS a rifle lower as a pistol?
Oh Jeezus no!

Aside from CA FFLs not being able to sell nonexempt unsafe handguns (unless they're exempt due to PPT or due to exemption of dimensionally-compliant single-action revolvers or single-shot handguns per 12133PC) you don't want something ever possibly categorized as a rifle or marked as rifle to end up as a pistol. (Unless you had a guarantee that it was a 'virgin' receiver never assembled - but again, the other CA issues take precedence).

There ARE Calguns vendors shipping 12133PC-exempt single-shot AR pistols into CA. That's likely easier than finding someone to PPT to you an OLL AR receiver that could legally be regarded as a pistol receiver.
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Oh Jeezus no!

Aside from CA FFLs not being able to sell nonexempt unsafe handguns (unless they're exempt due to PPT or due to exemption of dimensionally-compliant single-action revolvers or single-shot handguns per 12133PC) you don't want something ever possibly categorized as a rifle or marked as rifle to end up as a pistol. (Unless you had a guarantee that it was a 'virgin' receiver never assembled - but again, the other CA issues take precedence).

There ARE Calguns vendors shipping 12133PC-exempt single-shot AR pistols into CA. That's likely easier than finding someone to PPT to you an OLL AR receiver that could legally be regarded as a pistol receiver.
Wow. Hadn't even thought about the handgun roster! How guys like you keep all these laws straight in your head I doubt I will ever understand, but I'm sure glad you do!

This makes sense to me now. So if you get your hands on an exempt single-shot AR pistol how easy is it to convert to semi-auto? Is there a conversion guide like the OLL Assembly Guide at the top of this page that helped me immensely this past weekend?
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:48 PM
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There are about 4 highly packed with information threads on this subject.

The 3 ways are laid out (with getting the receiver being the main issue)

1.) Build from scratch the receiver (80%) as single shot, then convert to locked-mag semi
2.) import a single-shot AR pistol and DROS
3.) PPT of an AR pistol (or pistol lower - NOT rifle).
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Old 04-22-2008, 1:32 PM
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Ive seen some with integrated buffer springs too... Eliminating that buffer tube really made the pistol stand out to me.

Another thing added to my WANT list.
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Old 04-22-2008, 2:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uclaplinker View Post
There are about 4 highly packed with information threads on this subject.

The 3 ways are laid out (with getting the receiver being the main issue)

1.) Build from scratch the receiver (80%) as single shot, then convert to locked-mag semi
2.) import a single-shot AR pistol and DROS
3.) PPT of an AR pistol (or pistol lower - NOT rifle).
And I would want to know for certain that the AR "pistol" is indeed a pistol and not a plain old AR rifle frame that he (or the person before him, or the person before the person before him) that someone built into a pistol figuring "hell, who's gonna' know?". Not quite sure how you would do that other than contacting the original manufacturer.
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Old 04-22-2008, 3:15 PM
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are the pistols just a flying spit in the face to all these restrictive laws? did they exist before all these laws pwned our miserable lives?
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  #10  
Old 04-22-2008, 4:42 PM
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Quote:
There ARE Calguns vendors shipping 12133PC-exempt single-shot AR pistols into CA. That's likely easier than finding someone to PPT to you an OLL AR receiver that could legally be regarded as a pistol receiver.
And which vendors are those? I'm interested.
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Old 04-22-2008, 4:58 PM
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So let's say I get one of those single shot AR pistols. There are no legal limits how long of a barrel I can put on it, right? So I can install my 16" upper and by utilizing a bullet button I can legally own a 10 shot non-detachable mag semi. Is that legal?
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Old 04-22-2008, 6:59 PM
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so how about those dealers?
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  #13  
Old 04-22-2008, 7:26 PM
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Spikes
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  #14  
Old 04-22-2008, 7:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Z ME FLY View Post
Spikes
only AR pistol they have is a .22 rim fire or stripped lower.

http://spikestactical.com/catalog/pr...products_id=72

nether are on the doj list
my local guy that dros'ed my stag lower near 2 years ago said no way to do an AR pistol........so what ca ffl dealers will dros an AR pistol? nor-cal area

