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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #1  
Old 12-31-2013, 2:03 PM
runway1 runway1 is offline
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Default Help with IDPA Divisions

Help me understand this:
8.1.1. Division Summary
8.1.1.1. IDPA is divided into five (5) divisions that are entirely separate. None of the following divisions compete against any other division: Stock Service Pistol (SSP); Enhanced Service Pistol (ESP); Custom Defensive Pistol (CDP); Enhanced Service Revolver (ESR); and Stock Service Revolver (SSR).
8.1.1.2. Double action, double action only and striker fired semi-automatic firearms compete in Stock Service Pistol Division (SSP). Any firearm that can be used in SSP can be used in Enhanced Service Pistol Division (ESP) or Custom Defensive Pistol Division (CDP), depending upon the caliber. Single action semi-automatic firearms compete in ESP or CDP, depending upon caliber. Revolvers are classified by loading method and ammunition power.

What does a DA/SA fall in to? Also, I've read that a Springfield XD-M puts you in the ESP Div. I thought the XD-M was a striker fire?

Lastly, what are the biggest differences between USPSA and IDPA?? Thanks all!
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  #2  
Old 12-31-2013, 2:26 PM
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when they list Double-Action and then separately list Double-Action-Only, Double-Action means DA/SA
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  #3  
Old 12-31-2013, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
when they list Double-Action and then separately list Double-Action-Only, Double-Action means DA/SA
Thought so. Just wanted to make sure I assumed correctly. Thanks!
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Old 12-31-2013, 3:19 PM
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Originally Posted by runway1 View Post

Lastly, what are the biggest differences between USPSA and IDPA?? Thanks all!
The difference USPSA and IDPA is 'The Rules', the round count and the equipment. Both are shooting games that are timed and scored which reward speed and accuracy. Keep in mind that IDPA was invented by one of the greatest ever IPSC shooters, Bill Wilson. So for example IDPA requires concealment and cover, USPSA does not. IDPA requires tactical or sequential priority engagement of targets, USPSA does not. USPSA allows as many magazines as you want, IDPA allows only 2 magazines. USPSA allows optics and extended magazines, IDPA does not. USPSA scores on hit factor, IDPA scores on time plus, etc,etc. Just find the nearest match to you and jump in. Tell the match director you are new to competition, some clubs require a safety class prior to a match.

Shoot fast, have fun.

Here is a good read.
http://www.uspsa.org/frontsight_archive/a/2006-03.pdf


Last edited by HighLander51; 12-31-2013 at 3:23 PM..
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Old 12-31-2013, 3:35 PM
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Whichever game you decide to play you are going to need good equipment, so don't cheap out with an Uncle Mikes nylon holster and Walmart belt.

Get a BladeTech straight drop holster, bladetech single mag pouches, Wilderness Original Instructors belt, and electric ears, Peltor Tac 6's are $50 on Amazon.
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  #6  
Old 12-31-2013, 4:33 PM
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orignally xd's were in esp, but the rules changed this year and xd/xdm are in SSP now.

most da/sa guns like a sig p226 or berreta 92f are gonna be in SSP
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  #7  
Old 12-31-2013, 5:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runway1 View Post
What does a DA/SA fall in to? Also, I've read that a Springfield XD-M puts you in the ESP Div. I thought the XD-M was a striker fire?
DA/SA guns are generally legal for SSP and ESP.

Originally, the XD family was not legal for SSP because the BATFE had ruled them as having single-action trigger mechanisms. The rules changed two months ago, and now ALL striker-fired guns are legal in SSP (assuming they meet all other division requirements).

So, an XD can be used in both SSP and ESP. If it is an XD45 (.45acp), then it can be used in SSP, ESP, and CDP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by runway1 View Post
Lastly, what are the biggest differences between USPSA and IDPA?? Thanks all!
At it's simplest level, USPSA is more about speed shooting, while IDPA is scenario-based competition. In USPSA, there is a mental component, since each shooter is allowed to engage the targets in the manner that they feel is most advantageous for them (usually). In IDPA, competitors almost always engage the targets in an identical manner since there are rules about how/when you can engage targets.

