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  #1  
Old 03-24-2014, 2:41 PM
Wallabing Wallabing is offline
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Default Carrying illegally

Lets say that even under the Insurmountable fear of getting arrested, spending jail time for a significant amount of time, and having their life ruined...

Lets say that the person in question makes the ultimate decision to carry illegally anyway, not because he is a lowlife thug, nor a drug dealer, pimp etc...
But because at the end of the day he decided that he wanted to be alive and have the ability to continue seeing and being with his family.

How are we to judge him? Treat and think of him no better than a gangbanger down the street carrying a gun? Lash out at him and single him out, disavow him from society regardless of his morals and personality and simply throw him and rot in jail? By doing this we have become no better than the liberals.

And from what I can see, we will all sit here and do nothing and let it happen.

What purpose is our lives if we cant even defend it? Live day to day with the thought that we could one day be beaten and killed, and have our loved ones lives be taken from us and do nothing about it? How is that freedom in America?

It bears me that we exist in a world where we live at the mercy of evil people, stupid people, and jealous people who down the line dont care about anyone but themselves and their moral ego.
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  #2  
Old 03-24-2014, 3:03 PM
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How we judge him is irrelevant. It is how the Courts judge him, and how he accepts the ramifications if he is caught. Don't do illegal **** if you are going to whine and moan if you are caught.
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Old 03-24-2014, 3:05 PM
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If youre considering it dont. It is a misdemeanor for the first offense but you will never get a license after that first offense. The second is a felony and you lose your guns for life. In both cases you will probably be lucky to not get shot by LE, will spend lots of money defending yourself and you may risk seeing the inside of a jail.

Take some self defense classes and learn how to spot and avoid trouble as well as how to be psychologically prepared to deal with a life threatening situation. Get over to the Legal To Carry forum and find out how to get the ball rolling.
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  #4  
Old 03-24-2014, 3:05 PM
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I understand and share your sentiment.

But you must also remember: If you get caught carrying illegally, they will use it to vilify you, to ruin your life, to MAKE YOU INTO A CRIMINAL.

Because you see, we live in THE BIGGEST POLICE STATE IN THE WORLD. The prisons must be kept full to keep the corporations that own them in the profits. The corporations legally own our political system through unlimited campaign contributions. Anything that threatens them will be crushed by the government jackboots (police, DEA, ATF, FBI, NSA, etc).

Keep your feelings secret, and wait for the correct time for action. Play their little bureaucratic game, and stay off the radar.
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Old 03-24-2014, 3:11 PM
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This!
Well said Sir!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterb View Post
I understand and share your sentiment.

But you must also remember: If you get caught carrying illegally, they will use it to vilify you, to ruin your life, to MAKE YOU INTO A CRIMINAL.

Because you see, we live in THE BIGGEST POLICE STATE IN THE WORLD. The prisons must be kept full to keep the corporations that own them in the profits. The corporations legally own our political system through unlimited campaign contributions. Anything that threatens them will be crushed by the government jackboots (police, DEA, ATF, FBI, NSA, etc).

Keep your feelings secret, and wait for the correct time for action. Play their little bureaucratic game, and stay off the radar.
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Old 03-24-2014, 3:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallabing View Post
How are we to judge him? .
We, no not we, the police and the courts. They will treat him just like the criminal he is.
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  #7  
Old 03-24-2014, 3:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterb View Post
I understand and share your sentiment.

But you must also remember: If you get caught carrying illegally, they will use it to vilify you, to ruin your life, to MAKE YOU INTO A CRIMINAL.

Because you see, we live in THE BIGGEST POLICE STATE IN THE WORLD. The prisons must be kept full to keep the corporations that own them in the profits. The corporations legally own our political system through unlimited campaign contributions. Anything that threatens them will be crushed by the government jackboots (police, DEA, ATF, FBI, NSA, etc).

