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  #41  
Old 03-01-2014, 9:23 PM
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I'll give it another close look in the morning, maybe take a couple more pics if I'm still worried and post em up. If it looks good, i'll slap a very light coat of JB on the inside, color the outside with black touch up paint and call it day.
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  #42  
Old 03-01-2014, 9:23 PM
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I'm in SoCal, (Right next to Ammo Bros in Ontario).
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  #43  
Old 03-01-2014, 9:29 PM
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get that jb weld jibba jabba out of here
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  #44  
Old 03-01-2014, 9:32 PM
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These are two different scratches. One was caused when you installed the bolt catch roll pin. the other when you installed the trigger. There is no need to bugger up the inside of your lower with JB Weld just touch it up with a Sharpie if it bothers you.
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  #45  
Old 03-01-2014, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syds Grandpa View Post
That's a crack. It's a hair line fracture and your not going to feel it with your finger nail. Take to someone who does non destructive test and have a dye pen done and they'll tell you, That's a crack. Or you could just listen to me. You will be able to feel it with a finger nail after a couple hundred rounds.
Buy billet.
Except that, for the same shape, forged is stronger than billet.
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  #46  
Old 03-01-2014, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
Except that, for the same shape, forged is stronger than billet.

Forging (Near Net Shapes) are prone to inclusions and stress cracks. That's why all forged product for the military requires some sort of NDT (Non Destructive Test). They also react poorly to thermals due to uneven stress induced during the forging process, meaning as your weapon heats up the receivers move.
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  #47  
Old 03-01-2014, 10:47 PM
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I knew someone would open up the Forged vs Billet Pandora's Box...

Syd's Grandpa set the bait and it didn't take long...

FWIW, I'm a fan a forged (wheels, lowers, etc)... yes we could go on for days... but we shouldn't
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  #48  
Old 03-01-2014, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDamned View Post
I knew someone would open up the Forged vs Billet Pandora's Box...

Syd's Grandpa set the bait and it didn't take long...

FWIW, I'm a fan a forged (wheels, lowers, etc)... yes we could go on for days... but we shouldn't

I think I can carry they day for billet quickly. Where is the weak point for receivers? And is a forged product or a 7075 t 651 product going to stand up better in that area. This applies to the 308 platform as well.
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  #49  
Old 03-01-2014, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syds Grandpa View Post
I think I can carry they day for billet quickly. Where is the weak point for receivers? And is a forged product or a 7075 t 651 product going to stand up better in that area. This applies to the 308 platform as well.
this is the part you missed:

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yes we could go on for days... but we shouldn't
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  #50  
Old 03-01-2014, 11:11 PM
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this is the part you missed:
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  #51  
Old 03-01-2014, 11:13 PM
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when the gun fires the buffer smacks in to the back of the tube with transfers all that momentum to the little arch of the rear take down pin
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  #52  
Old 03-02-2014, 12:03 AM
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Next time, put electrical tape around the area before you punch or press the pin in. It prevents these nicks on the outside. Worse case, you jack up the tape with the punch. The job is easier if you have a bolt catch pin punch or a set of starter roll pin punches which holds the pin in place while you try to tap it in.


http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod26484.aspx
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod20640.aspx

Last edited by ShadowX; 03-02-2014 at 12:05 AM..
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  #53  
Old 03-02-2014, 8:22 AM
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Looks like a machining imperfection and a scratch. Should be ok, but take Welchy's advice if you have any questions about it
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  #54  
Old 03-02-2014, 8:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syds Grandpa View Post
I think I can carry they day for billet quickly. Where is the weak point for receivers? And is a forged product or a 7075 t 651 product going to stand up better in that area. This applies to the 308 platform as well.
I'd like to hear it. New topic maybe so this one doesnt get derailed.
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  #55  
Old 03-02-2014, 9:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taladeganite View Post
Looks like a scratch....should be good.
+1 A little scratch is not going to hurt anything, put a couple on the first lower I assembled as well.

On your next assembly invest in a Brownells lower vice block and bolt catch roll pin punch and you'll be able to do a pro job.
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  #56  
Old 03-02-2014, 9:48 AM
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OP after you determine if the line is a crack or just a scratch you should definitely get a better camera.

