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  #41  
Old 03-24-2014, 9:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosereader View Post
I've thought about this as well. Determined it's better to apply for a license and carry a knife.

Or, several knives.
You're better off carrying some kind of spray instead of a knife for SD. Spray is ranged and dosen't require you to get up close and personal with your attacker, and most people dont know how to wield a knife for defense. Better chance they'd slip and hurt themselves.

Should you be stopped by the PD, They're likely to better recieve a can of pepperspray than a knife. Carry a knife as a tool, not as a defensive one.

That being said, Ill stick to my things that spray lead.
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  #42  
Old 03-24-2014, 9:33 PM
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Originally Posted by FremontJames View Post
You're better off carrying some kind of spray instead of a knife for SD. Spray is ranged and dosen't require you to get up close and personal with your attacker, and most people dont know how to wield a knife for defense. Better chance they'd slip and hurt themselves.

Should you be stopped by the PD, They're likely to better recieve a can of pepperspray than a knife. Carry a knife as a tool, not as a defensive one.

That being said, Ill stick to my things that spray lead.
In general I'd agree, it doesn't work for most people. I am decent with a knife, though.

More importantly knives are easier to carry than sprays. Unless you go for one of those necklace things but it's just a crime against fashion to wear one of those.
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Rose, you're sick dude
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  #43  
Old 03-25-2014, 6:03 AM
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Lol!....I have shown some CCW permit holders how slow they are when compared to my
knife draw. My knife was at their face before they could get their shirts up.

I'll stick to the Blade, for now.
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  #44  
Old 03-25-2014, 6:39 AM
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I think the wrong question is being asked here. The question shouldn't be "How do we treat him", but "how do we treat those who choose not to carry and their wives/children/themselves end up dead/raped"?

To answer that question we can search the forums here and find plenty of stories were that happened and the comments sections are peppered with "If he'd only had a gun" or some variation of that. Some follow up with comments about how if it'd been them things would have turned out differently, others rant and rave about how the state disarms its citizens...

Which isn't true. If you own a firearm and choose not to carry it, you disarmed yourself. I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong for making that choice, anymore than I'm going to tell someone who chooses to carry is wrong.

You have to do your own cost benefits analysis and decide which is right for you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling you something or advancing their own agenda.

When open carry was legal, I carried openly when I felt the situation required it. When that was no longer legal, I got my CCW...and then I carried every day.

Never had to use it.

Now that I'm not in CA, I carry when I feel the situation may require it, but not daily. And yes I have the New Hampshire equivalent of a CCW, I just don't feel as sketched out by people as I did in CA.

But that's my choice. And should I choose wrong (ie carry it and don't need it, or not carry and need it) I fully expect that someone is going to tell me I'm doing it wrong.
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  #45  
Old 03-25-2014, 6:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanPedroShooter View Post
Okay I agree. What about this, the person in question is a gang banger (how you'd ever find out, I don't know) but lets just say this guy got caught carrying a firearm without a permit. And nothing else.

Do you still acquit?

My gut tells me if I nullify for one, it has to be for all.
depends if he passes the **** bag test.

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Originally Posted by chainsaw View Post
Unless I happen to be on a jury, in which case I will vote to uphold the law, whatever the law might be.
whatever the law may be, no matter what?

Last edited by luckystrike; 03-25-2014 at 6:46 AM..
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  #46  
Old 03-25-2014, 6:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SanPedroShooter View Post
lol wut? Did you break the speed limit today?

Get a grip man.
Comparing a speeding to ticket to illegally carrying concealed is two totally different things. Comparing apples and monkeys.
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  #47  
Old 03-25-2014, 7:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Comparing a speeding to ticket to illegally carrying concealed is two totally different things. Comparing apples and monkeys.


Speeding ticket does not make the offender a prohibited person.
Whereas, getting convicted for illegally carrying a conceal handgun does make the offender a prohibited person.
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  #48  
Old 03-25-2014, 7:10 AM
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if you walk around in fear because you have no gun on you then just go live in a remote area stay away from people and smear yourself with camo paint and enjoy the satisfaction that "they" will never get you. mission accomplished.

If your life is all about "not getting killed" then thats they way to go
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  #49  
Old 03-25-2014, 7:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallabing View Post
Lets say that even under the Insurmountable fear of getting arrested, spending jail time for a significant amount of time, and having their life ruined...



Lets say that the person in question makes the ultimate decision to carry illegally anyway, not because he is a lowlife thug, nor a drug dealer, pimp etc...

Didn't know being a thug, pimp or a drug dealer served as the criteria for riding dirty.

