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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #1  
Old 02-18-2014, 10:00 AM
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Default Would you buy land with a river or creek on it?

With the threat of the EPA stopping you from building and all sorts of other property damaging regulations and rules is it worth it? The EPA recently said they own ANY water source including small creeks on private property.

Just one example of land for sale with a spring and creek.

http://www.flexmls.com/cgi-bin/mainm...s=7&id=1&cid=1
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:02 AM
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Sure. In fact, I am looking to do exactly this. In a survival context, EPA rules mean squat.

Just build whatever you are going to build after the event and not before.
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:15 AM
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Im trying to find one with a water source.
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:48 AM
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Nice property OP but kind of pricey imho. If a person is paying $115k just for the land; property taxes will be something to think about. Once you build something the assessed value will probably be twice that, and taxes will go up too. I'm more of a bargain buyer when it comes to land. Btw, from my digging so far building regulations seem to be much easier to deal with in remote areas compared to in the Los Angeles area.
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Old 02-18-2014, 11:24 AM
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IMO, it all depends on the specifics of the property in question.

There is a lot of value to having multiple water sources, particularly when one of them isn't dependent on power/pumps/pressure tank systems, etc. But, as you say, the EPA can get in your way of doing what you want to do with the property. You also need to check out what water rights come with the property. Just because that stream runs through your land doesn't mean you have the right to take any water out of it.

If the property does come with water rights, and if the size and topography of the property are such that you can develop the land while staying far enough away from the water source to minimize any chance of the EPA getting involved then I'd give it some serious thought.
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Old 02-18-2014, 12:04 PM
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Check with Fish & Game too. They have a lot of jurisdiction over streams & rivers. Seasonal or year round.. doesn't matter. I had to involve them when we were replacing a bridge that went over a seasonal stream. Had to make sure the moorings for the bridge didn't "impede flow of the water for fish migration". Ridiculous, but something to deal with.
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Old 02-18-2014, 1:37 PM
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In a survival context, EPA rules mean squat.
This, plus, just because the EPA says something (did they actually say this?) doesn't mean it's true. Has it been challenged in court?

And did you have your heart set on building a dam? If so, you'll probably have big EPA (and/or other agency) hassles, but if you just fish in the river / other low-impact use, I doubt anyone will care. So your desired level of utilization matters.

Obv building a (e.g.) dam after the SHTF is problematic -- we can all agree you'd want your ducks in a row before the going gets tough, not trying to pull off a construction project when you're potentially defending your life, so again, level of use matters.

If your envisioned level of use is high (let's say you want to generate power from the water flow, and are thinking you'll build a dam), then specify it, and maybe there are alternatives some here can suggest which won't freak out some govt agency?
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Old 02-18-2014, 3:01 PM
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This, plus, just because the EPA says something (did they actually say this?) doesn't mean it's true. Has it been challenged in court?

And did you have your heart set on building a dam? If so, you'll probably have big EPA (and/or other agency) hassles, but if you just fish in the river / other low-impact use, I doubt anyone will care. So your desired level of utilization matters.

Obv building a (e.g.) dam after the SHTF is problematic -- we can all agree you'd want your ducks in a row before the going gets tough, not trying to pull off a construction project when you're potentially defending your life, so again, level of use matters.

If your envisioned level of use is high (let's say you want to generate power from the water flow, and are thinking you'll build a dam), then specify it, and maybe there are alternatives some here can suggest which won't freak out some govt agency?
^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^
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Old 02-18-2014, 3:13 PM
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EPA aside, I wouldn't buy the land if there is no place to build on it that would be WELL above any possible flooding.
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Old 02-18-2014, 4:18 PM
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Depending on the speed of the current, I'd think a paddle wheel setup would be the best setup for generating electricity.
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Old 02-18-2014, 5:02 PM
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Absolutely!

I'd just look at it as an alternate water source.

And you could have all the gear ready to do a water-wheel generator or dam, but don't set it up until you are actually dealing with SHTF, and power is actually out. I'd imagine a very simple setup could be done using automobile alternators.
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Old 02-18-2014, 5:35 PM
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You should check with the county the land is in. You will find that when you leave Calif. you leave the bueracracy behind. My dad had 680 acres in Montana. He asked about permits and restrictions as he wanted to build a small cabin. They looked at him strangely like "What are you talking about, it's your property". There was a small stream on the property. Do your homework and good luck.
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  #13  
Old 02-18-2014, 6:44 PM
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You should check with the county the land is in. You will find that when you leave Calif. you leave the bueracracy behind. My dad had 680 acres in Montana. He asked about permits and restrictions as he wanted to build a small cabin. They looked at him strangely like "What are you talking about, it's your property". There was a small stream on the property. Do your homework and good luck.
This is all true. The area where PC is looking is well known for their unrestrictive zoning regulations. However, in the same County as the property he posted the EPA went after a landowner for messing around with a riparian area on their property.
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Old 02-18-2014, 7:12 PM
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You haven't moved yet? Thought you were already in Idaho.

