[Billy Jack]

As I posted before we are about to file our second Federal lawsuit against a CLEO with an illegal CCW policy. Lots of speculation about which Los Angeles County department we are going to sue. You shall all learn soon. The perception on some sites is that these suits will only benefit our clients. This is simply not the case. Most CLEOS can actually read, although selectively when it comes to CCW laws but they and their counsel are aware of what is going on.

You have all heard of the Domino affect. Well that is what we expect to see statewide. That has already happened in the Santa Maria case and has been posted here preciously. Cities and counties are not going to spend taxpayer funds to defend against something an adjacent department has already lost a Federal lawsuit over. Yes, CLEOS are arrogant and sometimes stupid but they do not control their budgets. Politicians do that and they are not going to support corruption when it can hurt them politically.

We are currently watching LAPD Chief William J Bratton with a smile on our face. Poor man is unable to pass the POST test required of all of his officers and thus he requires a CCW issued by the Police Commission. They are all civilians, just as he is. Not being a Peace Officer under 832PC he can not carry a firearm without a CCW. Another interesting aspect of he and them being civilians is they do not have a working knowledge of 12050PC and because of this and arrogance, they illegally issued his CCW. They carried this forward with all of his renewals.

Why has no one taken action against the Chief? DOJ does not care. Police Commission does not care. Public does not care. A recent phone caller to the Police Commission to obtain a copy of the Policy and an application was met with the statement: "We do not issue them but you can try". Have they not heard of Salute v Pitchess? Apparently not. Billy Jack and his TBJ members are sitting here waiting for a Los Angeles resident with Good Cause who has been denied in the past 12 months to contact us. We will do the rest.

A suit against Chief Bratton and the Police Commission will generate statewide and nationwide media attention due to his high profile. How many of you are aware of what he is currently doing to the SWAT Units? The same thing that was done to the LAPD at large in the 1970's? He is about to destroy the integrity of the units. I realize that may strike some of you as a oxymoron but for the most part these are great men who pride themselves on being the best of the best. Bratton wants to bring 'diversity. to the SWAT Units by recruiting female members. In order to do this he is removing strength requirements.

Strength requirements in SWAT Units are as necessary as in Fire Service. Members need to be able drag a victim or a brother officer form a crime scene should things go sideways. I never worked a SWAT unit but I can attest to the need to be able to drag a victim from harms way. If Bratton continues on this path he will be inviting a Rampart type situation where the desire to bring everyone into the 'big tent' will bring about unintended consequences.

It will be up to those of you who read my Blog and visit my site to bring us together with those denied LAPD applicants that want redress. Forcing CLEOS to follow the Constitution is the most effective use of my time. I can not do this without your assistance. Please spread the word that this site exists and we are not afraid of any Chief or Sheriff. I have worn the LASD Badge proudly and know that you do not fear that which you understand. Fear of law enforcement comes from lack of knowledge. On the other hand there is real fear of Billy Jack, TBJ, his volunteers on the part of law enforcement.

If I may borrow a phrase that most of you are familiar with; "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". Law enforcement officials know exactly what they are doing. Just as Bill Clinton, when asked why he did what he had done, said it was: 'because he could'. Unconstitutional CCW issuance will stop only when enough people take a stand.

"I get by with a little help from my friends."

Billy Jack

californiaconcealedcarry.com

[hawk1]

Bratton a civilian? Like Willie Williams?

Any plans to go after Riverside County on the CCW issue?

[Sig226]

Originally Posted by Billy Jack

Billy Jack and his TBJ members are sitting here waiting for a Los Angeles resident with Good Cause who has been denied in the past 12 months to contact us. We will do the rest.

I know what I define as good cause--- to defend my life and those of my loved ones.

May I ask what you are looking for with regard to "good cause"?


One more question, is this for LA County residents, or residents in the "city" of LA?



In any event- THANK YOU for your time and effort into this just cause. If I don't meet the above requirements please let me (us) know if there is anything we can do to help.

