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CGSSA Shoots, Meets and Range Stories Set up and organize shoots and meets and share your shooting range stories.

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  #1  
Old 01-14-2014, 10:50 PM
Ronin2 Ronin2 is offline
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Default West End Gun CLub... the inmates just took over the asylum

I was just at the West End Gun Club monthly meeting. The clubs election results were announced and the two guys who sued the club and cost it over $30,000 in legal fees won, Larry Lipson and Scott Dexter, the new president and treasurer respectively.

What lunatics. One of the things Lipson and Dexter sued the club over was to get access to the clubs membership list to send out campaign statements directly to the membership. The board of directors offered to have the company who does the clubs mailings to mail out whatever Lipson/Dexter wanted but it would NOT hand over the list of names, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses and any other personal information of its membership. That is why Lipson/Dexter sued the club...saying that "CA Corporate Codes require that every member has a right to have a copy of the member ship list".

The first thing out of President Lipson's mouth after taking the oath of office and sitting down in the presidents chair was to remind everyone that ANY MEMBER has a right to get a copy of the complete membership list including all contact information, INCLUDING THE PERSONAL INFORMATION OF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS who are members. He went on to say that he was mentioning it since this was membership renewal season and any member who had an expectation of privacy as a member of West End Gun Club should think again about remaining a member. He then said he would send everyone who wanted an e mail copy of the relevant Corporate Codes section. This is the guy who sued the club to get the list and the old president/board fought tooth and nail to prevent that from happening. IN fact the court accepted the clubs solution, also acceptable under the same corporations code section, and Lipson/Dexter rejected the solution the club offered and the judge agreed to.

I am now going to have to get a P.O. . Box to give to West End Gun Club as my new address. I do not want my home address getting into the hands of the wrong person under Lipson's administration and endangering my family. This is just like that whole debacle back east with the journalist who got all the CCW holders names and contact info and posted them on line...a virtual shopping list of homes to burglarize for gangsters looking for guns.


Lipson then went to on to talk about his big campaign promise of wanting to reduce the dues to $90 from the current $240. He had done NO formal financial analysis, pro-forma forecasts and had never even reviewed the clubs financial records prior to pulling that number out of thin air and selling it to the membership in his campaign... LOL! By my calculations, using the financial statement that the old Treasurer provided at the beginning of the meeting ( and has provided at every meeting I have been to in the last 5 years); with 1600 members @$90/yr the club will just have $144,000: only just enough to cover its annual employee wages of $113,000 and workers comp of $13,500! After hearing about his lack of hard numbers to back up his dues plans, it was no surprise to hear that Lipson had been to only one board meeting in over four years, explaining his total ignorance about the numbers and the rules for running a board meeting.

Someone else brought up Lipson's desire to shut down most all of the organized shooting matches on the weekends to permit more "plinker members" access to the shooting bays... but another person brought up the club's 503(c) organizational purpose/stated mission was to promote safe shooting and organized shooting sports.

Not one of the members of the board of directors was happy with this guy... and all noted that none of his campaign promises can be accomplished without board or member approval.

To me it seems this is just like the presidential campaign with Obama...Lipson made promises for lower dues (taxes) and more freedom (range access for plinkers) all the time knowing he cant deliver any of it on his own.

Lipson also needs to a tutor on "Roberts Rules". The guy lost control of the meeting and never got it back once he was sworn in. He and his partner, Scott Dexter, the treasurer tried to go through the swearing in ceremony without raising their right hands and without repeating the oaths of office but some little old guy called them on it and made them say it again out loud in front of the room with their right hands raised.

Lipson and Dexter... have no plan or idea what they are doing. They seem to want to return the club to the old days 14 years ago when Dexter was last treasurer when it had 650 paying members and everything was the good ole boy seat of the pants management method. Dexter even talked about hiring a CPA to do his job for him.. lol.

One of the kids next to me recorded the whole meeting on his Iphone.. so if anyone has any doubts about any of this...the proof exists

To all the West End Gun Club Members who voted for this guy and his sidekick (Dexter)... you all were PENNY WISE AND DOLLAR DUMB voting for a dues decrease that can not happen and is not feasable for a club like West End. Dont ever wonder how Obama could be elected by just lying and telling people what they wanted to hear.... just look in the mirror. You will all get exactly what you deserve now from a Lipson administration, just like all the American voters are getting from Obama: two guys who have NO IDEA what they are doing and never had a plan at all... just winging it...lol

Last edited by Ronin2; 01-14-2014 at 11:34 PM..
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Old 01-15-2014, 8:43 AM
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Really appreciate your insight and run down of the election/meeting results.

