Appleseed + California + AR15 + Bullet button = ? (Update! Post #17)

[BigJ]

Hey guys. I have an Appleseed event coming up that I've been practicing with my AR15 for, and today at the range it donned on me: how do people work with the bullet button and the mag swap during the Rifleman test? Especially 55 second round?

It pissed me off something fierce I even have to consider this, but I take comfort in knowing 'the children' are safer because I have to use a silly little tool to drop my mags

Any provisions made in the rules while competing, or is mag swapping with a tool something I just need to practice practice and practice some more?

Thanks guys.

[V]

Practice makes perfect :-(

[BigJ]

Grreeeat

[scoutcamper]

I have been pondering the same thing for the upcomming red bluff march appleseed...

[cjc16]

when in Rome......

[as_rocketman]

Generally students use the chamber flag (provided at Appleseed) to work the "bullet button" and change magazines.

It can be done, don't worry. I can get through an AQT with my M1917, bolt action and five-round stripper clips, without even hurrying. Think of it as a challenge. You'll be fine.

[Rock6.3]

Choices:

Go featurless and use a normal mag release

or

Have features and live with the bullet button.


Personally I have the bullet button and do not loose hardly any time using the chamber flag. Both mag change stages are easily accomplished within the time allotment, even with a California mag change.

[Eljay]

I did it and found there was plenty of time. Scored 230-something. I basically just set a punch next to the next magazine so it was always in the same place, etc. etc. It is an extra step but as irritating as it is realistically it loses you a couple of seconds and if you practice the sitting and the fast prone stages in dry fire you'll find you probably have 15 seconds left at the end. There's not a lot of time to be fixing things anyway - you pretty much need to be able to plop into position and have your NPOA be pretty close.

[BigJ]

10-4. Thanks guys.

[navin r]

Mag magnet. But imho a 223 is not best for Appleseed, unless you have tons of money for ammo, in that case carry on!

[Eljay]

Be careful of the legal issues with those magnets: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=238857

re: .223... just depends on where you are as a shooter and what your goals are. Given that his avatar is a rifleman patch I'm guessing he's at a point where going centerfire is a "next step".

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by navin r

Mag magnet. But imho a 223 is not best for Appleseed, unless you have tons of money for ammo, in that case carry on!

Originally Posted by Eljay

Be careful of the legal issues with those magnets: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=238857

re: .223... just depends on where you are as a shooter and what your goals are. Given that his avatar is a rifleman patch I'm guessing he's at a point where going centerfire is a "next step".

Exactly Eljay! I earned my patch with a 10/22, and am looking to now earn it with a centerfire. Once I get there with the AR, the Garand is next and after that, who knows... maybe a K31?

I'm going to stay away from the Mag Magnet and instead go with Thordson's UBBT:





After playing around with both ways, I decided to install them to the rear of the magazine. After maybe 10 minutes of working it, I'm pretty sure I'll learn to be at least as fast as I was with the Ruger mags. Other than being annoyed this is even an issue, I guess working within these (idiotic California) rules isn't that big of a deal after all.

Thanks again guys.

[Eljay]

Originally Posted by BigJ

Exactly Eljay! I earned my patch with a 10/22, and am looking to now earn it with a centerfire. Once I get there with the AR, the Garand is next and after that, who knows... maybe a K31?

I'm going to stay away from the Mag Magnet and instead go with Thordson's UBBT:

Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured.

The UBBT should work fine. You'll probably save a second versus just having a punch or chamber flag handy since you'll end up with the next magazine in your hand. It's like the 10/22 - it's not exactly what you would want during a home invasion or the kinds of competition where the time's part of the score, but there's enough wiggle room in the Appleseed time limits that as long as you practice some it shouldn't affect you too much.

[flynPb]

Regarding cheats/defeats that make the bullet-button easier to operate in California . . .
1. Last weekend I was told by an instructor to seriously consider the magnet 'just at the range' and then remove it when I cassed up the AR-15 to go home and in that situation I'd be fine.
2. Two people showed up at Appleseed events with Radlock devices. Those are temporary defeating mechanisms for the (Calif) required mag-lock. Just like with the magnet, I am not sure if Appleseed instructors are unified with some sort of policy when it comes to magazine locks. I have read numerous times not to even show up with illegal magazines. But question if anyone supervising the firing line would say anything negative about a Mag-magnet or a Radlock device that was operating in Arizona mode.