D&D is getting in pistol AR lowers from mega someday, but if I can't get one dros'ed what good are they?
can't dros it as a rifle and then make it a pistol, how are people drosing these things????
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Old 04-23-2008, 8:50 AM
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My thoughts exactly. I smell BS, but i could be wrong. I'm thinking I'll have to do an 80%, which I'm ok with as long as I can find somebody to professionally engrave "Pistol Only" onto the blank.
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Old 04-23-2008, 9:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Solidsnake87 View Post
My thoughts exactly. I smell BS, but i could be wrong. I'm thinking I'll have to do an 80%, which I'm ok with as long as I can find somebody to professionally engrave "Pistol Only" onto the blank.
even then, how do you get the DROS done?
is these a special form you send in yourself with no FFL help nededed?

I have searched a bit, here ar15.com etc, not sure if I know more or just know I'm more confused!

just see make it single shot, then convert to fixed 10 round semi
single shot easy, block off gas port, & herd some say install a blank mag with say bullet button, but who inspects this? who makes a blank mag? guess I could machine a solid block of aluminum with a mag catch to install it if need be

Anyone that has answers other then short one liners please reply, or my dream dies, lol
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Old 04-23-2008, 9:41 AM
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Originally Posted by 12voltguy View Post
even then, how do you get the DROS done?
is these a special form you send in yourself with no FFL help nededed?

I have searched a bit, here ar15.com etc, not sure if I know more or just know I'm more confused!

just see make it single shot, then convert to fixed 10 round semi
single shot easy, block off gas port, & herd some say install a blank mag with say bullet button, but who inspects this? who makes a blank mag? guess I could machine a solid block of aluminum with a mag catch to install it if need be

Anyone that has answers other then short one liners please reply, or my dream dies, lol
looks like you got some more searching to do - it's been completely covered here in the past month or 2.

only reason mines isn't here yet is the one that's supposed to be building my upper doesn't have 7" barrels in stock so i have to save up a little more cash and build one myself.
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Old 04-23-2008, 9:53 AM
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Ar15.com research there....... I am thinking about an AR pistol, probably will get a lower and buy all the parts within the next couple of months maybe....
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Z ME FLY View Post
Ar15.com research there....... I am thinking about an AR pistol, probably will get a lower and buy all the parts within the next couple of months maybe....
you can't just get a lower and then build it later like a rifle. it has to arrive at your ffl as a completed virgin single shot pistol.
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z ME FLY View Post
Ar15.com research there....... I am thinking about an AR pistol, probably will get a lower and buy all the parts within the next couple of months maybe....
Dude, you likely can't get a pistol lower by itself in CA unless it's PPT'd to you - rare/unlikely.

Your best bet is to search for some of the prior threads discussing this, as mentioned above, and find vendors selling single-shot pistols built on legit pistol receivers - with 6" min bbl length and 10.5" min overall length, measured parallel to the bore. [These pistols achieve single-shot status via use of a single-shot 'sled' (typically employed for shooting long .223 80gr VLD bullets which do not feed/fit in a magazine) and which are locked in with a mag lock device.]

Such a single-shot pistol should be imported into CA to/by your FFL entirely compliant with 12133PC. After you DROS it and pick it up 10 days later, you are free to modify it into any other legal configuration: there is no required permanence of single-shot status.

Don't rely on ARFCom for this CA-specific stuff.
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by DrunkSkunk View Post
looks like you got some more searching to do - it's been completely covered here in the past month or 2.

only reason mines isn't here yet is the one that's supposed to be building my upper doesn't have 7" barrels in stock so i have to save up a little more cash and build one myself.
thx
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Dude, you likely can't get a pistol lower by itself in CA unless it's PPT'd to you - rare/unlikely.

Your best bet is to search for some of the prior threads discussing this, as mentioned above, and find vendors selling single-shot pistols built on legit pistol receivers - with 6" min bbl length and 10.5" min overall length, measured parallel to the bore. [These pistols achieve single-shot status via use of a single-shot 'sled' (typically employed for shooting long .223 80gr VLD bullets which do not feed/fit in a magazine) and which are locked in with a mag lock device.]

Such a single-shot pistol should be imported into CA to/by your FFL entirely compliant with 12133PC. After you DROS it and pick it up 10 days later, you are free to modify it into any other legal configuration: there is no required permanence of single-shot status.