Fwiw. It looks like a scratch from what I can see from the terrible pics.

Good luck.
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  #57  
Old 03-02-2014, 9:51 AM
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I think your fine. Have your mother in law test fire it. I use a set of lineman pliers with tape on jaws to start the pin.

Last edited by edgerly779; 03-02-2014 at 10:01 AM..
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  #58  
Old 03-02-2014, 10:22 AM
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That inner scratch now extends to the top of the receiver…I think that makes a crack :face palm:

I didn't know lowers were that weak. All I used was a tiny Craftsman mallet with one side of it being plastic and the other side rubber.
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  #59  
Old 03-02-2014, 10:22 AM
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That inner scratch now extends to the top of the receiver…I think that makes a crack :face palm:

I didn't know lowers were that weak. All I used was a tiny Craftsman mallet with one side of it being plastic and the other side rubber.
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  #60  
Old 03-02-2014, 10:42 AM
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Coulda already been there ya just didn't notice or ya just made it worse by bangin' on it.

Try emailing/calling the manufacturer. Perhaps they will do something for ya.
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  #61  
Old 03-02-2014, 10:47 AM
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Yea I guess. Now I'm contemplating just buying another lower and waiting another ten days or just putting a small layer of JB weld over it.
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  #62  
Old 03-02-2014, 10:47 AM
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Bolt catch roll pin installation device.

$2.26 at Home Depot. Paint it black before you use it so it's tacti-lame. Better yet, duracoat it FDE or hydro dip it in Kryptec.
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  #63  
Old 03-02-2014, 10:49 AM
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Looks to be cosmetic IMO
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  #64  
Old 03-02-2014, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newb View Post
Yea I guess. Now I'm contemplating just buying another lower and waiting another ten days or just putting a small layer of JB weld over it.
Seriously? Even if it is cracked at that spot, it's perfectly serviceable.

Highly unlikely it's cracked.

Whatever you do, just don't drop it on carpet. It will cause invisible nano-cracks within the micro-structure of the aluminum alloy and also catastropically disrupt subatomic hadron interactions that you can't see without vacuum, laser-assisted radiography with Cesium 137.

Last edited by 8200rpm; 03-02-2014 at 11:01 AM..
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  #65  
Old 03-02-2014, 11:56 AM
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sharpie works to ease the mind that very moment, but it wont last. first time you clean your rifle, the ink will come off.
Birchwood Casey has an aluminum black touch up.

https://www.birchwoodcasey.com/Refin...-Touch-Up.aspx
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  #66  
Old 03-02-2014, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Newb View Post
Hey guys, so I'm new to the AR world but recently got a lower to start assembling a rifle piece by piece. So while installing my lower parts kit today with the help of this forum and YouTube, I made an error...

...Here's come cell phone, pics. What do you guys think?
I can guarantee you made the error on your with the help of "YouTube" and not "with the help of this forum".

either way looks fine. does it function fine? then its fine.
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  #67  
Old 03-02-2014, 12:18 PM
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maybe if you can get a needle point to cross it and feel if it catches like its cracked might be something to try?
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Old 03-02-2014, 1:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germz View Post
I can guarantee you made the error on your with the help of "YouTube" and not "with the help of this forum".

either way looks fine. does it function fine? then its fine.
I didn't write that post with the intent of blaming my error on this forum or Youtube, although I guess one may read it as such. But for the record, I'm well aware that the fault lies solely on myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 350skylark View Post
maybe if you can get a needle point to cross it and feel if it catches like its cracked might be something to try?
The small silver scratch located deeper in the fire control area, can be felt.
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  #69  
Old 03-02-2014, 1:37 PM
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Does look somewhat like a stress crack

Forget the JB weld

How about thin CA glue
I put a cracked polymer Tec 9 back together with this stuff


Last edited by RTE; 03-02-2014 at 1:41 PM..
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  #70  
Old 03-02-2014, 2:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTE View Post
Does look somewhat like a stress crack

Forget the JB weld

How about thin CA glue
I put a cracked polymer Tec 9 back together with this stuff

Thanks for the tip, I'll look into the glue.