I just signed up for Limited two weeks ago and live very far from the meeting hall, so to read detailed play-by-play is valuable to me.

Thanks!
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:26 AM
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Its really not fair when you say the inmates are running the asylum. How is it fair when only 130 or so members have the total control over when and how much the other 1500 members have a chance to shoot. If you don't shoot in a discipline you are SOL on just about every weekend or you have to wait until they done shooting at 2:00 pm. The match directors are all on the board so they have total control over the schedule. The way the matches are set up now its totally unfair to guys like me who want a safe place to take their kids out and shoot in one of the back bays. We need to come up with a way so both groups can share the range.
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:42 AM
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What a mess. How much does the club make from match fees vs membership dues?
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:55 AM
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Sad day. I already renewed my membership but I am also getting a po box as I do not want my information distributed.

I also agree that there is no way fees can be $90 and do the improvements the club wanted to do. Not sure about every other member but I am not interested in just having a dirt berm to shoot into.

As far as the bays not be available I have been on Saturdays and Sundays and had no issue finding a private bay.

I agree that he did the typical politician trick of promising things you can't do just for votes.
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Old 01-15-2014, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JMB Fan View Post
Its really not fair when you say the inmates are running the asylum. How is it fair when only 130 or so members have the total control over when and how much the other 1500 members have a chance to shoot. If you don't shoot in a discipline you are SOL on just about every weekend or you have to wait until they done shooting at 2:00 pm. The match directors are all on the board so they have total control over the schedule. The way the matches are set up now its totally unfair to guys like me who want a safe place to take their kids out and shoot in one of the back bays. We need to come up with a way so both groups can share the range.
A guy that I shoot with, who is also a member, has the same story as you. The funny thing is that he stated that he hasn't even tried to go shoot on the weekend. I shoot in the competitions and go out to plink. LESA and 3 gun usually wrap up by 12-1 pm and usually leave a few bays open for plinkers. They only use the entire back 200 yard pad around 50% of the time. Other times we use one or two bays in the back and three bays in the front. I usually go plink after the matches, and find it isn't usually all that crowded. The 5th weekend is also left open for members.

I could understand it if they made small changes to leave more open bays. I would like to see the land next to the main range developed for more usable bays. I counted about 9 competitions that were listed on the newsletter. If all 9 actually run, there is no way to do them in two days. We do need to cater to both types of shooters. It looks like it just flopped 180 degrees and now match shooters may be SOL, if we only get one weekend per month.

It blows me away that these two guys got in. My buddy was for the lower promised dues as well, since someone gave him a promise of low rates when he signed up, but $90 from $240 is a drastic reduction in money to run and upgrade the range. I don't know the new guys, but nothing about them leaves me with a good feeling. It does look a lot like what Obama has done with this country.
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Old 01-15-2014, 11:42 AM
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What a mess. How much does the club make from match fees vs membership dues?
The OP spoke about how the club is a non profit under the IRS code 501(c)3.

If the non profit status is based upon hosting events to train people to shoot, then cancelling the event might cause them to lose the non profit status...

maybe they want the club to be a for profit business as given the membership dues less rent, property taxes, wages and such would not equate to much profit nor taxes....
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Old 01-15-2014, 1:26 PM
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Ronin2, I saw your post in the WEGC forums...spot on commentary!

Those two jokers are living in the past. $90/year??? Give me a break. The ONLY reason WEGC isn't shuttered right now is because the previous board and president had the foresight to fully and properly fund our club to protect us from environmental extremists and claims that we were encroaching on USFS land.

Hopefully those two guys are exposed for the people that they really are and will get voted out at the next election.

I really enjoy shooting the back bays at WEGC. Man, I hope those two guys don't screw it up for the rest of us!
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Old 01-15-2014, 1:41 PM
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$240 divided by 12 months is only $20 per month. That isn't bad for what a member gets. Even a first year member would do OK at $40 per month with their initiation. The norco range charges $30 to shoot for a minimum of two hours and it doesn't match all the benefits of of West End.

I can understand people being mad if the rates went up when they were advertised to not go up, but lower prices are not always better either.

I do hope the rest of the board and members have power to control any crazy ideas that may be pushed through by these guys.

I wonder how they got so many votes. Was it the lower rates that were promised, the restrictions for competitions (which makes me feel thrown under the bus), or did they just have a good sales pitch? I wonder if the voters thought about all the possibilities of where the new President and Treasurer, who are 180 to the current ones, would take us. Unfortunately I joined a month too late to vote in this election.
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Old 01-15-2014, 2:16 PM
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membership@wegc.org

Let them know you need to update the information on file.

president@wegc.org

Voice your opinion and bombard him with emails about how you disagree with his decisions. Make him accountable and answer fully, don't settle for copy/paste responses.
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  #11  
Old 01-15-2014, 3:53 PM
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I do hope the rest of the board and members have power to control any crazy ideas that may be pushed through by these guys.
Yes, in fact every campaign promise made by these guys CAN NOT be achieved without a majority of the board agreeing. Just lie all of Obama's promises require congress to agree as well. They are similar charlatan's in my opinion.