[Eljay]

1. Other than it being a felony?
2. I wouldn't be surprised if they took more of a don't ask/don't tell policy. That's different of course than actually advising it like in #1.

As a volunteer organization the quality of instruction at various Appleseed events varies, but you would think they would at least not be advising you to commit crimes. By "instructor" do you remember the hat color? The orange hats are "instructors in training" and to get that all you have to do is to attend two Appleseeds and shoot a rifleman score a single time. It's a pretty low bar and they may not have really been brought up to speed on policy yet.

[V]

I am no longer with Appleseed but we always worked a don't ask/don't tell in the sense that we are not law enforcement. We check rifles are safe and functional but we are not law enforcement and we don't want to set ourselves up as the font of all knowledge on what is leagal or not for liability purposes. Your registration info tells you links to check CA law for yourself, bring a legal rifle.

I have seen RAWs on the line but its not my job to ask to see the paperwork.

We do have LEOs, military, etc attending AS so you never know who's on the line with you. Most LEOs I've met at AS don't want people bragging about it or being in peoples faces, they are there on their own time and don't want to get into all that.

Please be safe and don't poke the bears.

Cheers
Phil

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by Eljay

Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured.

The UBBT should work fine. You'll probably save a second versus just having a punch or chamber flag handy since you'll end up with the next magazine in your hand. It's like the 10/22 - it's not exactly what you would want during a home invasion or the kinds of competition where the time's part of the score, but there's enough wiggle room in the Appleseed time limits that as long as you practice some it shouldn't affect you too much.

Ah guess I should update this...

The UBBT worked fine and I earned my patch aok (edit: a safety flag would have worked just as well too. No need for the UBBTs, in retrospect). I also did go on to earn one with the M1 and again at a KD and in both those cases working a clip proved to be much more a challenge than any bullet button.

I've since gone and become an NRA High Power competitor and *everyone* on the line in California I've run across uses one. You learn to work with it and really, its just not a problem. An annoyance at being constantly reminded how idiotic our legislature is? Certainly. But a hindrance? Not at all (adding to the annoyance factor, but I digress).

Originally Posted by V

I am no longer with Appleseed but we always worked a don't ask/don't tell in the sense that we are not law enforcement. We check rifles are safe and functional but we are not law enforcement and we don't want to set ourselves up as the font of all knowledge on what is leagal or not for liability purposes. Your registration info tells you links to check CA law for yourself, bring a legal rifle.

I have seen RAWs on the line but its not my job to ask to see the paperwork.

We do have LEOs, military, etc attending AS so you never know who's on the line with you. Most LEOs I've met at AS don't want people bragging about it or being in peoples faces, they are there on their own time and don't want to get into all that.

Please be safe and don't poke the bears.

Cheers
Phil

That's how every volunteer at any AS event I attended acted as well. They're far more concerned with making sure you stay safe, that you learn the fundamentals and a little about our nation's history, and that all have a great time. No one seemed concerned with following behind anyone else to find legal concerns.

[bsut]

Originally Posted by navin r

a 223 is not best for Appleseed, unless you have tons of money for ammo

A rimfire rifle, even self-loading, can have a detachable magazine with up to 10 rounds capacity. Very handy for quick changes in a stage.

So if you don't have a 10/22, you might get a .22LR upper and install a normal magazine release on your AR lower.

[as_rocketman]

Originally Posted by flynPb

Regarding cheats/defeats that make the bullet-button easier to operate in California . . .
1. Last weekend I was told by an instructor to seriously consider the magnet 'just at the range' and then remove it when I cassed up the AR-15 to go home and in that situation I'd be fine.
2. Two people showed up at Appleseed events with Radlock devices. Those are temporary defeating mechanisms for the (Calif) required mag-lock. Just like with the magnet, I am not sure if Appleseed instructors are unified with some sort of policy when it comes to magazine locks. I have read numerous times not to even show up with illegal magazines. But question if anyone supervising the firing line would say anything negative about a Mag-magnet or a Radlock device that was operating in Arizona mode.

Originally Posted by V

I am no longer with Appleseed but we always worked a don't ask/don't tell in the sense that we are not law enforcement. We check rifles are safe and functional but we are not law enforcement and we don't want to set ourselves up as the font of all knowledge on what is leagal or not for liability purposes. Your registration info tells you links to check CA law for yourself, bring a legal rifle.

Well... I am still an active RWVA Instructor and I'm not quite satisfied with either of the above.