Seeing that the overall consensus is that the lower is fine and safe to shoot. I'm going to continue on with the build. But I will put some type of adhesive (either JB weld as I have used that stuff before and it's STRONG or some type of extra strength glue) on the inner part of the fire control area for peace of mind. Not a crazy amount, but a small thin film like layer. And after looking online for a bit, I see that several people have fixed cracks, chips and even holes in receivers with different types of epoxies. I guess a crack in the upper receiver is something worse to worry about.

Thanks for all the help guys.
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  #71  
Old 03-02-2014, 3:21 PM
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Spray light penetrating oil on the "crack", KROIL would work well, WD40 should work too. Let the oil sit for a few minutes and then wipe it off very well. Then sprinkle chalk dust on the crack area (you can figure out how to make chalk dust, the finer the better). If the crack line shows up in the chalk dust then you probably have a crack. The crack will allow the oil to penetrate it and the chalk dust will pull oil out and show a "wet" line. This is the cheap version of buying a dye-penetrant kit to look for a crack.
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  #72  
Old 03-02-2014, 3:37 PM
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complete it and function check it... besides if u can manage to jack one up with a small hammer im sure they wouldn't issue the same pattern rifle to our boys.you can go on youtube and watch people put these under a 3 ton press and come out okay..if anything i think u just stress cracked the finish if u jammed it in hard enough that u had to wiggle it free.
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  #73  
Old 03-02-2014, 7:55 PM
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Honestly, if it is a crack I would contact Aero.
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  #74  
Old 03-02-2014, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
I think your fine. Have your mother in law test fire it. I use a set of lineman pliers with tape on jaws to start the pin.
Ha! I think you should have my mother-in-law test fire it.

I looked at your pictures. You would have to whack the hell out of that lower to break it unless it is defective.
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  #75  
Old 03-02-2014, 11:05 PM
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Looking at it, it looks suspect.

Put a drop of rubbing alcohol on it on one side. If you see the back side get wet, then it's definitely a crack. If you don't see it get wet, then you need to try another test.

The chalk method, as mentioned before, will help you see if the back side is getting wet or not. It will wick the moisture, and is also easier to see when it gets wet.

This is a really really easy first test.
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  #76  
Old 03-02-2014, 11:54 PM
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Forged or Billet? This was Grandpa's quote. He believes billet is stronger I disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syds Grandpa View Post
Forging (Near Net Shapes) are prone to inclusions and stress cracks. That's why all forged product for the military requires some sort of NDT (Non Destructive Test). They also react poorly to thermals due to uneven stress induced during the forging process, meaning as your weapon heats up the receivers move.
Buy Billet.
Forging is stronger. A billet lower or upper may be stronger because you can add additional material, but a forged aluminum part is stronger all things being equal. Here are some quotes from an actual manufacturer that might help.

"Let me chime in from a manufacturing standpoint.

Forging creates a denser metal grain structure when the metal flows under forging pressure and orients surface grain flow to follow the curvature of the features forged into the blank. It increases strength. The same strength gains can be seen in other manufacturing techniques that plastically deforms the material being processed, such as hole mandrelizing, button rifling, thread rolling, cold-form tapping, etc. It's all run-of-the-mill processes used in commercial and aerospace manufacturing. None of it is unique to the firearms industry. You'll find a lot of folks in the automotive hobby tend to have a lot of wild ideas about billet parts too. While not a direct comparison, spun cast aluminum alloy wheels and forged aluminum alloy wheels have a huge weight disparity (and pricing too) because forgings can "do more with less".

Machining from a blank is nice because the shape is up to what the engineer and programmer wishes to do on the machining center. You can do smaller runs while keeping reasonable costs-per-unit because you're just investing in additional programming time and not new tooling if you change the design. Forging is a pretty expensive process to set up. Making any changes requires the manufacturing of a new set of forging dies.

