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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 01-04-2014, 9:23 PM
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Default Chabot Gun Club Threatened with Closure

It's an early issue at this point, but I view this as a 2A issue in that there is a small ground swell in an Oakland neighborhood in an effort to close the Chabot Gun Club. A petition has been started on the basis that the range noise is a nuisance to a close neighborhood and as such they would like it closed. The petition offers the usual unintelligent reasons.

This issue was brought up in the local calguns forum a few days ago but I thought posting here would give this issue more viability.

This is a 2A issue to me in that if we're not careful we will have no place to exercise our 2A rights. I have included a link to the petition, but would ask you not sign it in order to say something snarkey. I'm hopeful that another member here has some insight and might be able to share information on if the range is aware of this petition and if anything has been done to address it.

The climate in Oakland is one in which I could see this issue being picked up and run with. It would be very disappointing to lose this treasure.

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/clo...p&r_by=9741318

-Cee
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  #2  
Old 01-04-2014, 9:52 PM
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Maybe start a counter-petition to legalize suppressors. Most of the complaints are about the noise. ;-)
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:46 PM
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chabot gun club is way far off in the mountains., with lots of valleys and hills surrounding it. I think this is an attempt by Anti's to make something out of nothing.


If they have nothing to do, they should go out and help police capture criminals.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:55 PM
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Perhaps it should be pointed out that range gunfire doesn't seem to bother the deer and turkeys, who routinely walk downrange while the line is hot.



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Old 01-04-2014, 10:59 PM
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There's more info on this in the Bay Area Chapter Forum
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=873967
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:50 PM
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I understand this was instigated by hikers. Complaints coming from anyone not a local resident effected at their home should really be a non issue.
Then again, its Oakland.
Someone needs to see if those hikers would like to learn to shoot.
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Old 01-05-2014, 12:17 AM
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What is wrong with these people just want to slap the stupid out of them....
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Old 01-05-2014, 5:28 AM
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Read some of the comments the petition-signers have left. Everything from "stop the violence" to "the poison lead may find its way into my pet's organs in that environment."

110 people have scrawled their names to that atrocity so far. There is no allowance for dissent on the petition comments, either. In the end, 200 screaming, crying, belly-aching. lying, insufferable and intolerant gun prohibitionists will decide the fate of half a million people.
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Old 01-05-2014, 7:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highender View Post
chabot gun club is way far off in the mountains., with lots of valleys and hills surrounding it. I think this is an attempt by Anti's to make something out of nothing.


If they have nothing to do, they should go out and help police capture criminals.


LOL. Most of the signers are probably the criminals that the police are looking for
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Old 01-05-2014, 8:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highender View Post
chabot gun club is way far off in the mountains., with lots of valleys and hills surrounding it. I think this is an attempt by Anti's to make something out of nothing.

If they have nothing to do, they should go out and help police capture criminals.
The range sits in the East Bay hills (pushed up over millions of years of seismic and tectonic activity), surrounded by Eucs, yes, but also in a small valley that empties out to Lake Chabot. I can imagine the sound of my firing might carry down that valley out across the lake and toward the homes that one can see along the far ridge, beyond the lake.

But like the fools who moved to the John Muir Apartments across from the Lake Merced range in San Francisco, the majority of homeowners on the west side of Lake Chabot no doubt moved there well after establishment of the Chabot range. The recreational activity and its noise was there before they were...

I'll write a letter to EBRPD expressing my support for the range.
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Old 01-05-2014, 1:21 PM
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For many years in Southern California, the San Gabriel Valley Gun Club was in an area called Fish Canyon. I am not sure how many years back the club went, I know it had been there for many years in the 1960's. In the early 1990's houses were built about a mile and half northeast of the club. I am told that the original purchasers of those homes had to sign a document acknowledging the existence of the gun club a short distance away. Well, the new residents organized, lawyered up and got a judge to shut the club down as a nuisance and danger.

Since I was not actively involved with shooting at the time I do not know if the above is 100% accurate. I had my rifle and my son learned to shoot there. If you really know just what happened at SGVGB, please correct any errors I made.
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Old 01-05-2014, 2:02 PM
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This is like people who move next door to an airport and then complain about the sounds of jetliners that fly overhead.
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Old 01-05-2014, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Socalman View Post
Since I was not actively involved with shooting at the time I do not know if the above is 100% accurate. I had my rifle and my son learned to shoot there. If you really know just what happened at SGVGB, please correct any errors I made.
Most of the range was on Vulcan Mine Company property which the club leased. Some of the land was leased from the Army Corp. of Engineers. The city of Duarte put pressure on Vulcan not to renew the lease and SGVGC had to close.
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Old 01-05-2014, 3:09 PM
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If CA really cared about the whiny busy bodies it'd let us all have suppressors...for the children.
But seriously, this is the nicest range in the East Bay and I don't want to lose it! If this bs gets past the online petition phase I'm ready to fight it.
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Old 01-05-2014, 3:14 PM
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Looks like I need to make some more trips down to Chabot for some range time. Money talks.
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Old 01-05-2014, 3:40 PM
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That's great, It would close down right when I become a member.

