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CGSSA Shoots, Meets and Range Stories Set up and organize shoots and meets and share your shooting range stories.

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  #41  
Old 01-17-2014, 3:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Ronin2 View Post
I was just at the West End Gun Club monthly meeting. The clubs election results were announced and the two guys who sued the club and cost it over $30,000 in legal fees won, Larry Lipson and Scott Dexter, the new president and treasurer respectively.

What lunatics. One of the things Lipson and Dexter sued the club over was to get access to the clubs membership list to send out campaign statements directly to the membership. The board of directors offered to have the company who does the clubs mailings to mail out whatever Lipson/Dexter wanted but it would NOT hand over the list of names, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses and any other personal information of its membership. That is why Lipson/Dexter sued the club...saying that "CA Corporate Codes require that every member has a right to have a copy of the member ship list".

The first thing out of President Lipson's mouth after taking the oath of office and sitting down in the presidents chair was to remind everyone that ANY MEMBER has a right to get a copy of the complete membership list including all contact information, INCLUDING THE PERSONAL INFORMATION OF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS who are members. He went on to say that he was mentioning it since this was membership renewal season and any member who had an expectation of privacy as a member of West End Gun Club should think again about remaining a member. He then said he would send everyone who wanted an e mail copy of the relevant Corporate Codes section. This is the guy who sued the club to get the list and the old president/board fought tooth and nail to prevent that from happening. IN fact the court accepted the clubs solution, also acceptable under the same corporations code section, and Lipson/Dexter rejected the solution the club offered and the judge agreed to.

I am now going to have to get a P.O. . Box to give to West End Gun Club as my new address. I do not want my home address getting into the hands of the wrong person under Lipson's administration and endangering my family. This is just like that whole debacle back east with the journalist who got all the CCW holders names and contact info and posted them on line...a virtual shopping list of homes to burglarize for gangsters looking for guns.


Lipson then went to on to talk about his big campaign promise of wanting to reduce the dues to $90 from the current $240. He had done NO formal financial analysis, pro-forma forecasts and had never even reviewed the clubs financial records prior to pulling that number out of thin air and selling it to the membership in his campaign... LOL! By my calculations, using the financial statement that the old Treasurer provided at the beginning of the meeting ( and has provided at every meeting I have been to in the last 5 years); with 1600 members @$90/yr the club will just have $144,000: only just enough to cover its annual employee wages of $113,000 and workers comp of $13,500! After hearing about his lack of hard numbers to back up his dues plans, it was no surprise to hear that Lipson had been to only one board meeting in over four years, explaining his total ignorance about the numbers and the rules for running a board meeting.

Someone else brought up Lipson's desire to shut down most all of the organized shooting matches on the weekends to permit more "plinker members" access to the shooting bays... but another person brought up the club's 503(c) organizational purpose/stated mission was to promote safe shooting and organized shooting sports.

Not one of the members of the board of directors was happy with this guy... and all noted that none of his campaign promises can be accomplished without board or member approval.

To me it seems this is just like the presidential campaign with Obama...Lipson made promises for lower dues (taxes) and more freedom (range access for plinkers) all the time knowing he cant deliver any of it on his own.

Lipson also needs to a tutor on "Roberts Rules". The guy lost control of the meeting and never got it back once he was sworn in. He and his partner, Scott Dexter, the treasurer tried to go through the swearing in ceremony without raising their right hands and without repeating the oaths of office but some little old guy called them on it and made them say it again out loud in front of the room with their right hands raised.

Lipson and Dexter... have no plan or idea what they are doing. They seem to want to return the club to the old days 14 years ago when Dexter was last treasurer when it had 650 paying members and everything was the good ole boy seat of the pants management method. Dexter even talked about hiring a CPA to do his job for him.. lol.

One of the kids next to me recorded the whole meeting on his Iphone.. so if anyone has any doubts about any of this...the proof exists

To all the West End Gun Club Members who voted for this guy and his sidekick (Dexter)... you all were PENNY WISE AND DOLLAR DUMB voting for a dues decrease that can not happen and is not feasable for a club like West End. Dont ever wonder how Obama could be elected by just lying and telling people what they wanted to hear.... just look in the mirror. You will all get exactly what you deserve now from a Lipson administration, just like all the American voters are getting from Obama: two guys who have NO IDEA what they are doing and never had a plan at all... just winging it...lol
You say that California corporate code requires disclosure per Lipson/Dexter...can you site what code that is?
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  #42  
Old 01-17-2014, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by skyking13 View Post
You say that California corporate code requires disclosure per Lipson/Dexter...can you site what code that is?
Here is the link that WEGC Pres. Lipson provided the membership on the members only forum;

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...file=6330-6338
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  #43  
Old 01-17-2014, 6:13 PM
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Kestryll Kestryll is offline
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Originally Posted by Ronin2 View Post
Lipson and Dexter could not prove that opinion to be fact in court. And until he has some facts to back it up... It's all Repeating the lie over and over won't make fact but again, the Lipson/ Dextet camp continue to follow the Democrat/Obama play book like liars they are.
Given the clear agenda and bias in your original post I don't give your opinion any more validity then I do JMP's.

I don't really care what is going on with WEGC nor do I give any credibility to what I see posted.

Frankly the only time I hear about it is when someone posts something unflattering about the Officers and someone else reports it demanding that they be silenced.

That really doesn't earn a favorable opinion from me.
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Last edited by Kestryll; 01-17-2014 at 6:15 PM..
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  #44  
Old 01-17-2014, 6:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JMB Fan View Post
If anyone is spreading FUD its you. You and your little clique of board members and discipline shooters are the ones screaming and crying how the sky is falling and how this new president is just like Obama and is going to ruin WEGC. The problem we have at WEGC is guys like you who try to bully and threaten people and have gotten away with it for the last 4 years. Now that we have a new president who is going to break up your little private range that the rest of us pay for and open it up to more shooters and family's you can't handle it. I'm not going to apologize to you or anyone else. You are nothing more than a carnival barker.
The Lipson / Dexter consortium ;



When you can't defend your position with the facts then everyone in opposition MUST be part of a conspiracy.