As long as you're not watering crops or damming the stream, I don't see where that would be a problem. Other than flooding.
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Old 02-18-2014, 7:13 PM
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Why would you tease me PC with such a beutifull property lol Can the EPA still harrass you if you own the mineral rights? Ive been looking myself at the Idaho getaway but I am looking more of a 50k range with water on the property. Found a few but dont want the dam EPA or any other agency sticking their nose in my buissness.
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Old 02-18-2014, 7:20 PM
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Why would you tease me PC with such a beutifull property lol Can the EPA still harrass you if you own the mineral rights? Ive been looking myself at the Idaho getaway but I am looking more of a 50k range with water on the property. Found a few but dont want the dam EPA or any other agency sticking their nose in my buissness.
I would gues so. they give casual gold miners alot of problems. even though through our claims(mineral rights) we have riparian water rights.
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Old 02-18-2014, 7:24 PM
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In a survival context, EPA rules mean squat.
After SHTF...

I dare anyone to come out there and try to cite you
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Old 02-18-2014, 7:53 PM
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I would prefer to buy land with a water source on it.
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Old 02-18-2014, 7:59 PM
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I'd buy it. Water brings animals and animals are food. Water can be filtered and EPA won't matter in SHTF, plus they won't check your stuff that's behind closed doors.
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Old 02-18-2014, 9:24 PM
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Or how about a well? Build a pond with the excess water if any.
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:18 AM
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Or how about a well? Build a pond with the excess water if any.
Soon the EPA will seize control of all aquifer water. Mark my words.
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Old 02-19-2014, 1:48 AM
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My dad has property in rural washington, nearest town has a population of about 300 last I checked. His neighbor is his friend from Kindergarden, they have a joint creek that runs through their valley dammed and a water wheel build in it, never once heard of EPA problems. His friends been there for 30yrs, my dad for 9. I will point out that he did build his waterwheel so the fish could go around it, basically brought in rocks from further up to build a split in the creek.
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Old 02-19-2014, 4:58 PM
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Prefer a natural spring to a creek, and I would avoid any kind of obvious tributary to a larger water supply. That said there are probably 10,000's of "creeks" that aren't or don't really seem to be or aren't regulated - if you build a damn copy the beaver and blame them.
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Old 02-20-2014, 5:50 AM
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Prefer a natural spring to a creek, and I would avoid any kind of obvious tributary to a larger water supply. That said there are probably 10,000's of "creeks" that aren't or don't really seem to be or aren't regulated - if you build a damn copy the beaver and blame them.
I agree, if it's a reliable source of water this is lower profile compared to a stream, and you don't have the potential flooding concerns that come with a larger stream or river.

Here's an article about one method of developing a spring as a backup water source. This was written by the realtor we used when we bought our property in ID. He used a water witcher to help find likely locations. I'm a little skeptical about whether that's worthwhile, but he swears by them.

When we were up walking our property in early December we think we found a natural spring on the surface. Everything was frozen solid, so it was a little hard to tell for sure, so we'll have to check it out when we're back up there in June.
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Old 02-20-2014, 9:08 AM
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The link is dead.
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Old 02-20-2014, 9:59 AM
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The link is dead.
Hmmm, the link works OK for me.

Here is the address: www.revrealty.us/offgrid-springs.html
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Old 02-20-2014, 10:37 AM
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My brother looked at some land with a stream. He had the map with all the set-backs and easements; he could use 20% of 5 acres. Too many people in Kali to buy land on a wetland, you do that way out in the country.
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:16 AM
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Out of this micromanaged socialist government state? You bet. In it? Doubtful.
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:19 PM
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Out of this micromanaged socialist government state? You bet. In it? Doubtful.
So, I caution people about that viewpoint. Look into the case of the Sackett family in north Idaho. They have been harassed by the EPA over certain developments they made to their property and its status as a wetland, which has lead to a long running legal battle. I don't really know all the specifics of their case. There are those that believe the Sacketts had it coming to them based on how they developed the property. Nevertheless, there is little doubt about the harassment by the EPA.

