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  #1  
Old 04-21-2008, 12:28 PM
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Default Restoring Firearms Possession Rights in California

Since there has been some discussion of late regarding restoration of firearms rights following a felony conviction, TMLLP Managing Partner C.D. Michel has been kind enough a memorandum of law relating to the effect of Penal Code 17(b); Reduction to Misdemeanor On State and Federal Firearm Possession Prohibition. It lays out the relevant PC and case law quite nicely. If anyone has any additional questions relating to a personal case they should contact the firm directly.

http://www.calgunlaws.com/index.php/topic-summaries/530.html


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  #2  
Old 04-28-2008, 2:41 PM
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Default dang

It's hard enough to restore firearms owners rights for those without any sort of conviction or criminal history.

Good luck!
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  #3  
Old 06-24-2008, 6:23 PM
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Default blackwater

Did you get your gun rights back yet.......
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  #4  
Old 06-24-2008, 6:28 PM
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Heh, see the post above yours... (Not yet. )
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  #5  
Old 06-24-2008, 9:03 PM
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Heh, see the post above yours... (Not yet. )
What is holding it up? You were not convicted of any crime, what's the deal?
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  #6  
Old 06-26-2008, 1:09 AM
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The SD won't take me out of the system. I wish I had the money to sue them, but I don't so I have to wait.
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Old 06-26-2008, 2:07 AM
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Is it even possible for a convicted felon to get there 2nd ammendment rights restored? This is all news to me.
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  #8  
Old 06-26-2008, 7:09 AM
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Old 06-26-2008, 7:21 AM
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The SD won't take me out of the system. I wish I had the money to sue them, but I don't so I have to wait.
This might be a job for the Calguns foundation
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Old 06-26-2008, 8:39 AM
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Is it even possible for a convicted felon to get there 2nd ammendment rights restored? This is all news to me.
Just thought I would chime in this thread, as I originally came here to read discussion on the DC vs Heller decision and spotted this thread.

Yes, Felons can get thier gun rights restored. I was convicted in 2002 of a felony, non-voilent, non-gun, non-drug related, the court even allowed me to transfer my guns that I had to a family member. who kept them for me until i completed probation (5yrs) upon succesfully completing probation, we petitioned to judge to reduce my felony to a misdemeanor, and for expungement which was granted.

2 days later, walked in gun shop, bought me my first gun in 6 years, cleared NICS. and walked out the door, 3 months later, I was issued my Concealed Weapons Permit.

So yes, some felons can have thier rights restored. Luckliy I live in a gun freindly state of Idaho.
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  #11  
Old 06-27-2008, 8:35 AM
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Just curious.
On any applications that ask, which box do you check next to the question "Hey, Have you commited a felony?"

Do you check:
a) Yes, and then have to fill out is a section below that it was later reduced.
or
b) No, because having the wobbler reduced to a misdemeanor makes it so that your feloneous crime "never happened."
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Old 06-27-2008, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunn View Post
Just curious.
On any applications that ask, which box do you check next to the question "Hey, Have you commited a felony?"

Do you check:
a) Yes, and then have to fill out is a section below that it was later reduced.
or
b) No, because having the wobbler reduced to a misdemeanor makes it so that your feloneous crime "never happened."
Answer B, because the conviction was reduced to a misdemeanor, and is no longer treated as a felony conviction, in my case, the judge reduced it to a Misdeameanor, and entered a not guilty plea on my behalg, and expunged it from my record.
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  #13  
Old 06-28-2008, 6:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS View Post
Since there has been some discussion of late regarding restoration of firearms rights following a felony conviction, TMLLP Managing Partner C.D. Michel has been kind enough a memorandum of law relating to the effect of Penal Code 17(b); Reduction to Misdemeanor On State and Federal Firearm Possession Prohibition. It lays out the relevant PC and case law quite nicely. If anyone has any additional questions relating to a personal case they should contact the firm directly.

