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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-20-2008, 9:51 PM
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Default How far must a locked container be from the driver?

I purchased a Titan Vault for traveling to and from the gun range. It is a steel vault, with handle, locks to a steel mount that can be bolted to the floor of the Excursion and has a push button combination to open the vault.

Assume the gun is unloaded and no magazines are touching the gun.

see link http://www.titangunvault.com/

I planned to have it just behind the center consul of an Excursion so I can get it in and out of the truck without having to get into the back seat area. The container is removable, will remain locked in transport to the home/range, and the mount will stay bolted to the floor.

A retired LE said that was illegal and it had to be mounted as far away from the driver as possible. He could not site a section or law and said it was case law that would impact the matter.

Is this correct?
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Last edited by Boxer; 04-20-2008 at 9:54 PM..
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Old 04-20-2008, 9:54 PM
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No mention of distance in PC. You transport it on your lap.
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Old 04-20-2008, 9:56 PM
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Per CHP
Quote:
I will be traveling to California and want to carry my weapon. I currently have a concealed weapon permit. How can I legally transport my weapon while driving through the state?

California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

If you have additional questions, contact the California Department of Justice at 916-227-3703.
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:00 PM
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It seems all retired LE always says its illegal even though they can't tell you where the law is writted. I saw that at the gun show and thought it was a nice vault. But for almost two hundred I had to pass on it.
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:04 PM
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Sadly LE often know very little about the law.
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer View Post
I purchased a Titan Vault for traveling to and from the gun range. It is a steel vault, with handle, locks to a steel mount that can be bolted to the floor of the Excursion and has a push button combination to open the vault.

Assume the gun is unloaded and no magazines are touching the gun.

see link http://www.titangunvault.com/

I planned to have it just behind the center consul of an Excursion so I can get it in and out of the truck without having to get into the back seat area. The container is removable, will remain locked in transport to the home/range, and the mount will stay bolted to the floor.

A retired LE said that was illegal and it had to be mounted as far away from the driver as possible. He could not site a section or law and said it was case law that would impact the matter.

Is this correct?
The only trick is whether someone would conclude it is actually a center console. The PC says "The term "locked container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle."

On the floor behind the front seats, on the back seats, on the front seat all are fine.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

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  #7  
Old 04-20-2008, 10:12 PM
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There is a magazine container that hooks to the (non hinged) edge of this vault. The lid of that container locks under the lid of the Titan vault and springs open when the Titan vault is opened.

Can a loaded magazine be kept in that locked acessories container that is locked via the Titian vault. The additional container is a protoype and is a special order right now. Does this complicate things?

Both items are in open view behind the seat in the center.
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:14 PM
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Might as well just open carry
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:18 PM
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Perhaps I should clarify: Both items are in full view meaning the Titian vaul with the attached magazine carrier, both locked. The pistol and magazine are behind locked steel doors/covers.
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:48 PM
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It can be in your lap.
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  #11  
Old 04-20-2008, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer View Post
Can a loaded magazine be kept in that locked acessories container that is locked via the Titian vault.
Yes, per PC 12031g and "People vs Clark". What you are describing is no crime. Carry on!

Tell that retired 830.1 or other formerly duly appointed peace officer to get his backside registered here. Tell him to post that he is that retired 830.1 or other formerly duly appointed peace officer so we can rip him a new one on the internet!!!! He should stick to golfing!

Also go read PC 12026.1a, 12027 (f), 12025 (f) and all of 12031...

PS I love my titan!
PPS don't go asking about securing your titan to your vehicle at Calccw.org they'll tell you it's then a "utility compartment"
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Last edited by Liberty1; 04-20-2008 at 11:01 PM..
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  #12  
Old 04-20-2008, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty1 View Post
Yes, per PC 12031g and "People vs Clark". What you are describing is no crime. Carry on!

Tell that retired 830.1 or other formerly duly appointed peace officer to get his backside registered here. Tell him to post that he is that retired 830.1 or other formerly duly appointed peace officer so we can rip him a new one on the internet!!!! He should stick to golfing!

Also go read PC 12026.1a, 12027 (f), 12025 (f) and all of 12031...