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I wonder how they got so many votes. Was it the lower rates that were promised, the restrictions for competitions (which makes me feel thrown under the bus), or did they just have a good sales pitch?
Their sales pitch was not unlike the Obama sales pitch...they appealed to people by promising less taxes (dues) and more services (weekend bay access for plinkers) while ignoring the facts of not being able to deliver either. In fact Lipson admitted in the meeting he had no financial analysis whatsoever to justify his $90 dues proposal! Lipson has been to ONE board meeting in three years and has NO IDEA what the clubs long term capital projects and commitments are nor any of the environmental or legal issues facing it.

Asi have posted elsewhere... Lipson likes the idea of being president but is whoefully incapable and unprepared to do the job.

Last edited by Ronin2; 01-15-2014 at 4:09 PM..
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Old 01-15-2014, 4:31 PM
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They got more votes because the vast majority of members are plinkers. The guys that are crying now don't like it because Lipson is going to try to make the range a better place to shoot for the 1500 members and not just the 130 members that take up 90% of the time on a weekend in any given month. So stop with all of the Obama comparisons. The board has had it's way far to long for its little clique of shooters who think they own the place.

Last edited by JMB Fan; 01-15-2014 at 4:33 PM.. Reason: .
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Old 01-15-2014, 5:18 PM
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They got more votes because the vast majority of members are plinkers. The guys that are crying now don't like it because Lipson is going to try to make the range a better place to shoot for the 1500 members and not just the 130 members that take up 90% of the time on a weekend in any given month. So stop with all of the Obama comparisons. The board has had it's way far to long for its little clique of shooters who think they own the place.
I bet you believed obamacare was going to lower the cost of insurance also.
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Old 01-15-2014, 5:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JMB Fan View Post
They got more votes because the vast majority of members are plinkers. The guys that are crying now don't like it because Lipson is going to try to make the range a better place to shoot for the 1500 members and not just the 130 members that take up 90% of the time on a weekend in any given month. So stop with all of the Obama comparisons. The board has had it's way far to long for its little clique of shooters who think they own the place.
Lipson is a looney tune. he has NO IDEA what he is doing, cant run a meeting, has no idea what is going on with the club and never bothered to get educated on the organization prior to his election. He attended one board meeting in the last four years. None of what he promised can be done without a majority of voted on the board... he knew that and lied anyway to get elected. His election was directly related to his campaign platform of $90 dues...nothing more.


IN truth he is a charlatan....; "In usage, a subtle difference is drawn between the charlatan and other kinds of confidence people. The charlatan is usually a salesperson. He does not try to create a personal relationship with his marks, or set up an elaborate hoax using roleplaying. Rather, the person called a charlatan is being accused of resorting to quackery, pseudoscience, or some knowingly employed bogus means of impressing people in order to swindle his victims by selling them worthless nostrums and similar goods or services that will not deliver on the promises made for them. The word calls forth the image of an old-time medicine show operator, who has long since left town by the time the people who bought his "snake oil" or similarly named tonic realize that it does not perform as advertised."

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Old 01-15-2014, 5:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JMB Fan View Post
They got more votes because the vast majority of members are plinkers. The guys that are crying now don't like it because Lipson is going to try to make the range a better place to shoot for the 1500 members and not just the 130 members that take up 90% of the time on a weekend in any given month. So stop with all of the Obama comparisons. The board has had it's way far to long for its little clique of shooters who think they own the place.
Larry received 234 votes from a 1600 member club, certainly not a vast majority.
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Old 01-15-2014, 5:45 PM
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Larry received 234 votes from a 1600 member club, certainly not a vast majority.
My quick overview/analysis of the voting shows that Lipson/Dexter had 140 hard core supporters of the 243 votes that he got... meaning 94 votes were most likely due to the reduced dues campaign platform. How can I draw that conclusion? If you look at the tally for the two Lipson/Dexter write in candidates... Jack Costello for Range Officer - 140 votes and Steve McCloskey for Vice President- 138 votes... one can see how many voters were really onboard and voted the full Lipson/Dexter ticket.. 8.7% of the membership eligible to vote and 34% of the 411 votes cast for the office or club President.