This is F'n BS No one lives close enough to hear the shots from the range.
I bet you it's those damn bicyclist tired of the traffic on that road from the range.
Because if that range is gone that road will be pretty much all theirs. I hate them so much!
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Old 01-05-2014, 3:58 PM
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reminds me of people who purchase their homes near an airport, or, other loud facility, then, decide to complain about the noise coming from it...


talk about lack of foresight
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Old 01-05-2014, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by PaintItBlack View Post
That's great, It would close down right when I become a member.

This is F'n BS No one lives close enough to hear the shots from the range. I bet you it's those damn bicyclist tired of the traffic on that road from the range. Because if that range is gone that road will be pretty much all theirs. I hate them so much!
Dude... calm down. I've ridden my bicycle to the range (to shoot), so have others. As for the mix of bikes, motos and cages on Redwood, it seems the latter two are usually the ones annoyed at the former.
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Old 01-05-2014, 4:57 PM
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Dude... calm down. I've ridden my bicycle to the range (to shoot), so have others. As for the mix of bikes, motos and cages on Redwood, it seems the latter two are usually the ones annoyed at the former.
I have yet to see a bicyclist with a rifle case/bag or even a place to put a handgun going up there. The ones I run into are the ones in groups taking up the whole lane and not moving. 1 or 2 bicyclist on the side is not a problem, I just have the luck to get the ones who don't give a damn whose behind them.
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Old 01-05-2014, 5:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
If CA really cared about the whiny busy bodies it'd let us all have suppressors...for the children.
But seriously, this is the nicest range in the East Bay and I don't want to lose it! If this bs gets past the online petition phase I'm ready to fight it.
Funny, looks like whoever wrote the petition spicificly says supressors should be required, I agree, everybody on either side of this should be rallying for legalization and no tax stamp for suppressors then everybody can be happy.
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Old 01-05-2014, 8:34 PM
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On a side note does anybody think these petitions are disgusting. You have the option to sign the petition but absolutely no option to disagree with the petition (without signing it to leave a comment). I mean how one sided can you get. If you allow people a voice to comment on an issue you should in turn at least allow both sides of the argument to get involved. I know you can create your own petition but its just not the same.
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Old 01-05-2014, 8:39 PM
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Originally Posted by coma13 View Post
Looks like I need to make some more trips down to Chabot for some range time. Money talks.
This.
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Old 01-05-2014, 8:44 PM
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This is an interesting coincidence - finding this thread on CG.

I was hiking in the hilly area south of Concord/Martinez in mid-December, and heard popping noises off in the distance. It sounded like gunfire but I couldn't figure out where it was coming from.

Tonight I looked on the map on Chabot's website, and realized that the Chabot club is right about where it should be, given the direction of origin and noise level of the sounds I was hearing. I had no idea that the East Bay even had outdoor gun ranges, but it makes sense, being that there are so many of these little canyons where it'd be safe to shoot, just outside of the cities.

It's frustrating to read about someone trying to shut down the gun club because of the racket. (Who wants to bet that the complainers are people who have lived in the area LESS time than Chabot has been open?)

I don't live anywhere nearby, but I do frequently shoot at a range near Sacramento...and development seems to be encroaching on it from all directions. There's undeveloped land all around it, any of which could be sold to developers at any time, who will proceed to put in a subdivision. The residents, in turn, will almost certainly start whining about the racket and/or claim there's a potential safety issue of stray rounds landing in their back yards. So I will be watching this closely - if Chabot is shut down, my local outdoor range might be next.

It's the same reason I lobbied against all the attempts to stop gun shows at the Cow Palace - because if they pass, then Cal Expo will be next. Etc.

Last edited by Cylarz; 01-05-2014 at 8:49 PM..
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Old 01-05-2014, 8:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohum63 View Post
Funny, looks like whoever wrote the petition spicificly says supressors should be required, I agree, everybody on either side of this should be rallying for legalization and no tax stamp for suppressors then everybody can be happy.
Actually that looks like an older one:

http://www.change.org/petitions/oakl...-on-guns-fired

The author of that petition takes the position shooters ought to be equipped with silencers. Do we really need to quote comedian Ron White on this one?

The more current one is found under a "MoveOn.org" site. I think this is a great opportunity for our more liberal members to help out and demonstrate, as we are oft reminded, that "liberals own guns too"?