As far as carrying without the paperwork, not a good idea. As others have said, plain folks might not judge you but the cops/courts will.
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  #50  
Old 03-25-2014, 7:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Comparing a speeding to ticket to illegally carrying concealed is two totally different things. Comparing apples and monkeys.
One is a God given and constitutionaly enumerated right, the other is not.

That said, I don't carry illegally and I read so much about knife laws and peperspray that I know that most people carrying a knife of peperspray are breaking some law or ordinance in this state.

For all the people who carry a knife, how many hours a week do you train with knife experts? If you have never done it, you need to. You will be humbled when he takes your knife from you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?
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  #51  
Old 03-25-2014, 7:30 AM
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The Unitd States Constitution with appurtenant amendments is the only "permit" you need.
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  #52  
Old 03-25-2014, 7:45 AM
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Take a look at this-

http://therightscoop.com/200-teens-r...-night-before/


Now where are the Cops? You'd be beaten or killed long before any help arrived. And why should you have to live in fear waiting for an officer to arrive who isn't even required to assist?

You carry if you feel the need to carry. Unjust laws are meant to be broken. I won't look down at ANY person who decides to Constitutional Carry as that is your inalienable RIGHT. In this day and age, you can be killed for so little as your cell phone (as someone I know was).

Protect yourself and your family...always.
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  #53  
Old 03-25-2014, 7:51 AM
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Almost all of us here are law abiding citizens, and do not want to risk jail, but lets not forget that many of the significant changes that have happened in history have resulted in someone being willing to be jailed (or worse) for the cause that they believed in.

I will name a few, but it might be fun to add to the list.

Jesus
Founding Fathers
Ghandi
Mandella
Rosa Parks

Where would we be if not for theses and others who were willing to give up everything for their principals?
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  #54  
Old 03-25-2014, 7:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojournertruth View Post
if you walk around in fear because you have no gun on you then just go live in a remote area stay away from people and smear yourself with camo paint and enjoy the satisfaction that "they" will never get you. mission accomplished.

If your life is all about "not getting killed" then thats they way to go
You should go away.
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  #55  
Old 03-25-2014, 8:26 AM
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Jury Nullification
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  #56  
Old 03-25-2014, 8:53 AM
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Like the Gambler says, "you got to know when to hold 'um, know when to fold 'um".

With the current overcrowding and future release of thousands of felons here in California, there is not much risk of jail time. Most likely probation and loss of gun rights.

The question remains: Are YOU a gambler?
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  #57  
Old 03-25-2014, 8:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Comparing a speeding to ticket to illegally carrying concealed is two totally different things. Comparing apples and monkeys.
Not really. They're both victimless crimes.
Comparing the punishment for those particular crimes is like comparing apples and monkeys.
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  #58  
Old 03-25-2014, 1:11 PM
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Originally Posted by anthonyca View Post
For all the people who carry a knife, how many hours a week do you train with knife experts? If you have never done it, you need to. You will be humbled when he takes your knife from you.
Oh c'mon.....one can disarm a person with a gun as well.
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  #59  
Old 03-25-2014, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Noggles View Post
The Unitd States Constitution with appurtenant amendments is the only "permit" you need.
Regrettably, that has not been the case since governments got the idea they could license such things.

To paraphrase, 'Now we are engaged in a great Civil Rights war in the courts, testing whether that notion should long endure'.

Folks are going to do what they feel is the right thing to do.

But it is a condition of membership at Calguns that one does not advocate illegal activities. So far, this thread is free of that error.
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  #60  
Old 03-25-2014, 3:47 PM
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Not going to lie, I've done it on a few occasions when making cash deals off craigslist. The gun laws are pretty unreasonable when it comes to someone carrying for a specific circumstance as such. I feel if you are carrying over $1,000 in cash for a legitimate business purpose, then you should be free to protect yourself. I'm not going to go through the trouble of the CCW process in California if I'm only going to have this need once a year or so on average.

Usually my set up for this scenario is a J-frame in the pocket holster and I take my friend with his Sig Sauer P238. I've heard too many stories, and had two friends rolled in craigslist deals gone awry to not carry. Also I know how to flex my rights and refuse searches, and as a judicious person I would gladly take the illegal carry charge than get my head kicked in by Jorge over a couple grand.
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  #61  
Old 03-25-2014, 3:49 PM
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Originally Posted by anthonyca View Post
One is a God given and constitutionaly enumerated right, the other is not.

That said, I don't carry illegally and I read so much about knife laws and peperspray that I know that most people carrying a knife of peperspray are breaking some law or ordinance in this state.