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Originally Posted by JMB Fan View Post
The problem we have at WEGC is guys like you who try to bully and threaten people and have gotten away with it for the last 4 years... You are nothing more than a carnival barker.


I have NEVER bullied ANYONE, I have never run for or held office at WEGC despite having been frequently urged to do so. I go to the range to shoot.. both in organized matches (LESA, 3-gun and IDPA) and as a "plinker" on shooting bays usually during the week and in the evenings when the tinfoil hat crowd are not around.

What I DID do for the range, within three months of joining after Lake Elsinore Sportsmen's Association (LESA) range of which I was a member and on whose Board of Directors I served, was closed down by its landlord, was develop the strategy that allowed WEGC to purchase the land from the land owner. Specifically, LESA was evicted from its property with 60 days notice from the landlord. We had almost $75,000 saved in a "lead clean up fund" unused as the old landlord would not allow us back onto the property after the eviction to do the lead cleanup... so LESA was a club with no range or purpose but $74,000. By law, the money could not be refunded to the members and was just sitting there. When Chuck Heron, the president of WEGC at the time wrote in the presidents corner in the newsletter I think in Jan or Feb, that the WEGC landlord had asked of the club was interested in buying the land but that the club had no money to take advantage of the opportunity.

I jumped on that and got the rest of the LESA Board of Directors that included current WEGC members Bill Florey, Terry Ahlgren, George Zagursky and myself, gunsmith Stewart Wilson and Max Joseph and a couple others I cant remember right now, to authorize me to negotiate with WEGC a deal that in exchange for waiving the WEGC initiation fee for all former LESA members in good standing who chose to join WEGC that year ( I had a fiduciary responsibility to the members of LESA to get them some benefit for the money transferred to WEGC), LESA would transfer to WEGC the aprox. $74,000 in the lead fund to WEGC to be used as the down payment for the land purchase. I knew from my coprotate banking days that one 503(c) can transfer any or all of its assets to a similar 503(c) without any penalty or restrictions from the State or Federal government. Chuck Heron and the WEGC Board of Directors agreed to hose terms and the transfer was made, ONLY AFTER Chuck Heron, myself and Terry Ahlgren met with the owners and negotiated the sale. I got the landlord to carry the note on 10 yr term at 7.5% interest with interest payable monthly and single annual principle reductions due in the spring after all the dues were collected and the club could make the payment. I also made sure to negotiate the easement across the 80 acre parcel between WEGC and Lytle creek for our roadway to include the right to do any maintenance including grading and hydraulic engineering to maintain WEGC member access. I also made a presentation to the WEGC board a pro forma forecast for needed membership growth and dues increases to make sure that we could service the debt and continue to have funds to run and improve the club. My suggestion was followed. I was somewhat disappointed with the NRA as I lobbied them to the point of speaking with Wayne LaPierre several times to try and get the NRA to contribute some money either as a gift or loan to add to our down payment. The NRA, much to my disappointment declined, offering access to its range development program. They ignored my point that WEGC was a 100% NRA club and in a couple decades, owning its own property and being an in holding surrounded by USDA Forrest land, may be one of the only ranges left for NRA members to shoot at, all the others closed down for development encroachment.

So YEAH... I and many of the board members who have been contributing time and effort to run the club and guide it through the maze of regulation, potential regulation and have an interest in the club continuing to exist, grow and improve itself just as all the other members who have given of their time, expertise, money and effort resulting in the club and facility we have now. I am concerned that the new president:

- Only attended ONE board meeting in the last four years and maybe longer and is totally unfamiliar with the governmental, financial and long term improvement plans facing the club.
- Sued the club to get access to everyone's contact information.. an attempt that thankfully was unsuccessful because of the VIGEROUS defense put up by that board of directors you condemn as bullies. BTW...the Judge accepted the clubs alternative to handing over the membership list and Lipson/Dexter never availed themselves of it... indicating to me that he just wanted the membership list. This lawsuit cost the club over $30,000 in legal fees and increased insurance premiums.
- Campaigned on a platform of reducing full membership dues to $90 /yr WITHOUT ANY FINANCIAL ANALYSIS AT ALL, no familiarity with the clubs revenues and expenses, its contractual obligations or its already in place long term capital improvement plan...THAT GOES BEYONG INCOMPETANCE and boarders on negligence and lying to the membership to get votes.. which worked. the $90/year will barely cover the payroll, workers comp insurance and after the Lipson/Dexter lawsuit, the much more expensive Errors and omissions insurance policy.
- "Forgot to mention" to the membership while running for office that changing the dues, the match schedule etc, all his agenda, require a majority of the board to support it; an intellectually disingenuous act if not a down right campaign lie.
- Neither of them raised their right hands and spoke the oath of office when being sworn in and had to be asked to do it again in front of everyone with their hands raised and speaking the oath of office clearly. Dexter's explanation was that he was "speaking it in his head"....
- Dexter went on to say he would ask the board to approve hiring a CPA to basically "do his work for him".. things that the current treasurer has been doing as part of his job responsibilities.
- Neither bothered to familiarize themselves with the clubs publicly available to any member long term development plans, environmental stewardship plan or the capital improvement plan... as if they didn't expect to win...
- They clearly have no understanding or "Roberts Rules' which are the governing rules the club is administered with.
- Lipson had no prepared comments to "reconcile with the board" for the benefit of the club/membership as a true leader would and in fact lost control of the meeting as soon as he took the oath of office. In case you do not know the presidents job is to run the board meetings. He may vote on all board votes but has no power to propose any motions whatsoever.
- Dexter claimed in his campaign letter the the membership that "he" was responsible for buying the clubs property... an outright lie. I spoke with Chuck Heron, then the president of WEGC, after I saw Dexter's claim in late Nov. 2013 just to make sure my recollections were accurate with his recollection of the process/events. The only reason Dexter was inviolved at all was Heron did not have time to respond to the landlords inquiry so he ASSIGNED the task to the clubs then treasurer, Dexter. Dexter had little to nothing to do with the negotiations and NOTHING at all to do with coming up with the $$$ to make the deal happen!