Last edited by Ronin2; 01-15-2014 at 5:48 PM..
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Old 01-15-2014, 5:57 PM
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Larry received 234 votes from a 1600 member club, certainly not a vast majority.
It was vast enough to get elected. Less then 415 members even cast a ballot.
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Old 01-15-2014, 6:42 PM
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I'm not a member of WEGC and have only the barest idea of the issues involved that I read here on Calguns, but:

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.......................... That is why Lipson/Dexter sued the club...saying that "CA Corporate Codes require that every member has a right to have a copy of the member ship list".

................ He then said he would send everyone who wanted an e mail copy of the relevant Corporate Codes section. This is the guy who sued the club to get the list and the old president/board fought tooth and nail to prevent that from happening. IN fact the court accepted the clubs solution, also acceptable under the same corporations code section, and Lipson/Dexter rejected the solution the club offered and the judge agreed to.

doesn't this say that he was right? The previous leadership was not operating in accordance with the applicable code?
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Old 01-15-2014, 8:49 PM
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I'm not a member of WEGC and have only the barest idea of the issues involved that I read here on Calguns, but:
doesn't this say that he was right? The previous leadership was not operating in accordance with the applicable code?

The previous leadership was operating within the code, per the superior court finding and the plaintiffs settlement agreement. Here is the section of the CA corporate code. Please note the last section highlighted in bold. There are reasonable alternatives to releasing the membership list. Lipson wanted to do a campaign mailer to the membership when running back in 2010 for office and demanded the list. The club responded that as long as there were no slanderous or unsubstantiated allegations against other WEGC members in good standing in the mailer, Lipson could provide the mailer to the company that mails out the club newsletter and the Lipson mailer would be mailed out by them and Lipson billed for postage.

The Superior Court judge accepted this as a "reasonable alternative" under section 2(c) below. Lipson did not avail himself of that .... Choosing to continue to litigate with the club, running up club legal bills, to get the actual membership list. He never got it and the lawsuit was settled as such.



6330. (a) Subject to Sections 6331 and 6332, and unless the
corporation provides a reasonable alternative pursuant to subdivision
(c), a member may do either or both of the following as permitted by
subdivision (b):
(1) Inspect and copy the record of all the members' names,
addresses and voting rights, at reasonable times, upon five business
days' prior written demand upon the corporation which demand shall
state the purpose for which the inspection rights are requested; or
(2) Obtain from the secretary of the corporation, upon written
demand and tender of a reasonable charge, an alphabetized list of the
names, addresses, and voting rights of those members entitled to
vote for the election of directors, as of the most recent record date
for which it has been compiled or as of a date specified by the
member subsequent to the date of demand. The demand shall state the
purpose for which the list is requested. The membership list shall be
made available on or before the later of 10 business days after the
demand is received or after the date specified therein as the date as
of which the list is to be compiled.
(b) The rights set forth in subdivision (a) may be exercised by:
(1) Any member, for a purpose reasonably related to the person's
interest as a member. Where the corporation reasonably believes that
the information will be used for another purpose, or where it
provides a reasonable alternative pursuant to subdivision (c), it may
deny the member access to the list. In any subsequent action brought
by the member under Section 6336, the court shall enforce the rights
set forth in subdivision (a) unless the corporation proves that the
member will allow use of the information for purposes unrelated to
the person's interest as a member or that the alternative method
offered reasonably achieves the proper purpose set forth in the
demand.
(2) The authorized number of members for a purpose reasonably
related to the members' interest as members.
(c) The corporation may, within 10 business days after receiving a
demand under subdivision (a), deliver to the person or persons
making the demand a written offer of an alternative method of
achieving the purpose identified in the demand without providing
access to or a copy of the membership list. An alternative method
which reasonably and in a timely manner accomplishes the proper
purpose set forth in a demand made under subdivision (a) shall be
deemed a reasonable alternative, unless within a reasonable time
after acceptance of the offer the corporation fails to do those
things which it offered to do. Any rejection of the offer shall be in
writing and shall indicate the reasons the alternative proposed by
the corporation does not meet the proper purpose of the demand made
pursuant to subdivision (a).

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Old 01-16-2014, 9:13 AM
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Am I wrong in thinking that the original purpose of WEGC was to promote competitive shooting of all kinds? Is it not written into it's constitution? I am not a member, but I do shoot 3gun there. There have been plenty of times I have been there and seen unused bays.
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Old 01-16-2014, 9:57 AM
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Am I wrong in thinking that the original purpose of WEGC was to promote competitive shooting of all kinds? Is it not written into it's constitution? I am not a member, but I do shoot 3gun there. There have been plenty of times I have been there and seen unused bays.
I would have to agree that organized shooting sports is very important to the club. You are right about there being room for plinkers as well. There can be improvements made to allow even more plinking bays while the competitions are going on, and I am all for that. I am open to some scheduling changes as well, as long as both sides get their use of the range.