http://www.calgunlaws.com/article-494.html

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  #14  
Old 06-28-2008, 8:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
When I click the link, a webpage by IPOWER comes up saying,
Calgunlaws is down for renovations, it will be back up soon.
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  #15  
Old 06-28-2008, 11:22 AM
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I don't agree with having this thread sticky. It could give people the wrong impression that Calguns promotes granting/restoring gun rights to convicted felons. I don't have any problem with the information on the law being here, but do we really want to "promote" it? JMHO.
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  #16  
Old 06-29-2008, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by 1911_sfca View Post
I don't agree with having this thread sticky. It could give people the wrong impression that Calguns promotes granting/restoring gun rights to convicted felons. I don't have any problem with the information on the law being here, but do we really want to "promote" it? JMHO.
You really think all felonies, in other words anything the legislature deems to be a felony, should result in a permanent loss of constitutional rights?
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  #17  
Old 06-29-2008, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jondough View Post
Answer B, because the conviction was reduced to a misdemeanor, and is no longer treated as a felony conviction, in my case, the judge reduced it to a Misdeameanor, and entered a not guilty plea on my behalg, and expunged it from my record.
As the teacher said in school, "answer the question".

The answer is A. You committed a felony. Later it was reduced and expunged.
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  #18  
Old 06-29-2008, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
As the teacher said in school, "answer the question".

The answer is A. You committed a felony. Later it was reduced and expunged.
Incorrect.

Labor Code Sections 432.7 and 432.8, and Fair Employment Housing Commission regulations prohibit employers from requesting information concerning the following:

1. Arrests that have not resulted in a conviction;

2. Convictions that have been expunged, sealed, or statutorily eradicated;

3. Convictions in which the applicant was referred to or successfully participated in any pretrial or posttrial diversion program;

4. Misdemeanors for which probation has been successfully completed or otherwise discharged, and the case has been judicially dismissed; and

5. A marijuana-related misdemeanor that occurred more than two years ago.
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  #19  
Old 06-29-2008, 12:45 PM
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OK, but the OP asked, "On any applications that ask..."

That means apps for professional or government-issued licenses, or apps for CCWs, etc
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  #20  
Old 06-29-2008, 5:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
OK, but the OP asked, "On any applications that ask..."

That means apps for professional or government-issued licenses, or apps for CCWs, etc
The government can't ask you "Have you ever committed a felony". Well they can ask, but they can't require you to answer.
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  #21  
Old 06-29-2008, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS View Post
The government can't ask you "Have you ever committed a felony". Well they can ask, but they can't require you to answer.

What basis do you have to say that?

Somewhere, at some time, I read an attorney's advice that even expunged misdemeanors be disclosed....
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  #22  
Old 06-29-2008, 7:52 PM
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Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
What basis do you have to say that?

Somewhere, at some time, I read an attorney's advice that even expunged misdemeanors be disclosed....
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

This law has been around for a while.
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  #23  
Old 06-30-2008, 11:09 AM
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At what point did the discussion morph to self-incriminating testimony in criminal prosecutions?

....disclosure is not a prosecution....

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No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

This law has been around for a while.
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  #24  
Old 06-30-2008, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunn View Post
Just curious.
On any applications that ask, which box do you check next to the question "Hey, Have you commited a felony?"

Do you check:
a) Yes, and then have to fill out is a section below that it was later reduced.
or
b) No, because having the wobbler reduced to a misdemeanor makes it so that your feloneous crime "never happened."
So, it all depends on the question:

1, Have you ever committed a crime?

2. Were you ever ARRESTED for a crime?

3. Have you ever been CONVICTED of a crime?


What's going to happen when they pull your criminal history?

"A successful expungement will not erase the criminal record, but rather the finding of guilt will be changed to a dismissal.[3] The petitioner then honestly and legally can answer to a question about his criminal history, with some exceptions, that he has not been convicted of that crime"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expungement#California

Last edited by GuyW; 07-17-2008 at 1:09 PM..
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  #25  
Old 06-30-2008, 8:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS View Post
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