I never knew Larry Lipson before I heard about his litigation with the club. I can not attest to his motivation for running for president but I do not think he has the knowledge or background to fulfill his fiduciary responsiblites of office and based on his immediate use of the word "we" referring to himslef and Dexter instead of the correct and approriate "the board" when discussing the changes he wants to institute, I dont think he has the ability to be the team player that the job calls for. I hope he rises to the occasion and is a good president but I think that Larry likes the idea of being president of WEGC far more than he will like the massive amount of work, responsibility and need for compromise to actually govern...must my opinion based on Larry's ADMITTED lack of research on the club finances before running on a dues cut and his lack of preparation before accepting the presidents gavel last tuesday night

As for Dexter, he was a competant treasureer back when the club had only 650 paid members and a much simpler existance. I do not know if he wil be able to handle the club's books and finances at its current siz and complexity or not. I hope he can.

It was the same kind of low budget minimalist thinking and planning when Dexter was treasurer last that had the club unable to take advantage of buying its property when the oppertunity developed. Lipson and Dexter want to return the club to the day s of living hand to mouth/by the seat of its pants and in this day and age, money is the key to a shooting ranges success and ability to survive in the face of flodding, fires, governmental intrusion and regulation.

So JMB.. what have YOU done to contribute to the club's success? Have you ever attended a board of directors meeting other than to have your membership approved? Contributed labor, professional expertise, equipment, money(other than your initiation and dues), served on a commitee????

Last edited by Ronin2; 01-17-2014 at 7:42 PM..
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  #45  
Old 01-17-2014, 8:02 PM
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We all want the same thing from the club. A great place to shoot, but the way it is setup now its not fair to the majority of members and that is a fact. I don't know Larry Lipson at all and I don't really know if he can run the club in a responsible way. But I'm willing to give him a chance because of the way the club is being run now. We need to find a happy medium not the 90% discipline shooters to 10% plinkers range time. Thank you for all you have done for the club but it still doesn't change the facts, that the club needs to find range time for both groups. I find it hard to believe that you cant see how unfair the range allotment time is now. But you really do know how unfair it is in your favor and I guess I would be pissed off too if a new president came along and wanted to take my ball away from me and go play with the other kids. This club is for all 1600 members not just the 140 or so discipline shooters.

Last edited by JMB Fan; 01-17-2014 at 8:14 PM..
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  #46  
Old 01-17-2014, 8:22 PM
Ronin2 Ronin2 is offline
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Originally Posted by JMB Fan View Post
We all want the same thing from the club. A great place to shoot, but the way it is setup now its not fair to the majority of members and that is a fact. I don't know Larry Lipson at all and I don't really know if he run the club in a responsible way. But I'm willing to give him a chance because of the way the club is being run now. We need to find a happy medium not the 90% discipline shooters to 10% plinkers range time. Thank you for all you have done for the club but it still doesn't change the facts, that the club needs to find range time for both groups. I find it hard to believe that you cant see how unfair the range allotment time is now. But you really do know how unfair it is in your favor and I guess I would be pissed off too if a new president came along and wanted to take my ball away from me and go play with the other kids. This club is for all 1600 members not just the 140 or so discipline shooters.
Well what YOU have done is vote for a man who has NO previous experience running anything remotely like WEGC. He has never held an elective office or volunteered to serve on any members commitee in his 15 years at WEGC. He is not familar with the rules by which he MUST run the club, he has no history of volunteering or doing anything for this club or any other. The ONLY qualification Larry mentions in his offical campaign statement is 15 yrs of membership; no leadership, no contributions or effort expended on behalf of the club and its membership, no professional or educational background /qualifications...NOTHING, by his own admission, that qualifies him for the job other than promising a populist type agenda(lower taxes and more freedom for the people..lol) that he KNEW he would never be able to get passed by the board. You are about to get the club you deserve, unfortunately I have to be along for the ride and will probably see a lot of what I have worked hard to help create be destroyed by incompetence. The club has some very important issues before it and I doubt you even bothered to find out want they might be before you cast your vote for "change you can believe in"...lol.

Kinda like voting in a president of the United States who has never served in the executive branch, never run and been esponsible for anything as a CEO and had a lackluster half term as the Junior Senator from Illinois where he never was the originator of a single piece of legislation....but he told people what they wanted to hear knowing if he won he didn't have be power by himself to deliver any of it. Do you know who I am taking about?


Btw... I can easily shoot all the matches I want elsewhere, usually closer to my Newport beach home, but I prefer to shoot with my friends and make new friends at the gun club I have worked hard to help build. Again.. Please answer the question;What have YOU or Larry Lipson done for the club and its membership except sitting on the sidelines and taking cheap potshots and sniping at those actually DOING SOMETHING.

Cheers!

PS: Will you get all your fellow "plinkers" to clean up all the crap they bring out into the bays to shoot at??? I know the people shooting every match I have participated in clean up when they leave.

Last edited by Ronin2; 01-17-2014 at 8:42 PM..
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  #47  
Old 01-17-2014, 8:35 PM
JMB Fan JMB Fan is offline
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I hope I do get the club I deserve, because the way the club is now its just a private boys club for 140 guys. Me and the other 1500 members have been along for the ride for the last 4 years. Its over Johnny. It's over.
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  #48  
Old 01-17-2014, 8:45 PM
Ronin2 Ronin2 is offline
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Originally Posted by JMB Fan View Post
I hope I do get the club I deserve, because the way the club is now its just a private boys club for 140 guys. Me and the other 1500 members have been along for the ride for the last 4 years. Its over Johnny. It's over.
Are you just obtuse or determined to remain a low information voter??? NONE OF WHAT LARRY PROMISED CAN BE DONE WITHOUT A MAJORITY OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS APPROVING. PERIOD. Your ignorance of the by-laws and the process speaks VOLUMES about you sir. Clearly your ignorance reflects that all you have done is "ride".