I don't have anything personal against JMB Fan, but he sure does sound like an obama supporter........well at least a lipson/dexter supporter. JMB sounds like a stereotypical gun hater. They don't care about realistically fixing the problem that is stated, they just want to take extreme approaches that just cater to themselves.

The club is open 27/7 to members. The plinkers do have Monday through Friday to utilize the club as well. I try to go during the week, when possible. I also watch the calendar to see what competitions will be using which bays. It isn't uncommon for a match to get cancelled and leave the range open. The front range is free for a member to use at any time. I prefer the back ranges, but the front was very enjoyable to use when I did a C&R shoot.

There have been many times that I have been one of the last people out of the range on the weekend. It isn't uncommon for me to need a flashlight to let myself out of the gate. Some people stayed after dark as well. Unfortunately, many people want to use the range on Saturday and Sunday. I haven't seen a lot of people that were unable to find a bay to shoot on. I have doubled up with others in the past and I have used the rifle range when the small bays are in use. It can get busy, but the competitions that I shoot are probably using 40-70 percent of the bays for 50-60 percent of the daylight hours. Action pistol uses short bays so it leaves bays 7-11 open for rifle use or individual use. I don't recall whether rifle or individuals have first dibs on the back 200. The LESA and 3 gun matches don't close the 200 yard area every time. IDPA uses short bays in the front.

Isn't it funny how us fellow gun owners always get pitted against each other? Hunters hate AR-15 guys, target shooters don't care about non lead ammo rules, plinkers don't care about the sports, competitions shooters hate the plinkers and don't want them to get any range time.........oh wait...........the last part isn't true. The competition shooters have to plink to practice and test loads. They also have families that like to shoot without doing a competition. We all like our guns and like to use them, we need to work as a group. We have the same goal.........that is to shoot our guns. We don't need the type of so called compromise that the anti gun people always push where one side gives up a lot and the other gives up nothing.
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Old 01-16-2014, 11:38 AM
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You don't have a clue to what's going at WEGC. The current board members rigged the last election. They forced out the previous members and took over. So now they have complete control over the scheduled and it is completely in favor of the discipline shooters. So now they are all crying because the new president is going to take their ball away from them and try to make the club fair to all shooters. They don't want anyone to look at the books why is that? These guys took paid NRA vacations on our dime and I'd like to know if they ever paid the club back. I don't know Larry Lipson and have never meet him. The club needs both plinkers and discipline shooters and to say that current board members were looking out for what was in the best interest of WEGC is a joke.
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Old 01-16-2014, 11:47 AM
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Being the simple thinking man that I am.
I'd say the club has been overtaken by an anti-2A Socialist Regime.
Kind of a Microcosim of what we have running this country.

I'm really sorry to hear this.
We need to cut the head of the snake off.
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Old 01-16-2014, 12:50 PM
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You don't have a clue to what's going at WEGC. The current board members rigged the last election. They forced out the previous members and took over. So now they have complete control over the scheduled and it is completely in favor of the discipline shooters. So now they are all crying because the new president is going to take their ball away from them and try to make the club fair to all shooters. They don't want anyone to look at the books why is that? These guys took paid NRA vacations on our dime and I'd like to know if they ever paid the club back. I don't know Larry Lipson and have never meet him. The club needs both plinkers and discipline shooters and to say that current board members were looking out for what was in the best interest of WEGC is a joke.
You sound like some pissed off fudd. What was the club set up for to begin with, and what does the constitution say.
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Old 01-16-2014, 2:12 PM
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I've been a full member for a couple of years. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of the politics of the club, but, you can be sure I will start paying closer attention. Am I missing some thing. I mean, if a majority of the club does or does not want the matches, can't this be put to a vote?
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Old 01-16-2014, 3:02 PM
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I've been a full member for a couple of years. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of the politics of the club, but, you can be sure I will start paying closer attention. Am I missing some thing. I mean, if a majority of the club does or does not want the matches, can't this be put to a vote?
Basically that's what just happend. The discipline shooters are all on the board and they don't want things to change. They run the club like they own it. The new president wants to open up more time on the weekends for plinkers and family's with kids who want to shoot in the back bays. That's why they are so pissed off. Because they will lose some range time. If you look at the scheduled from any given month the weekend range time is tied up 90% of the time with the discipline matches. How is it fair when less then 150 discipline shooters have control of a club that has 1600 members.
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Old 01-16-2014, 3:14 PM
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The club is open 27/7 to members.
That's a neat trick!

