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  #1  
Old 08-20-2014, 1:23 PM
Smirnoff Smirnoff is offline
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Default Who are 1-4x scopes meant for?

I recently started target shooting with a 1-6x rifle scope. When I place a target out at 100 meters, I could not see the previous hole left in the paper by my 5.45x39 bullet when taking the next shot. I was surprised I would still need a spotting scope. The crosshatch even covered over the target. I never used 3x, 4x, 5x magnification, and I was wondering who does? There must be a specific type of sport shooting competition this is meant for. And 1-4x? My goodness, I can't see how it is much better than iron sights.
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Old 08-20-2014, 1:26 PM
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Haven't done much bench rest I take it. 9 power is about the minumum magnification where you can see prior holes in plain paper targets. 1-4 power scopes have wide fields of vision for quick target acquisition.
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Old 08-20-2014, 1:29 PM
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1-4x came out before 1-6x, and is cheaper to make. I'd opine thatthey are not for precision use but are more for fast "close enough" shooting where you only need to get a shot on target, not to have a half-moa group.

it would be perfect for 3-gun type comp or where you are shooting at different ranges, from CQB distance to 200 yards, I often used my 1-6x scope set at between 2-3x when shooting at 5-50 yards, wide enough to be fast on target, but dialed in enough to be able to center the target.
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Old 08-20-2014, 1:42 PM
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Been running 1-4 power scopes on my AR for a while now. Basic idea is you can dial the scope back to it's lowest setting for "up close" shots and use it somewhat like a red dot. Then crank it up to it's max for little more precision at longer ranges. I will admit I've found it to be a little better idea in theory than in actual practice but there still is enough merit to the idea that I've continued running the low power variable optics.

But you are correct, OP, they're not the greatest for bench shooting. I usually have to switch to the shoot n see targets when I shoot my AR of the bench to be able to tell where my rounds are hitting, or else use a spotting scope.
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Old 08-20-2014, 2:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smirnoff View Post
I recently started target shooting with a 1-6x rifle scope. When I place a target out at 100 meters, I could not see the previous hole left in the paper by my 5.45x39 bullet when taking the next shot. I was surprised I would still need a spotting scope. The crosshatch even covered over the target. I never used 3x, 4x, 5x magnification, and I was wondering who does? There must be a specific type of sport shooting competition this is meant for. And 1-4x? My goodness, I can't see how it is much better than iron sights.
4x is 4x better than irons. As people have mentioned, they aren't made for bench shooting. You can see a torso sized target better with 4x than you can with no magnification, they aren't meant for trying to shoot tiny groups(some of them don't even come with fine enough adjustments for it).

3 gun, hunting, possibly combat(the military issues 4x acogs), are what you'd want a lower magnification optic for.

A 1-4x scope is also typically cheaper and smaller than say... an elcan that switches between exactly 1x and 4x(no adjustment between the minimum and max magnification due to how they're made).

Some optics are suited better for some tasks than others. Sounds like you're using an optic that isn't suited for your use.
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Old 08-20-2014, 2:15 PM
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From the mil side, the low-power variable scope was motivated by experience in the Oct 3rd, 1993 TF Ranger mission in Somalia. Back then the only optics in use on carbines were Aimpoint 1000s or ACOGs, both with distinct advantages. AARs determined that many of the folks in that fight found that they needed the advantage of an RDS like the Aimpoint because of the close-quarters nature of the street fight, but also some level of magnification for positive target identification as their lanes will littered with threats and non-combatants. Having a marriage of the two would allow them to rapidly engage at close range while also being able to engage accurately at distance and ID targets further out.

Not much progress was made in that regard until the problem popped up again in 2003 with the invasion of Iraq. By 2004, the guys at the tip of the spear approached a few different optics manufacturers asking for this combo-scope, most failed to deliver to spec except S&B - and the Short Dot was born. Since then, low-power variable optics with an RDS capability (some better than others) are being made be several vendors. The current state of the art is in the 1-8x range with a daytime visible dot in the second focal plane and a reticle in the first.
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Last edited by brando; 08-20-2014 at 2:17 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 08-20-2014, 2:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brando View Post
From the mil side, the low-power variable scope was motivated by experience in the Oct 3rd, 1993 TF Ranger mission in Somalia. Back then the only optics in use on carbines were Aimpoint 1000s or ACOGs, both with distinct advantages. AARs determined that many of the folks in that fight found that they needed the advantage of an RDS like the Aimpoint because of the close-quarters nature of the street fight, but also some level of magnification for positive target identification as their lanes will littered with threats and non-combatants. Having a marriage of the two would allow them to rapidly engage at close range while also being able to engage accurately at distance and ID targets further out.