BTW, What you really should have said to be accurate, if you thought about it, is "me and the other 1100 members who didn't bother to even vote AGAIN. How do people who don't care to vote and probably never have voted in a club election, realistically expect to be represented?????Oh wait... All the need is a guy like Larry who can read their minds and therefore is justified in speaking for ALL OF THEM...lol. If it wasn't for his "bait and switch"/lie about lowering dues to $90 to the "low information" members , Larry would not have won the election. Now all you low information voters get to see a low information president and treasurer in action. I suspect you have never even read the by-laws to know what the stated purpose/mission of the club is despite all your posts about the club in this forum.

Cheers

Last edited by Ronin2; 01-17-2014 at 9:19 PM..
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  #49  
Old 01-17-2014, 8:45 PM
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This doesn't sound good. I was involved in a SCUBA diving club recently and in times past one of the members went along with the theory of member's personal info being open to all people. He took that to mean he could mass mail everybody with his business solicitations. Several members were not too happy about it. Shortly after that, personal information became on a need to know basis.
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  #50  
Old 01-17-2014, 10:42 PM
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Potential member input.

For what it's worth (probably not much since I'm not a member) a buddy and myself are (were?) planning on becoming members of WEGC. The reason we had decided on WEGC was the $240 fee and available access to the club. We both agreed that the $240 yearly fee was reasonable enough for people to join, however high enough to weed out the potential crazies. I'm not trying to sound like an elitist and understand that many nut jobs do have $240 a year to spend.

I understand that $90 a year sounds great, but will $90 a year really cover the expenses needed to keep the place in good condition? Will $90 a year cover the potential legal fees needed to fight the constant attacks from people trying to shut the place down?

I spend more than $240 a year just in FUEL to drive to BLM land.....$240 sounds fair to me.

Here's what we do and don't like (as of now)
Likes
*$240 fees
*24/7 access
*Safety
*Mandatory meetings (Good to know your clubmates)

Do not like
*lowering to $90
*Potentially not being able to take our family on a match day
*Our personal information being distributed
*Mandatory meetings (we work odd hours and may not always be available)
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Old 01-17-2014, 10:45 PM
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I would like to make clear, that what's important to my buddy and I is availability and safety. We like to be able to take our family anytime we like into a safe environment.
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Old 01-18-2014, 4:53 AM
Ronin2 Ronin2 is offline
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Originally Posted by chairmnofthboard View Post
Potential member input.

For what it's worth (probably not much since I'm not a member) a buddy and myself are (were?) planning on becoming members of WEGC. The reason we had decided on WEGC was the $240 fee and available access to the club. We both agreed that the $240 yearly fee was reasonable enough for people to join, however high enough to weed out the potential crazies. I'm not trying to sound like an elitist and understand that many nut jobs do have $240 a year to spend.

I understand that $90 a year sounds great, but will $90 a year really cover the expenses needed to keep the place in good condition? Will $90 a year cover the potential legal fees needed to fight the constant attacks from people trying to shut the place down?

I spend more than $240 a year just in FUEL to drive to BLM land.....$240 sounds fair to me.

Here's what we do and don't like (as of now)
Likes
*$240 fees
*24/7 access
*Safety
*Mandatory meetings (Good to know your clubmates)

Do not like
*lowering to $90
*Potentially not being able to take our family on a match day
*Our personal information being distributed
*Mandatory meetings (we work odd hours and may not always be available)
All excellent and valid points.

I suggest you get online to the WEGC website and complete the application so that you are put onto the waiting list for regular membership. You will need to be an NRA member as we are a 100% NRA club and the membership is needed to complete the app and get in line. Despite Larry Lipsons desire to lower the dues, we are right in line with other clubs offering similar facility's and access; anther thing Larry did not bother to research before making his campaign promise. The marketplace says our dues are at a Goodrich point and offer a good value..we have currently have 60 people on the waiting list.

A far as I know the only mandatory meeting you have to attend is your first one where the membership present votes on your application for membership after you introduce yourself. This is when you will also receive a new member orientation.

The issue of disclosure of the membership list is a very serious one. They guy who went to court to try, unsuccessfully, to get his hands on the club membership list is now president of the club and many of us do not think he will defend against that access like his predecessor. Had Larry Lipson ever attended more than one meeting in over four years he would know that WEGC has a LOT of LEO's have joined in the last few few years and the reason I have most often heard for their joining was the ability to come shooting with their family's and have a VERY LOW liklyhood of running into some dirtbag they have arrested while out with their family in an environment full of guns. I Suppose your point abut $240 vs. $90 makes sense there. Trust me the dues will never be $90 again. The club would not be able to survive and all one has to do is look any any of our lmonthly or annual profit/loss statements to figure that out...something the new president ADMITTED TO ME he did not do when he "threw out" the $90 number (to get elected).

The the other reason I have heard most often given by the LEO's for joining is the "safety of the environment versus open areas or public ranges.




Quote:
Originally Posted by chairmnofthboard View Post
I would like to make clear, that what's important to my buddy and I is availability and safety. We like to be able to take our family anytime we like into a safe environment.
WEGC is a very safe environment and we have excellent professional range staff to help ensure it stays that way. Additionally the by laws give the club the ability to expel anyone found to be unsafe in their behavior. One guy was expelled in 2013 for gross weapons safety violations.