Keep your feelings secret, and wait for the correct time for action. Play their little bureaucratic game, and stay off the radar.
I completely agree with you. But I have spoken with LEOs from time to time (mostly from riding motorcycles and friends) but they all have told me that if I were to tell the officer up front that I have something they wouldn't care. I am also told by some that you might consider not saying anything. If you are simply speeding they are not going to search your car. But if you are swerving be prepared to get out and preform a DUI check. Still with all of that said I am going to wait for my CCW and not chance anything.
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  #8  
Old 03-24-2014, 3:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterb View Post
I understand and share your sentiment.

But you must also remember: If you get caught carrying illegally, they will use it to vilify you, to ruin your life, to MAKE YOU INTO A CRIMINAL.

Because you see, we live in THE BIGGEST POLICE STATE IN THE WORLD. The prisons must be kept full to keep the corporations that own them in the profits. The corporations legally own our political system through unlimited campaign contributions. Anything that threatens them will be crushed by the government jackboots (police, DEA, ATF, FBI, NSA, etc).

Keep your feelings secret, and wait for the correct time for action. Play their little bureaucratic game, and stay off the radar.
Sad as it is, it is the law, like it or not, no reason to ruin your future.
Move to Arizona, when I go back home I grin ear to ear seeing people open carry, does my heart GOOD......
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  #9  
Old 03-24-2014, 3:55 PM
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I would be really interested to see a case where a guy carrying illegally stops some sort of obvious and undeniable mass shooting...

It would be interesting to watch how both sides handle it in the media...
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  #10  
Old 03-24-2014, 4:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConcealedKalifornia View Post
I would be really interested to see a case where a guy carrying illegally stops some sort of obvious and undeniable mass shooting...

It would be interesting to watch how both sides handle it in the media...
There have been instances in the past involving variations of this type of scenario.

One of which happen in NYC in 1984.
1. Person illegally conceal carrying stopped robbery on subway by shooting the four criminals committing the robbery.
2. Was arrested and jailed.
3. Charged with attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon and illegal concealed carry of an unregistered firearm.
4. Was only found guilty of illegal concealed carry of an unregistered firearm.
5. Sentenced to 1 year in prison.
6. Criminals he shot filed civil lawsuit and won. They were awarded $43 million in damages.
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  #11  
Old 03-24-2014, 4:58 PM
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I would vote to acquit anyone who used an illegally concealed weapon for reasonable self defense of all charges related to the incident.
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  #12  
Old 03-24-2014, 5:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
There have been instances in the past involving variations of this type of scenario.

One of which happen in NYC in 1984.
1. Person illegally conceal carrying stopped robbery on subway by shooting the four criminals committing the robbery.
2. Was arrested and jailed.
3. Charged with attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon and illegal concealed carry of an unregistered firearm.
4. Was only found guilty of illegal concealed carry of an unregistered firearm.
5. Sentenced to 1 year in prison.
6. Criminals he shot filed civil lawsuit and won. They were awarded $43 million in damages.
Ouch!
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  #13  
Old 03-24-2014, 5:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Toro View Post
If youre considering it dont. It is a misdemeanor for the first offense but you will never get a license after that first offense. The second is a felony and you lose your guns for life. In both cases you will probably be lucky to not get shot by LE, will spend lots of money defending yourself and you may risk seeing the inside of a jail.

Take some self defense classes and learn how to spot and avoid trouble as well as how to be psychologically prepared to deal with a life threatening situation. Get over to the Legal To Carry forum and find out how to get the ball rolling.
El Toro,

We should also clarify that a first offense is a felony if the weapon is not registered to the offender. It's only a misdemeanor is the weapon is registered to the offender.
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  #14  
Old 03-24-2014, 5:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
There have been instances in the past involving variations of this type of scenario.