The author of the petition can be contacted via the site, there's no requirement to vote - just click on his name.
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Old 01-05-2014, 9:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Cylarz View Post

It's frustrating to read about someone trying to shut down the gun club because of the racket. (Who wants to bet that the complainers are people who have lived in the area LESS time than Chabot has been open?)
Reading some of the responses it's clear that even without noise some people don't want the gun range to exist at all.

I have some experience dealing with similar situations. My concern is that restrictions will be incrementally put in place until over the long term public use of the range drops to a point sufficiently low that no real opposition to closure can be marshalled. Restrictions on days or time of use, number of shooters present or lanes available, perhaps even on calibers used, would have the effect over time of making the range less popular and eventually - well there will be no one left to object to closing it entirely.

I hope all are aware there's no satisfying these folks. They'll whittle away a bit at a time and ask for more. There will be the temptation to give in on some "reasonable" measures however I hope whomever our "powers that be" will oppose this from the start.
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Old 01-05-2014, 9:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GOEX FFF View Post
This is like people who move next door to an airport and then complain about the sounds of jetliners that fly overhead.
One of my favorites is people who buy homes right on the golf course and then get angry if a ball hits their home or if someone is looking for a ball near their yard...
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Old 01-05-2014, 9:10 PM
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One of my favorites is people who buy homes right on the golf course and then get angry if a ball hits their home or if someone is looking for a ball near their yard...
In the end, these types of people truly believe their lives are more important than everyone else's lives. Chabot has been around for decades. Most of want it closed aren't even from the area...

"It's for the children.... well for the hikers!!!"
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Old 01-05-2014, 9:17 PM
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In the end, these types of people truly believe their lives are more important than everyone else's lives. Chabot has been around for decades. Most of want it closed aren't even from the area...

"It's for the children.... well for the hikers!!!"
One of the petition signers wrote -

"The noise from the range travels far, and disturbs both the human and animal users of the hills."

I was previously and blissfully unaware of Dr. Doolittle as a resident of the involved area ....
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Old 01-05-2014, 9:32 PM
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I especially like this one...

"Why on earth does a park have a gun range to begin with? Aren't we trying to get rid of guns? Good heavens! I don't live near the park, but the idea of having to live in the sound range of gunshots is nightmare enough for people in other neighborhoods of Oakland. What a crazy idea to allow it in a park!"

So because people in Oakland are killing each other with illegally bought firearms and have no respect of life. Chabot should be closed and that will, somehow, make the killing streets of Oakland a better place...

Comments like that just shows how idiotically selfish people can get... because they walk to have some mediating sessions with nature no one else can enjoy their hobbies. Especially since Chabot have been there for decades... it is just NOW they feel that it should be closed because of the noise?
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Old 01-05-2014, 9:40 PM
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Whenever I am driving to Chabot (about twice a month) I only hear shooting on one particular stretch of the road that is directly above the target line. This is ridiculous!
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Old 01-05-2014, 9:52 PM
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Whenever I am driving to Chabot (about twice a month) I only hear shooting on one particular stretch of the road that is directly above the target line. This is ridiculous!
To us it might seem to be ridiculous. But you forget to take into account who might be in favor of this petition..... people who ignore your rights... my rights... because they only care about what makes them feel better about themselves.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:44 PM
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Shoot I've been to the chabot range frequently the past few years and to be honest how the hell can u hear gun fire through all the hills and so on. You can hear it faintly from the campgrounds depending on where your staying but I've never heard any from the actual park by the lake. More BS being pushed to close down a good range. I actually drive out of my way to shoot there then closer ranges to my house. Lucky my money's been going to them the last 4 weekends not including over the years. Keep us posted if possible.
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Old 01-06-2014, 12:03 AM
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Jorg Rupf, the creator of the petition is the President of Saint George Spirits maker of Hanger One Vodka and other high end liquor. He thinks his opinion is more important then ours. He has the economic and financial clout to get this going.

Maybe Oaklander should have a talk with this fellow..

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Old 01-06-2014, 12:05 AM
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Wait a minute... Would you believe that CA has a "Range Protection" law for this very subject?

From the NRA-ILA site -

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state...alifornia.aspx

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§ 3482. 1. Operation or use of sport shooting ranges; civil liability or criminal prosecution; noise or noise pollution nuisance

(a) As used in this section:

(1) “Person” means an individual, proprietorship, partnership, corporation, club, or other legal entity.

(2) “Sport shooting range” or “range” means an area designed and operated for the use of rifles, shotguns, pistols, silhouettes, skeet, trap, black powder, or any other similar sport or law enforcement training purpose.

(3) “Indoor shooting range” means a totally enclosed facility designed to offer a totally controlled shooting environment that includes impenetrable walls, floor and ceiling, adequate ventilation and lighting systems, and acoustical treatment for sound attenuation suitable for the range's approved use.

(4) “Nighttime” means between the hours of 10 p.m. and 7 a.m.