For all the people who carry a knife, how many hours a week do you train with knife experts? If you have never done it, you need to. You will be humbled when he takes your knife from you.
God has nothing to do with it, and is absolutely useless in a discussion of legalities.
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  #62  
Old 03-25-2014, 3:53 PM
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If I believe the risks are real, I will carry.

something along the lines of:

I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
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  #63  
Old 03-25-2014, 4:04 PM
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Unless you frequently put yourself in harms way, are a hothead, and or hang out in seedy bars, your chances are extremely low that you would need to carry ccw illegally. I also suggest pepper spray, a knife or a taser.
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  #64  
Old 03-25-2014, 4:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ChuckDizzle View Post
God has nothing to do with it, and is absolutely useless in a discussion of legalities.
Read the Declaration of Independence. Your creator, God is a euphemism for "creator". Your rights come from your being a free human, at least that is what the founding fathers believed.

We are so far off base with "legalities" that most people have lost respect for the law.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?
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  #65  
Old 03-25-2014, 4:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Corsair415 View Post
I would vote to acquit anyone who used an illegally concealed weapon for reasonable self defense of all charges related to the incident.
Problem is people like you don't end up on the jury.
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  #66  
Old 03-25-2014, 4:43 PM
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Originally Posted by PlumDrumnGun View Post
A responsible firearm owner must do things according to the law, or you will ruin it for everyone else. It's hard enough to keep the media from trash talking guns constantly as it is. Last thing we need is legal owners breaking the law and screwing it up. One news story like that could push things over the edge...! Use your brain man!
well said
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  #67  
Old 03-25-2014, 4:46 PM
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Today in CA it is illegal to Open Carry a loaded firearm. It is also illegal to Conceal Carry, (unless you have a permit)...
IMHO, in CA ALL forms of carry being unavailable is unconstitutional, therefore making your CHOICE of carry Concealed...permit or not.
I do think that if you were caught, AFTER being denied a permit would be more defensible, as you can NOT deny a Constitutional Right...especially when that right is specifically written to LIMIT government.
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  #68  
Old 03-25-2014, 4:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Beelzy View Post
Oh c'mon.....one can disarm a person with a gun as well.
I never said someone can't disarm a person with a gun.

A gun is so much easier to use than a knife. The gun is the great equalizer, a 90lb woman with the right mindset and some training and practice can have a good chance against anyone if there is enough distance. Even if she is tackled, if she can get to the gun, she could have a chance unless she is just knocked out. It depends on what the thug wants, rape, murder, beating, robbery, they are all different.

Have you ever trained with a knife expert? It is very humbling. He may get cut, but he WILL take your knife from you.

Most thugs prey on the weak and are not physically gifted or well trained. Sometimes there is one who knows what he is doing. My point is that a knife is not as easy to use as people think. Where do you attack? How? How do you take a knife from someone?

Being proficient with a knife takes years. My definition of proficient is probably different than the average person though.

A knife is better than nothing in most instances, unless you come up against someone who knows how to take it away. Hint, many Filipinos are great at this. I am not Filipino but I learn from them, this is their culture.

After all that, a knife is no gun. Nothing else is as good as a gun when your life is on the line. Nothing else has the equalization factor.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?
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Old 03-25-2014, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by anthonyca View Post
Read the Declaration of Independence. Your creator, God is a euphemism for "creator". Your rights come from your being a free human, at least that is what the founding fathers believed.

We are so far off base with "legalities" that most people have lost respect for the law.


Declaration of Independence has zero to do with what is legal or not in the U.S.

The Declaration of Independence was a propaganda piece declaring war, it has nothing to do with the laws in place today and never will.

This is why our democracy is in trouble.
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Old 03-25-2014, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ChuckDizzle View Post


Declaration of Independence has zero to do with what is legal or not in the U.S.

The Declaration of Independence was a propaganda piece declaring war, it has nothing to do with the laws in place today and never will.

This is why our democracy is in trouble.
Someone mentioned the difference between speeding and the 2nd amendment. I gave an answer.

The Declaration of Independence is an insight into how our founders thought. Read the Federalist papers and their other non official writings.

We are not a democracy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?
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  #71  
Old 03-25-2014, 5:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ChuckDizzle View Post
God has nothing to do with it, and is absolutely useless in a discussion of legalities.
"God given" right or "natural" right. You knew what he meant. Picking at his choice of words doesn't add to the discussion.

My two cents to the OP; I recommend against breaking the law but I would also never rat you out or vote to convict you.

Keep in mind that the jury would likely be cherry picked to avoid you having any pro 2A folk in it.
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  #72  
Old 03-25-2014, 5:20 PM
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Why carry illegally? Just walk in, fill out some paperwork, get your photo taken, and pay the $50. I got my CPL license in 2 weeks
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Old 03-25-2014, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by vintagearms View Post
Unless you frequently put yourself in harms way, are a hothead, and or hang out in seedy bars, your chances are extremely low that you would need to carry ccw illegally. I also suggest pepper spray, a knife or a taser.
Some of us have jobs where we have to go to the work. Tow truck drivers, HVAC techs, plumbers, you get the picture.