One of which happen in NYC in 1984.
1. Person illegally conceal carrying stopped robbery on subway by shooting the four criminals committing the robbery.
2. Was arrested and jailed.
3. Charged with attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon and illegal concealed carry of an unregistered firearm.
4. Was only found guilty of illegal concealed carry of an unregistered firearm.
5. Sentenced to 1 year in prison.
6. Criminals he shot filed civil lawsuit and won. They were awarded $43 million in damages.
Bernhard Goetz? I remember my dad all up in arms about this.

Back then NYC was a cesspool of crime, this guy stood up for himself and was punished accordingly by the NYC Fascists.

New York makes California look like a free state....almost....
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  #15  
Old 03-24-2014, 5:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgstorm View Post
I completely agree with you. But I have spoken with LEOs from time to time (mostly from riding motorcycles and friends) but they all have told me that if I were to tell the officer up front that I have something they wouldn't care. I am also told by some that you might consider not saying anything. If you are simply speeding they are not going to search your car. But if you are swerving be prepared to get out and preform a DUI check. Still with all of that said I am going to wait for my CCW and not chance anything.
I believe you, but I cannot imagine having contact with LAPD, telling them up front that I am carrying concealed, answering "no" when they ask if I have an LTC, and not getting proned out and locked up. They would "care" and I'd be in deep s**t.
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  #16  
Old 03-24-2014, 5:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
There have been instances in the past involving variations of this type of scenario.

One of which happen in NYC in 1984.
1. Person illegally conceal carrying stopped robbery on subway by shooting the four criminals committing the robbery.
2. Was arrested and jailed.
3. Charged with attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon and illegal concealed carry of an unregistered firearm.
4. Was only found guilty of illegal concealed carry of an unregistered firearm.
5. Sentenced to 1 year in prison.
6. Criminals he shot filed civil lawsuit and won. They were awarded $43 million in damages.
This case made me sick. What he did was defend the victims and himself, was sent to jail for doing the right thing in the wrong state.
Will our justice system EVER get it right?
I KNOW, we have to follow the laws, but can't we be sensible?
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  #17  
Old 03-24-2014, 5:51 PM
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Well I don't know exactly the purpose of this thread.

I don't think you can make much of a case that "we" as the gun owning community judge or "lash out" against people who illegally carry. I suppose probably because if they are illegally carrying and it's concealed, how the hell are we to know about it. Well, unless they get caught doing something else they probably shouldn't while they are carrying.

I believe in constitutional carry, so as far as I'm concerned, the fact that you are a citizen of the US is good cause enough to carry a weapon to protect yourself or your family. That beings said, we don't live in a society that shares these valued and regardless of the philosophical disagreement we have over the issue, it doesn't change the real-world consequences to making a decision that falls outside the law. There are plenty of laws that individuals do not agree with, but disagreement does not in and of itself make the law and the repercussions any less real.

Last edited by omgwtfbbq; 03-24-2014 at 5:53 PM..
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  #18  
Old 03-24-2014, 6:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighLander51 View Post
We, no not we, the police and the courts. They will treat him just like the criminal he is.
You know some people don't really have much of a choice, well either carry or be killed. If the only law they break is illegally carrying a gun, and the reason is threats upon their life and the fact they don't live in the nicest of neighborhoods.
I wouldn't consider that person a criminal. I would consider that person a victim of the overbering nanny state that refuses the law abiding citizens their natural right to self defense.
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Old 03-24-2014, 6:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighLander51 View Post
We, no not we, the police and the courts. They will treat him just like the criminal he is.
lol wut? Did you break the speed limit today?

