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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #41  
Old 03-02-2014, 3:49 PM
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Wait until people find out there are alternatives to the M1A and the AR-15. Modern 308 rifles that are ergonomic, accurate and can be adjusted to shoot with minimal recoil. All the BOOM, range and hard impact without the weight or shoulder pain.

Now if someone could just figure out a way to reduce the felt recoil on the wallet when shooting 308.
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  #42  
Old 03-02-2014, 4:08 PM
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No real mention of AR-10 in this thread. Anybody who likes the AR platform, but the punch and sound of a 30 cal battle rifle need not look any further than the AR-10 in 7.62x51. Good stuff there.
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  #43  
Old 03-02-2014, 5:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H2O MAN View Post
Accurizing your M14/M1A is rather easy and straight forward.

A tight fitting stock, shimmed gas system, decent ammunition and a really nice NM trigger job are good things to do.
Resist scoping your M1A/M14 rifle for as long as possible, learn to shoot well with the outstanding iron sights first.


.
Accurizing the M14 might be straight-forward, but actually doing it and maintaining the accuracy isn't a simple task.

Getting a tight fitting stock usually means milling out the stock for your given action, and unless you've got your own milling capabilities, you're sending that action to McMillan or whomever.

Either way, you also need to bed the action, and bedding needs to be redone regularly.

Changing the barrel on an M14 isn't as easy as the AR, and requires similar tooling as any other typical bolt gun with regards to chamber reaming and finishing. Then you get to re-bed, again.

The AR definitely takes a lot of the gunsmithing burden out of competitive service rifle.
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  #44  
Old 03-02-2014, 5:38 PM
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Since getting my LRB I hardly ever shoot my AR's anymore. Since getting my Garands, I hardly ever shoot my LRB anymore.
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  #45  
Old 03-02-2014, 5:49 PM
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Love both but I'm a fan of the .308 a tad more. Such a fun round to shoot.
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  #46  
Old 03-02-2014, 6:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallabing View Post
I spent all day shooting 80 rounds from a friends M1A. It was nice and all.

After that, I picked up my AR15 and realized how drastically lighter and more comfortable it was to hold the AR15, quicker to point and aquire, and the recoil of the 223, after shooting 308 felt like nothing.

I realized what I took for granted, I feel right at home with my AR15 today, and this only reinforces it.
We are talking apples to oranges here. If the comparison was an AR-10 and a M1A, that's more like it. I have all three platforms and enjoy all three pretty much the same.
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  #47  
Old 03-02-2014, 6:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocabj View Post
Accurizing the M14 might be straight-forward, but actually doing it and maintaining the accuracy isn't a simple task.

Getting a tight fitting stock usually means milling out the stock for your given action, and unless you've got your own milling capabilities, you're sending that action to McMillan or whomever.

Either way, you also need to bed the action, and bedding needs to be redone regularly.

Changing the barrel on an M14 isn't as easy as the AR, and requires similar tooling as any other typical bolt gun with regards to chamber reaming and finishing. Then you get to re-bed, again.


Much has changed over the last decade or so, the SAGE EBR, JAE and other modern chassis systems eliminate the need for traditional bedding, so that once valid point is nullified. Unless you are shooting many, many, many rounds in matches or something like that you should never ever have to worry about changing out a barrel. On the other hand, if you can afford to shoot enough rounds to wear out a barrel, then you should also be able to afford a barrel swap.
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  #48  
Old 03-02-2014, 6:21 PM
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I love both
I agree.

But is is usually cheaper to shoot the 5.56.
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  #49  
Old 03-02-2014, 6:37 PM
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I like ARs, they are light and good fun, particularly if you're shooting fairly casually. But, personally, I've always preferred a weapon with a bit more "oomph". The .308 is a nice step up, but why not go for the full-fat rifles; 30-06, 7.62x54r (essentially the same as the 30-06 but made by communists and smells of cosmoline), 7mm Mauser, et cetera.

Or, if you're like me, a 12 gauge loaded with slugs is a fine thing indeed! Anywho back to OPs point.