PS I love my titan!
PPS don't go asking about securing your titan to your vehicle at Calccw.org they'll tell you it's then a "utility compartment"
What exactly is a utility compartment?
Is a utility compartment integral (built-in or attached) to the vehicle?
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  #13  
Old 04-20-2008, 11:14 PM
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You bolt it in and it becomes part of the car. you bolt down a bracket, and click the vault to the bracket and it becomes part of the car. You cable lock it to something substantial, it's not part of the car. It's that I'm against securing your firearm well, it's that I'm more for not getting arrested. Any LEO would see a cable locked vault as a separate item. Bolt it down or click it to a bracket that's bolted and a LEO could easily claim that it's part of the car.

Personally, I kind of like the bracket method... keeps the vault in one specific spot while being removable from the vehicle. No FUD here... just extra safety really. Besides, as long as it's in a locked container and nothing in the cylinder or magwell, the container can be anywhere you want it to be...
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Old 04-20-2008, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSDGuy View Post
You bolt it in and it becomes part of the car. you bolt down a bracket, and click the vault to the bracket and it becomes part of the car.
Please cite an arrest, case law, DOJ opinion, or paid attorney opinion. Absent that I call it Orange County FUD.
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  #15  
Old 04-21-2008, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty1 View Post
Please cite an arrest, case law, DOJ opinion, or paid attorney opinion. Absent that I call it Orange County FUD.
How about you provide the same that supports your argument?

Remember, arrests would be for PC 12025... not for violating 12026.1 or .2. Arrests for violation of 12025 include all the center console, glove box, under the seat...

I do believe I read that info or synthesized that info myself from "How to own a gun in California and stay out of jail". Good book. I've been trying to find my copy of it (2007 version, 2008 is supposed to be basically unchanged) to back up or refute my own memory.
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Old 04-21-2008, 7:21 AM
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Default The Grant Boys Has the Stay Out of Jail in CA. 2008 Book

The Grant Boys usually has the Stay Out of Jail in CA. 2008 book at the check out counter for those of us in SoCal.

http://www.grantboys.com/

1750 Newport Blvd.
Costa Mesa, CA 92627
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  #17  
Old 04-21-2008, 9:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSDGuy View Post
You bolt it in and it becomes part of the car. you bolt down a bracket, and click the vault to the bracket and it becomes part of the car. You cable lock it to something substantial, it's not part of the car. It's that I'm against securing your firearm well, it's that I'm more for not getting arrested. Any LEO would see a cable locked vault as a separate item. Bolt it down or click it to a bracket that's bolted and a LEO could easily claim that it's part of the car.
Oh really? Think FORD would warrantee it then?

Want to go up against me in court and claim a separately purchased combination gun lock box that is not supplied installed or serviced by FORD is 'part of the vehicle?'

Cite case or statute law to back this up, otherwise I call shenanigans.
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  #18  
Old 04-21-2008, 9:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artherd View Post
Oh really? Think FORD would warrantee it then?

Want to go up against me in court and claim a separately purchased combination gun lock box that is not supplied installed or serviced by FORD is 'part of the vehicle?'

Cite case or statute law to back this up, otherwise I call shenanigans.
Slightly off topic .. a friend has a $4000 welder / generator which he welded to the bed of his pickup, saying the vehicle insurance covers it in case of collision if it is "permanently" attached (not to mention making it harder to steal). There might be some similar consideration for bolting a lockbox inside a vehicle, but a law is easier to find that insurance company policy, and more difficult to change on a whim.
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Old 04-21-2008, 11:28 AM
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How about you provide the same that supports your argument?
I would if was possible to prove a negative. Balls in your court.
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False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.
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Old 04-21-2008, 12:54 PM
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Default It must be

Out of arms reach. Thats what the sheriff here says
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Old 04-21-2008, 1:32 PM
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Default What the Sheriff says

Quote:
Originally Posted by New View Post
Out of arms reach. Thats what the sheriff here says
And we all know that what the Sheriff says just absolutely has to be the law, the complete law and nothing but the law.

If only.
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Old 04-21-2008, 1:32 PM
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Out of arms reach. Thats what the sheriff here says
NO, NO, NO!
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Old 04-21-2008, 1:35 PM
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Is there a name and a jurisdiction to go with that title?
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False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.
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Old 04-21-2008, 2:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Liberty1 View Post
Is there a name and a jurisdiction to go with that title?
Buford T. Justice, Texarkana.
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Old 04-21-2008, 2:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artherd View Post
Oh really? Think FORD would warrantee it then?