[sfwdiy]

Originally Posted by Billy Jack

In order to do this he is removing strength requirements.

Most of the SWAT operators I've seen that work for LAPD are really big dudes. Like in excess of 220 lbs, most of it muscle. Now add a good 60-70 lbs of gear onto that dude (body armor, tac vest, long gun or two, handgun or two, mags and ammo, helmet, comm. gear, maybe a backpack with hydration, climbing rope and gear, various tools, etc.) and that becomes a lot to drag or carry. I'd have a hard time dragging one of those guys any appreciable distance, especially if I was wearing all that gear myself on top of it. I don't think I'd be able to actually lift and carry an injured man of that size.

As for CCW denials, Billy Jack, have you thought about posting up ads on craigslist, or possibly even a newspaper advertisement? It'd help you reach a larger audience, but I bet the signal to noise ratio would get a lot worse.

--Ben

[Billy Jack]

Los Angeles city. Yes just like Willie Williams, not a California Peace Officer. As to Craigslist, I have never used or visited it. As to a newspaper ad, thought about it but much too expensive. Hoping members will spread the word and denied applicants will come forward.

[sfwdiy]

Originally Posted by Billy Jack

As to Craigslist, I have never used or visited it. As to a newspaper ad, thought about it but much too expensive.

http://losangeles.craigslist.org Craigslist is very widely known and reaches quite a large audience. It's the biggest free classified bulletin board in existence on the web. There's a specific board for just about every major city in the world at this point.

I was thinking that a newspaper ad would probably be too expensive for a one-time shot. We'll keep our ears open for ya.

--Ben

[yellowfin]

Something that needs to be addressed is that for application, the fee is basically stolen by any PD/SD that rejects the applicant by rubber stamp policies. Is there a way to push for it to be refunded (plus interest?) in the event of refusal? It is in effect right now acting like a poll tax to deter people from applying. It sure shouldn't take $200 for a department to stamp something No when the decision is made up beforehand, should it?

[Glock22Fan]

I know what I define as good cause--- to defend my life and those of my loved ones.

May I ask what you are looking for with regard to "good cause"?

We know what you mean and agree with you. However, to stand any success in these barren areas, we must present cases that are clearly within the Attorney General's definition, which can found at http://www.californiaconcealedcarry....g_opinion.html

The (1977) Attorney General's Opinion on Good Causes
OPINION NO. CR. 77/30 I.L. 'the issuing authority must determine whether the threat to the applicant (or other causal situation) is as real as the applicant asserts (e.g., is there a clear and present danger to the applicant, his spouse, his family or his employees)? Finally, if the danger is manifest, the authority should determine whether that danger cannot be significantly alleviated by alternative means of security and whether in fact can be lawfully mitigated by the applicant's obtaining a concealed weapon license.'

This decision was rendered By Attorney General Evelle J. Younger, August 23, 1977.

So, "protection of my life" is not, in itself, sufficient even though you may know a CLEO that would accept it.

[blackbox]

FYI, good op-ed piece on the SWAT changes in today's LA Times:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,3411363.story

[Big O]

I've seen the Chief in uniform with his sidearm in a duty holster on the news. Since this is not concealed carry, he is carrying openly which means the weapon may not be loaded or he is in violation. Is he within the law to openly carry a loaded weapon since he is not bona fide Peace Officer under California law?

[artherd]

It would be nice to see him in federal cuffs for violating the same laws he is supposed to enforce upon us.

[Sawdust]

Originally Posted by artherd

It would be nice to see him in federal cuffs for violating the same laws he is supposed to enforce upon us.

Hmmmm...mebbe someone ought to follow him around and call a cop when he gets in a school zone while wearing his gun...I'd pay to see that.

Sawdust

[Piper]

If Bratton is carrying a loaded firearm in public, shouldn't he at least have a guard card and firearms card issued to him from BSIS?

I guess violating the law is okay when the law is inconvenient for government officials.