Seriously though, isn't it the case that only full members have access to the club 24/7, and that the Associate members only have access on weekends?

I don't know what proportion of the total membership are full members vs. associates, but I do know that the club is not accepting full members at this point, so I don't think any new members don't have the weekday option.


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The plinkers do have Monday through Friday to utilize the club as well. I try to go during the week, when possible.
That's great if you can swing it, but the reality for most folks is that weekdays are taken up with work, and weekends are the only time available to shoot.
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Old 01-16-2014, 3:21 PM
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Basically that's what just happend. The discipline shooters are all on the board and they don't want things to change. They run the club like they own it. The new president wants to open up more time on the weekends for plinkers and family's with kids who want to shoot in the back bays. That's why they are so pissed off. Because they will lose some range time. If you look at the scheduled from any given month the weekend range time is tied up 90% of the time with the discipline matches. How is it fair when less then 150 discipline shooters have control of a club that has 1600 members.
Out of curiosity, how many shooters with families will use each bay in a day?

A match with 50 competitors using five bays equals 10 persons / bay for the day. If you can squeeze less than 10 plinkers / day into each bay, you're actually reducing member access to the bays by shutting down matches.
If that's the case, is that any more fair?
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Old 01-16-2014, 4:24 PM
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Out of curiosity, how many shooters with families will use each bay in a day?

A match with 50 competitors using five bays equals 10 persons / bay for the day. If you can squeeze less than 10 plinkers / day into each bay, you're actually reducing member access to the bays by shutting down matches.
If that's the case, is that any more fair?
They don't come close to 50 competitors at any match. On average only 10 to 25 match shooters show up for any of the disciplines. And the way our range is setup they take up the bulk of the back bays from 8:00 am until 2:00 pm just about every Saturday and Sunday of the month. The only time plinkers have a free weekend are months that have a 5th Sat or a 5th Sun are back bays open to all members.
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Old 01-16-2014, 4:55 PM
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They don't come close to 50 competitors at any match. On average only 10 to 25 match shooters show up for any of the disciplines. And the way our range is setup they take up the bulk of the back bays from 8:00 am until 2:00 pm just about every Saturday and Sunday of the month. The only time plinkers have a free weekend are months that have a 5th Sat or a 5th Sun are back bays open to all members.
Not a member but sometimes shoot the 3-gun matches there (LESA and WEGC). What you mentioned is true in that anytime someone shoots from the long range 'pad', the back ranges are closed since the bullets would be flying over those folks' heads. If the match shooters weren't there, then the plinkers would be there on the same pad. And doesn't that close the back bays as well?
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Old 01-16-2014, 5:14 PM
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That's a neat trick!

Seriously though, isn't it the case that only full members have access to the club 24/7, and that the Associate members only have access on weekends?

I don't know what proportion of the total membership are full members vs. associates, but I do know that the club is not accepting full members at this point, so I don't think any new members don't have the weekday option.




That's great if you can swing it, but the reality for most folks is that weekdays are taken up with work, and weekends are the only time available to shoot.
Full membership gives 24/7 access to the entire range and it is capped at 1600 people. The limited members only have access to the front firing line where the RO shack is, and only on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. The calendar says the fees are now $65 per year. It doesn't say that they have stopped taking limited members. They are not part of the 1600 full members.

If a member paid for the full deal, then they get the whole range 24/7. The limited members are not allowed to use the back ranges on their own, ever. They can be a guest of a full member, or they can shoot the competitions which are open to the public. I got a feel for the range by doing a couple competitions and then being a guest once or twice after the competition so I could plink.

The front range is not public either, but I think the limited members can bring guests to that part of the range.

The range is two separate parts, basically. Full members can use the limited members range on the weekend (for free), as they paid for the whole package, but I think I recall reading that it is only if it is not full from the limited members.

The competitions don't utilize any of the limited member firing line.

A person joining right now would only be able to get limited membership for Fri, Sat, and Sun on the fist range. The club could choose to open the limited members range on other days as well but it might have an impact on how much space there is for the full members, during the week. I have seen as many as 10-15 people on the limited range during the week. Other times it is empty.

I think the other type of member is a conditional member. That is just a full member that is in their first year of membership. They can not vote in the first year, but they still get full range access.
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Old 01-16-2014, 5:39 PM
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Not a member but sometimes shoot the 3-gun matches there (LESA and WEGC). What you mentioned is true in that anytime someone shoots from the long range 'pad', the back ranges are closed since the bullets would be flying over those folks' heads. If the match shooters weren't there, then the plinkers would be there on the same pad. And doesn't that close the back bays as well?
IDPA only uses bays 1,2,3 and 6. That is the 4th Sunday. The rest of the range is open to plinkers. Plinkers can either use bays 7-11 for short range or use the 200 yard pad. It leaves 5 and 6 open as well. When they finish, then it all opens up.