Want to go up against me in court and claim a separately purchased combination gun lock box that is not supplied installed or serviced by FORD is 'part of the vehicle?'

Cite case or statute law to back this up, otherwise I call shenanigans.
I think the emphasis ought to be
Quote:
a LEO could easily claim that it's part of the car.
Whether it has already occurred or that such a claim is quite likely to be wrong is less interesting. I'd call it 'constructive paranoia' or 'very conservative analysis of an amount of risk I wish to accept' or perhaps 'an extremely low opinion of the PC knowledge of an average LEO in California when confronted with a novelty'.

Honestly, I don't think there ought to be any problem at all with the Titan installed as described, it's just that we're back to the "58 elected DAs problem" again.
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


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  #26  
Old 04-21-2008, 3:41 PM
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Originally Posted by New View Post
Out of arms reach. Thats what the sheriff here says
New, as others here have stated, sadly, many (if not most) LEO do not know the law very well. If you want to know the law, my carry and transport flyer is a good place to start.
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Old 04-21-2008, 3:52 PM
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Originally Posted by eta34 View Post
NO, NO, NO!
YES YES YES YES.

12026.1 (1)
The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle; other than the utility or glove compartment.

If you do not have a glove compartment, like an RV, it has to be out of arms reach. Call you local LEO office, they will most likely tell you to call your sheriff, and they will tell you, to transport it locked, ammo separate and OUT OF ARMS REACH.
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Old 04-21-2008, 3:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New View Post
YES YES YES YES.

12026.1 (1)
The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle; other than the utility or glove compartment.

If you do not have a glove compartment, like an RV, it has to be out of arms reach. Call you local LEO office, they will most likely tell you to call your sheriff, and they will tell you, to transport it locked, ammo separate and OUT OF ARMS REACH.
Are you incapable of reading a statute?

It says that, for the exception to 12025 to apply, the firearm must be in the locked trunk or a locked container in the vehicle, and that said locked containers do not include the utility or glove compartment. It says nothing about within an arms reach. It also says that glove compartments ARE NOT sufficient. Please stop spreading FUD.
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Last edited by mymonkeyman; 04-21-2008 at 4:02 PM..
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Old 04-21-2008, 4:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New View Post
YES YES YES YES.

12026.1 (1)
The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle; other than the utility or glove compartment.

If you do not have a glove compartment, like an RV, it has to be out of arms reach. Call you local LEO office, they will most likely tell you to call your sheriff, and they will tell you, to transport it locked, ammo separate and OUT OF ARMS REACH.
So, you quoted the correct Penal Code. Where in it do you see "out of arm's reach"?

I submit that you will not find it there. And if it isn't in the PC, it isn't required, no matter how emphatically your local Sheriff may wish it so.
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- Thomas Sowell
I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


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  #30  
Old 04-21-2008, 4:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New View Post
YES YES YES YES.

12026.1 (1)
The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle; other than the utility or glove compartment.

If you do not have a glove compartment, like an RV, it has to be out of arms reach. Call you local LEO office, they will most likely tell you to call your sheriff, and they will tell you, to transport it locked, ammo separate and OUT OF ARMS REACH.
New, you partially quoted the 12026.1 exemption, and then you added a sentance that does not exist. Where are you getting this misinformation?

Please go here: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html, and check "Penal Code", and search for 12026.1, then read.

Here's the full text of 12026.1:

Quote:
12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted
classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.
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  #31  
Old 04-21-2008, 4:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New View Post
YES YES YES YES.

12026.1 (1)
The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle; other than the utility or glove compartment.

If you do not have a glove compartment, like an RV, it has to be out of arms reach. Call you local LEO office, they will most likely tell you to call your sheriff, and they will tell you, to transport it locked, ammo separate and OUT OF ARMS REACH.
And they will also tell you stuff like, "You can't carry a firearm without a License to carry concealed." or "It is illegal to open carry."

The LEO is not the best source for legal information. A lot of them will tell you whatever they feel like telling you as long as it makes their job easier. Doesn't matter if it is innacurate information or not.