Not much progress was made in that regard until the problem popped up again in 2003 with the invasion of Iraq. By 2004, the guys at the tip of the spear approached a few different optics manufacturers asking for this combo-scope, most failed to deliver to spec except S&B - and the Short Dot was born. Since then, low-power variable optics with an RDS capability (some better than others) are being made be several vendors. The current state of the art is in the 1-8x range with a daytime visible dot in the second focal plane and a reticle in the first.
Already old news, as 1-10x dual focal plane scopes are available(and really freakin expensive).
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Old 08-20-2014, 3:13 PM
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Well USO and Leupold were both to the market with advanced 1-8x before S&B, which is kind of ironic, but I wouldn't consider IORs 1-10x entry "state of the art." If anything, they're once again trying to "out feature" competitors, which is understandable, but historically with mixed results.
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  #9  
Old 08-20-2014, 3:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smirnoff View Post
I recently started target shooting with a 1-6x rifle scope. When I place a target out at 100 meters, I could not see the previous hole left in the paper by my 5.45x39 bullet when taking the next shot. I was surprised I would still need a spotting scope. The crosshatch even covered over the target. I never used 3x, 4x, 5x magnification, and I was wondering who does? There must be a specific type of sport shooting competition this is meant for. And 1-4x? My goodness, I can't see how it is much better than iron sights.
Wow I am not sure why you couldn't see well? What brand of scope? 4x is not that powerful and you wont be able to see your shots, but it is very helpful especially at 100yards or 100meters. At least you can see your target clearer,with irons and red dots out at 100yards you will not be able to see your shots or try to shoot for groups.

With the following scopes I can see my shots at 100yards; 1-6x Primary arms, 2-7x Hi Lux, 3-9x Nikon Rimfire scope. I do use splatter targets that high light the shot , so that does help, not going to lie. I still check my shots with a spotting scope from time to time.

I would stick with the 4x as its really good for engaging short to mid range targets. If your looking to get tight groups etc, then you need more magnification. Your rifle of choice and ammo also has a lot to do with shooting groups.

Last edited by safety-1st; 08-20-2014 at 3:28 PM..
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  #10  
Old 08-20-2014, 3:37 PM
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Using splatter targets has no relation to shooting at paper like I said. You are comparing apples and oranges nother newbie heard from.
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brando View Post
From the mil side, the low-power variable scope was motivated by experience in the Oct 3rd, 1993 TF Ranger mission in Somalia. Back then the only optics in use on carbines were Aimpoint 1000s or ACOGs, both with distinct advantages. AARs determined that many of the folks in that fight found that they needed the advantage of an RDS like the Aimpoint because of the close-quarters nature of the street fight, but also some level of magnification for positive target identification as their lanes will littered with threats and non-combatants. Having a marriage of the two would allow them to rapidly engage at close range while also being able to engage accurately at distance and ID targets further out.

Not much progress was made in that regard until the problem popped up again in 2003 with the invasion of Iraq. By 2004, the guys at the tip of the spear approached a few different optics manufacturers asking for this combo-scope, most failed to deliver to spec except S&B - and the Short Dot was born. Since then, low-power variable optics with an RDS capability (some better than others) are being made be several vendors. The current state of the art is in the 1-8x range with a daytime visible dot in the second focal plane and a reticle in the first.
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Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
Already old news, as 1-10x dual focal plane scopes are available(and really freakin expensive).
This is interesting. I have been doing some reading on Calguns as well as AR15.com for the past few months. I see very little discussion about 1-8x or 1-10x scopes on a day-to-day basis. This seems strange. Maybe because of the cost? Or could it be that in civilian useages, having a 1-4x and then a separate 4-14x or some other high magnification scope makes more sense?
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Old 08-21-2014, 7:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smirnoff View Post
This is interesting. I have been doing some reading on Calguns as well as AR15.com for the past few months. I see very little discussion about 1-8x or 1-10x scopes on a day-to-day basis. This seems strange. Maybe because of the cost? Or could it be that in civilian useages, having a 1-4x and then a separate 4-14x or some other high magnification scope makes more sense?
It's because not many people are dropping $2,000-$3,000 for scopes.