I have been in some crazy bad places at some strange hours. I don't drink and haven't been to a seedy bar in over 10 years. The worst places I have ever been have been for work.

Every once in a while, actually more often than that, the thugs come to a nice area. After all, that is where the money is.

Of course I could get a different job. I think I know how to handle myself. I have not had problems even the few times I have worked in some areas that most people think only exist in movies, but the odds are that one day it will happen.

I posted a story about my father almost being beaten to death and getting shot for helping a cop who was being beaten by a perp. My dad was a pretty good boxer and was well known in his day and his cousin trained some world contenders. I can bet that that he was in better shape and could fight better than 99% of people out there. After that happened I asked him what would have helped him out of that, he didn't say a cop, a knife, pepper spray. He said a gun.
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I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?
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Old 03-25-2014, 5:58 PM
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Unless you frequently put yourself in harms way, are a hothead, and or hang out in seedy bars, your chances are extremely low that you would need to carry ccw illegally. I also suggest pepper spray, a knife or a taser.
This is the same logic that's used to prevent people from getting their CCW in California in the first place.
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The chuckleheaded tinfoil-asshatter racist (yes! that's a couple of names and a label!)
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Old 03-25-2014, 6:09 PM
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Comparing a speeding to ticket to illegally carrying concealed is two totally different things. Comparing apples and monkeys.
Guess what, everyone reading this is some type of 'criminal' in california. My point was, don't throw that word from a glass house.

It actually is a poor comparison because if I carry without a permit I hurt no one and possibly provide a societal benefit, when I speed I may be endangering others.

Let me just head another argument off, how is peacefully carrying a concealed firearm endangering anyone?
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Last edited by SanPedroShooter; 03-25-2014 at 6:22 PM..
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Old 03-25-2014, 6:25 PM
ChuckDizzle ChuckDizzle is offline
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Someone mentioned the difference between speeding and the 2nd amendment. I gave an answer.

The Declaration of Independence is an insight into how our founders thought. Read the Federalist papers and their other non official writings.

We are not a democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

Yes, we most certainly live in a democracy, no matter how badly your Republican Party desires want you to say it isn't true. We have a representative republic style of democracy, but nevertheless it is still a democracy.

Stop name dropping the federalist papers like you have actually read them and understand them in correct context. I have actually read them and understand them in the correct context, this took many hours of my life and a significant investment in the form of student loans.

Legislative intent is, and always will take a back seat to the clear letter of the law. I suggest you read McDonald v. Chicago in its entirety. This will serve three purposes, you will be up to speed on the most recent developments of constitutional law regarding the 2nd Amendment, you will notice the conspicuous absence of any factoring of a deity in the court's reasoning, and third you will begin to understand the problem with citing legislative intent in regards to SCOTUS reasoning on constitutional issues.

The Bill of Rights is something made up by a bunch men, God had nothing to do with it. In fact, we know the guys who wrote it. If they were God given rights then why did it take God something like a million years for them to finally be bestowed and written down? Then again the kings in Europe who would have never let their people speak freely, or exercise their own religion also claimed to have mandate from God.
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Old 03-25-2014, 6:28 PM
ChuckDizzle ChuckDizzle is offline
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"God given" right or "natural" right. You knew what he meant. Picking at his choice of words doesn't add to the discussion.
The premise that you can carry around a gun simply because you think God has given you that right not only doesn't add to the discussion, it detracts from it.

But hey, if you want to continuing losing ground to the people who want to ban firearms because you willingly portray yourself as an irrational backwoods Bible thumping hillbilly, by all means continue to make yourself an easy target.
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Old 03-25-2014, 6:52 PM
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All men have the natural, or god given right to self defense and self determination.
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Old 03-25-2014, 7:12 PM
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The founders believed that govt cannot give rights ! If govt is the source of rights they are not rights but privedges that can revoked by those in power !

Driving is a perfect example ! It's not your right to drive a car, but a privilege granted to you by the state . It can be revoked quite easily too .

Compare that with the language of American rights ! ...endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights....!

I agree that the only permit required is US citisenship .
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Old 03-25-2014, 8:54 PM
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...endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights....!

I agree that the only permit required is US citisenship .
How about atheists who claim that neither god nor a creator exists?

How about permanent residents with a green card?

Using your logic, they don't need have gun rights (although the religious US citizen might, out of the goodness of their hearts, grant them such right) ? Do you want that to be the result of your argument ?
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