I get wanting a more comfortable, quicker rifle. Everyone wants that (well, save politicians) and I get shooting better with the lesser more ergonomic weapon but you have to ask yourself what they give up, and what you lose. Each is a tool and if applied correctly will excel.

What kind of shooting do you intend to do with your weapon? That's what's more important.





Also to those who talk about which rifle a G.I. wants to lug around, all the Vietnam vets that I have personally spoken with preferred the M14 by miles
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  #50  
Old 03-02-2014, 6:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosereader View Post




Also to those who talk about which rifle a G.I. wants to lug around, all the
Vietnam vets that I have personally spoken with preferred the M14 by miles
This is a shared experience.
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  #51  
Old 03-02-2014, 7:14 PM
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Originally Posted by H2O MAN View Post
Much has changed over the last decade or so, the SAGE EBR, JAE and other modern chassis systems eliminate the need for traditional bedding, so that once valid point is nullified. Unless you are shooting many, many, many rounds in matches or something like that you should never ever have to worry about changing out a barrel. On the other hand, if you can afford to shoot enough rounds to wear out a barrel, then you should also be able to afford a barrel swap.

Folks who still use the 30 cal platform for highpower/service rifle, still use the tight fitting stock and steel bedding approach.

Barrels are replaced around 4k rounds.

Compared to 30 cal, AR platform for highpower/service rifle is easier as well as cost effective to maintain and accurize. Reloading ammo is also cheaper.

I use both - helps me shoot better . . .

Last edited by OpenSightsOnly; 03-02-2014 at 7:16 PM.. Reason: spelling
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  #52  
Old 03-02-2014, 7:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H2O MAN View Post
Much has changed over the last decade or so, the SAGE EBR, JAE and other modern chassis systems eliminate the need for traditional bedding, so that once valid point is nullified. Unless you are shooting many, many, many rounds in matches or something like that you should never ever have to worry about changing out a barrel. On the other hand, if you can afford to shoot enough rounds to wear out a barrel, then you should also be able to afford a barrel swap.
All of those chassis systems are illegal for High Power Service Rifle matches. But yes, if you are just using the M14 for non-SR use, the chassis system is a definite improvement over the traditional stocks.

As far as being able to afford a barrel change, that's not the issue. The issue is having to wait the turn around time to get the barrel changed.

It's nice to be able to have spare barrels (or even spare uppers) ready to go for the AR when necessary, rather than having to wait for the gun (M14) to be sent off the gunsmith to get rebarreled.
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  #53  
Old 03-02-2014, 7:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocabj View Post
... yes, if you are just using the M14 for non-SR use, the chassis system is a definite improvement over the traditional stocks.
and non-SR use pretty much assures that the need to re-barrel your M1A/M14 will never arise.
General purpose shooting with proper maintenance should keep your barrel acceptably accurate well beyond the 4000 round mark.
Also, two weeks or so at the M14 armorer shouldn't be a big deal for most of us, because we have other tools in our tool boxes.

Last edited by H2O MAN; 03-02-2014 at 7:47 PM..
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  #54  
Old 03-02-2014, 7:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallabing View Post
I spent all day shooting 80 rounds from a friends M1A. It was nice and all.

After that, I picked up my AR15 and realized how drastically lighter and more comfortable it was to hold the AR15, quicker to point and aquire, and the recoil of the 223, after shooting 308 felt like nothing.

I realized what I took for granted, I feel right at home with my AR15 today, and this only reinforces it.

I agree. I am also very fond of my AKs.
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  #55  
Old 03-02-2014, 7:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocabj View Post
.

As far as being able to afford a barrel change, that's not the issue. The issue is having to wait the turn around time to get the barrel changed.