[CCWFacts]

We had a thread on this. I looked up the school zone law in particular, and having a CCW exempted the person from the school zone law, regardless of whether the gun is concealed or not, or even if it's listed on the permit. That was my reading of it.

As for plain old open carry, has someone done a careful reading of the statutes? If the "no loaded guns" law is written like the school zone law, then, strangely, a CCW would allow open carry, even though there is a separate concept of an open carry permit (which is never issued).

[elroy]

from experiance i can say that allowing females to be even regular police officers ( much less SWAT ) can be a very bad idea , maybe 1 in a 1000000000 can pull it off but in general , women are not wired to deal with deadly situations , of the several examples i've seen (during an incedent , live , right in front of me ) in the heat of the moment they tend to freeze up or get cold feet about getting in harms way ( i watched them hide in bushes scared to death when NO gun was present , thanks H.B. ) , some guys do it too so i'm not trying to pick on the gals , but it can get someone killed , themself , their partner who counts on them to ACT, or the poor civilian they were sent to help ( if hees still alive by the time they get there )!!! oh well , maybe they have better handwriting for filling out a report after all the bad guys get away laughing .....

[The Soup Nazi]

Some women (and men) have no business at all in the field of protecting the lives of others, I've seen and heard about enough medical disqualifications in the military to know that. That being said, I'm all for women in SWAT, but only if they can meet the very same fitness and strength standards that men do. I'm sure some men aren't up to snuff for the job and so wash out, females are no exception.

[postal]

OOOHHHHH!

Go get that civvie! Hope you can locate a qualified client soon.

Regarding "craigslist"- It is VERY anti gun. And the site's policy, is if an ad gets 3 complaints, it's automatically deleted. The anti gun users of craigslist are very aggressive and efficient at getting gun related ads deleted. So it would just be a waste of time to try.

[dustoff31]

Bratton might have a much bigger problem on his hands if someone can show the he doesn't have a POST basic cert.

CA PC 832.4. (a) Any undersheriff or deputy sheriff of a county, any
police officer of a city, and any police officer of a district
authorized by statute to maintain a police department, who is first
employed after January 1, 1974, and is responsible for the prevention
and detection of crime and the general enforcement of the criminal
laws of this state, shall obtain the basic certificate issued by the
Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training within 18 months
of his or her employment in order to continue to exercise the powers
of a peace officer after the expiration of the 18-month period.
(b) Every peace officer listed in subdivision (a) of Section
830.1, except a sheriff, or elected marshal, or a deputy sheriff
described in subdivision (c) of Section 830.1, who is employed after
January 1, 1988, shall obtain the basic certificate issued by the
Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training upon completion of
probation, but in no case later than 24 months after his or her
employment, in order to continue to exercise the powers of a peace
officer after the expiration of the 24-month period.
Deputy sheriffs described in subdivision (c) of Section 830.1
shall obtain the basic certificate issued by the Commission on Peace
Officer Standards and Training within 24 months after being
reassigned from custodial duties to general law enforcement duties.
In those cases where the probationary period established by the
employing agency is 24 months, the peace officers described in this
subdivision may continue to exercise the powers of a peace officer
for an additional three-month period to allow for the processing of
the certification application.
(c) Each police chief, or any other person in charge of a local
law enforcement agency, appointed on or after January 1, 1999, as a
condition of continued employment, shall obtain the basic certificate
issued by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training
within two years of appointment.

[Billy Jack]

Thanks dustoff31, I shall have to send a PRAR to LAPD requesting a copy of the elusive POST Certificate 'Mr.' Bratton needs to have obtained if he intends to continue serving as Chief. If in fact he has failed to obtain it I am sure the Board of Police Commissioners will give him a pass. Oops, sorry, that is a state requirement and they can not waive it.

Remember they issued him a CCW contrary to state law and LAPD Policy so I will not be surprised if they have failed to make him comply. If I determine he does not have the required POST Certificate it will be up to someone residing in Los Angeles, City of the Angels to take appropriate action.

Anyone out there have the stones to do so?

Billy Jack

[Mute]

Does it have to be City of Los Angeles, or does county work also?

