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  #1  
Old 04-10-2008, 4:23 PM
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Default Milldot Master

I have been practicing with my milldot master slide card but does anyone know where I can get my ballistics on the amunition I use in my 308 socom?
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Old 04-10-2008, 4:37 PM
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I went to federal ammo and found the info except that it only caculates up to 500 yards for the 175 grain matchking bthp and the 150 grain fmj.
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Old 04-10-2008, 4:40 PM
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Rick,

how fast is your 175SMK goin? I can run you a drop chart real quick with exbal.
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Old 04-10-2008, 5:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vu 308 View Post
Rick,

how fast is your 175SMK goin? I can run you a drop chart real quick with exbal.
velocity per sec. energy in foot lbs.
1803 at 500 yards, 1264 energy foot lbs
1949 at 400, 1476 energy foot lbs
2101 at 300, 1717 energy foot lbs
2262 at 200, 1987 energy foo lbs
2427 at 100, 2290 energy foot lbs
2600 at muzzle, 2627 energy foot lbs
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Old 04-10-2008, 6:41 PM
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You can use this too.
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Old 04-10-2008, 6:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricknadine1111 View Post
velocity per sec. energy in foot lbs.
1803 at 500 yards, 1264 energy foot lbs
1949 at 400, 1476 energy foot lbs
2101 at 300, 1717 energy foot lbs
2262 at 200, 1987 energy foo lbs
2427 at 100, 2290 energy foot lbs
2600 at muzzle, 2627 energy foot lbs
Thats probably out of a fullsize rifle, not a socom. It will be quite a bit slower out of that short barrel.
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Old 04-10-2008, 7:07 PM
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Do you work at Oak Tree by any chance?
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Old 04-10-2008, 8:04 PM
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SOCOM will probably get 2500FPS tops
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Old 04-10-2008, 8:07 PM
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(yd) MOA MOA MOA (in) (in)
100 0.00 0.75 2.00 0.0 -0.8
150 1.00 1.00 2.25 -1.6 -1.7
200 2.25 1.50 2.25 -4.9 -3.1
250 3.75 2.00 2.25 -10.1 -5.0
300 5.50 2.25 2.25 -17.2 -7.3
350 7.25 2.75 2.25 -26.5 -10.1
400 9.00 3.25 2.25 -38.1 -13.4
450 11.00 3.75 2.50 -52.2 -17.3
500 13.25 4.25 2.50 -69.0 -21.7
550 15.50 4.75 2.50 -88.7 -26.8
600 17.75 5.25 2.50 -111.6 -32.5
650 20.25 5.75 2.50 -138.0 -38.8
700 23.00 6.25 2.75 -168.0 -45.9
750 25.75 6.75 2.75 -202.1 -53.7
800 28.75 7.50 2.75 -240.5 -62.2
850 31.75 8.00 2.75 -283.7 -71.5
900 35.25 8.75 3.00 -331.9 -81.5
950 38.75 9.25 3.00 -385.6 -92.2
1000 42.50 10.00 3.00 -445.2 -103.7
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:26 PM
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thanks
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rksimple View Post
Thats probably out of a fullsize rifle, not a socom. It will be quite a bit slower out of that short barrel.
Do you have a good load that duplicates 175 FGMM that I can run through Quickload?

If I go with 43gr of RL15 at 2.800 OAL, QL predicts 2617 from a 24" barrel.
Chopping that barrel back to 16" for the Socom and keeping the same load, it predicts 2382.