It's nice to be able to have spare barrels (or even spare uppers) ready to go for the AR when necessary, rather than having to wait for the gun (M14) to be sent off the gunsmith to get rebarreled.
Why do you have to send it off to a gun smith? If moneys not an issue. Its not that hard to re-barrel an M14.
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  #56  
Old 03-02-2014, 8:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TMB 1 View Post
Why do you have to send it off to a gun smith?
If moneys not an issue. Its not that hard to re-barrel an M14.
That's true, and more people are learning to build/service their own M14s
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  #57  
Old 03-02-2014, 8:44 PM
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M1A. When the chips are down, Bring enough gun.
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  #58  
Old 03-02-2014, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
Ocabj makes a good point, if you can shoot a rifle like a garand or m1a accurately offhand or seated then you will shoot an AR even better. If you want to be really frustrated start trying to accurize your M1A.
The last time I shot targets for accuracy with my M1A (Loaded Stainless), I put 4 consecutive shots in a 0.75" group at 200 yards. The two other people who have shot it for accuracy have shot several sub MOA groups with my rifle, several at 0.5 MOA. Accurizing a M1A is simple, shim the gas cylinder or replace it with a unitized one, get the Sadlak TiN piston or polish the one in it, and bed the stock.

The flimsy collapsible stock on a AR just doesn't feel right to me. The sold feel of a M1A/M14 wood stock works for me.

This one is at 100 yards

Last edited by hbogart; 03-02-2014 at 10:27 PM.. Reason: grammar fix
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  #59  
Old 03-02-2014, 10:31 PM
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As was said
they fill different niches,
223 for shorter ranges (400 yds)
multiple opponents,
a 308 for longer shooting,
shooting with authority
and penetration if needed
N
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  #60  
Old 03-03-2014, 1:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosereader View Post
I like ARs, they are light and good fun, particularly if you're shooting fairly casually. But, personally, I've always preferred a weapon with a bit more "oomph". The .308 is a nice step up, but why not go for the full-fat rifles; 30-06, 7.62x54r (essentially the same as the 30-06 but made by communists and smells of cosmoline), 7mm Mauser, et cetera.

Or, if you're like me, a 12 gauge loaded with slugs is a fine thing indeed! Anywho back to OPs point.

I get wanting a more comfortable, quicker rifle. Everyone wants that (well, save politicians) and I get shooting better with the lesser more ergonomic weapon but you have to ask yourself what they give up, and what you lose. Each is a tool and if applied correctly will excel.

What kind of shooting do you intend to do with your weapon? That's what's more important.





Also to those who talk about which rifle a G.I. wants to lug around, all the Vietnam vets that I have personally spoken with preferred the M14 by miles
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Originally Posted by H2O MAN View Post
This is a shared experience.
'06 is 7.62x63

Yeah, my ordinance guy handed me a M16 in '66 it jammed 3 times on the first mag and twice on the second, I took my M14 E2 back and never envied anyone carrying a 16. I know they worked the bugs out of them, but I still don't like 'em.
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Last edited by rivraton; 03-03-2014 at 1:47 AM..
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  #61  
Old 03-03-2014, 1:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallabing View Post
I spent all day shooting 80 rounds from a friends M1A. It was nice and all.

After that, I picked up my AR15 and realized how drastically lighter and more comfortable it was to hold the AR15, quicker to point and aquire, and the recoil of the 223, after shooting 308 felt like nothing.

I realized what I took for granted, I feel right at home with my AR15 today, and this only reinforces it.
The 5.56 is great for CQB and close range.

Not much good beyond 200 yards though -- spray and pray then waste a lot of lead then.

The 7.62 in M1A is accurate out to 600 yards. But on any given day of combat you would be unlikely to shoot more than 20 or 40 rounds if you are aiming carefully with one shot one kill. It is NOT a spray and pray weapon.
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Old 03-03-2014, 1:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rivraton View Post
'06 is 7.62x63

Yeah, my ordinance guy handed me a M16 in '66 it jammed 3 times on the first mag and twice on the second, I took my M14 E2 back and never envied anyone carrying a 16. I know they worked the bugs out of them, but I still don't like 'em.
Exactly.

When I was in, my duty weapon was the Springfield 1911A1.

So I went into Oceanside and bought my own Ruger Mini 14 in case I was ever deployed.