[GuyW]

Originally Posted by Mute

Does it have to be City of Los Angeles, or does county work also?

City

.

[Glock22Fan]

Originally Posted by warpspeed

How can someone find out if he has one ?

I have to go downtown this week or next on another matter ( prop taxes ). Where would I go ? Who would I ask ?

Look back a couple of posts, and you will see that Billy Jack is putting in a PRAR to obtain a copy (if it exists). So, that will cover it.

Thanks for offering though.

[CCWFacts]

Is a POST certificate a public record? I would have guessed it's more like a personnel record or an academic record, ie, not public. If it is a public record, cool. Bratton became chief in 2002, and if he needs a POST cert to be chief, and doesn't have one, that's good! He should be put in one of those parking enforcement scooters and drive around looking for expired meters. He could be a meter maid because I'm pretty sure that doesn't require a POST cert.

[tankerman]

Perhaps seperating the CCW issue from the SWAT story would cutdown on the confusion of this thread. Two stories two threads

[Billy Jack]

The point of mentioning both items in the same post is to demonstrate the level of corruption that Bratton has brought to LAPD. Favors, special treatment, politically correct SWAT and so forth. He was notorious at NYPD for massaging crime stats to make the former Mayor and former Presidential candidate and himself look good. He is employing the same techniques at LAPD except those pesky MS13 and Crips will not cooperate.

In his line of work, political correctness can get someone killed. Billy Jack has been there, done that.

Billy Jack

[CSDGuy]

Originally Posted by CCWFacts

Is a POST certificate a public record? I would have guessed it's more like a personnel record or an academic record, ie, not public. If it is a public record, cool. Bratton became chief in 2002, and if he needs a POST cert to be chief, and doesn't have one, that's good! He should be put in one of those parking enforcement scooters and drive around looking for expired meters. He could be a meter maid because I'm pretty sure that doesn't require a POST cert.

I wonder if he used the BCW process or if he attended an academy... In either case, Billy Jack's PRA may prove enlightening, IF his POST profile or part of it can be released.



Basic Certificate Waiver: http://www.post.ca.gov/Training/btw_intro.asp


POST Profile: http://www.post.ca.gov/faq/profile-answers.asp

[Mute]

Originally Posted by GuyW

City

.

Ha! This is the first and only time I can actually say I'm sorry I don't live in the City of Los Angeles.

[gunsnrovers]

AFAIK, Bratton passed the POST test in 2004 and is a sworn California Peace Officer.

[Glock22Fan]

Originally Posted by gunsnrovers

AFAIK, Bratton passed the POST test in 2004 and is a sworn California Peace Officer.

Would your knowledge stretch as far as knowing the date in 2004?

Just for amusement, perhaps readers would like to surmise why Bratton needed to get a CCW in late October 2004, if he had passed POST by then (or was expecting to)?

[gunsnrovers]

Did a google search and found this:

http://www.lacp.org/CommNews-2004.html

----------
At the Police Commission Meeting on October 5, 2004:

Chief's Report: Chief Bratton reported that the crime statistics continue to trend to the goal of a 20% reduction in violent crime. He also announced the promotion of Deputy Chief Michel Moore.

Executive Director's Report: Richard Tefank reported that approval has been granted to fill the Commission Executive Assistant I position in the Executive Section and two Management Analyst II positions in the Alarm Section.

Commissioners' Reports: President Cunningham presented Chief Bratton with his POST certification. Commissioner Alarcon reported on the successful kick-off to Domestic Violence Month on October 1st in the City Hall Rotunda. Commissioner Ochi reported on the Public Forum on Proposition 69 and also asked that this issue be agendized for a future meeting. Vice President Skobin reported on an event for the Rape Treatment Foundation.

----------

[Shotgun Man]

Originally Posted by gunsnrovers

Did a google search and found this:
Commissioners' Reports: President Cunningham presented Chief Bratton with his POST certification. [...]
----------

Wait a sec-- all this and gunsnrovers found the answer with a simple google search? Do the POST certs have to be renewed?