Get a grip man.
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Old 03-24-2014, 6:08 PM
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I personally don't have a problem with an otherwise law-abiding citizen carrying without a permit. But it doesn't matter what I think. It depends on the cop that finds out that you don't have a permit. Your chances are usually around 50/50 that you won't be cuffed and stuffed.
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Old 03-24-2014, 6:14 PM
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Good luck defending yourself with a 2 inch folder while 3 thugs with pistols rob you and rape your wife.
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Old 03-24-2014, 6:18 PM
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I used to carry concealed and loaded in my vehicle, but I have a few misdemeanors, and If caught doing anything again, I will be in serious trouble. do not want to go to prison! I know many who carry concealed for their own protection, which seems necessary, but I want to stay out of the legal system, so I leave the weapons at home in the safe.
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Old 03-24-2014, 6:19 PM
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I personally do not consider a law abiding citizen who carries without license a bad person. Its a right we should have that is forcefully deprived from us as human beings.
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Old 03-24-2014, 6:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaymz View Post
I personally don't have a problem with an otherwise law-abiding citizen carrying without a permit. But it doesn't matter what I think. It depends on the cop that finds out that you don't have a permit. Your chances are usually around 50/50 that you won't be cuffed and stuffed.
I would bet its almost 100 percent youre screwed if caught. Even a pro 2a LEO will arrest you because he may lose his job if he lets you go.
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Old 03-24-2014, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Corsair415 View Post
I would vote to acquit anyone who used an illegally concealed weapon for reasonable self defense of all charges related to the incident.
not that I would ever get the chance to be on such a jury, but, I would not vote to convict ANY law abiding citizen, who happened to get busted trying to protect themselves

I won't convict someone due to a law I don't believe is just...that's just me

I doubt I'd ever get a seating on such a case
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Old 03-24-2014, 6:27 PM
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Throwing another twist to this - what if the person had applied for a CCW and was denied for lack of "good cause," and then decided to carry anyway? I'd say you should at least try to get a CCW, even if you know the chances are 99.99% that you will be denied - at least you tried to carry legal.

If someone did that and I was on the jury for that trial, I would seriously consider jury nullification.
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Old 03-24-2014, 6:38 PM
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A responsible firearm owner must do things according to the law, or you will ruin it for everyone else. It's hard enough to keep the media from trash talking guns constantly as it is. Last thing we need is legal owners breaking the law and screwing it up. One news story like that could push things over the edge...! Use your brain man!
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Old 03-24-2014, 6:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlumDrumnGun View Post
A responsible firearm owner must do things according to the law, or you will ruin it for everyone else. It's hard enough to keep the media from trash talking guns constantly as it is. Last thing we need is legal owners breaking the law and screwing it up. One news story like that could push things over the edge...! Use your brain man!
You must hand in all of your firearms that are black, hold more than one round, or can be fired without manipulation of the action.

Give them in, because if not, you'll screw it up for us when we get this law overturned in 20 years.
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Old 03-24-2014, 6:46 PM
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[QUOTE=El Toro;13718447]If youre considering it dont. It is a misdemeanor for the first offense but you will never get a license after that first offense. Not true..i been approved for my license..
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Old 03-24-2014, 6:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ConcealedKalifornia View Post
I would be really interested to see a case where a guy carrying illegally stops some sort of obvious and undeniable mass shooting...
Well, it wasn't a mass shooting, but the guy was carrying illegally.

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Old 03-24-2014, 7:08 PM
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Originally Posted by TeddyBallgame View Post
not that I would ever get the chance to be on such a jury, but, I would not vote to convict ANY law abiding citizen, who happened to get busted trying to protect themselves

I won't convict someone due to a law I don't believe is just...that's just me

I doubt I'd ever get a seating on such a case
Okay I agree. What about this, the person in question is a gang banger (how you'd ever find out, I don't know) but lets just say this guy got caught carrying a firearm without a permit. And nothing else.

Do you still acquit?

My gut tells me if I nullify for one, it has to be for all.
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Old 03-24-2014, 7:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidenpeacemaker View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Toro View Post
If youre considering it dont. It is a misdemeanor for the first offense but you will never get a license after that first offense.
Not true..i been approved for my license..
Well in general, that particular misdemeanor would be enough for most issuing agencies to deny on Good Moral Character. You were fortunate.
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Old 03-24-2014, 8:00 PM
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To begin with, I don't judge. My personal opinion doesn't matter at all. Unless I happen to be on a jury, in which case I will vote to uphold the law, whatever the law might be.

