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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #41  
Old 02-06-2014, 6:26 PM
264winchester 264winchester is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyotegunner View Post
I have owned rifles a few times in 270 and usually traded them or sold them.
I just prefer the 280 and the 7mm-08.I reload for both.
Reasons:Mild recoil,easy on brass,enough energy at hunting ranges to kill anything in the lower 48.

Last edited by 264winchester; 02-06-2014 at 6:28 PM..
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  #42  
Old 02-06-2014, 6:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
Both rounds are based on the '06 case. So why not just go with original. You can't really improve upon perfection


CORRECTION: Both rounds are based on the 30-03 case.
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  #43  
Old 02-06-2014, 6:38 PM
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Did you buy a damn rifle yet?
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  #44  
Old 02-06-2014, 6:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennstater View Post
^^^This wins!^^^
Both rounds are based on the 30-03 case.

You lose!
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  #45  
Old 02-06-2014, 7:10 PM
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The 1903 was never produced in 30-03, the cal. change was made during prototype testing. The 03 fired a 220 grn. round nose bullet and was a shorter cartridge, testing showed it was not nearly as accurate the 160 grn. "pointy" bullet. So what this means is you and i both know some meaningless B.S.. LOL
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  #46  
Old 02-06-2014, 7:16 PM
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Yeah, but I'm still left trying to figure out why someone would buy a .270 or .280 over a .308 or 30-06?

I get maybe the .280 is a little flatter shooting, but there has to be more. I've never shot a .270 or .280, and just curious.
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Old 02-06-2014, 7:28 PM
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Originally Posted by NordicDave View Post
Yeah, but I'm still left trying to figure out why someone would buy a .270 or .280 over a .308 or 30-06?

I get maybe the .280 is a little flatter shooting, but there has to be more. I've never shot a .270 or .280, and just curious.
A 270 shoots a 130 grain bullet at an average of 3100 fps some about 3200 fps usual is 3000 fps. Great for Deer and black Bear size game, with 140-160 grain bullets it will anything a 30-06 or 308 will do, lets leave out the 200-220 grain nominal Moose bullets that are pretty much history as far as hunting goes. It kicks less then an 06 it was never a military round, it's a very prominent all around cartridge with 130-140-150-160 grain bullets and it's just not your grandpas thuddyotsix
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  #48  
Old 02-06-2014, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
280 offers a wider range of bullet weights which is attractive for hand loading and tuning to a rifle (which I'll do in either case anyway). They are nearly identical ballistically so it's a really close call and it's a difficult decision.
The decision really comes down to if you reload.
270 for the factory ammo shooter.
280 for the shooter who reloads...
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  #49  
Old 02-06-2014, 9:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordicDave View Post
Why would someone choose a .270 or .280 over a .308 or .308's ballistic sibling .30-06?
Better BC with similar bullet weights equals flatter shooting, less windage correction and more energy on target.
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  #50  
Old 02-06-2014, 10:18 PM
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Thanks Toby & Randall. Helpful.
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  #51  
Old 02-07-2014, 8:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Better BC with similar bullet weights equals flatter shooting, less windage correction and more energy on target.
Exactly. As usual, Randall, you put in one sentence what it takes me a paragraph to get across and took me a lot of study to figure out.

I am looking at rifles in .280 right now. No decision yet since I have to wait for my Federal tax refund to buy anyway. But it will be .280 though.

I am also considering a 7mm-08 and am looking at the Remy 7600 pump if they are as accurate as Remington claims. Of course, at $795 list, it's pricey if not as accurate as a bolt gun. Remy floats the barrel by the way. Anyone know about the 7600 accuracy?

I saw the 7mm-08 on Gun Broker (for over $1,000 anniversary models) and thought they still made it. They now only make it in 243, 270, 308, 30-06. Now eyeing a Browning X-bolt .280 closely. If only that tax refund would get here...
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Last edited by advocatusdiaboli; 02-07-2014 at 9:03 AM.. Reason: Updated re 7600
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  #52  
Old 02-07-2014, 2:03 PM
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My $0.02

I have several calibers including both .270 and .280 For A zone blacktails, coyotes, prairie dogs, teaching youngsters how to shoot rifles I always grab the .270 if I can grab only one gun.

