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Calgunners in Service This forum is a place for our active duty and deployed members to share, request and have a bit of home where ever they are.

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  #1  
Old 06-30-2014, 6:20 AM
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Default Have Military Reservists (not CA NG) bought off roster handguns?

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...le=32000-32030

32000. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.

(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:

(4) The sale or purchase of a handgun, if the handgun is sold to,
or purchased by, the Department of Justice, a police department, a
sheriff's official, a marshal's office, the Department of Corrections
and Rehabilitation, the California Highway Patrol, any district
attorney's office, any federal law enforcement agency, or the
military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for
use in the discharge of their official duties. This section does not
prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies
of a handgun.



-----------------------

Is there an FFL out there that interprets this as written?

1) Reservists is not defined. Military is military.

2) The last sentence exempts “sworn members of these agencies”, not just the agency itself. The sentence before that focuses on the agencies themselves. These are two different exemptions.

3) PCS orders are only one of many means to validate residence. They are a unique form of validation for servicemen. They are not the only means.

This reads as a Reservist not on active duty (just a regular drilling reservist on TPU status) could show up with a current/valid Military ID, and his CA DMV registration and be good to go.

I’m not splitting hairs with anyone here. It doesn’t matter if I feel I am right or not. The question is has a Reservist bought an off roster handgun with a Military ID and something other than PCS orders to show residency? Which FFL did they use?

Secondarily, I’m deployed right now. I have 400 day orders. I will be back before those 400 days expire. My orders have me reporting to a base in CA. They are not PCS orders per say, but they are orders activating me and placing my reporting station to a CA base. Would that work? I guess that’s a question for an FFL willing to accept that as legit documentation.

So has any reservist pulled this off with an actual off roster purchase? If there isn't an FFL that would do this then my opinion doesn't matter.
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Old 06-30-2014, 9:36 AM
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You've got a interesting concept here.

This is California, so it's hard to be optimistic. I can see at least two problems reading the section in context:

1) The section "does not prohibit" sales to "sworn members" of the military and naval forces. Military members do swear an oath upon enlistment or commissioning, but reading the section in context, I have to think that it's referring to those folks who have sworn an oath to perform law enforcement duties. That's a different oath.

2) The section authorizes the listed agencies to purchase off-roster weapons for use in "the discharge of their official duties." It then contains the language about not prohibiting purchase by sworn members. The context is that weapons are for use in official duties. Under what circumstances does the military authorize its members to use personally owned weapons in the discharge of official duties?

Last edited by RickD427; 06-30-2014 at 10:02 AM..
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  #3  
Old 06-30-2014, 9:46 AM
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No go.... good try though
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  #4  
Old 06-30-2014, 10:16 AM
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It says for use in the discharge of their official duties.

So unless you have a reason to have a non issued weapon you would need for official duties it's not going to work it seems.
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Old 06-30-2014, 11:17 AM
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So then no one's done this.

What about the remainder of my active duty orders?
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Old 06-30-2014, 1:58 PM
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I haven't bothered with it. I doubted it applied to us in our own personal weapons.
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  #7  
Old 06-30-2014, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Snoopy47 View Post
So then no one's done this.

What about the remainder of my active duty orders?
You're focusing on the wrong thing. It's not an orders issue. You are neglecting a huge part here. It says that you need to rationalize it for use in an official capacity.

What military job do you do that requires you to need a civilian gun and not an issued handgun.

Only pretty high level guys in the military get to use weapons that aren't in the services normal arsenal, even less get to use personally bought weapons.

To answer your question I doubt there is an FFL out there willing to put his neck on the line so you can buy an off roster handgun. At the very least you would probably need to provide a written document from you CO stating why you need the gun for your job and why the unit won't buy it for you.
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Old 06-30-2014, 8:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun_Smoke View Post
You're focusing on the wrong thing. It's not an orders issue. You are neglecting a huge part here. It says that you need to rationalize it for use in an official capacity.

What military job do you do that requires you to need a civilian gun and not an issued handgun.

Only pretty high level guys in the military get to use weapons that aren't in the services normal arsenal, even less get to use personally bought weapons.
I'd like to meet any individual that was allowed to use their own personal weapon for any official military duties. Rick as always, has hit it on the head with the right answers. And I'm going to hazard a guess that a letter on .mil letterhead signed by a commander would be required to purchase any weapon deemed for "official use."
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  #9  
Old 06-30-2014, 9:17 PM
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Military in CA (reserves or active) can not purchase off roster. No military unit will allow a service member to carry a personal weapon on duty. Period. Certain units have more toys (AKs, FNs, M1As, Uzis, HKs) but those are still DOD weapons.