Action pistol is the 2nd Sat. It is listed in bays 1-6, so it leaves the back 200 yard pad or bays 7-11 open.

Cowboys use bay 1 and 2 on the 3rd Saturday and LESA is supposed to use 3,5,6,10,and 11. That leaves 4,7,8,and 9 open. Yes, LESA will sometimes use the back 200 for long range rifle.

3 gun is listed for bays 1,2,3,5,6 and the back 200, but we only have 5 stages and skip the 200 yard pad often times. It is the 4th Saturday.

The fact that the 200 yard pad is over the top of bays 7-11 is a problem. Plinkers may limit other plinkers by using it for rifles instead of individual bays. Throw competitions in there, and it just makes it worse. If we had more private bays across from the rimfire range, it would help everybody.

I think you have a great point, SuperSet. All of the blame seems to be put on the competitions, rather than really looking at how the range functions and how we are limited by bays that can not be used when the 200 yard pad is in use.
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Old 01-16-2014, 5:40 PM
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Full membership gives 24/7 access to the entire range and it is capped at 1600 people. The limited members only have access to the front firing line where the RO shack is, and only on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. The calendar says the fees are now $65 per year. It doesn't say that they have stopped taking limited members. They are not part of the 1600 full members.

If a member paid for the full deal, then they get the whole range 24/7. The limited members are not allowed to use the back ranges on their own, ever. They can be a guest of a full member, or they can shoot the competitions which are open to the public. I got a feel for the range by doing a couple competitions and then being a guest once or twice after the competition so I could plink.

The front range is not public either, but I think the limited members can bring guests to that part of the range.

The range is two separate parts, basically. Full members can use the limited members range on the weekend (for free), as they paid for the whole package, but I think I recall reading that it is only if it is not full from the limited members.

The competitions don't utilize any of the limited member firing line.

A person joining right now would only be able to get limited membership for Fri, Sat, and Sun on the fist range. The club could choose to open the limited members range on other days as well but it might have an impact on how much space there is for the full members, during the week. I have seen as many as 10-15 people on the limited range during the week. Other times it is empty.

I think the other type of member is a conditional member. That is just a full member that is in their first year of membership. They can not vote in the first year, but they still get full range access.
Thanks for all the detailed info. I was thinking about joining a while back. Then there were some reports of dissension, lawsuits, etc., and I decided to hold off until that blew over. A bit of procrastination on my part and the next thing I knew the membership was full. I probably should just join as a limited member, especially since we're only going to be in the area for a few more years.

What are the crowds like at the main range on weekends?
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Old 01-16-2014, 6:27 PM
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Thanks for all the detailed info. I was thinking about joining a while back. Then there were some reports of dissension, lawsuits, etc., and I decided to hold off until that blew over. A bit of procrastination on my part and the next thing I knew the membership was full. I probably should just join as a limited member, especially since we're only going to be in the area for a few more years.

What are the crowds like at the main range on weekends?
It gets plenty of use, but doesn't seem too bad. It is more busy during the mornings and then it thins out later in the day. I arrive for the competitions between 8 and 8:30am. The limited range opens at 8am, IIRC. It closes at 4:30 or 5 pm. I leave the range at random times and don't see it while I am out back, so I don't have a great feel for how busy it really is. The entire property seems to vary with usage.

I can say that I would much rather use the limited membership (if I had one) than go to Lytle creek firing line, up the road. The RO's are good at West End and you can use steel at various distances. The only bad thing was that it was split with one side of the RO shack for pistols (room for 15+ people) and the other side is for rifles (25-30 benches roughly). I don't know if they ever let you run pistols on the rifle side. The pistol side has steel bars that you can hang steel plates from. It appears that the range provides steel plates, or at least used to.

I haven't seen any shooters on the limited range that seem questionable. They have to commit $65 bucks or be a guest vs. up the road where anyone gets in for $15 bucks. Plus it is more out of the way and not advertised as a public range. Standard cap mags don't seem to be any issue at West End either. They are a problem at Lytle Creek.

You can get private bays at Raahauges for $30 bucks per person for a minimum of two hours (you can stay longer if they aren't busy), but that adds up quick when you have a few people.
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Old 01-17-2014, 11:14 AM
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You don't have a clue to what's going at WEGC. The current board members rigged the last election. They forced out the previous members and took over.
That is one hell of an accusation. So you claim that current board members (Lipson/Dexter excluded) committed corporate elections fraud in violation of the CA Corporations Code? What evidence do you have to that effect? Why was it not brought out by Lipson/Dexter in their lawsuit with the club over among other things, its elections practices?????? It was never proven to a Superior Court judge presiding over a civil case dealing with just that issue brought by Lipson and Dexter... yet you make it again here????