Read the Penal Code for yourself. Don't believe anything that anybody puts out without first VERIFYING that it actually says it in the Penal Code.

The AG booklet, the CHP booklet, the LAPD booklet, any other LEO booklet will always tell you how to stay 30 miles this side of legal. They will not tell you where the line actually is that devides legal/illegal. You have to do some homework and find that line for yourself.

Here are a couple of resources that will help guide you in doing you own research and study of the ACTUAL PENAL CODES, not somebody's opinion on what they heard their CCW instructor's cousin's best friend's ex-wife's brother-in-law enforcement say.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/8457.html
http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf
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Old 04-21-2008, 4:16 PM
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Default That sure cleared things up!

Humm...aren't there any LEOs or gun attorneys out there to chime in? Well maybe not the attornies.

In any case it sounds like is it OK to place just behind the center consul within arms reach even if others are saying no, there is no law saying no.

After this thread who knows...
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Old 04-21-2008, 4:19 PM
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Humm...aren't there any LEOs or gun attorneys out there to chime in? Well maybe not the attornies.

In any case it sounds like is it OK to place just behind the center consul within arms reach even if others are saying no, there is no law saying no.

After this thread who knows...
Liberty1 has already chimed in a couple of times.
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Old 04-21-2008, 4:32 PM
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Humm...aren't there any LEOs or gun attorneys out there to chime in? Well maybe not the attornies.

In any case it sounds like is it OK to place just behind the center consul within arms reach even if others are saying no, there is no law saying no.

After this thread who knows...
Boxer, more often than not, when a LEO chimes in, he's going to tell you what he thinks you should do, what makes him comfortable, not what is the law. And many well-informed people have already chimed in, and have further stated that you can read the PC yourself if you don't believe them. At what point does reason overpower fear? These thread really drive me crazy because they come up at least once a week, and no matter what anyone says, FUD always wins.
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Old 04-21-2008, 5:21 PM
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If you have your firearm in a locked container, and the ammunition is separate, and you do not have a trunk, then it must be NOT IN ARMS REACH. Like I said, call your Sheriff.

FUD
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Old 04-21-2008, 5:23 PM
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If you have your firearm in a locked container, and the ammunition is separate, and you do not have a trunk, then it must be NOT IN ARMS REACH. Like I said, call your Sheriff.

FUD
Ah, New? I think you may be on the way to Former. Repeating what has been refuted is not a successful way to advance a conversation.
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Old 04-21-2008, 5:26 PM
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Got it! Thanks for your help all my fellow forum members.
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Old 04-21-2008, 5:28 PM
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Originally Posted by New View Post
If you have your firearm in a locked container, and the ammunition is separate, and you do not have a trunk, then it must be NOT IN ARMS REACH. Like I said, call your Sheriff.

FUD
Like my local Sheriff said, if you are marrying a virgin you have to let him have sex with her before you do. Like I said, call your Sheriff. Why would he lie?
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Old 04-21-2008, 5:37 PM
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If you have your firearm in a locked container, and the ammunition is separate, and you do not have a trunk, then it must be NOT IN ARMS REACH. Like I said, call your Sheriff.

FUD
Again, where is that coming from?

You do know what FUD means, right?

There is nothing, nada, zip about the distance an unloaded and locked firearm must be from people inside the vehicle.

There is also nothing in PC against having ammunition in the same locked container. It is in fact legal to keep loaded magazines inside your locked gun case with your handgun. Now, quite a few LEO will tell you "a loaded magazine is a loaded weapon!", and they'd be right... but only if you're a known criminal or gang member.

Go read the laws for yourself, and don't believe everything the sheriff says. Get pulled over, and sheriff will say "I can search your car whether you give me permission or not... so can I search your car?"

That's alright.. cause they're never incorrect or lie.

ROFL, monkeyman. Ius primae noctis, eh?
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Old 04-21-2008, 6:08 PM
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If you have your firearm in a locked container, and the ammunition is separate, and you do not have a trunk, then it must be NOT IN ARMS REACH. Like I said, call your Sheriff.

FUD
But if your firearm is NOT in a locked container, and the ammunition is NOT separate, and you DO have a trunk, then YOU MUST BE IN THE TRUNK!

This guy is seriously confused... Or he's just trolling us, quite successfully.
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