If a unit open purchased off roster weapons; that would be a different story. But you would know it was a unit purchase. Private Smuckatelli/Major Dilweed trying to BS you into believing his super secret squirrel Delta Ranger Seal Force team wants him to buy his own side arm to keep it off the books and super secret is full of crap.

Even military police/SP/Provost Marshals are not "real cops". Sorry guys, but it is the truth. Their authority ends at the base gate (or military property). Now NCIS, OSI and CID (FLETC trained 1811's) working in their field as sworn federal agents are a different story. But your average service member (CA resident or not) are tied to the Roster.
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  #10  
Old 06-30-2014, 9:39 PM
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just count yourself lucky we don't have to take the HSC test at all.
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  #11  
Old 07-01-2014, 5:17 PM
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just count yourself lucky we don't have to take the HSC test at all.
Exactly And once ur off orders join the pursuit of LE and join the "have whatever you want" club
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  #12  
Old 07-02-2014, 3:03 AM
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Exactly And once ur off orders join the pursuit of LE and join the "have whatever you want" club
I sort of already have. I've already graduated the Police Academy. No one was hiring at the time (collapsed economy), and then I signed up for this a few years later.

I renewed my academy credentials before I deployed.

Now will be a good time to try and make the LEO transition again. My deployment will be behind me, and I doubt I'd get deployed again before my contract expires.

I've probed agencies already. I'll be better off waiting to apply again after I'm back.

I actually had to walk away from two Police Agency interviews because of this deployment. Those aren't easy to get. I was rather pissed.
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Old 07-05-2014, 4:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoopy47 View Post
I sort of already have. I've already graduated the Police Academy. No one was hiring at the time (collapsed economy), and then I signed up for this a few years later.

I renewed my academy credentials before I deployed.

Now will be a good time to try and make the LEO transition again. My deployment will be behind me, and I doubt I'd get deployed again before my contract expires.

I've probed agencies already. I'll be better off waiting to apply again after I'm back.

I actually had to walk away from two Police Agency interviews because of this deployment. Those aren't easy to get. I was rather pissed.
Why not any Civil Service position? I have been a lawman for 30 years. I have seen lot of people, including Veterans, come and go. One guy (Desert Storm Vet) I terminated during his probation did a lot better as a fire fighter.
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Old 07-05-2014, 4:58 PM
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Why not any Civil Service position? I have been a lawman for 30 years. I have seen lot of people, including Veterans, come and go. One guy (Desert Storm Vet) I terminated during his probation did a lot better as a fire fighter.
Firefighters actually have to "stay" in shape.
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Old 07-06-2014, 7:57 AM
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^^^ I see a lot of chubby firefighters these days. The is a fire station near my house, and the chubby guys are always out in PT gear with a radio walking. When I first started working in LE it seemed most FF's were in shape and always working out. I think time have changed...
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Old 07-06-2014, 7:07 PM
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It depends on what fire station just like a police department. Your supervisor is a slob or lazy and the others will be too.
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Old 07-06-2014, 10:03 PM
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A lot of FF suffer from in shape fat guy syndrome.

NFL lineman are super fat but they are in great shape.

When you do a job like FF you inherently do a lot of physical stuff but you may eat like **** and not run 2 miles a day so you pack on some extra weight.
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Old 08-29-2014, 7:43 PM
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There was a time, not too terribly long ago, when CA had people show up with their own weapons...I would hate to see CA paint themselves into a ISIS-styled corner, and have to rely upon their citizens to defend once again.
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Old 09-02-2014, 6:10 AM
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I posted a couple threads on this lately. Basically, it will come down to what a FFL will accept. It's the same exemption LEO use. LEO told me on this forum they just show their ID. It has been suggested you might need a letter from your command but it's really subjective.

I think it's possible but it's up to the FFL. If you look at the arguments in the thread I posted, it's basically all conjecture and nobody seems to have tried it. I probably will when I decide I need/want another handgun. Actually using a personal handgun in duties in the military will almost never happen, of course.. even specwar usually has it procured by the unit.