This law has been around for a while.
You are wrong, if you apply for any professional license or for a peace officer status in the State of California you have to disclose the fact that you were convicted of a felony;Period. Just check with the Department of Real Estate and look at the application for a real esate license; it specifically states that expungements under pc 1203.4 must be disclosed, you can still get your license issued but you must disclose, for peace officer status you are disqualified for life if you were ever convicted of a felony as an adult even if you had an expungement under 1203.4.
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Old 07-06-2008, 1:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phm View Post
You are wrong, if you apply for any professional license or for a peace officer status in the State of California you have to disclose the fact that you were convicted of a felony;Period. Just check with the Department of Real Estate and look at the application for a real esate license; it specifically states that expungements under pc 1203.4 must be disclosed, you can still get your license issued but you must disclose, for peace officer status you are disqualified for life if you were ever convicted of a felony as an adult even if you had an expungement under 1203.4.
PHM,

you are partially correct, We only need to disclose our expungment for Professional Licensure, i.e, Medical Doctor, Real Estate Agent, Dentist, And for Peace Officer Jobs, but this also Includes any State Job, including The State lottery, or when Contracting with the state lottery.
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Old 07-06-2008, 7:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jondough View Post
PHM,

you are partially correct, We only need to disclose our expungment for Professional Licensure, i.e, Medical Doctor, Real Estate Agent, Dentist, And for Peace Officer Jobs, but this also Includes any State Job, including The State lottery, or when Contracting with the state lottery.
Agreed, but where am I partially correct? I wasn't going to list every single type of professional license, I just mentioned Real Estate license and one example. As far a peace officer's go anyone convicted of a felony even if expunged under 1203.4 is ineligible for life; it's still considered a conviction in the eyes of the law.
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  #28  
Old 07-13-2008, 10:41 AM
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BWO, did you get your old guns back from the case?
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  #29  
Old 07-16-2008, 6:28 PM
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If you click on the original link posted bythe OP you get a page not found reference.

Back on 6/28/08 a user made a similar point.

Not good for a sticky.
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Old 07-16-2008, 7:40 PM
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GuyW, you are confusing 1203.4 with 17b(3). There are two types of expungement in California. 1203.4 dismissals of accusatory pleadings do not apply for running for public office, application for licensure by the state, contracting with the state lottery, and depending on who you ask, owning firearms. However, a 17b(3) reduction to misdemenor applies "for all purposes" - period. You do not and never had a felony conviction. Read the TMLLP memo posted in the beginning of this thread. It cites the case law that makes it golden.
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  #31  
Old 07-16-2008, 7:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
GuyW, you are confusing 1203.4 with 17b(3). There are two types of expungement in California. 1203.4 dismissals of accusatory pleadings do not apply for running for public office, application for licensure by the state, contracting with the state lottery, and depending on who you ask, owning firearms. However, a 17b(3) reduction to misdemenor applies "for all purposes" - period. You do not and never had a felony conviction. Read the TMLLP memo posted in the beginning of this thread. It cites the case law that makes it golden.
I'll check it out so that I am not confused.

Last edited by GuyW; 07-17-2008 at 1:10 PM..
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Old 07-16-2008, 9:27 PM
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I just went back and checked the calgunlaws link and it's a dead link.

Well, here is an older CalGuns discussion on this same topic:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=92885

and the case law is People v Gilbrith. And strangely, my link to it in the old post has been killed, with the notice not to be published added...

Quote:
"[O]nce a court has reduced a wobbler to a misdemeanor pursuant to . . . section 17, the crime is thereafter regarded as a misdemeanor 'for all purposes.' This unambiguous language means what it says, and unless the Legislature states otherwise, a person such as [defendant] stands convicted of a misdemeanor, not a felony, for all purposes upon the court so declaring."
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Old 07-17-2008, 7:36 AM
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......
...............
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It makes it bigger and longer.

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Old 07-17-2008, 3:54 PM
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Originally Posted by BigBamBoo View Post
As far as buying a gun...I say NO to a felony. In the last few months I have bought and/or transfered 8 guns including two handguns.

I go in to talk with the Sheriff next week with all my court papers and he is going to let me know if they (the Sheriff's dept.) will ok a CCW for me. From our phone conversation he said it should not be a problem if DOJ says I can own guns.

So yeah...it works.

Take care,Stan
Are you in California? I must say I'd agree with the law - if you did something dumb years ago that was non-violent/drug related but were able to keep your nose clean since and paid your dues, you should be given the rights of every taxpayer.

Let us know how it shakes out, I'd be curious to hear what the Sheriff says.
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Old 07-17-2008, 4:48 PM
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.........
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
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It makes it bigger and longer.