For hogs, Mule deer, Elk, Bear...I grab the .280

All for the reloading reasons and my comfort. The .280 is a Featherweight Win70 and the game I hunt w it means I'm packing/hiking a lot. Sure, I have heavier calibers but I have yet to feel under powered w the .280. Lots of choices and variables in reloading.

280




280


280 Barnes XT recovered from armour plate in the boar hog I killed.
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  #53  
Old 02-07-2014, 5:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 264winchester View Post
Both rounds are based on the 30-03 case.



You lose!

Which was an attempt to copy the German 8mm round.

Ha
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  #54  
Old 02-07-2014, 6:09 PM
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This is the last year for the Ruger#1A in .280Rem! Nice 7lb rifle.
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  #55  
Old 02-07-2014, 6:25 PM
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love my 270,,, love my 280,,, but based on bullet selection alone, I am seriously considering selling my 280 or going AI with it... might just start hunting with the 7mm mag and dropping everything else....
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  #56  
Old 02-07-2014, 7:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
Which was an attempt to copy improvement on the German 8mm round.

Ha
Fixed it for you.
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  #57  
Old 02-07-2014, 9:20 PM
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Vote for .270 if you are not a reloader.
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  #58  
Old 02-08-2014, 7:15 AM
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My choice would be/is the .270Win and I reload. There are two reasons; there is an abundance of brass everywhere and most sporting goods outfits carry a small verity of .280 or none at all. With the development of the 6.8SPC (.277) round there is now a lot more lighter bullet weights available.

I am currently working up a load with Barnes 85 grain TSX bullets that have a muzzle velocity of 3900+fps that will be devastating on any deer size game in California up to 200 yards. I also reload a Hornady Interlock 140grain that works great.

Which ever you choose you cant go wrong as far as performance. Just be sure to take in consideration the current political climate and future availability of brass and other reloading components. There is a lot more .270Win brass out floating around. ...not trying to got "tin foil hat" on you.
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  #59  
Old 02-08-2014, 8:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 264winchester View Post
Both rounds are based on the 30-03 case.

You lose!
Yeah, well, once the cartridge was "standardized" in 1906 and named the"30-06 Gov't., that is what other cartridges in that "family" were named. Just sayin'.
In other words:.270 Win., .280 Rem., .308 Win. etc.

Last edited by pennstater; 02-08-2014 at 8:20 PM..
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  #60  
Old 02-11-2014, 9:26 AM
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Many thanks all Calgunners. It is a privilege to have access to the collective wisdom of such a great group of firearms aficionados.

Here is where I am:
I really value the advice you all have given. The calibers are so close that it's really just a personal preference—there is no wrong decision. And I can say that thanks to all of you weighing in.

I am currently waiting for my federal and Cal state tax refunds (they are quick to take it, slow to give it back) to buy a .280 bolt gun. Looking at Browning X-bolt and Savage 116 (the Savage has the edge because the barrel bedding is superior and I want an MOA or less out of the box if I can). Saiko is just too pricey though tempting. A friend is buying a Cooper .280 AI (oh I wish I had that kind of dough) but I'll stick with .280 and the 140 or 150 gr bullets until I reload. A man has to know his limitations.

Note to Randall: I might want you to do some custom work on the gun to increase it's accuracy and precision if you do that kind of thing and I think you do.
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  #61  
Old 02-11-2014, 1:21 PM
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Default The .280 is superior

By enough to make a lot of difference? No.

Based on the '06 case you get better cartridge efficiency the bigger the bore. As much as the .280 is superior to the .270, the .30-06 is superior to both.