(b)(1) Except as provided in subdivision (f), a person who operates or uses a sport shooting range in this state shall not be subject to civil liability or criminal prosecution in any matter relating to noise or noise pollution resulting from the operation or use of the range if the range is in compliance with any noise control laws or ordinances that applied to the range and its operation at the time construction or operation of the range was approved by a local public entity having jurisdiction in the matter, or if there were no such laws or ordinances that applied to the range and its operation at that time.

(2) Except as provided in subdivision (f), a person who operates or uses a sport shooting range or law enforcement training range is not subject to an action for nuisance, and a court shall not enjoin the use or operation of a range, on the basis of noise or noise pollution if the range is in compliance with any noise control laws or ordinances that applied to the range and its operation at the time construction or operation of the range was approved by a local public entity having jurisdiction in the matter, or if there were no such laws or ordinances that applied to the range and its operation at that time.

(3) Rules or regulations adopted by any state department or agency for limiting levels of noise in terms of decibel level which may occur in the outdoor atmosphere shall not apply to a sport shooting range exempted from liability under this section.

(c) A person who acquires title to or who owns real property adversely affected by the use of property with a permanently located and improved sport shooting range may not maintain a nuisance action with respect to noise or noise pollution against the person who owns the range to restrain, enjoin, or impede the use of the range where there has been no substantial change in the nature or use of the range. This section does not prohibit actions for negligence or recklessness in the operation of the range or by a person using the range.

(d) A sport shooting range that is in operation and not in violation of existing law at the time of the enactment of an ordinance described in subdivision (b) shall be permitted to continue in operation even if the operation of the sport shooting range at a later date does not conform to a new ordinance or an amendment to an existing ordinance if there has been no substantial change in the nature or use of the range. Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of a local agency to enforce any term of a conditional use permit.

(e) Except as otherwise provided in this section, this section does not prohibit a local public entity having jurisdiction in the matter from regulating the location and construction of a sport shooting range after the effective date of this section.

(f) This section does not prohibit a local public entity having jurisdiction in the matter from requiring that noise levels at the nearest residential property line to a range not exceed the level of normal city street noise which shall not be more than 60 decibels for nighttime shooting. The subdivision does not abrogate any existing local standards for nighttime shooting. The operator of a sport shooting range shall not unreasonably refuse to use trees, shrubs, or barriers, when appropriate, to mitigate the noise generated by nighttime shooting. For the purpose of this section, a reasonable effort to mitigate is an action that can be accomplished in a manner and at a cost that does not impose an unreasonable financial burden upon the operator of the range.

(g) This section does not apply to indoor shooting ranges.

(h) This section does not apply to a range in existence prior to January 1, 1998, that is operated for law enforcement training purposes by a county of the sixth class if the range is located without the boundaries of that county and within the boundaries of another county. This subdivision shall become operative on July 1, 1999.
If I'm reading it right, sounds like the petitioners can go pound sand.
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Old 01-06-2014, 3:46 AM
bootcamp bootcamp is offline
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Close it up, I truly think it's the most POS gun range in the bay area. Screw them, the range masters and their land. Close it, it's all about Livermore or BLM
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Old 01-06-2014, 3:52 AM
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Close it up, I truly think it's the most POS gun range in the bay area. Screw them, the range masters and their land. Close it, it's all about Livermore or BLM
Right, because the bay area has so much open BLM land to shoot on without driving 2 hours to get there in a vehicle that can drive offroad

Sounds more like someone got yelled at over the PA for not following the rules and is still butthurt over it.

Last edited by Merc1138; 01-06-2014 at 4:00 AM..
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Old 01-06-2014, 4:15 AM
Pauliedad Pauliedad is offline
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Bootcamp,
Shortsighted dude.
Closing any range will put pressure on all the others.
Don't give an inch to the antis. Ever.
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Old 01-06-2014, 4:38 AM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
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Bootcamp,
Shortsighted dude.
Closing any range will put pressure on all the others.
Don't give an inch to the antis. Ever.
That too. If Chabot closes, where does he think all of those shooters will end up? Every other range in the area. I doubt he'd like livermore so much if everyone who normally went to chabot drove over there. If I remember right, Livermore only has 30 rifle and pistol lines, doesn't sound fun if you show up then have to wait an hour for a spot to clear.
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Old 01-06-2014, 6:46 AM
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Close it up, I truly think it's the most POS gun range in the bay area. Screw them, the range masters and their land. Close it, it's all about Livermore or BLM
I was going to attempt a longer response but with your comment... All I can come up with is..... Really?
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Old 01-06-2014, 7:14 AM
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Right, because the bay area has so much open BLM land to shoot on without driving 2 hours to get there in a vehicle that can drive offroad

Sounds more like someone got yelled at over the PA for not following the rules and is still butthurt over it.
That's the most likely explanation, yes. I remember when Maunder yelled at me once... Well, I never did that again.
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