The 24/7!axcess and the 100% NRA club wee every important to me in my choice as I had just lost my prior club when it was evicted from its rented property. That's why I was so adamant about getting WEGc to buy its property...and did so much to ensure that that happened... I had just had the land pulled out from under me at another 24/7 access club. I am often out at the club late at night training in low light/night time conditions. I seldom see it but me,vers can camp out at the range, with no open flame fires/cooking as fire is the biggest risk we have out there. Also NO SMOKING other than inside your private vehicle (preferably with the windos up..lol)

Last edited by Ronin2; 01-18-2014 at 5:06 AM..
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Old 01-18-2014, 6:41 AM
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Ronin -

Another potential member here, so as above maybe my input isn't worth anything, but I note that you never address JMB's fundamental concern that access to the club is disproportionately given to a minority of the membership who participate in the shooting disciplines. I get that perhaps the new leadership has made a promise they won't be able to deliver on without the cooperation of the rest of the board, but that doesn't address JMB's concern, or indeed even whether it's valid.

The reality of WEGC is that Limited memberships are all that are available right now. My own reality is that I would rarely have the opportunity to enjoy the range on weekdays, and most often when I did that would be on holidays when Limited members are similarly not allowed to use the range.

I don't currently compete. Perhaps, you might argue that I should, and that it would be a benefit to my shooting. You might very well be right about that, but regardless that's not a major factor in my considerations right now.

So, my biggest concern is that I might end up paying for a membership that isn't really worth much to me because during the days and times when I would most be available to shoot I'm going to be looking at an overcrowded firing line because the competitions have taken much of the range at those same times. I don't know if that's the reality, but I hear enough grumbling about it that it remains a concern.
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Old 01-18-2014, 8:17 AM
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Ronin -

Another potential member here, so as above maybe my input isn't worth anything, but I note that you never address JMB's fundamental concern that access to the club is disproportionately given to a minority of the membership who participate in the shooting disciplines. I get that perhaps the new leadership has made a promise they won't be able to deliver on without the cooperation of the rest of the board, but that doesn't address JMB's concern, or indeed even whether it's valid.

The reality of WEGC is that Limited memberships are all that are available right now. My own reality is that I would rarely have the opportunity to enjoy the range on weekdays, and most often when I did that would be on holidays when Limited members are similarly not allowed to use the range.

I don't currently compete. Perhaps, you might argue that I should, and that it would be a benefit to my shooting. You might very well be right about that, but regardless that's not a major factor in my considerations right now.

So, my biggest concern is that I might end up paying for a membership that isn't really worth much to me because during the days and times when I would most be available to shoot I'm going to be looking at an overcrowded firing line because the competitions have taken much of the range at those same times. I don't know if that's the reality, but I hear enough grumbling about it that it remains a concern.
Cnynrat

I don't want to discourage anyone from becoming a member at WEGC. Its a great place to shoot but it could be better. As you have noticed Ronin hasn't addressed my concerns at all. All he does is continue to attack me as an Obama supporter and low infomation voter and spew his BS. The firing line can get busy on weekends and on holidays for sure, but I have also seen it almost empty in the late afternoon. The back bays that are open when a match is on are usually taken pretty quickly. I would encourage you to try discipline also. The points I make are valid that's why he won't address them. You have to understand that the discipline shooters have turned this club into their very own private range at the expense of the majority of other members and don't want to see anything change. All you have to do is look at the title of his thread to fully understand the way they think, as they know better then you and are the only ones capable and smart enough to run the club. "The inmates have taken over the asylum" they dont want the inmates to have a voice. It kinda sounds like the government we have now and he calls me the Obama supporter. I still think you should come out and become a limited member and take a look around. Whether the new president can make the needed changes to WEGC I dont know but I guess time will tell.

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Old 01-18-2014, 11:40 AM
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JMB - Thanks for the encouragement.
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Old 01-18-2014, 2:49 PM
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I've been a full member for years and like most have never been to a board meeting other than the first one where I became a member.

I will admit that at times the disciplines using the back bays so often on weekends was a bit annoying. After all, I paid the extra money to use them and they always seem to be taken up.

Over the years, I've softened my view a bit and now it really doesn't bother me. I occasionally join in an IDPA match though just for fun. Even when there are matches, I can usually find a place to shoot.

What does worry me is some arbitrary decision/promise to lower full member fees to $90. I want to save money as much as the next guy, but full member fees should be set based on what funds are necessary to properly run the club, AND ensure we have adequate funds for improvements and repairs. There needs to be meaningful analysis behind the yearly fees and not some arbitrary number, particularly if it leaves the club underfunded and not able to maintain the grounds.

If that number is $240, I'm happy to pay it as long as the money is going to where it is supposed to be. I've never heard of any evidence of financial wrongdoing at the club. Accusations? Sure, lot's of them, but accusations are not proof.
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Old 01-18-2014, 3:27 PM
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I was at the range today shooting the LESA match, A two gun handgun/shotgun combat match. The LESA match has five stages and uses five of the clubs eleven shooting bays. There was a smAll cowboy match using bay two only. Given all that claims of members/plinkers being shut out of the shoting bays on match days, I decided to conduct a usage survey today and elbow are the results;

The LESA match was attended by 21 competitors of which fifteen were WEGC members and six were guests. Therefore 71.4% of the LESA match participants were WEGC members.


At 0900 hrs
Cowboy match; Bay 2
LESA; bay 3,5,6,10 and 11
Plinkers; 0
Empty bays; bays 1,4,7,8,9


At 1045 hrs

Cowboy match; bay 2
LESA; Bays 3,5,6,10,11
Plinkers; bays 4,8
Empty bays; bays 1,7,9

1130 hrs
Cowboy match; bay 2
LESA match; bay 3,5,6,10,11
Plinkers ; bay 4,7,8,9
Empty bays; bay 1

1315 hrs
Cowboy match; bay 2
LESA match ; over
Empty bays; bays 3,5,6
Plinkers; bays 1,4,7,8,9,10,11

Of the plinkers at 1315 hrs, usage broke down a follows;

Bay 1. 1 member
Bay 4. 1 member 2 guests
Bay 7. 2 members 2 guests
Bay 8. 1 member. 2 guests
Bay 9. 1 member 1 guest
Bay 10 2 members
Bay 11. 2 members 1 guest


Utilization report;

LESA: five bays used for 21 particpants with 15 WEGC = members per bay factor is "3 WEGC members per bay utilized".