In that case, here is a Quicktarget pass:
Code:
 Tabular trajectory data at Non-Std. Atmosphere
 Gunsite altitude : 1500 ft.
 Air density      : 0.07019 lb./ft³
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Gun / Ammunition : .308 Win.
 Bullet           : .308, 175, Sierra HPBT MatchK 2275
 Bullet weight    : 175 grains or 11.34 Grams
 Muzzle velocity  : 2382 fps
 Crosswind speed  : 10 Mph 
 Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1): 
 C1=0.496@V>2800 fps;
 C2=0.487@V>1800 fps;
 C3=0.477@V>0 fps;


 Optimum trajectory information : 
 Optimum sight-in range (X) = 183 Yds. 
 with max. ordinate above LOS at range (M)= 108 Yds.
 and max. point blank range (P)= 213 Yds.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Sight-in clicks, 1 click = 0.665 cm/100 yd. or 0.262 in/100 yd.
 Height of sight above bore axis = 5.0 cm or 1.969 inch
 Gun is zeroed-in at 100 yds,
 by sighting-in at level firing
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Range  Velo Time of  Energy   Path    Deflection    Total  Sight correction  Target
        city  flight            to    at crosswind    drop   for setting new   lead
                                LOS    of 10.0 Mph             zero range     33 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
·Yards   fps     s    ft.lbs.   in.    in.     MOA     in.   Clicks     MOA     yds ·
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|    0  2382  0.0000   2204    -2.0    0.0   -----     0.0   ------    -----    0.00
|   50  2302  0.0643   2060    -0.1    0.2    0.45     0.8     +1.2    +0.30    0.70
M   80  2255  0.1040   1977    +0.2    0.6    0.68     2.1     -0.7    -0.17    1.14
X  100  2224  0.1309   1923     0.0    0.9    0.84     3.2      0.0     0.00    1.43
|  150  2148  0.1997   1792    -1.6    1.9    1.20     7.4     +4.1    +1.02    2.18
P  158  2136  0.2109   1772    -2.0    2.1    1.26     8.3     +4.9    +1.22    2.31
|  200  2073  0.2704   1669    -5.0    3.3    1.56    13.5     +9.6    +2.41    2.96
|  250  1999  0.3429   1552   -10.3    4.9    1.88    21.4    +15.9    +3.97    3.75
|  300  1926  0.4188   1442   -17.9    7.2    2.30    31.6    +22.8    +5.71    4.58
|  350  1856  0.4986   1339   -27.9   10.2    2.77    44.2    +30.6    +7.64    5.45
|  400  1787  0.5820   1241   -40.6   13.8    3.28    59.5    +38.9    +9.72    6.36
|  450  1720  0.6686   1150   -56.1   17.9    3.80    77.6    +47.7   +11.92    7.31
|  500  1655  0.7582   1064   -74.5   22.6    4.32    98.6    +57.0   +14.25    8.29
|  550  1591  0.8506    984   -95.9   27.8    4.82   122.6    +66.7   +16.67    9.30
|  600  1530  0.9456    909  -120.4   33.4    5.32   149.8    +76.7   +19.18   10.34
|  650  1470  1.0448    840  -148.6   39.8    5.85   180.6    +87.4   +21.86   11.43
|  700  1415  1.1491    778  -181.4   47.1    6.42   216.0    +99.1   +24.76   12.57
|  750  1363  1.2577    721  -218.7   55.1    7.02   255.9   +111.4   +27.86   13.75
|  800  1313  1.3699    670  -260.5   63.8    7.61   300.3   +124.5   +31.12   14.98
|  850  1266  1.4858    623  -307.2   73.1    8.21   349.7   +138.1   +34.54   16.25
|  900  1224  1.6064    582  -359.7   83.2    8.83   404.8   +152.8   +38.19   17.57
|  950  1185  1.7310    545  -418.2   94.1    9.46   465.9   +168.2   +42.06   18.93
| 1000  1150  1.8595    514  -482.9  105.6   10.08   533.2   +184.5   +46.13   20.34
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M = Peak vs. L.O.S, X = Set Zero, P = Max. Point Blank Range
Elevation above Angle of Site (0.0 deg.)  = 0.0828 deg.
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 04-10-2008 at 10:49 PM..
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Old 04-10-2008, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricknadine1111 View Post
thanks
27.77 is the formula for estimating range in yards

example

target size 18" covering 2 mill dots

18x27.77=499.86 / 2 mil = 249.93 yards

I hope this makes sense.
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Old 04-11-2008, 6:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1lostinspace View Post
27.77 is the formula for estimating range in yards

example

target size 18" covering 2 mill dots

18x27.77=499.86 / 2 mil = 249.93 yards

I hope this makes sense.
Just so that people know how you arrived at that magic number:

Range in Yards = Target in inches / 36 X 1000 / Number of MILS
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Old 04-11-2008, 8:40 AM
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you guys make it so difficult. easiest and most accurate way is a laser range finder.
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Old 04-11-2008, 8:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PistolPete75 View Post
you guys make it so difficult. easiest and most accurate way is a laser range finder.
and when the battery goes dead . . .

its so easy guys just remember - size of target * 27.77 / mils = distance in yards - so easy a caveman can do it
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Old 04-11-2008, 8:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PistolPete75 View Post
you guys make it so difficult. easiest and most accurate way is a laser range finder.
Ditto. When not milling square, reflective targets, its quite inaccurate at extended distances. Heck, just a difference of a few inches in target size can cause enough of a discrepancy to miss.
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Old 04-11-2008, 9:01 AM
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Just so that people know how you arrived at that magic number:

Range in Yards = Target in inches / 36 X 1000 / Number of MILS
Well a fellow member on Sniper Hide is currently active in the sandbox and this is the number he was trained on. It allows for fast calculation.
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Old 04-11-2008, 9:03 AM
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and when the battery goes dead . . .

its so easy guys just remember - size of target * 27.77 / mils = distance in yards - so easy a caveman can do it
In the real world its just not as accurate. As part of some sniper classes, they have you go out and measure common things in the town. Curbs, stop signs, doors, etc...things you would think are very standard. They're not. Not at all. Even the 8541's we had instructing us said that a LRF is the way to go and they had numerous personally owned LRFs in the sandbox.

Of course, thats not to say milling is a skill that you don't need to worry about. It'll at least get you close enough to maybe see some splash and put the next one where it needs to be.
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Old 04-11-2008, 9:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf View Post
and when the battery goes dead . . .

its so easy guys just remember - size of target * 27.77 / mils = distance in yards - so easy a caveman can do it
Yup.. I always keep my milling table with me just in case. It's just a piece of paper so why not. It's nice to know the formulas too if you have time to make the calculations and are inclined to do it.

I default to a laser range finder though.
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Old 04-11-2008, 9:37 AM
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and when the battery goes dead . . .

its so easy guys just remember - size of target * 27.77 / mils = distance in yards - so easy a caveman can do it
Try those bad boys in direct sun light as well...they suck.

Even your bad a55 leica will fail.

Anything short of a Vector will fail in snow or really bright light. Last trip out to the desert we had 5 of them go south. Give us one good reading early in the AM but when the sun was high noon...good luck


All you MIL freaks need to come to the dark side. MOA!!!!!

Size of target / by MOA X a 100....

Measuring in smaller incriments will give you better accuracy. =)
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Old 04-11-2008, 9:40 AM
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Try those bad boys in direct sun light as well...they suck.

Even your bad a55 leica will fail.

Anything short of a Vector will fail in snow or really bright light. Last trip out to the desert we had 5 of them go south. Give us one good reading early in the AM but when the sun was high noon...good luck