But if it's on letterhead, and an FFL will accept it... then it's on paper and who can argue with that?
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Old 09-02-2014, 7:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawernator View Post
I posted a couple threads on this lately. Basically, it will come down to what a FFL will accept........
I asked because a friend (LEO) got a Blue Lable Gen 4 Glock at a gun store, and he was convinced that this pricing from this shop would apply the Blue Lable to military ID holders. But it being Gen 4 is off roster for us normally, and if this shop was willing to do the Gen 4 then I was wondering if they might do an XDm (which I want, I'm not into Glock).

You basically are thinking the same thing I am. I need to find an FFL that will do it with this train of logic. I'm going to try it when I get back from deployment. If they want more than just my ID as proof of service then I'll have to just give up. As a reserve, I wont have PCS orders.
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Old 09-02-2014, 9:49 AM
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As a military member (active, reserve, guard, retired) you cannot in the this POS state, buy an off-roster Glock thru their Blue Label program. Or any off-roster handgun for that matter. I was in the process of starting a DROS on a blue label G19. I had told gun counter dude that it needed to be Gen 3. Course he grabbed a Gen 4, and after completing a portion of the DROS, I looked over at the gun and noticed the switchable backstraps. I told him he wasn't allowed to sell it to me, as I was only a lowly retired E-8 and no longer in law enforcement.

My best friend was standing next me laughing at me as he is a sworn LEO with my old dept and can scoop up all the nifty off-roster handguns he wants. If I knew that things were going to go so ****ty with gun laws, I would have went back as a Level 1 Reserve when I finally came back from being overseas. Oh well.
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Old 09-02-2014, 11:52 AM
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You could be in the reserves in SEAL Team 17 for all anyone knows lol. And the blue label program definitely applies to us as military, SO glad I found out about those programs before I make any more purchases. Thankfully got my XD-40 for only $500 new.

If you find an FFL willing do let us know. I'm sure some will. It makes sense.
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Old 09-03-2014, 7:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawernator View Post
You could be in the reserves in SEAL Team 17 for all anyone knows lol. And the blue label program definitely applies to us as military, SO glad I found out about those programs before I make any more purchases. Thankfully got my XD-40 for only $500 new.

If you find an FFL willing do let us know. I'm sure some will. It makes sense.
As I said, you can't buy off-roster weapons via the Blue Label program unless you are Law Enforcement. Good luck on finding an FFL in CA that participates in the Blue Label program that would jeopardize jail and their license to break the law.
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Old 09-03-2014, 7:45 PM
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Really, sure seems like the law plainly states how It can be legal
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Old 09-06-2014, 8:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawernator View Post
Really, sure seems like the law plainly states how It can be legal
If you find a Blue Label dealer willing to do it, let me know. The only one around my area (Sacramento Black Rifle) won't blue label any off roster handguns to anyone except LEO. That I know for a fact.
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Old 09-06-2014, 9:26 PM
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"the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for
use in the discharge of their official duties." OFFICAL DUTIES

While it maybe be "possible" its not going to happen. No dealer is going to risk being a test case. Military in CA are just like regular civilians. Sorry.

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Old 09-06-2014, 9:55 PM
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We'll see.
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Old 09-06-2014, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawernator View Post
We'll see.
Gawernator,

We're still looking.

Can you cite any military units that authorize the use personally owned weapons for use in "official duties"?

You've dropped the name of Seal Team 17 (Navy Reserve - Coronado). Does that unit authorize the use of privately owned weapons? Are you a member of that unit, or are you just dropping the unit name?
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Old 09-06-2014, 10:54 PM
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Default Have Military Reservists (not CA NG) bought off roster handguns?

17/18 both use a bunch of guns but AFAIK they're bought with a government purchase card. Of course it would be pretty dumb to put my command out on the internet but I'll say I'm going to little creek for a while

Edit: also, how are official duties defined? We took an oath to defend against enemies foreign and domestic, right? So, if I'm in uniform and shoot a robber at the grocery store, is than an official duty?

Lol... Serious but then not

Edit2: DEVGRU I know for a fact can requisition almost anything conceivable, so there's that as well
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Old 09-06-2014, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawernator View Post
17/18 both use a bunch of guns but AFAIK they're bought with a government purchase card. Of course it would be pretty dumb to put my command out on the internet but I'll say I'm going to little creek for a while

Edit: also, how are official duties defined? We took an oath to defend against enemies foreign and domestic, right? So, if I'm in uniform and shoot a robber at the grocery store, is than an official duty?