The Mini 14 is a great design for the 5.56 cartridge. Way superior to the AR's in my opinion. And I too never trusted an M-16 either.
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  #63  
Old 03-03-2014, 7:52 AM
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M1a too heavy?

Recoil too strong?

Put the purse down and man up.

All day to shot 80 rounds? I have put that many 30-06 rounds through my 7lb bolt gun in a couple hours.

Last edited by Steve_In_29; 03-03-2014 at 8:10 AM.. Reason: spelling
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  #64  
Old 03-03-2014, 7:53 AM
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........................
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  #65  
Old 03-03-2014, 8:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocabj View Post
Accurizing the M14 might be straight-forward, but actually doing it and maintaining the accuracy isn't a simple task.

Getting a tight fitting stock usually means milling out the stock for your given action, and unless you've got your own milling capabilities, you're sending that action to McMillan or whomever.

Either way, you also need to bed the action, and bedding needs to be redone regularly.

Changing the barrel on an M14 isn't as easy as the AR, and requires similar tooling as any other typical bolt gun with regards to chamber reaming and finishing. Then you get to re-bed, again.

The AR definitely takes a lot of the gunsmithing burden out of competitive service rifle.
Yeap! These threads always separate the people who shoot their rifles from the ones who just argue about them on the internet.
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Old 03-03-2014, 8:43 AM
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Quote:
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These threads always separate the people who shoot their rifles from the ones who just argue about them on the internet.
These threads always separate the people who fail to acknowledge the positive enhancements available
for their rifles from the ones who actually embrace the improvements and shoot their enhanced rifles.
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  #67  
Old 03-03-2014, 8:50 AM
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I like M-16s but everybody and their brother has bought many of them. i am so tired of being bombarded with AR infomercials on TV and print media. It is a very good military rifle. being a civilian now give me a deer rifle with a scope under 1,000 bucks and i am done.
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Old 03-03-2014, 8:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallabing View Post
I spent all day shooting 80 rounds from a friends M1A. It was nice and all.

After that, I picked up my AR15 and realized how drastically lighter and more comfortable it was to hold the AR15, quicker to point and aquire, and the recoil of the 223, after shooting 308 felt like nothing.

I realized what I took for granted, I feel right at home with my AR15 today, and this only reinforces it.
Uh...Duh? For me it has a lot to do with weight and ergonomics. For .308 it's the SCAR 17 for me, light and easy to shoot.

I also like the Mini-14, but not as wells as the more modern designs.
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  #69  
Old 03-03-2014, 9:05 AM
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Originally Posted by H2O MAN View Post
What does NATO surplus, and commercial .308 go for these days?
Haven't grabbed any surplus but the best I have done is .60 cents/ round but I have seen it in the .80-1.00 range.
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Old 03-03-2014, 9:08 AM
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Users of other weapons systems such as the M249, M240B/L, M24, XM2010, XM110, and M107
immediately notice how much lighter and more comfortable the M14 EBR is once they pick it up.
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Old 03-03-2014, 9:12 AM
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A few practice shots for distance adjustments, and I'm usually most accurate on an old mauser (unless your talking optics added)

Was one of my first guns, and the one I used most/know the best. But I do love me some .308.
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Old 03-03-2014, 9:14 AM
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Haven't grabbed any surplus but the best I have done is .60 cents/ round but I have seen it in the .80-1.00 range.
Thank you.
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Old 03-03-2014, 9:35 AM
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Originally Posted by hbogart View Post
The last time I shot targets for accuracy with my M1A (Loaded Stainless), I put 4 consecutive shots in a 0.75" group at 200 yards. The two other people who have shot it for accuracy have shot several sub MOA groups with my rifle, several at 0.5 MOA. Accurizing a M1A is simple, shim the gas cylinder or replace it with a unitized one, get the Sadlak TiN piston or polish the one in it, and bed the stock.

The flimsy collapsible stock on a AR just doesn't feel right to me. The sold feel of a M1A/M14 wood stock works for me.