BTDT. Bright setting and rising sun and snow. My Leica Geovids were perfect out to the 900 yards we had targets set up. In fact, I think we may still have some snow up in the mountains a few minutes away. Would you be convinced with some pictures?
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Old 04-11-2008, 9:42 AM
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BTDT. Bright setting and rising sun and snow. My Leica Geovids were perfect out to the 900 yards we had targets set up. In fact, I think we may still have some snow up in the mountains a few minutes away. Would you be convinced with some pictures?
My wallet hurts when ever I think of those.
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Old 04-11-2008, 9:43 AM
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My wallet hurts when ever I think of those.
Luckily they were a gift or I'd never have them!
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Old 04-11-2008, 10:03 AM
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Yes I actually broke down and bought a Leica 1200 S - why - - - becuase I got tired of lugging Savannah all around at APS to get distances for COFs since the POS Bushnell 400 wouldn't give me much over 250 yards. As a side note I understand LRFs are the way to go and I don't knock 'em but milling doesn't worry about light conditions, battery life, etc. Practice does make perfect, believe me I know. As anyone who's attended my matches can attest my milled yardages are normally pretty close (no more than 15 or so yards) off what someone using a LRF ranges and thats with a std Army mildot. Of course I know the size of the targets too.
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Old 04-11-2008, 10:23 AM
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BTDT. Bright setting and rising sun and snow. My Leica Geovids were perfect out to the 900 yards we had targets set up. In fact, I think we may still have some snow up in the mountains a few minutes away. Would you be convinced with some pictures?

Pictures don't do much for me to be honest. Not saying your 1700.00 piece of glass won't work but I've seen them fail also. A buddy of mine has Geovids and we had them fail in extreme cold as well..wouldnt even range a target 100yards out. After he left them in the car for a while to warm them back up they were fine.

What size target were you ranging with those? We were hitting 12" pieces of steel.
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Old 04-11-2008, 10:34 AM
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Pictures don't do much for me to be honest. Not saying your 1700.00 piece of glass won't work but I've seen them fail also. A buddy of mine has Geovids and we had them fail in extreme cold as well..wouldnt even range a target 100yards out. After he left them in the car for a while to warm them back up they were fine.

What size target were you ranging with those? We were hitting 12" pieces of steel.
At 900 was my 2/3 size IPSC steel. Doesn't matter too much as it will range dirt on the side of a hill.

I've used the Leicas for a couple years now. I only recently got my own pair, but had used my FIL's set before that. We've used them hunting in all conditions (20 and under is cold up here, extreme cold is single digits), got 'em rained on, dropped 'em, ranged in bright sun to dark, snow, light fog, etc. They just flat work. I was lasing everything I could trying his out and he still hasn't had to replace the battery. They've proven themselves for me. Thats not saying they won't fail, but hey, my S&B could fail too. The likelyhood of either failing is quite slim, however. I just need an extra battery.
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Old 04-11-2008, 11:20 AM
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FWIW I've used Ryan's Geovids at APS and was ranging the side of a dirt hill at 840 yards in the bright morning sun with no problems, they're so fast they're scarey. That said if the 1200S I just got does 1/2 as well I'll be more than satisfied. Can't wait until tomorrow when I can try them out - still don't know if I can get used to not carrying my rifle when I lay out the COFs.
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Old 04-11-2008, 12:02 PM
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I broke down and bought some Geovids last season, and have yet to find anything they can't target. Dark, light, sun, rain, beach, snow... everything.

But I still practice with the mildots.
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Old 04-11-2008, 4:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf View Post
and when the battery goes dead . . .

its so easy guys just remember - size of target * 27.77 / mils = distance in yards - so easy a caveman can do it
and when the battery goes dead, stick your spare battery in it. if that fails, then mill it. the battery is supposed to be good for like a thousand times.
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Old 04-11-2008, 4:09 PM
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Using my mils to come up with range to target is not something I'm very good at. I see it as something that I will always need to work on I guess. Mainly because I don't want to give up points at matches where it's a required part of a stage.

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Old 04-11-2008, 4:17 PM
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Seeing this reminds me - its a sign of the times - machines are replacing brain power - how many of you gays can still do long math as opposed to pulling out a calc and how many of you (under the age of say 40) actually know how to use a slide rule.
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Old 04-11-2008, 4:18 PM
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Theres a 7-11 at every corner, you can buy batteries there.
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Old 04-11-2008, 4:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf View Post
Seeing this reminds me - its a sign of the times - machines are replacing brain power - how many of you gays can still do long math as opposed to pulling out a calc and how many of you (under the age of say 40) actually know how to use a slide rule.
Sign of the times? Maybe a little bit. I can still do long division and multiplication...heck, I still remember some calculus.