An extra point would be the plethora of good 7mm bullets for game hunting that are available if you load your own.
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  #62  
Old 02-11-2014, 1:56 PM
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I beg to differ a bit because the "the bigger the bore, the better" is a flawed argument: the 30-06 doesn't have as good BC as the .270 or .280 but tries (and fails) by adding recoil and sectional density to make up for it.

Sorry to get a bit cheeky, but in my flawed opinion, it's Grandpa's rifle because it was used in a war so it was cheap, plentiful, and good enough for hunting short-to-mediium range but there are better cartridges out there now in modern times. Cheap, plentiful, and good enough also applies to kerosene lanterns (Grandpa used those too) but I won't just because he did. I don't drive a Model A Ford claiming nothing will ever be better either. Don't get me wrong: the .30-06 is a proven field gun, but it's not the most efficient—it's the cheapest and most plentiful and for many that is the right combination. I have a different set of criteria than that.
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"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
-- John Dean "Jeff" Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

Last edited by advocatusdiaboli; 02-11-2014 at 3:13 PM..
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  #63  
Old 02-12-2014, 6:58 AM
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Default From 'Rifle Ballistic's Summary' at Chuck Hawks site

Cartridge bullet weight Velocity Muzzle energy(ft. lbs)

.25-06 120 3000 2400

.270 150 2850 2700

.280 160 2900 2950

.30-06 165 2800 2875

.338-06 200 2750 3350

.35 Whelen 250 2500 3450

I know it might be an apples to oranges thing but, they all share a parent case. There seems to be a pretty clear trend towards increased muzzle energy as the bore increases.
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Old 02-12-2014, 7:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
I beg to differ a bit because the "the bigger the bore, the better" is a flawed argument: the 30-06 doesn't have as good BC as the .270 or .280 but tries (and fails) by adding recoil and sectional density to make up for it.

Sorry to get a bit cheeky, but in my flawed opinion, it's Grandpa's rifle because it was used in a war so it was cheap, plentiful, and good enough for hunting short-to-mediium range but there are better cartridges out there now in modern times. Cheap, plentiful, and good enough also applies to kerosene lanterns (Grandpa used those too) but I won't just because he did. I don't drive a Model A Ford claiming nothing will ever be better either. Don't get me wrong: the .30-06 is a proven field gun, but it's not the most efficient—it's the cheapest and most plentiful and for many that is the right combination. I have a different set of criteria than that.
by that logic, we shouldn't shoot bolt rifles anymore

reality is that the technical, theoretical, practical, any other differences between the three are trivial. all three will be extremely effective rounds far beyond the ranges 99% of all shooters and hunters. in other words, there is simply no difference if the hunter chooses the correct bullet and makes proper shot placement.

I shoot the '06 because I have garands as well as bolt '06's and it's way easier to reload for all one caliber. I do think the bullet selection is far larger for .30 cal, and it probably is the best overall round. that doesn't mean the 270 or 280 lacks anything, nor does it mean there are things they don't do better. but if I was picking a single cartridge, one that I could comfortably use for anything in north america, have as wide an array of options and availability as possible, and also give me the larges selection of rifles, than '06 is it.

honestly, they are all great choices and whatever advantages one has over the other, it would take a very very skilled shooter, using specially tailored handloads, and a purpose built rifle, to exploit. since I fail in all three of those areas (I reload, but I'm just the hobbyist reloader, not the performance type. I hunt with an old sporterized 03A3.) I certainly wouldn't know the difference and nothing I hunt would either.

270 as well as '06 will always be on shelves. but 280 might not always be.
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  #65  
Old 02-12-2014, 7:41 AM
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The triple goal of a hunting cartridge is: precision, accuracy, and game killing effectiveness under field conditions. In my opinion, muzzle energy is not the best approximation to use as a measure of fitness to those goals.

Here's the thing: the science of ballistics is a very complex science. And engineers (like me) approach most complex sciences from a practical standpoint based on our training: we start with a model and keep refining it by adding higher order terms until the error of ignoring them is small enough to give us the approximation we need for practical use.