Cowboy Match; one bay used for 22 participants with 7 WEGC = Members per bay factor is "7 WEGCmembers per bay utilized"

Plinkers; @1315 hrs; seven bays used by 10 WEGC members and 8 guests and the members per bay factor is "1.42 WEGC members per bay utilized".

At 0115 hrs there were three empty unused bays (bays 3,5 and 6 just vacated by LESA)

The front public range use was lite to moderate. When I get home. Will post photos of the front firing lines taken at 0900, 1130 and 0120 hrs.

There was at least one unused bay the entire time the matches were running. At least today, the scheduled displine matches resulted in at least 100% improvement in members per bay utilized than the plinkers. I wonder what will be done when, if the matches are all cancelled, all the bays have 1.4 members per bay?? Will it then move on to "some members are more equal than others? Will there be time limits set like the gyms put on stationary bikes? And with $90 dues and no emplyees wh will oversee and manage that process? All the "plinkers " who volunteer and help build the club (LOL)? Or will everyone just be left to "sort it out among themselves??

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Old 01-18-2014, 3:35 PM
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how dare you try to bring facts into the argument
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Old 01-18-2014, 3:43 PM
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Ronin - If that's a typical Saturday then it sounds like the concerns about there not being enough space for plinkers seems exaggerated. Thanks for taking the time to post that.
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Old 01-18-2014, 3:45 PM
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Ronin - If that's a typical Saturday then it sounds like the concerns about there not being enough space for plinkers seems exaggerated. Thanks for taking the time to post that.
devil's advocate.... how many members don't even come up because they assume that all the back ranges are going to be tied up due to all the matches?
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Old 01-18-2014, 3:51 PM
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devil's advocate.... how many members don't even come up because they assume that all the back ranges are going to be tied up due to all the matches?
Good pont... But if the were no matches and the bays were taken up by the average 1.4 members per guest..then there would be 15.4 members utilizing the bays and however many guests they being. You can make an arguement that the plinkers would not be in the bays for the four to five hours that the matches are running and resultant "turn" in bays would improve the plinkers utilization BUT the plinkers that were in bays 4 and 8 at 1045 were still there when I left at 1330 hrs. S who knows how to forecast/predict that.

With the matches there were 22 members using 6 bays with another four bays available @ an average of 1.4 members per bay resulting in 27.6 total members usage of bays.

All the discipline matches are done n later than 1400 hrs regardless. I think the club can and should look real hard at matches with low member participation but I don't think that is much of a problem.

Last edited by Ronin2; 01-18-2014 at 3:57 PM..
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Old 01-18-2014, 3:53 PM
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And this is what I've seen. Empty bays on match day. I think the real problem seems to be when long range shooting takes place of any kind, for any match it makes the back bays unusable. I hope it doesn't come to a protracted war, but I see war a brewing over this.
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Old 01-18-2014, 3:55 PM
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devil's advocate.... how many members don't even come up because they assume that all the back ranges are going to be tied up due to all the matches?
Perhaps, but if the result of that behavior is typical usage such as today, then maybe that's a good thing?

I have an impression that the long distance matches may be more of a problem though. Don't those preclude the use of many of the bays by anyone? Does that force all the plinkers to the main firing line?

I guess I'm coming around to the conclusion that I should just join as a limited member and see for myself just how bad it is.
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Old 01-18-2014, 4:01 PM
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Perhaps, but if the result of that behavior is typical usage such as today, then maybe that's a good thing?

I have an impression that the long distance matches may be more of a problem though. Don't those preclude the use of many of the bays by anyone? Does that force all the plinkers to the main firing line?

I guess I'm coming around to the conclusion that I should just join as a limited member and see for myself just how bad it is.
I think people should always be encouraged to fully utilize the facility.

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Old 01-18-2014, 5:04 PM
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Ronin

Maybe you can go up to the range tomorrow and get us a head count and an open bay count when the PBR match is on or next weekend when 3 gun is going on Sat. One day out of the month is not the rule but the exception especially on a holiday weekend.
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Old 01-18-2014, 5:12 PM
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Ronin

Maybe you can go up to the range tomorrow and get us a head count and an open bay count when the PBR match is on or next weekend when 3 gun is going on Sat. One weekend out of the month is not the rule but the exception especially on a holiday weekend.
Actually,maybe YOU or Larry Lipson can since the two of you are claiming the plinkers are being shut out. I don't shoot those disciplines. Based on that I see during the LESA match each month and the IDPA match when I shoot it... Today's usage is very typical.

Since you the are claiming the shut out of plinkers, why not offer some and empirical data like I have instead of FUD/ urban legend which is al you have until you have FACTS to back up your arguments. I am actually surprised that Larry has never done a survey like I have after all these years of screaming about the issue.

I suspect that there is a shut out on weekends when the back bays are closed for the long range rifle. I have been shut out of the bays several times when the long range rifle pads are used... And all the remaining bays were taken by plinkers who got there before me. All I did was head on over the the public range and do my shooting...Where I met some nice fellow members I would never have met otherwise.

Gather your data and make a case people can respect.

Last edited by Ronin2; 01-18-2014 at 5:21 PM..
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Old 01-18-2014, 5:29 PM
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I think people should always be encouraged to fully utilize the facility.
I agree, and I probably could have said that better. As a potential member, I'm interested in the reality of how busy the range is on weekends, which is when I would be able to use the range.

And don't worry, if I do join, I won't be shooting any fruits or vegetables. ;-)
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Old 01-18-2014, 5:32 PM
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I agree, and I probably could have said that better. As a potential member, I'm interested in the reality of how busy the range is on weekends, which is when I would be able to use the range.