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Old 08-06-2008, 7:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
So, it all depends on the question:

1, Have you ever committed a crime?

2. Were you ever ARRESTED for a crime?

3. Have you ever been CONVICTED of a crime?[/url]

The problem I've run into is that I was arrested for something that didn't really happen. When I went to court I had to plea down to Disorderly Conduct because a. I didn't have the money to go to court and b. I was a kid and was scared and didn't know what to do. I was certain (via my attorney) that I would get convicted, whether they had evidence or not, and they would throw the book at me. So.....Disorderly Conduct. But now....FFL transfers are being denied. The charge was eight years ago this month. Now what? I've started the appeal process with LEO.GOV (FBI- I think). But the intern on the phone when I called the CA DOJ said, and said it very smugly, "BANNED FOR LIFE!". WTF? People get out of prison after murder and I can't get a gun after being at the losing end of an argument?


ANY HELP/IDEAS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. I'm feeling pretty lost here.

Last edited by egnilk66; 08-06-2008 at 7:56 PM..
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Old 08-08-2008, 11:33 AM
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egnilk66 , don't be discouraged. I was in your shoes, but with a different charge. I also did something stupid when I was 18. All of us were probably young and stupid once. I really learned a great deal from that experience.

In my case, it was a felony wobbler. I did the 1203.4 and 17b to get it reduced to a misdemeanor and then set aside in 2002. This would have done it for me, but I was wrong. Just this year in February, I tried a purchase a firearm but was denied.

I was also lost and things seemed daunting in finding out why. I first started with FBI NICS, but realized that it is California DOJ who you need to deal with. I then called the firearms department in DOJ. A lady told me why I was turned down.

First is to get your Criminal history file and find out what is on it and what DOJ is seeing. For me, they had the wrong degree, first instead of second. Follow their dispute process when you get your history file. It took two tries to get the degree corrected. Once it was correct, the purchase went thru. DOJ is getting tough and said will not recognized a reduction to a misdemeanor if the charge was not a wobbler. In my case it was. They just had the wrong degree. They did see the reduction and set-asside, but with a first degree or non-wobble, they will deny your purchase.

The history file that was sent to me confirmed that they had inaccurate information for me.

Then really find out if your charge will have permenant disqualifier or 10 disqualifier. If not, use the process to dispute. In your claim of incompleteness, get certified court copies and sent that in with it. This process does work. It took me five month to get things corrected.

For me, the first try was someone not really reading the dispute form. I disputed further in a second letter as a reply. The second person took time to read it and call me about it. DOJ cannot simply correct your history file if it is wrong. They have to have the court retransmit or see if there is more. DOJ had to turn around and contact the court in my situation. DOJ was able to correct my incorrect charge and send me the new history file with the correct information.

If the process with the dispute does not work, you have the option to dispute the History file further with an Administrative Judge. DOJ will get this process going for you. All you have to do is dispute it to the supervisor of the person who is working with the dispute. You will have the burden of proof to state your case.
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  #38  
Old 08-08-2008, 12:41 PM
egnilk66 egnilk66 is offline
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PTD,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I just don't see how this could possibly be a ban for life....or even for 10 years. I mean... Ban for life = MURDERS and other VIOLENT crimes especially involving weapons.

I was just beat up by my chick....and when the cops showed up, I didn't throw her under the bus like I should have. Instead I took the fall... Man, what chicks'll do to ya.


ANyway...thanks for the long reply. It's good info and good to know that the system CAN work.


Thanks again,


Egnilk66
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  #39  
Old 09-01-2008, 5:12 PM
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BigBamBoo BigBamBoo is offline
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..............
__________________
Bring hay for my horse....wine for my men....and mud for my turtle!

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
- Sigmund Freud

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
It makes it bigger and longer.

Last edited by BigBamBoo; 08-03-2011 at 7:37 AM..
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  #40  
Old 09-01-2008, 6:16 PM
egnilk66 egnilk66 is offline
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So, what I don't understand is this....Does it only take a DV "Charge" or a DV Conviction to be banned? Because anyone can easily CHARGE something that didn't really ever happen. And, what if the DV Charge ended up in a "disturbing the peace" conviction??
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