edit: Not many people are willing to drop that sort of cash on a low magnification scope for an AR that isn't a precision rifle. A lot of people can barely swallow the idea of spending $1000 on a 4-14 or 6-24 magnification scope for a bolt action rifle they expect to use at 1500 yards shooting quarter MOA groups. I'd say $300-$800 is what most people seem willing to spend on lower magnification optics, and that seems to be the case with the fairly large amounts of discussion you can find on 1-4 optics(and other stuff like 1.5 to whatever) in that price range. If the reputable manufacturers(sorry nikko stirling) could make sub $800 1-8 and 1-10 DFP scopes that would allow people to transition between almost a no magnification red dot, and something they can use at distance, people would be all over it.

Last edited by Merc1138; 08-21-2014 at 7:58 AM..
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  #13  
Old 08-21-2014, 7:47 AM
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If you want to see discussion about high end optics, you want to go to snipershide.com
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Old 08-21-2014, 7:51 AM
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You do realize WWII Sniper Scopes where 2 to 2.75X right?
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Old 08-21-2014, 7:55 AM
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Kind of puts it in perspective
http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/mi...2-snipers.html
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Old 08-21-2014, 8:34 AM
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You do realize WWII Sniper Scopes where 2 to 2.75X right?
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Originally Posted by ElvenSoul View Post
In the interview you posted a link to, they're talking about primarily 4x and 6x, fixed magnification scopes. Not 2 and 2.75. I seriously doubt that those guys would have turned their noses up at a high quality, modern, 4-14x scope. But there is a massive difference between optics available in the 1940's, and 2014. Everything from how reticles were made, erector assemblies, even mounting options have improved.

Last edited by Merc1138; 08-21-2014 at 8:36 AM..
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:30 AM
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Those who can't afford a 1-6+ or simply don't want to spend the money for one. I keep mine on a HD rifle, gives me an almost 1 magnification for most CQ applications, and a bit of magnification if I need it.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:40 AM
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me.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:24 AM
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And me.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:34 AM
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And me

It does the job from 15-200 yards hitting 10" or larger steel dongs.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:48 AM
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Back in 2007, some in my Cav troop were issued these 1-4x optics. It allowed us to see out a little farther than the guys running EOTechs and CompM4s, but (supposedly) gave us the freedom to use it as a CQB optic as well.

Acquring and shifting targets at 4x is perfect, especially with a 5.56mm carbine or rifle, where much more magnification is wasted. We were also not that interested in seeing the PoI, just the targets.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smirnoff View Post
I recently started target shooting with a 1-6x rifle scope. When I place a target out at 100 meters, I could not see the previous hole left in the paper by my 5.45x39 bullet when taking the next shot. I was surprised I would still need a spotting scope. The crosshatch even covered over the target. I never used 3x, 4x, 5x magnification, and I was wondering who does? There must be a specific type of sport shooting competition this is meant for. And 1-4x? My goodness, I can't see how it is much better than iron sights.
You see a lot of 1-4x because everyone and his uncle makes a cheap optic with a 4:1 zoom ratio and folks don't want to pony the money to put a proper scope on their Delton AR-15s nor learn how to use iron sites.

Higher zoom ratios, especially in compact optics cost quite a bit more to produce.
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:07 PM
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And me

It does the job from 15-200 yards hitting 10" or larger steel dongs.
This isn't OT, and no one needs to know how large the dongs in FP's basement are.
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:26 PM
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1-4x scopes are compact enough for AR and sufficient for distances I can hit the target realistically being not a sniper. Switching between 4x and a red dot with minimum magnification is a nice feature too. Higher magnification adds extra weight to the rifle. Cost is part of consideration too. I am not sure if putting optics meant for accuracy and distances not achievable by an average shooter is worth the money for a person with no sniper skills. I think such practices are called "over magnification". I started from 3-16x then moved to 1-4x and found it more convenient for mid range distances.
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Old 08-21-2014, 1:01 PM
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I use a 3x and a 4x, as long as i'm ringing steel, im happy.....Not all of us are into precision shooting...
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Old 08-21-2014, 1:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackRydden224 View Post
And me

It does the job from 15-200 yards hitting 10" or larger steel dongs.
Oh my! Never seen that magnified at 4x!
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Old 08-21-2014, 1:11 PM
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Oh my! Never seen that magnified at 4x!
at >10", it doesnt need much magnification...1x will suffice...
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Old 08-21-2014, 1:15 PM
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People that like to shoot critters that can move like low power.