Most non-engineers trying to avoid complexity typically seize on a single item as their approximation to that triple goal of for hunting cartridge: muzzle energy, muzzle velocity, ballistic coefficient, sectional density, bullet frontal area, military cartridge, grandpa's choice, etc. etc. Unfortunately, the reality is much more complex.

The 06 wins in frontal area, but the .270 and 7mmRM have a great sectional density overall.
And sectional density is a better approximation of killing power than either muzzle energy or velocity or frontal area especially at a distance. Further, flatter trajectory (due to a better BC) means greater maximum point blank range for longer distance shooting. The 7mmRM is actually the best of the .270, .308, .30-06 comparison but it needs at least a 1/2 pound heavier rifle to keep recoil low and it's still a lot higher. And I don't want to lug around the heavier rifle if I don't need the power. The recoil of a .270/.280 is less meaning any given shooter will be more accurate and precise, especially on followup shots. And the .280 is really close to the 7mm RM and adds recoil over the .270 but less than the .30-06. The .30-06 has the recoil of the 7mmRM but not the accuracy or range. It's popularity is due to commonness and tradition more than ballistics.

In the end, all of this is splitting hairs in that any of the following will do: 7mm-08, .270, .280, .7mmRM, .308. .30-06. But I prefer the most accurate rifle I can afford while keeping rifle weight low and recoil low: therefore I will buy a .280 (a .284 bullet diameter) though hard to find in lefthand in a quality rifle at a good price. If I add a mountain rifle to my rifle battery one day, I will add a 7mm-08 light short-action rifle with punch (also a .284 diameter bullet saving reloading costs). I want one day to precision shoot and yet not buy a bunch of dies and bullets and powders, so I'll go with .280 for that instead of .308 as well since I'll already have one or two for hunting—all .284 bullets which is the reason for .280 over .270. Maybe I'll even, if I get the money, buy a Cooper .280AI though my lottery ticket hasn't come in yet.

That's it. It's an incorporation of many factors, a fair amount of research, and much knowledge gained from people I know that hunt and this forum especially experts like Randall Rausch. "Them's" my choices and why I made 'em. There is no "right answer" for everybody. But I now have mine.
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  #66  
Old 02-12-2014, 8:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
by that logic, we shouldn't shoot bolt rifles anymore

reality is that the technical, theoretical, practical, any other differences between the three are trivial. all three will be extremely effective rounds far beyond the ranges 99% of all shooters and hunters. in other words, there is simply no difference if the hunter chooses the correct bullet and makes proper shot placement.

I shoot the '06 because I have garands as well as bolt '06's and it's way easier to reload for all one caliber. I do think the bullet selection is far larger for .30 cal, and it probably is the best overall round. that doesn't mean the 270 or 280 lacks anything, nor does it mean there are things they don't do better. but if I was picking a single cartridge, one that I could comfortably use for anything in north america, have as wide an array of options and availability as possible, and also give me the larges selection of rifles, than '06 is it.

honestly, they are all great choices and whatever advantages one has over the other, it would take a very very skilled shooter, using specially tailored handloads, and a purpose built rifle, to exploit. since I fail in all three of those areas (I reload, but I'm just the hobbyist reloader, not the performance type. I hunt with an old sporterized 03A3.) I certainly wouldn't know the difference and nothing I hunt would either.

270 as well as '06 will always be on shelves. but 280 might not always be.
Here is one assessment: The .280 Remington is capable of developing energy nearly equal to the .30-06 Springfield, but with lighter bullets having a better ballistic coefficient. The .30-06 produces more energy than the .280 with bullets heavier than 180 grains, though .284" 175 grain bullets have a high sectional density of .310, compared to the 30-06 180 grain bullet with a moderate sectional density of .271. The .280 is suitable for hunting any game in North America with good shot placement.