I suggest you PROVE your allegation about those board members who are not only well respected members of the shooting community but also CalGuns.net members as well OR withdraw your unsubstantiated claim and APOLOGIZE. People are still innocent until proven guilty in this country.

Failure to offer proof of your allegations made against those identifiable men in a public forum such as this is proof that you are doing nothing but spreading FUD to someone else's benefit( I wonder who...lol)..a truly pathetic and despicable act that I WILL ACCUSE YOU OF HERE AND NOW in front of all the CalGuns.net membership and its management.

PS: I have also reported your posting of unsubstantiated criminal allegations made against other CalGuns.net members to the mods.

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Old 01-17-2014, 12:26 PM
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He is as entitled to his opinion as you are.
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Old 01-17-2014, 12:55 PM
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He is as entitled to his opinion as you are.
Lipson and Dexter could not prove that opinion to be fact in court. And until he has some facts to back it up... It's all Repeating the lie over and over won't make fact but again, the Lipson/ Dextet camp continue to follow the Democrat/Obama play book like liars they are.

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Old 01-17-2014, 1:38 PM
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As a full member, competitive shooter, and plinker shooter, I would say that the vote that swung Lipson and Dexter into power shows that a bare majority want lower dues and more access.

Whether that is achievable or not is a different question.

I suspect lower dues is more important to a lot of people than access, but that is just my feeling. In general, the plinker mentality to me seems to be cheap cheap cheap.

I'm all for lower dues and as much access for everyone as can be had. I also like competing, and competitions take time to set up, and a lot of space.

The range is in a canyon, and the long distances are aligned along the length of the canyon. The pistol/plinking bays that the full members have the right to access when there is not a competition going on are also along the same length of canyon, they use the same space. Unfortunately, this means that bays get swept and therefore are unusable due to normal range safety rules whenever there is a long range event.

There is no way for both groups to have it all.

The bolt rifle competition takes the most space, starting from the 500m pad. Typically, we move up to the 200m pad around 11:00am which frees up several bays. Some days people are waiting for those spots, other days there is nobody there.
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Old 01-17-2014, 1:47 PM
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Having spent a lot of time there, the place is nearly empty every afternoon.

$90 dues will never happen, the money taken in wouldn't add up to the expenses. They need to pay the rangemasters and workers comp.
Equipment and maintenance (dozers and so on).
Insurance
Lawyers
utilities
office supplies and mailing expenses
website expenses
trash
porta potties
repairs (remember when the range was shut down for a couple months because the road washed out) More that $100 grand to fix.
and so on.
$90 dues won't be enough to pay the rangemasters. No rangemasters would mean the place has unlimited acces because no one around to enforce any rules, and WEGC would become a ****hole in short order like any popular BLM spot.
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Old 01-17-2014, 3:19 PM
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That is one hell of an accusation. So you claim that current board members (Lipson/Dexter excluded) committed corporate elections fraud in violation of the CA Corporations Code? What evidence do you have to that effect? Why was it not brought out by Lipson/Dexter in their lawsuit with the club over among other things, its elections practices?????? It was never proven to a Superior Court judge presiding over a civil case dealing with just that issue brought by Lipson and Dexter... yet you make it again here????

I suggest you PROVE your allegation about those board members who are not only well respected members of the shooting community but also CalGuns.net members as well OR withdraw your unsubstantiated claim and APOLOGIZE. People are still innocent until proven guilty in this country.

Failure to offer proof of your allegations made against those identifiable men in a public forum such as this is proof that you are doing nothing but spreading FUD to someone else's benefit( I wonder who...lol)..a truly pathetic and despicable act that I WILL ACCUSE YOU OF HERE AND NOW in front of all the CalGuns.net membership and its management.

PS: I have also reported your posting of unsubstantiated criminal allegations made against other CalGuns.net members to the mods.
If anyone is spreading FUD its you. You and your little clique of board members and discipline shooters are the ones screaming and crying how the sky is falling and how this new president is just like Obama and is going to ruin WEGC. The problem we have at WEGC is guys like you who try to bully and threaten people and have gotten away with it for the last 4 years. Now that we have a new president who is going to break up your little private range that the rest of us pay for and open it up to more shooters and family's you can't handle it. I'm not going to apologize to you or anyone else. You are nothing more than a carnival barker.

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