This one is at 100 yards

Not to be mean, but this looks something like an inch and a half group, not .5moa like you were talking about. Not that your group is bad, because that is some good shooting, but its no half MOA either.
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  #74  
Old 03-03-2014, 9:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallabing View Post
I spent all day shooting 80 rounds from a friends M1A. It was nice and all.

After that, I picked up my AR15 and realized how drastically lighter and more comfortable it was to hold the AR15, quicker to point and aquire, and the recoil of the 223, after shooting 308 felt like nothing.

I realized what I took for granted, I feel right at home with my AR15 today, and this only reinforces it.

AR'& M1A' are both proven solid platforms, stick with what works for ya'.
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Old 03-03-2014, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
Yeap! These threads always separate the people who shoot their rifles from the ones who just argue about them on the internet.
I don't know about that, but they give you an idea who calls for roadside assistance when they get a flat tire.
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  #76  
Old 03-03-2014, 11:15 AM
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The only thing I don't like about the new M1A socom is the FAT front sight post. Other than that, I LOVE M1A's and AR's equally well. They are both fantastic guns in their own right. AR's are probably the most versatile gun in existence arguably, and the M1A is just a wonderful design in every aspect other than the takedown maybe. I'd love to have multiples of both of them, but alas, I am poor these days after surgeries and kids.
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  #77  
Old 03-03-2014, 11:20 AM
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The only thing I don't like about the new M1A socom is the FAT front sight post.
Smith Enterprise has a fix for that, and more...
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  #78  
Old 03-03-2014, 11:23 AM
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80 rds in a day?

I have shot easily over 300 rds with my 7x57 Mauser in that time. This was at the Appleseed clinic. Also, I have sent well over 200+ rds of .30-06 in one morning. I have to admit ... that is a bit too much. The bruise does not go away for at least a week or so.

One of the nice things about the high power rifle is that there is usually a lot more 'meat' in the frame. This means you can use it as a very nice club when you run out of ammo.
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  #79  
Old 03-03-2014, 12:35 PM
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Is that all anyone does on the internet now is talk shyt?

This has been tried and proven time and time again. Weapon platforms have their uses for certain mission criteria and leave it at that. Take an M1A and an AR15 at 50 yards and shoot a target 6 to 10 times in under 2 seconds and see which one has more efficient recoil manangment. AR gauranteed.

Take an AR15 and an M1A at 800 yards both with match grade ammo, see which one you can shoot a tighter grouping on target with 4 shots in under 4 seconds. Probably the AR. Does the M1A have more stopping power? Undoubtably, but that doesnt mean it doesn't have its uses and same for the AR. The OP was simply saying he appreciates the recoil managmenet and weight more so than his M1A. Why the bashing? I thought we're all here for the same thing... Not to talk shyt who can shoot what higher caliber for a longer duration and say oh look at me my balls hang lower than yours..
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Old 03-03-2014, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3thodBombZ View Post
Is that all anyone does on the internet now is talk shyt?

This has been tried and proven time and time again. Weapon platforms have their uses for certain mission criteria and leave it at that. Take an M1A and an AR15 at 50 yards and shoot a target 6 to 10 times in under 2 seconds and see which one has more efficient recoil manangment. AR gauranteed.

Take an AR15 and an M1A at 800 yards both with match grade ammo, see which one you can shoot a tighter grouping on target with 4 shots in under 4 seconds. Probably the AR. Does the M1A have more stopping power? Undoubtably, but that doesnt mean it doesn't have its uses and same for the AR. The OP was simply saying he appreciates the recoil managmenet and weight more so than his M1A. Why the bashing? I thought we're all here for the same thing... Not to talk shyt who can shoot what higher caliber for a longer duration and say oh look at me my balls hang lower than yours..
Beat to death the obvious.

Recoil management is obvious...the AR bullet is anywhere from a third to half the M14 bullet weight. Case is smaller...less powder.

Weight is also an obvious advantage, particularly if you're humping the weapon all over the place.

No bashing here...though the .30 cal does a better job of turning cover into concealment. Again, obviously.

As to the "balls hanging lower thing"...If this bothers you, you might ask your doctor for a referral to someone who can help you work that out.
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