Don't rely on ARFCom for this CA-specific stuff.
like I said, my dealer will not DROS any AR pistols
do you know any in nor-cal that will?
& you stated There ARE Calguns vendors shipping 12133PC-exempt single-shot AR pistols into CA.

can you just post that vendor here since you know it please?
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Old 04-23-2008, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
even then, how do you get the DROS done?
is these a special form you send in yourself with no FFL help nededed?

I have searched a bit, here ar15.com etc, not sure if I know more or just know I'm more confused!

just see make it single shot, then convert to fixed 10 round semi
single shot easy, block off gas port, & herd some say install a blank mag with say bullet button, but who inspects this? who makes a blank mag? guess I could machine a solid block of aluminum with a mag catch to install it if need be

Anyone that has answers other then short one liners please reply, or my dream dies, lol

No, no, no. Let me correct you here. From the reading I've done, building an 80% firearm is considered building a firearm from scratch. It is legal pretty much every where. Say you build an 80% AR receiver and built a RIFLE, then you are 100% in the clear. Here is where the problem lies. If you build a pistol on that same receiver it can easily be construed as a short barrelled rifle. So, to avoid a lot of potential crap, always label the lowers as "Pistol Only" like manufacturers do. As long as your pistol meets the legal critereon for ownership (like the CA regs) its a legal build. 80% builds DO NOT go through an FFL. Thats how people are able to get them. You can order an 80% receiver and have it sent right to your home because its NOT considered a firearm by the federal govt. until its completed. Once you build the pistol, you can voluntarily register it with the state for a small fee (like $20) right over the phone. Registration is VOLUNTARY not required. Personally, I;d register it as a pistol to have legitimated proof of the firearm as a pistol instead of a rifle.
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Old 04-23-2008, 12:18 PM
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It appears that if you build a pistol you probably should send in papers to DROS it to yourself.

If you build a pistol/handgun of any sort, it should (at least for a moment) be 'birthed' as a 12133PC-exempt dimensionally-compliant single-shot or single-action revolver
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Old 04-23-2008, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Solidsnake87 View Post
No, no, no. Let me correct you here. From the reading I've done, building an 80% firearm is considered building a firearm from scratch. It is legal pretty much every where. Say you build an 80% AR receiver and built a RIFLE, then you are 100% in the clear. Here is where the problem lies. If you build a pistol on that same receiver it can easily be construed as a short barrelled rifle. So, to avoid a lot of potential crap, always label the lowers as "Pistol Only" like manufacturers do. As long as your pistol meets the legal critereon for ownership (like the CA regs) its a legal build. 80% builds DO NOT go through an FFL. Thats how people are able to get them. You can order an 80% receiver and have it sent right to your home because its NOT considered a firearm by the federal govt. until its completed. Once you build the pistol, you can voluntarily register it with the state for a small fee (like $20) right over the phone. Registration is VOLUNTARY not required. Personally, I;d register it as a pistol to have legitimated proof of the firearm as a pistol instead of a rifle.

Thank you
I know a few of the places selling 80%er's
I'll just look up the reg that says I can convert it to semi auto
since this can be built at home, & regestered over the phone, they just take your word that it is single shot?
I have a CNC engraver, I might be able to engrave pistol on it, depends on how hard the anodized coating is, + my machine is setup for then sheet, but I can get it done.
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Old 04-23-2008, 2:10 PM
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80% lowers are not anodized. Its just a raw aluminum lower. Happy machinings! Give urself a custom logo, serial, model, and Pistol only mark. Then duracoat away! Adding California AR-Pistol might even help! :P
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Old 04-23-2008, 6:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Solidsnake87 View Post
80% lowers are not anodized. Its just a raw aluminum lower. Happy machinings! Give urself a custom logo, serial, model, and Pistol only mark. Then duracoat away! Adding California AR-Pistol might even help! :P
DuI'm a dumbass of course it's raw, I've seen aluminum & other types
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Old 04-23-2008, 6:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Solidsnake87 View Post
My thoughts exactly. I smell BS, but i could be wrong. I'm thinking I'll have to do an 80%, which I'm ok with as long as I can find somebody to professionally engrave "Pistol Only" onto the blank.


how about the company in the commercial forum that was offering them?

Your nose is pretty terrible.