Our posts crossed but our assessments are pretty close (I am a hunter and intend to be a hobbyist reloader and amateur precision shooter)—only our conclusions differ but for similar reasons: I want to standardize on bullets and you do (.284" for me, .308" for you). I want a short action option for the bullet (7mm-08) and you perhaps do too (.308). But you make a good point about .280 though it only applies to brass I think, not bullets given the .284 is shared among a few cartridges. Of course if we cannot overturn the foolish lead bullet ban coming in a few years, .280's lower popularity might end up costing me more significantly. I might then wish I'd standardized on .30-06/.308 instead of .280/7mm-08 or be spending a lot of time re-forming brass and paying extra for bullets.
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  #67  
Old 02-12-2014, 9:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutcliffe View Post
Cartridge bullet weight Velocity Muzzle energy(ft. lbs)



.25-06 120 3000 2400



.270 150 2850 2700



.280 160 2900 2950



.30-06 165 2800 2875



.338-06 200 2750 3350



.35 Whelen 250 2500 3450



I know it might be an apples to oranges thing but, they all share a parent case. There seems to be a pretty clear trend towards increased muzzle energy as the bore increases.

Those are all fine and dandy if you are able to touch the muzzle to your game before you fire.
Re-run the energy figures at 500yds and everything changes because the BC matters more than the muzzle energy...
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  #68  
Old 02-12-2014, 4:01 PM
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Update: put a down payment on a Tikka T3 .270 (I wanted .280 but they don't make them in lefthand—in fact few do (only Browning and the LH Tikka was cheaper because I got a good deal). So Ill have to wait for that .280 Cooper one day when I can afford one. Oh well there goes my one bullet idea).
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Old 02-12-2014, 4:25 PM
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The .270Win will serve you well! The .270 has stood the test of time with no help from the military like the 30-06 and the .308, both (all three) great cartridges.
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Old 02-12-2014, 6:15 PM
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The 270 killed the 280 just the facts of life. I love the 270 but if I were to get another it would be a 280 Ackley just for the cool factor!
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Old 02-12-2014, 6:25 PM
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Op take a look at the Savage Axis II with Weaver Scope $379
http://donshobbyguns.com/rifles/2222...trigger-detail

This is with the Accu Trigger
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Old 02-12-2014, 7:37 PM
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I already ordered the Tikka T3 in lefthand in .270 and I am thinking of putting a Leopold Patrol VX-R 3-9x40 Firedot on it so I can work with the reticle and dials on the range. I realize it is a tactical precision scope and that won't be a lot of use hunting where I'll be usually within 300 yards (the maximum point-blank range of .270 where it is within 3" high or low is 290 yards) so no holding over to hit the vitals of antelope or larger targets. But it was only $100 more and I can work with it and build skill for longer range shooting until I can satisfy my precision rifle jones one day. In the end, this needs to be fun for me. Thanks again to all of you for your advice. I didn't find exactly what I wanted in caliber, but I think I got what I needed instead.
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Last edited by advocatusdiaboli; 02-12-2014 at 7:39 PM..
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Old 02-12-2014, 7:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
I already ordered the Tikka T3 in lefthand in .270 and I am thinking of putting a Leopold Patrol VX-R 3-9x40 Firedot on it so I can work with the reticle and dials on the range. I realize it is a tactical precision scope and that won't be a lot of use hunting where I'll be usually within 300 yards (the maximum point-blank range of .270 where it is within 3" high or low is 290 yards) so no holding over to hit the vitals of antelope or larger targets. But it was only $100 more and I can work with it and build skill for longer range shooting until I can satisfy my precision rifle jones one day. In the end, this needs to be fun for me.
Kewl! Sounds like a winning combo!
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:44 PM
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That .270 will get it done! Congrats!
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
I already ordered the Tikka T3 in lefthand in .270 and I am thinking of putting a Leopold Patrol VX-R 3-9x40 Firedot on it so I can work with the reticle and dials on the range. I realize it is a tactical precision scope and that won't be a lot of use hunting where I'll be usually within 300 yards (the maximum point-blank range of .270 where it is within 3" high or low is 290 yards) so no holding over to hit the vitals of antelope or larger targets. But it was only $100 more and I can work with it and build skill for longer range shooting until I can satisfy my precision rifle jones one day. In the end, this needs to be fun for me. Thanks again to all of you for your advice. I didn't find exactly what I wanted in caliber, but I think I got what I needed instead.