If you can shoot 400 yards with iron sights, then the 1-6 scopes allow you to have the sight and target in the same focus plane.




Target shooters and bad shooters like extra magnification for different reasons.

Target shooters want that 1 1/2" group at 400 yards.

Bad shooters buy high power scopes thinking that extra magnification, not shooting technique is the problem.
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Old 08-21-2014, 1:16 PM
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1-4 X for shooting cherry thieving birds with a crossman pellet rifle.
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Old 08-21-2014, 2:24 PM
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edgerly779, i was giving the user scenarios and options of what I use. Perhaps its his choice if he wants to pick up splatter targets to see better. Splatter targets are made for a reason. Is there any reason to call anyone a newbie because they dont use paper? Does your aim get any better shooting paper? Does it make you feel any tougher to shoot paper?
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Old 08-22-2014, 8:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElvenSoul View Post
You do realize WWII Sniper Scopes where 2 to 2.75X right?
Oh, so that's why the Germans lost.
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Old 08-24-2014, 6:13 PM
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I just came from the range. The most crowed was 50yrd with some staying in line waiting for the next available spot. 100yrd was not crowed at all with plenty of available spots. I was one of only few there practicing off-hand shooting with my 1-4x Hi-Lux. The crowd at the 50yrd range was practicing sharpshooting using stands, bipods and high magnification scopes. It did not look like they all were working on zeroing their scopes. No judging, just an observation.
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Old 08-24-2014, 7:39 PM
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I use a 1-4X variable on my 458 Win Mag for hunting dangerous game. On a combination hunt with short range dangerous game and other type of game at medium ranges out to 200 yards or so they work great.

A lot of people hunt with them a large caliber rifles because they're fast. They don't require your eyes to switch focus between the target and the front sight, which older people find harder to do.
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Old 08-26-2014, 9:06 PM
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Default Who are 1-4x scopes meant for?

Running a SB Short Dot CQB on one of my ARs, I've wanted to go up on mag, but don't believe it's needed as the weight, cost start to march upward as well. Looked through a 1-6 VCOG and was mildly impressed, might have got one if I didn't already have the SB.

Coming from the mil side as well, not a bench shooter.
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Old 08-26-2014, 9:16 PM
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I have a swfa 1-4 hd on my DDM4 and I can see my holes @100 yards no problem. Shooting against a buddy with his Aimpoint T1 at 8" steel plates @300 yards was not even close. I smoked him.

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Old 08-26-2014, 10:26 PM
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I'm running 4x scopes of a few of my small and light hunting rifles.
They are half the size and weight as some the full sized 3x9 / 2.5x10 40/50mm bench scopes.
Just match caliber for distance desired. Both of my 4x scopes sit on what I call
100-150yd rifles. 357Max and 35Rem.
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Old 08-28-2014, 6:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElvenSoul View Post
You do realize WWII Sniper Scopes where 2 to 2.75X right?
Some even used irons on a Nagant.

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Häyhä was credited with 505 confirmed kills of Soviet soldiers. ... All of Häyhä's kills were accomplished in fewer than 100 days – an average of just over five kills per day – at a time of year with very few daylight hours.

Häyhä used a Finnish militia variant of the Russian-made Mosin-Nagant rifle, the White Guard M/28 early variant "Pystykorva" (literally Spitz, due to the front sight's resemblance to the head of a spitz-type dog) chambered in 7.62x54R, the Finnish Mosin-Nagant cartridge, because it suited his small frame (1.6 m (5 ft 3 in)). He preferred to use iron sights rather than telescopic sights to present a smaller target for the enemy (a sniper must raise his head higher when using a telescopic sight), to increase accuracy (a telescopic sight's glass can fog up easily in cold weather), and to aid in concealment (sunlight glare in telescopic sight lenses can reveal a sniper's position).

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Häyhä
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I am not a lawyer and the above is not legal adivse.

Last edited by CenCalHobbist; 08-31-2014 at 5:25 PM..
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  #38  
Old 08-29-2014, 10:08 AM
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ExtremeX ExtremeX is offline
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Originally Posted by rickster1269 View Post
I have a swfa 1-4 hd on my DDM4 and I can see my holes @100 yards no problem.
The optical quality on that scope is well above average so i'm not surprised.

What scope are you using OP?
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