[CSDGuy]

There is CPT required to maintain a Basic Certificate, however, I do not know if this applies to managment that does not do field work.

[Glock22Fan]

Interesting.

[CCWFacts]

That means he didn't have it when he was chief from '02 to '04, which is a problem, right?

[CSDGuy]

Well, he's supposed to pass/attain a POST Basic Certificate within 24 months of appointment to his position. I thought that was covered earlier in this thread.

[Glock22Fan]

Originally Posted by CSDGuy

Well, he's supposed to pass/attain a POST Basic Certificate within 24 months of appointment to his position. I thought that was covered earlier in this thread.

Yes, but was he entitled to wear a loaded firearm in uniform during that period?

If so, why did he need the CCW?

And why did he get a CCW from the Commissioners, who are civilians who have no authority to issue under p.c. 12050?

And why did he get a CCW when others without a documented history of threats would be denied?

[CCWFacts]

Originally Posted by CSDGuy

Well, he's supposed to pass/attain a POST Basic Certificate within 24 months of appointment to his position. I thought that was covered earlier in this thread.

Ok, I didn't catch that. So he's probably in the clear on all this. Oh well.

[cbn620]

I think this is wonderful and I for one appreciate your efforts, Billy Jack. I also want to say I've read californiaconcealedcarry.com pretty extensively and would like to extend my thanks to all of those involved in keeping that web site together. It is undeniably an excellent resource, and I fear even that to be an understatement.

[DesertDawg]

I was LAPD for 31 years, but have been retired for 6 years. I know for a FACT that it took Willie "from Philly" Williams a total of 4 times before he finally achieved an acceptable POST score. If I'm not mistaken, Bratton passed the test on his second try.

And AFAIK, Bratton's CCW was signed by Sheriff Leroy Baca, not the civilian LAPD Police Commission.

Of interest was a local talk radio show last night. The host of the show was Kevin Wall (standing in for Al Rantel, on KABC). One of the topics that got a lot of attention was the LAPD SWAT debacle. I recognized the voice of one of the callers as being a LEO that I know (he wouldn't identify himself on the air, for personal reasons, so far be it for me to "out" him in this forum).

Anyway, the "LEO" caller stated that, after Bratton had been Chief of the LAPD for only a short while, he responded to a UO (Unusual Occurrence) in Westwood Village, which is near the UCLA campus. The UO was supposedly a "mini-riot" of some sort, and as soon as Bratton was apprised of the situation, he told the field commander, "Send me 1,000 men!". The field commander had to clue Bratton in on the approximate number of officers that were actually on-duty (less than 500), and then suggested that a platoon from the Metropolitan Division (20 officers) would suffice. Bratton supposedly balked, but went along with the field commanders suggestion. Metro officers responded and the disturbance was calmed shortly after their arrival. Bratton was supposedly FUMING after that!

The "LEO" caller opined that, since Bratton had been second guessed on his tactics that he would have used in New York, he became "obsessed" about the possibility of "neutering" the Metropolitan Division (SWAT is one of the sections within Metro).

Lastly, the "LEO" caller said that then-Mayor Giuliani had FIRED Bratton because of his arrogance AND his inflated ego, plus his erroneous compilation of the "lowered crime rate" in New York.

[Billy Jack]

Thank you for your 31 years of service. Bratton was Giuliani's Dog Spot at NYPD. Rumor is he was fired because they were in competition for media face time. Also common knowledge he massaged the crime figures to make the Mayor and himself look good. Reclassify crimes and shazaam, crime goes down.

Bratton's CCW was issued by LAPD and signed by the acting COP. Bratton's CCW was issued in violation of Policy and statute. Can not share here what those are due to work product privilege but it will prove very embarrassing in a Deposition.

If a qualified applicant comes forward we will destroy the LAPD CCW Policy in Federal court.

Billy Jack


"When policemen break the law, then there isn't any law...just a fight for survival!" Billy Jack

californiaconcealedcarry.com