I see:

reasonable objective size
not unreasonable magnification level
low profile turrets
only 15 oz

reads like a fine hunting scope as far as I can see. Keep a 100 yard zero, target shoot all day long all spring and summer long. Fall hits, turn the dial to 3 MOA up and go hunt. How do you go wrong?

edit: found the problem. No gold ring
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Old 02-13-2014, 11:06 AM
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I might be late in the game but I just wanted to say this:


(bought in the mid-80's)
Winchester Model 70 in .270 (w/3X9 Burris Scope)

Shot animals in all kinds of weather from the east coast to the west coast - at all ranges; from a few yards to 300 +

If I do my job - the rifle does it's job. I've only lost one deer because I rushed the shot when I didn't have to.
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Old 02-13-2014, 2:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post


I see:

reasonable objective size
not unreasonable magnification level
low profile turrets
only 15 oz

reads like a fine hunting scope as far as I can see. Keep a 100 yard zero, target shoot all day long all spring and summer long. Fall hits, turn the dial to 3 MOA up and go hunt. How do you go wrong?

edit: found the problem. No gold ring
Yeah. For some reason, VX-R tactical scopes don't have the gold ring—probably because "blacked-out" is "tacti-cool". The VX-R Gold Ring 3-9x40 doesn't have the .1 Mil turrets to match the reticle nicely called out and readable and the VX*R Patrol has the same life-time warranty as the scopes with Gold Rings. I think I'm good ;-)

And target shoot I will—a lot—in the shooting positions I expect in the field. One correction: Leopold TMR is a mil reticle and the turrets are detented to click in .1 mil increments. 1 mil is 3.36 MOA, so I think I click up 9 clicks for about 3 inches at 100 yards.
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-- John Dean "Jeff" Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

Last edited by advocatusdiaboli; 02-13-2014 at 2:44 PM..
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Old 02-13-2014, 2:22 PM
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I was just making a joke about the gold ring.

For what it is worth, I paid to have leupold add a CDS dial to my hunting rifle. It is low profile and out of the way. IMO a good investment.
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Old 02-13-2014, 2:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
I was just making a joke about the gold ring.

For what it is worth, I paid to have leupold add a CDS dial to my hunting rifle. It is low profile and out of the way. IMO a good investment.
I know, I was funnin' ya back. It took me a while but I blundered my way into making a good choice. Looking forward to getting it out of jail in 9 days.

And thanks to you and the others for the advice. A new rifle and Peruta in the same week. I never thought firearms owners would see such a renaissance in Kalifornia. Maybe the tide really is turning...one can hope.
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Old 02-13-2014, 5:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toby View Post
The 270 killed the 280 just the facts of life. I love the 270 but if I were to get another it would be a 280 Ackley just for the cool factor!
The 270 has been around since 1925 and the 280 came out in 1957
so the 270 didn't kill anything.

As to his wanting a hunting round that changes nothing.Custom bullets work well on big game because they are made with thin J4 jackets and accuracy is what matters.The custom bullets have better BC so they shoot flatter and don't scrub velocity like all the anemic 270 bullets do.If your a reloader there is no comparison at all and if he wants longrange as part of his goal you will never see a 270 used for that purpose but you will see plenty of 280's.

As to being able to buy brass everywhere who cares about that? I buy 100-1000 pieces it shows up in the mail and it doesn't vanish into thin air.If you don't have brass on demand you shouldn't be hunting in the first place

The 270 shoots a 130 very well but when you add 30 grains of bullet weight you can no longer push them very fast.2800 fps yes 3000 fps no way in a short barreled hunting rifle.

Enthusiasm aside lets stick to the facts and leave out the emotion.
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