The rules -- and common sense -- say to bring a rifle that you are permitted to own. Over the years I have, on three occasions, been asked whether it would be "OK enough" to disable a Radlock or bust out some magazines of questionable provenience. The answer is no. If you aren't compliant and I find out about it, I'll ask you to return your rifle to a permitted configuration or get it off my line and borrow a loaner instead.

You've got to help us out with this. There are a few individuals who would love nothing more than to shut us down. Any excuse will do.

Yep, it's a stupid law, you'll get no argument from me. Yep, bullet buttons actually make rifles slightly less safe. But that's how it is. Don't like it, work with us to get the Constitution restored.

Besides, un-bullet-buttoning an AR-15 isn't going to help your AQT scores. You might think it will, but it won't. When you're ready you won't find a BB any trouble at all. I've shot the score with a stripper-clip fed bolt-action .30-06, and you can too.

[flynPb]

Thanks for all of this week's replies to this issue, and for clarifying the topic.

On reflection, it is a mystery why the Orange-hatted [well meaning] instructor wanted to enlighten me about mag-Magnets. I already have read on other threads how [anytime and anywhere in California] a magnet is not permitted. But I UN-characteristically held back my argument and silently nodded my head to this instructor's - - um - - guidance/suggestion.
The staff at Appleseed events are the most patient and conscientious volunteers that I have encountered in many years. But my current magazines all had Thordsen's UBBT's installed already, so its curious how this topic even popped up on Sunday, the 30th of May. I was even at the point that on the rapid stages, I had a few seconds to spare before the anticipated "Cease Fire" calls.
Yes my accuracy could still be improved a little during AQT's and especially my consistency can be improved even more. Thank you once more.

[Eljay]

If you're having consistency issues try to fit in a little more NPOA checking after each reload or transition. It just takes one breath and as you're seeing you have time even on the rapid fire stages.

[scoutcamper]

Reporting back on this zombied thread, I scored my full distance rifleman with a bullet-buttoned AR a month ago with no issues at all, the bullet button makes little to no difference on your shooting. It all comes down to the nut behind the trigger....

[Dr. Jones]

Originally Posted by as_rocketman

It can be done, don't worry. I can get through an AQT with my M1917, bolt action and five-round stripper clips, without even hurrying. Think of it as a challenge. You'll be fine.

How do you do the mag/ change on an Enfield? 2- 5round stripper clips? or load all 10? 2 separate magazines 2 & 8?

[Eljay]

If you have two 10 round magazines that would be easiest, 2 and 8.

I've done it 5 and 5 but that was with 5 round magazines.

If I do it again I'll probably use the K-31 and it has a detachable 6 round mag. But extra mags are hard to find - they're removable but more for cleaning so they didn't make a lot of extras. They used 6 round chargers to refill. But then do you preload 4 and charge 6? Preload 5, then charge 6 more and just eject the empty at the end? Does the shoot boss just pull something that seems fair out of their imagination depending on what you have with you? Or are the guidelines that detailed?

[Dr. Jones]

being a bolt, I think you are already at a disadvantage. the magazines are a pain to remove on the enfield. it can be done
When I shot my k77, I got the ok to do 5 and 5 because it still required a mag change

[Eljay]

I'm not sure anybody cares all that much as long as you're keeping it roughly equivalent. I think people with tubes load 11 and eject an extra round at some point as a "close enough" simulation.

I gather that some folks with semi autos do the mag change while they still have one in the chamber so they save having to hit the slide release or whatever their gun requires to get rolling again after running empty. So if they allow that it's not so much about the mechanics as forcing some action that will disrupt your NPOA one more time in the middle somewhere.

[as_rocketman]

Originally Posted by Dr. Jones

How do you do the mag/ change on an Enfield? 2- 5round stripper clips? or load all 10? 2 separate magazines 2 & 8?

With bolt action, 5 and 5 is acceptable. The AQT is based on the "real" AQT for Garands, but before the Army developed that test for Garands -- before the Garand -- there was a similar test for M1903s and M1917s. I use five-round stripper clips, just as the rifle was once employed in battle. (I use Swedish Mauser stripper clips, but that's another story.)

The whole point of the 2 and 8 is to force a position change and reacquisition of NPOA. With a bolt action, you're doing that on every shot... I'll even allow no mag changes with a bolt gun, personally, but my Enfield won't hold 10. (Nor does it have a detachable magazine -- floorplate only. It's not the same as the British Lee Enfield.)