Now, this is not California. This is in Bonner County Idaho, which has to have one of the least intrusive approaches to private property development in the country. So the OP's concern is legitimate based on the behavior of Fed.Gov in recent times.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that all properties with surface water features should be avoided, but certainly go in with your eyes open.
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Old 02-20-2014, 1:06 PM
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^ Good point! EPA is Federal, not state.

I found this article and video: http://www.krem.com/news/local/North...140381543.html

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Mike Sackett and his wife Chantal have been trying to build their home since 2007 but the EPA arrived before even the foundation could be poured.

Mike says they were issued a compliance order that said they needed to return the land to its original state or be fined $37,500 a day.

The fines now total over $100 million despite the Sackets claiming they were never told their property were wetlands.

The Sackets turned to the local courts and the 9th district court for help.

They were denied after rulings that they could not sue the EPA.

Their case was taken to the U.S. Supreme Court earlier this year for a certain ruling.

The EPA will not comment.
It appears that they went to the Supreme Court and won (9-0), but I don't see anything about whether they could finally build their house or about any fines.
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Old 02-20-2014, 3:28 PM
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learn to respect the land or stay in town

you want to park yourself next to a water source?.......respect it...

the regs are there for a reason..its not just more Big Brother
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Old 02-20-2014, 5:38 PM
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My plans are to find said land for sale, and use sheds and travel trailers as livable structures.
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Old 02-20-2014, 5:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Sojournertruth View Post
learn to respect the land or stay in town

you want to park yourself next to a water source?.......respect it...

the regs are there for a reason..its not just more Big Brother
Or learn what really happened before shooting off. A neighbor , who didn't want them to build and block his view of the water, called EPA and said they were building on wetlands, which they were NOT!. Its like calling SWAT on a person who is innocent and SWAT murders the whole family.
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Old 02-20-2014, 6:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Sojournertruth View Post
learn to respect the land or stay in town

you want to park yourself next to a water source?.......respect it...

the regs are there for a reason..its not just more Big Brother
I am not convinced it's all for good reason. With programs like Agenda 21 under consideration I think there elements of the environmental movement that want to drive people out of rural areas and back to the cities. The EPA serves as the henchmen for this movement.
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Old 02-20-2014, 6:43 PM
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Or learn what really happened before shooting off. A neighbor , who didn't want them to build and block his view of the water, called EPA and said they were building on wetlands, which they were NOT!. Its like calling SWAT on a person who is innocent and SWAT murders the whole family.
bs story.....

the EPA doesn't take some "neighbors" word to determine what a Wetland is...or is not
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Old 02-20-2014, 7:28 PM
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I have 5 .1 acres of land on the Pecos river in Tx. It has 221 feet of river frontage. If anyone is interested in this property I would sell it for $5500 an acre. It is near Pecos Tx.
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Old 02-20-2014, 7:35 PM
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Originally Posted by lasbrg View Post
^ Good point! EPA is Federal, not state.

I found this article and video: http://www.krem.com/news/local/North...140381543.html



It appears that they went to the Supreme Court and won (9-0), but I don't see anything about whether they could finally build their house or about any fines.
Since Sackett got arrested for sex trafficking a couple months back it's likely to go away (arrested by undercover DHS BTW). Sounds like the initial trouble began when the army corp of engineers considered the .6 acre lot viable to build and the EPA did not. Lots of trouble for a $27k lot...
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:17 PM
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Since Sackett got arrested for sex trafficking a couple months back it's likely to go away (arrested by undercover DHS BTW). Sounds like the initial trouble began when the army corp of engineers considered the .6 acre lot viable to build and the EPA did not. Lots of trouble for a $27k lot...
looks like thy tryed to destroy him for challenging the EPA. Hopefully the bill that was introduced to nullify EPA regulationsin Idaho will pass. Whether the state will acert the states right to manage things is a different matter but heres to hopeing
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:10 AM
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Since Sackett got arrested for sex trafficking a couple months back it's likely to go away (arrested by undercover DHS BTW).
The name "John DeLorean" springs to mind.
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Old 02-21-2014, 6:17 AM
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lasbrg lasbrg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheels View Post
Since Sackett got arrested for sex trafficking a couple months back it's likely to go away (arrested by undercover DHS BTW).
Quote:
Sackett, 47, attempted to entice an underage girl to commit a commercial sex act on Sunday in Williams County, N.D., a criminal complaint alleges.
Was the underage girl DHS?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguns85 View Post
looks like thy tried to destroy him for challenging the EPA.
Sure looks that way. They must have really hated him.
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