And don't worry, if I do join, I won't be shooting any fruits or vegetables. ;-)
Go to the club website and complete an application to get on the waiting list. There are currently about 65 people on it and there may be as many as 150 openings this year.

You MUST be an NRA member to join and must maintain your NRA membership to remain a WEGC member.

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Old 01-18-2014, 5:47 PM
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Actually,maybe YOU or Larry Lipson can since the two of you are claiming the plinkers are being shut out. I don't shoot those disciplines. Based on that I see during the LESA match each month and the IDPA match when I shoot it... Today's usage is very typical.

Since you the are claiming the shut out of plinkers, why not offer some and empirical data like I have instead of FUD/ urban legend which is al you have until you have FACTS to back up your arguments. I am actually surprised that Larry has never done a survey like I have after all these years of screaming about the issue.

I suspect that there is a shut out on weekends when the back bays are closed for the long range rifle. I have been shut out of the bays several times when the long range rifle pads are used... And all the remaining bays were taken by plinkers who got there before me. All I did was head on over the the public range and do my shooting...Where I met some nice fellow members I would never have met otherwise.

Gather your data and make a case people can respect.

Ya, unbiased and without an agenda empirical data. You suspect there is a shutout when long range rifle pad is being used, that's funny. I thought what I said is FUD and urban legend and today's usage is typical. You said yourself you have been shutout so is that FUD too. You cant have it both ways. Your survey is from one day on a holiday weekend so how is that typical for any given month. I think it's you who needs to get his facts in order.

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Old 01-18-2014, 5:57 PM
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PBR match is tomorrow, I'll be there. Probably between 15 and 20 will attend. As I mentioned before, we start at the 500m pad, then usually around 11:00am move to the 200m pad which opens up the first 5 or 6 bays. Wrap up by 1:00pm and everything is open after that. So, for 5 hours of the day, the back range is closed, then for another 2 hours or so half open or half closed depending on how you look at it.
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Old 01-18-2014, 5:58 PM
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My point is, if you want a back bay tomorrow, come in the afternoon.
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Old 01-18-2014, 6:11 PM
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Ya, unbiased and without an agenda empirical data. You suspect there is a shutout when longe range rifle pad is being used, that's funny. I thought what I said is FUD and urban legend and today's usage is typical. You said yourself you have been shutout so is that FUD too. You cant have it both ways. Your survey is from one day on a holiday weekend so how is that typical for any given month. I think it's you who needs to get his facts in order.
With 1600 members and 11 shooting bays, even without the matches, people can and will get shut out. What then? Time limits and signups? Who makes those calls and enforces the rationing then? At $90 /yr in dues there will not be any paid professional employees.
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Old 01-18-2014, 6:35 PM
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With 1600 members and 11 shooting bays, even without the matches, people can and will get shut out. What then? Time limits and signups? Who makes those calls and enforces the rationing then? At $90 /yr in dues there will not be any paid professional employees.
With 1600 members and 11 shooting bays and only 140 discipline shooters tying up most of the prime time on the weekend, people will get shutout what then, so we should leave as it is right? Your argument is getting weaker. Why is it so hard for you to admit that we need to make time for more of the members and cut back some on the discipline matches. Come on, I know you can say it just try
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Old 01-18-2014, 6:43 PM
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With 1600 members and 11 shooting bays and only 140 discipline shooters tying up most of the prime time on the weekend, people will get shutout what then, so we should leave as it is right? Your argument is getting weaker. Why is it so hard for you to admit that we need to make time for more of the members and cut back some on the discipline matches. Come on, I know you can say it just try
Not at all.. There are more members per bay via the matches than via plinking. If you dont agree then Do the work to prove your point... Otherwise, the only evidence in this discussion so far (mine) proves me right and you wrong. I encourage you to prove me wrong but until you prove it to me, which is not an unreasonable request, I don't think your "hunch" is correct.

Cheers!

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Old 01-18-2014, 7:01 PM
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Not at all.. There are more members per bay via the matches than via plinking. If you dont agree then Do the work to prove your point... Otherwise, the only empirical evidence in this discussion so far (mine) proves me right and you wrong. I encourage you to prove me wrong but until you prove it to me, which is not an unreasonable request, I don't think your "hunch" is correct.

Cheers!
You are a funny guy, but not very bright. Of course there are more members per bay via the matches then via plinking. YOU OWN ALL OF THE PRIME TIME, HELLO! Like I said before your argument is getting weaker. You sound just like a carnival barker. 2nd verse same as the first. You would make a great politician, maybe you should run for president at WEGC next year, you know you could count on my vote. The bottom line is if Larry Lipson can't make any changes why are you crying so much. Don't worry be happy.

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Old 01-18-2014, 10:01 PM
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I shot LESA today, as well. Ronin2's info is fairly typical of a Saturday at the range. I didn't even know this was a holiday weekend and couldn't tell by looking at the range. I shot the match and then grabbed a bay in the back to run some drills and teach a newer shooter how to safely run a COF as it is done in the competitions. It was really slowing down by 2-2:30 pm. The sun hit the top of the West hills at around 3:20 PM. I walked up to the 200 yard pad to hit the head. There were 3 empty bays in the back section. There were 2 or 3 empty bays in the front section which consists of bays 1-6. It was getting shady back there, but there was still more than an hour of daylight left.

I think today was one of the smallest groups I have seen for LESA. We had 3 squads of 5 people and 1 squad with 6 people. We usually have 5 squads with at least 5 people on them. Maybe we had less shooters for the match since people may have had a three day weekend.

While I was in the back, I only saw one vehicle drive through as if they were looking for a place to shoot. I think I recall seeing them one of the three bays just South of where I was.

When 3 gun uses only short bays, the statistics look similar with an average of 25-35 shooters per match last year (from what I saw). The June 22nd all rifle match, that took place last year, had 72 shooters.