Just because someone doesn't post up a list of FFLs doing something that's cutting edge doesn't mean it's not happening. It just means that you need to do some work to figure it out.
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Old 04-23-2008, 6:56 PM
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how about the company in the commercial forum that was offering them?

Your nose is pretty terrible.

Just because someone doesn't post up a list of FFLs doing something that's cutting edge doesn't mean it's not happening. It just means that you need to do some work to figure it out.
is there 1 post on this site you have not posted to?
do you have ADD or just an attention whore
don't tell me I'm the only one that noticed this, lol

help or don't, but you don't have to reply at all if you don't want to help guy.

I know your post count won't go up if you don't
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Old 04-23-2008, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Dude, you likely can't get a pistol lower by itself in CA unless it's PPT'd to you - rare/unlikely.
What about interfamilial transfer from an out of state parent or child?
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Old 04-23-2008, 8:26 PM
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how about the company in the commercial forum that was offering them?

Your nose is pretty terrible.

Just because someone doesn't post up a list of FFLs doing something that's cutting edge doesn't mean it's not happening. It just means that you need to do some work to figure it out.
Not everybody reads and sees every thread like you do. AR pistols have not exactly been the center of attention lately, at least to my notice. Then again I don't really cruise the pistol forum.
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Old 04-23-2008, 9:08 PM
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help or don't, but you don't have to reply at all if you don't want to help guy.

I know your post count won't go up if you don't
The dealers doing this like to stay on the "down low".
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Old 04-23-2008, 9:10 PM
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Originally Posted by DrunkSkunk View Post
you can't just get a lower and then build it later like a rifle. it has to arrive at your ffl as a completed virgin single shot pistol.
Technically, it does NOT have to arrive at your FFL as a finished single shot pistol.
It just has to be a finished single shot pistol during your DROS waiting period.

Concievably, an FFL could receive a stripped lower that's never been assembled as a rifle and he could put it together as a single shot pistol for sale using the single shot exemption to the roster.
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Old 04-23-2008, 9:15 PM
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aplinker aplinker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidsnake87 View Post
Not everybody reads and sees every thread like you do. AR pistols have not exactly been the center of attention lately, at least to my notice. Then again I don't really cruise the pistol forum.
My level of response was due to how you phrased you didn't know who had them. Read below for more info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12voltguy View Post
is there 1 post on this site you have not posted to?
do you have ADD or just an attention whore
don't tell me I'm the only one that noticed this, lol

help or don't, but you don't have to reply at all if you don't want to help guy.

I know your post count won't go up if you don't
So let's see... you didn't add anything to this thread, you insulted me, and you didn't notice the fact that I DID include useful information in my reply (by noting there are people selling them in the commercial forum)?

I couldn't care less about my post count. I never even pay attention to it, except for when people mention post counts.

My tone was a bit harsh because his exact line is, "I smell BS," not, "can anyone point out where they're for sale?"

Is there a reason you feel the need to be judgmental and assuming?

So, I'll hand hold a bit for your sake...


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=84805
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=80620


Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Technically, it does NOT have to arrive at your FFL as a finished single shot pistol.
It just has to be a finished single shot pistol during your DROS waiting period.

Concievably, an FFL could receive a stripped lower that's never been assembled as a rifle and he could put it together as a single shot pistol for sale using the single shot exemption to the roster.
I don't know that he could do that without a manufacturing FFL. We're allowed personal exemptions with our own, but it's unclear to me it's allowed in that case where an FFL does it so he can sell it.

IIRC that was the consensus, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdgfate View Post
What about interfamilial transfer from an out of state parent or child?
That works, but also falls under the "rare/unlikely" category.

Last edited by aplinker; 04-23-2008 at 9:22 PM..
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Old 04-23-2008, 9:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Technically, it does NOT have to arrive at your FFL as a finished single shot pistol.
It just has to be a finished single shot pistol during your DROS waiting period.

Conceivably, an FFL could receive a stripped lower that's never been assembled as a rifle and he could put it together as a single shot pistol for sale using the single shot exemption to the roster.

I'm not sure if it's in the single shot realm, or the single action revolver realm, but something comes to mind about the firearm arriving to the ffl in the proper configuration prior to the DROS... I'm leaning toward the SA exemption, but not 100%.
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