Lol... Serious but then not

Edit2: DEVGRU I know for a fact can requisition almost anything conceivable, so there's that as well
Gawernator,

We're not discussing requisition in this thread. We're talking about personal purchase.

You still haven't cited any instance where military personnel are authorized to use personally owned firearms in the performance of official duties.

I know that you really want to use this section to accomplish a personal purchase and that you're throwing every argument that you've got toward that goal. But you still have two obstacles to overcome:

1) You have to convince that the "sworn members" of the military include military members (presumably because they swore an oath). The problem here is one of context, California law uses the term "Sworn" in the context of those who have taken a law enforcement oath. You've got the benefit of some imprecise language in the statute, but (IMHO) you haven't passed that hurdle yet.

2) Even if you get past the first hurdle, you still have to deal with the "performance of duty" element of the statute. Still waiting for you to cite an authorization.

You're 0-2 at this point. You need to get to 2-0 in order to win.

With respect to your example, a robbery suspect is a common criminal. They get dealt with in a criminal justice system. "Enemies of the State" are a higher order of criminal. Your military enlistment/commissioning oath says nothing about defending against criminal conduct. You are not in the performance of a military duty by using force against a common criminal. In fact if you were a member of the Army or Air Force, you would be in violation of 18 USC 1385 (a felony) if you used force against a domestic criminal in an official capacity.
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Old 09-06-2014, 11:27 PM
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Default Have Military Reservists (not CA NG) bought off roster handguns?

Interesting.

And to clarify, yes when you're that high speed you /could/ but I don't see it as common practice per se - because you can get anything on uncle sam's dollar - if that makes sense

Oh, and check your PM!

There's no handgun I'm looking to buy in the near future but if/when that situation arises it would be nice for us military to be able to purchase off roster, if a way can be found. Also assuming the roster still exists since there's a lawsuit if I'm not mistaken
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Old 09-07-2014, 6:26 AM
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People in this thread are confusing the Blue Label program on the manufacturer side (Glock) with an exemption from the CA Roster, which is state law. Just because Glock lets mil participate in the Blue Label program (which is awesome, dont get me wrong), doesn't mean they have the ability to override CA state law that says .mil can only purchase off roster if it is for official duties. There is no authorization in effect for military personnel to use personal weapons in a duty status in any way, shape, or form. If some HSLD unit wants to use non standard issue weapons (taking the list into consideration, this would be non M9, M11 type handguns), those are acquired through the supply system and issued (as is any other gear that they want for their missions, I am familiar with their acquisitions processes). They are still military property, not personal property, and not subject to the roster (or any other state laws) for that very reason...because they are military property.

Sorry, it just doesn't work the way you guys are trying to make it work. Military is subject to the roster.
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Old 09-20-2014, 9:04 AM
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Snoopy47, there are some members of the military that would be able to purchase off roster handguns, but those are a small crowd. Some members of CID have sworn 1811 Special Agent Status. There are CID agents in both the Reserve and the Guard. If you have your ID card showing that you are an 1811 under the US Military, i'm positive that gun stores stocking off roster handguns would sell to you. I am unaware of any gun store that sells off roster handguns that requires a letterhead from the department to sell to the individual officer/deputy/agent unless that store has to special order the handgun from out of state. As for assault weapons, that does require official letterhead in addition to showing your ID card and I very much doubt a commander of a CID unit would provide such a memorandum. If you are not a member of the armed forces with 1811 status, stores with off roster handguns are not going to sell to you if you present only your CAC card.

As for your future career in L.E., I wish you the best of luck. I think you are in a very strong position to get hired being military with a lot of life experience. If you are in the SF Bay Area, the Alameda County Sheriff's Dept. runs a police academy that is very paramilitary in its attention to detail, physical fitness, uniform and appearance and discipline. If you are in the SF Bay Area and your police academy credentials have expired and you need to go through an academy again, I suggest that you apply with ACSO. Being prior military, I think you would excel at their academy. Being a sworn ACSO deputy would also exempt you from the off roster handgun restriction. BTW, I am not a deputy, I just went through their academy years ago.
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Old 09-21-2014, 9:45 AM
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Default Have Military Reservists (not CA NG) bought off roster handguns?