The problem with the OP's situation is that there is an extremely wide range of possible punishment if caught. One one hand, if the pistol isn't registered to the person carrying, it is a felony, with a maximum sentence of somewhere between 1 and 10 years in state prison. Actually, it can be worse: if a person carrying acts in a really dumb fashion, and threatens LEOs with the gun, it can easily turn into "suicide by cop". On the other hand, there is some statistics on the average penalty for people arrested for illegal concealed carry (I think the data was gathered in San Francisco, absolutely not a pro-gun city, by some newspaper). I think the result was that unless concealed carry is used as an add-on to more serious crimes (usually drug crimes, or felon in possession), it is not charged at all. So the typical scenario for an otherwise law-abiding person is that they are arrested, the gun is confiscated, and then charges are dropped.
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Old 03-24-2014, 8:18 PM
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I don't really care how that person carry, legally or not and for whatever reasons. It's none of my business, as long as he/she doesn't use the gun against me.
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Old 03-24-2014, 8:30 PM
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The only way I'd carry without a license if my life was in danger, and I just couldnt remove myself from the environment(after making detailed complaints to my local LEA), but I would make sure I am fully aware of the consequences of my behavior.

And in todays environment, at least in our lovely state, should I be unfortunate enough to use a firearm, I could expect my local tarded media to paint me as yet another virgilante, regardless of the facts. Most importantly, local DA could be expected to go full retard with it. They wouldnt disappoint, I am sure.

This is my long winded way of saying "Dont do the crime if you cant do the time"
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  #36  
Old 03-24-2014, 8:53 PM
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ElDub1950 ElDub1950 is offline
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Man, that's a ton o' drama

No one should break the law but calm down, it's a misdemeanor for gosh sakes. It's a fine not a public flogging.

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Lets say that even under the Insurmountable fear of getting arrested, spending jail time for a significant amount of time, and having their life ruined...

Lets say that the person in question makes the ultimate decision to carry illegally anyway, not because he is a lowlife thug, nor a drug dealer, pimp etc...
But because at the end of the day he decided that he wanted to be alive and have the ability to continue seeing and being with his family.

How are we to judge him? Treat and think of him no better than a gangbanger down the street carrying a gun? Lash out at him and single him out, disavow him from society regardless of his morals and personality and simply throw him and rot in jail? By doing this we have become no better than the liberals.

And from what I can see, we will all sit here and do nothing and let it happen.

What purpose is our lives if we cant even defend it? Live day to day with the thought that we could one day be beaten and killed, and have our loved ones lives be taken from us and do nothing about it? How is that freedom in America?

It bears me that we exist in a world where we live at the mercy of evil people, stupid people, and jealous people who down the line dont care about anyone but themselves and their moral ego.
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  #37  
Old 03-24-2014, 8:54 PM
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For the 15 years I worked for the PD, I legally carried off duty, cannot recall ever getting "questioned" or "looked at odd", unless you are getting searched for something, it is concealed carry and the odds of getting caught are slim.

If you live in craptown and have a family you want to protect, then it might be worth the risk....
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  #38  
Old 03-24-2014, 8:57 PM
dragonboy221 dragonboy221 is offline
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Do it at your own risk mate. Talk to a lawyer first

Thomas Jefferson once said,

"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."


Like those Connecticut gun owners who refused to register. Good for them. F**k the government
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  #39  
Old 03-24-2014, 9:03 PM
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I've thought about this as well. Determined it's better to apply for a license and carry a knife.

Or, several knives.
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Old 03-24-2014, 9:06 PM
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Saying f the government is not going to do you any favors but paint gun owners as anarchist which we are not. We obeys laws...mostly. Yes we may not agree on gun laws but a government is still and always be needed to maintain social order...but it should be limited and we should have the righ to defend ourselves from those who will disregard the law.
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