Knowing how to mil is a skill that every rifleman should know. Its essential when everything else fails. But I don't think we should spend too much time on it while there are many other aspects of long range shooting that make a much bigger difference.
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Old 04-11-2008, 4:56 PM
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FWIW, I just got back from shooting in the bright sun of my favorite desert spot. A nice 80 degrees and a switchy tailwind. 820 yards to the bush. 808 to the dirt in front of the target. Target read 812. Had a target at 600 but the first round hit the bolt in the center dropping it. Field Firing Solutions works pretty well. So do the geovids.



Couldn't get all 3 numbers to show up on the camera, even though they were visible to the eye.




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Old 04-11-2008, 5:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf View Post
Seeing this reminds me - its a sign of the times - machines are replacing brain power - how many of you gays can still do long math as opposed to pulling out a calc and how many of you (under the age of say 40) actually know how to use a slide rule.
Unlike Ryan, I'm not going to admit to being one of those "gays."

I can use a slide rule, but only because when I was 10 I found one and made my pops teach me. A slide rule is still a tool, just like a calculator, just like paper/pencil, just like mil-dots. If you wanted to take all technology out of shooting we'd go back to irons and spotter. Heck, no technology would mean no rifle, and we'd be throwing spears.

It does make sense to know how to range with your reticle. I do it all the time on known distance targets just to see if I can do it correctly. Sometimes I'm way off and realize I forgot to adjust my scope to the ranging magnification
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Old 04-11-2008, 5:37 PM
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the only thing i don't like about milling is that the size of the target has to be known. plus the time issue. it's so much easier to aim and press a button rather then figure how big the target is and how many mills the target is.

and besides, how many guys know how to use an abacus? hmmmm. i learned how to use one in the 4th grade. the simplicity in using a laser rangefinder is the easiest way to go.

i bet in the next few years, high end scopes will have an optional laser range finder built in. it's only a matter of time.

Last edited by PistolPete75; 04-11-2008 at 5:46 PM..
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Old 04-11-2008, 5:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rksimple View Post
FWIW, I just got back from shooting in the bright sun of my favorite desert spot. A nice 80 degrees and a switchy tailwind. 820 yards to the bush. 808 to the dirt in front of the target. Target read 812. Had a target at 600 but the first round hit the bolt in the center dropping it. Field Firing Solutions works pretty well. So do the geovids.



Couldn't get all 3 numbers to show up on the camera, even though they were visible to the eye.




nice photography, you have alot of nice gear in that last photo. looks about 10k right there. how accurate is that ballistics program? are you getting center mass hits on all your shots past 600yards with that software? jbm seems to be a little off past 600yards.

Last edited by PistolPete75; 04-11-2008 at 5:54 PM..
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Old 04-11-2008, 6:12 PM
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Any of you who are coming up to the big Norcal match better know how to range a target using only your scope (no LRF allowed for some stages), and be able to do it accurately. To within +/- 5 yards at distances out to 600 yards. It's a big part of the points total.
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Old 04-11-2008, 6:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf View Post
Seeing this reminds me - its a sign of the times - machines are replacing brain power - how many of you gays can still do long math as opposed to pulling out a calc and how many of you (under the age of say 40) actually know how to use a slide rule.

I not only know how, I still have my slide rule, my slide rule holster and my pocket protector. I have an abacus to balance my checkbook. I used to hold the record for inverting a matrix with pencil and paper at my little college on the Charles River.

But I use a LRF.

Tools have evolved. Shouldn't we?
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Old 04-11-2008, 6:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pthfndr View Post
Any of you who are coming up to the big Norcal match better know how to range a target using only your scope (no LRF allowed for some stages), and be able to do it accurately. To within +/- 5 yards at distances out to 600 yards. It's a big part of the points total.
good looking out. i never shot in a match that required to mill targets out. are the targets' size given or is that unknown also?
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