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Originally Posted by ptmn View Post
Snoopy47, there are some members of the military that would be able to purchase off roster handguns, but those are a small crowd. Some members of CID have sworn 1811 Special Agent Status. There are CID agents in both the Reserve and the Guard. If you have your ID card showing that you are an 1811 under the US Military, i'm positive that gun stores stocking off roster handguns would sell to you. I am unaware of any gun store that sells off roster handguns that requires a letterhead from the department to sell to the individual officer/deputy/agent unless that store has to special order the handgun from out of state. As for assault weapons, that does require official letterhead in addition to showing your ID card and I very much doubt a commander of a CID unit would provide such a memorandum. If you are not a member of the armed forces with 1811 status, stores with off roster handguns are not going to sell to you if you present only your CAC card.



As for your future career in L.E., I wish you the best of luck. I think you are in a very strong position to get hired being military with a lot of life experience. If you are in the SF Bay Area, the Alameda County Sheriff's Dept. runs a police academy that is very paramilitary in its attention to detail, physical fitness, uniform and appearance and discipline. If you are in the SF Bay Area and your police academy credentials have expired and you need to go through an academy again, I suggest that you apply with ACSO. Being prior military, I think you would excel at their academy. Being a sworn ACSO deputy would also exempt you from the off roster handgun restriction. BTW, I am not a deputy, I just went through their academy years ago.

PTMN seems to have hit the ticket: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_agent

Looks like they can conceal carry as well!


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Originally Posted by Tmatt1973 View Post
HR 218 / Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act / LEOSA(The Actual Law)



LEOSA, as Amended by the National Defense Authorization Act of 2013 (Jan 2, 2013)



(Changes have been italicized.)







§ 926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers



(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).



(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--



(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or



(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.



(c) As used in this section, the term "qualified law enforcement officer" means an employee of a governmental agency who--



(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest or apprehension under section 807(b) of title 10, United States Code (article 7(b) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice);



(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;



(3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency which could result in suspension or loss of police powers;



(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm;



(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and



(6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.



(d) The identification required by this subsection is the photographic identification issued by the governmental agency for which the individual is employed that identifies the employee as a police officer or law enforcement officer of the agency.



(e) As used in this section, the term "firearm"--



(1) except as provided in this subsection, has the same meaning as in section 921 of this title;



(2) includes ammunition not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act; and



(3) does not include--

(A) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the National Firearms Act);

(B) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this title); and

(C) any destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this title).



(f) For the purposes of this section, a law enforcement officer of the Amtrak Police Department, a law enforcement officer of the Federal Reserve, or a law enforcement or police officer of the executive branch of the Federal Government qualifies as an employee of a governmental agency who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest or apprehension under section 807(b) of title 10, United States Code (article 7(b) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice)."
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Old 09-21-2014, 1:31 PM
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Yes, the NCO's, WO's and Commisioned Officers of CID/CI that have 1811 status do carry concealed when off duty; however, every one of them that I have met were limited to concealed carry with the M11/Sig P228. They did not have the option to carry personally owned. I have heard of some in the Guard CID that carry the M9, but I have not seen that. As for off roster handguns, they wouldn't be able to carry per their unit specific regulations (if they did, they could face UCMJ), but FFL's would sell to them if they show their ID's showing 1811.
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Old 09-21-2014, 7:04 PM
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Roger that
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Old 09-23-2014, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by epilepticninja View Post
I'd like to meet any individual that was allowed to use their own personal weapon for any official military duties. Rick as always, has hit it on the head with the right answers. And I'm going to hazard a guess that a letter on .mil letterhead signed by a commander would be required to purchase any weapon deemed for "official use."
Special forces guys commonly get to carry their own. How do I know? I have a MARSOC buddy who carried his personal 1911 into places he couldn't tell me about because there was a shortage until Colt won the contract. Special forces get a LOT of latitude when it comes to doing whatever they want and getting whatever they want.
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Old 09-23-2014, 12:28 PM
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Rick, PTMN and Kermit have all put out good info. This thread is probably missing something about "how it's done on paper/legal and right way" and "stuff slipping through the cracks" (we all know it happens).
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Old 10-04-2014, 10:06 PM
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Sure. I'll work on that if/when I both desire a Glock and live in California lol
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Old 10-13-2014, 8:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawernator View Post
Rick, PTMN and Kermit have all put out good info. This thread is probably missing something about "how it's done on paper/legal and right way" and "stuff slipping through the cracks" (we all know it happens).
Here's a good example of what happens when "stuff slips through the cracks."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...02d_story.html
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