What really gets me about the new President, is that he didn't propose studying the numbers and making realistic changes to make range use more fair. He said he would cut out 75% of the range time for competitions- point blank. One weekend per month vs. 4 weekends. He could have proposed a change to three weekends per month or even two, but instead he chose to go extreme. He didn't propose reducing range fees. He instead said he would cut them to $90 which is a 62.5% reduction. These seem like some huge changes with no explanation as to why these numbers were picked or how it would work.

How do you fit 8-9 competitions into 2 days? You would have to run at least two at a time and two groups per day. That is not possible. The other option is to get rid of some competitions, which cuts income for the club and reduces the quality and offerings of the club. If we had that many competitions in one weekend, the plinkers would be *****ing that they can never use the range on that particular weekend. We would be forced to occupy every bay, and the limited members would be using a good portion of the front firing line.

Hey Ronin2, thanks for taking some notes and providing actual facts as to how the range is utilized. It is true that the competitions do use a noticeable portion of the range, but it also serves a good purpose for a good number of people while still leaving room for plinkers. People often make assumptions and never actually look into the facts. Would be competitors have often had an excuse for not giving a match a try, and sometimes learn that they never researched the topic or came out to see what really happens and what is needed to participate. People don't realize that the competitions can be like going to a shooting gallery (do those even exist anymore?) or miniature golf. You don't have to be a pro or have certain equipment. I have heard some of the same guys say that the matches take up the entire range and they can't plink on the same days.

I have found that it is best to see what is going on for myself. I have sometimes been hesitant to go out to plink on a weekend because it might be busy, but I have also met new people and have only had to share berms a few times. I also check the calendar all the time to plan my trips. I was reluctant to try competitions about 5 years ago, and drug my feet for a year before I gave 3 gun or Lesa a try. Same with lever action rifle. I found that I really enjoyed all of them. I haven't done action pistol a lot because they have had some really big crowds, as in 40-60 people. I also did skeet, when it was running. The club did offer a lot of ways to enjoy shooting. Some people use it in only one way and really limit themselves. I suppose it is a case of different strokes for different folks.
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Old 01-20-2014, 6:41 AM
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Another thing people need to think about regarding competitive shooting is that there are very few places left that offer the chance to do so. A plinker can always use public land to shoot. Competitions or other organized events are practically impossible to do on public land due to the permits and insurance required to do so. Once opportunities for competition are gone, they are gone forever. Ask yourself, would you EVER have a desire to shoot a match? If so then you way want to protect your right to do so in the future. I have competed in action pistol and PBR matches quite regularly at WEGC and the amount of revenue they bring to the club is substantial. What do you think is going to happen when there is no match revenue coming in? You would have to be kidding yourself to think that reducing dues to $90 is even a remote reality. Dues would actually need to go up to compensate for lost match revenue.

I have made the same observations as others here. When matches conclude or even when they are running with additional bays open, no one is standing around waiting for bays and there are almost always bays open when matches are running.

Its time people get involved before casting a vote for something they know absolutely nothing about. It would be better if they didn't vote at all.
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  #78  
Old 01-20-2014, 12:13 PM
CGT80 CGT80 is offline
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I went through and looked at the scores for the action pistol match, for the last year. Actually, I was looking for the number of shooters listed on the score sheet. They always have a lot of shooters.

Dec 2012 67 shooters
Jan 2013 50
April 57
May 33
June 64

It continues on like the above numbers. Pistol competitions are popular. There are a number of them at other ranges as well.

3 gun matches seem to be less common. I did read about one that was starting at Raahauges, but there was no 3 gun for the 4-5 years that I shot there.

Raahauges had Steel madness pistol matches on the odd Sundays of the month which is 2-3 per month. IPSC is every Saturday. Steel challenge and LUHT running steel alternated each month but it is now gone. The cowboys used about 8 bays on one day per month. They didn't have the rifle or rimfire competitions that we have. The match fees were also pretty high.

Our club has a lot to offer to it's members. The competitions we have are usually run smoother and finish up faster than others I have been to. We have less than some ranges as it is. I haven't been back to another range since I joined West End. Part of what drew me in was being able to do many activities in one place, which feels like home. I joined the club to help support all those activities. I could have just come to competitions but I enjoy all the other benefits it has to offer as well.

West End seemed well rounded for activities when I joined a year ago. Now the shotgun range is closed down and rifle matches have been cut back due to property issues or range time. Now the other competitions are at risk as well. It is going in the wrong direction. If the shotgun range was open, I would spend some time up there *** well. It could take some load off the other bays so families could use them.

This is a messy situation which needs some careful observation and planning to ensure that we all get our fair share of the range.
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Old 01-20-2014, 4:28 PM
JMB Fan JMB Fan is offline
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The biggest problem is that less then 150 discipline shooters take up 96 weekend days for a 92% total in 12 months. Compare that to the other 1400 members who have only 8 days total allocated for plinkers on the weekend an 8% total in 12 months. We need to have a little more even balance so we all can enjoy our range. I think if we could open up 2 or 3 more bays and maybe have some of the disciplines start at a later time of day like 1:00 pm when the range starts to thin out a little that would make a pretty big difference. We have to work together and stop fighting amongst ourselves, we have enough problems fighting all of the gun grabbers here in CA.
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Old 01-20-2014, 4:43 PM
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ke6guj ke6guj is offline
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on those 96 weekend days, what percentage of the range is taken up by the matches? All 11-12 bays? of the bays not taken up by matches, what is the percentage of occupancy of those bays?

for instance, on the 4th Sunday, the only thing I see listed is IDPA which uses 4 bays, leaving 7-8 bays left for plinkers. What is the occupancy rate of those bays at that time.





before people make wholesale changes to the system, it would be nice to see some actual numbers showing usage of all the bays and how matches affect the overall occupancy of the range.
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Last edited by ke6guj; 01-20-2014 at 4:52 PM..
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