The accuracy is up to the engineers. Mil-spec receivers are stuck to a specific shape and set of tolerances and cannot add anything extra without falling outside the print dimensions. Billets can be stronger than forgings simply because they can leave more material, can reinforce areas that are prone to deformation, and aren't limited to the blueprint shape of the receivers so it's not really an apples-apples comparison. If you have a forging of identical mass and shape to a billet, it'll be stronger than the billet. Forgings receive further machine work to clean up dimensions, true up holes, and whatnot so any meaningful tolerances in regards to flatness, parallelism, etc, is determined by the print specs and how tight the machinist wants to hold those specs. A tolerance might be -/+ 0.010" so a part held at +.0095" is just as good as a part that measures -0.0003" because it's within print specs. If it takes additional time and effort (which translates to money) to hold smaller tolerances than the print allocation, it makes no financial sense unless the vendor raises the price of the parts and the company is willing to absorb that cost.

How a company executes the machining processes used ultimately determines the product. Garbage in, garbage out. Dandy in, dandy out."

There are also billet uppers (Vltor MUR) which are machined from forged blocks and these are very strong.
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  #77  
Old 03-03-2014, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottsBad View Post
Forging is stronger. A billet lower or upper may be stronger because you can add additional material, but a forged aluminum part is stronger all things being equal. Here are some quotes from an actual manufacturer that might help.

"Let me chime in from a manufacturing standpoint.

Forging creates a denser metal grain structure when the metal flows under forging pressure and orients surface grain flow to follow the curvature of the features forged into the blank. It increases strength. The same strength gains can be seen in other manufacturing techniques that plastically deforms the material being processed, such as hole mandrelizing, button rifling, thread rolling, cold-form tapping, etc. It's all run-of-the-mill processes used in commercial and aerospace manufacturing. None of it is unique to the firearms industry. You'll find a lot of folks in the automotive hobby tend to have a lot of wild ideas about billet parts too. While not a direct comparison, spun cast aluminum alloy wheels and forged aluminum alloy wheels have a huge weight disparity (and pricing too) because forgings can "do more with less".

Machining from a blank is nice because the shape is up to what the engineer and programmer wishes to do on the machining center. You can do smaller runs while keeping reasonable costs-per-unit because you're just investing in additional programming time and not new tooling if you change the design. Forging is a pretty expensive process to set up. Making any changes requires the manufacturing of a new set of forging dies.

The accuracy is up to the engineers. Mil-spec receivers are stuck to a specific shape and set of tolerances and cannot add anything extra without falling outside the print dimensions. Billets can be stronger than forgings simply because they can leave more material, can reinforce areas that are prone to deformation, and aren't limited to the blueprint shape of the receivers so it's not really an apples-apples comparison. If you have a forging of identical mass and shape to a billet, it'll be stronger than the billet. Forgings receive further machine work to clean up dimensions, true up holes, and whatnot so any meaningful tolerances in regards to flatness, parallelism, etc, is determined by the print specs and how tight the machinist wants to hold those specs. A tolerance might be -/+ 0.010" so a part held at +.0095" is just as good as a part that measures -0.0003" because it's within print specs. If it takes additional time and effort (which translates to money) to hold smaller tolerances than the print allocation, it makes no financial sense unless the vendor raises the price of the parts and the company is willing to absorb that cost.

How a company executes the machining processes used ultimately determines the product. Garbage in, garbage out. Dandy in, dandy out."

There are also billet uppers (Vltor MUR) which are machined from forged blocks and these are very strong.
I don't think you said anything related to the post you quoted, except that it has something to do with forging.
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  #78  
Old 03-03-2014, 7:02 AM
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Dude, run it like a stolen car...till the wheels fall off. Then sell it and get another. Now go shoot that, F'er!
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  #79  
Old 03-03-2014, 7:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShagg View Post
I don't think you said anything related to the post you quoted, except that it has something to do with forging.
You didn't read the entire thread. The quote by Grandpa is included. The purpose of the quote I included is to try to put the Forged vs. Billet debate to sleep.

Last edited by ScottsBad; 03-03-2014 at 8:09 AM..
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  #80  
Old 03-03-2014, 8:12 AM
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Holy Shiet... 2 pages and it can be resolved in 30 seconds...

It is already "blemished"

Get a piece of 320 grit sandpaper and lightly sand THE INSIDE of the finish away. If there is a visible line you have a crack. If there isnt you just need to use a lil more sharpie and your headache goes away. I am in Temecula area if you want me to do it.
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