Additionally, IDPA has more-stringent rules regarding the amount of movement in a stage and the number of rounds you are required to fire. It is challenging for experienced shooters, but I find that it offers a less-intimidating entrance into gun games than USPSA might.
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  #8  
Old 01-01-2014, 10:05 AM
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That answers a lot for me. Thanks all. Much appreciated!
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  #9  
Old 01-01-2014, 10:59 AM
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How often do you see DA/SA guns in these competitions? I'd think not often.
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Old 01-01-2014, 11:37 AM
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DA/SA guns are pretty popular locally. The most common ones are SIG 220 (CDP) and 226/229 (SSP)...we even had a couple of Pro 2022 recently. Usually a couple of Beretta 92 or 96 (SSP) and H&K USP (SSP/ESP/CDP)

And it isn't just competing, the USP shooter is a pretty consistent Class winner
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  #11  
Old 01-01-2014, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
The rules changed two months ago, and now ALL striker-fired guns are legal in SSP (assuming they meet all other division requirements).
I'm thinking of trying out my H&K P7M8 in SSP this years...just have to shoot more carefully and reload faster to make up for the 2 fewer rounds
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  #12  
Old 01-01-2014, 3:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
How often do you see DA/SA guns in these competitions? I'd think not often.
Sadly, the DA/SA guns like the basic Sigs, HKs, and Berettas are at a mechanical disadvantage over the likes of Glocks and M&Ps (and now XDs) because of that heavy first trigger pull.

Personally, I think SSP should be for the DA/SA and hammer-utilizing DAO guns, while the striker-fired guns should run in their own division. I think it's unfortunate that guns of that quality and popularity are eclipsed by the plastic wonder pistols.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
I'm thinking of trying out my H&K P7M8 in SSP this years...just have to shoot more carefully and reload faster to make up for the 2 fewer rounds
Even if you don't win, it will make you better with the pistol.

I've been shooting revolver a lot this year. Not winning any championships with it, but it a LOT of fun seeing my wheelgun skills develop.
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Last edited by Gryff; 01-01-2014 at 3:12 PM..
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  #13  
Old 01-01-2014, 4:00 PM
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P7M8 is fun too shoot. I used to shoot it in SSP before they moved it to ESP. The only time it becomes a disadvantage is if there is a 18 round stage where you end up doing 2 reloads instead of one. But that doesn't happen that often anymore.
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  #14  
Old 01-01-2014, 5:02 PM
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The DA/SA guns are not at a disadvantage as proven by the fact that the USPSA Nationals have been won by a Beretta. They do however require a shooter that has put n the work to shoot the platform well.
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Old 01-01-2014, 5:09 PM
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Success in any division requires putting in the work, some just require more work then others. I tend to shoot CDP because I think with the small mags and additional recoil it is the toughest division to win. That makes it the most rewarding to win, even better when you can win stages, or matches, outright against the other divisions.
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Old 01-01-2014, 9:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USPSA GM View Post
The DA/SA guns are not at a disadvantage as proven by the fact that the USPSA Nationals have been won by a Beretta. They do however require a shooter that has put n the work to shoot the platform well.
That was 10 years ago. I don't think SSP has been won by anything other than a Glock or M&P since then. BTW, Ernest Langdon (the guy who won SSP with a Beretta) has shot an M&P for the past seven years.

Of course, it is usually the Indian and not the arrow, but from a pure mechanical standpoint, the DA/SA guns are at a disadvantage when compared to the striker-fired guns.
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  #17  
Old 01-02-2014, 7:51 AM
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Actually a guy named Ben Stoeger won the USPSA Nationals the last two years using a Beretta. While the first shot on a DA/SA pistol requires more discipline, the rest of the shots are much better then a striker fired pistol assuming proper tuning. Since there are always (hopefully) more follow up shots then first shots the advantage goes to the DA/SA pistol.

Langdon, like most industry shooters shoot whatever they are paid to shoot, or whatever they get the largest or most profitable support package for. And please, before you tell he said he would shoot it anyway, what else would you expect him to say, "its a piece of **** but hey, I get paid to shot it"?
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  #18  
Old 01-02-2014, 8:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USPSA GM View Post
Actually a guy named Ben Stoeger won the USPSA Nationals the last two years using a Beretta. While the first shot on a DA/SA pistol requires more discipline, the rest of the shots are much better then a striker fired pistol assuming proper tuning. Since there are always (hopefully) more follow up shots then first shots the advantage goes to the DA/SA pistol.

Langdon, like most industry shooters shoot whatever they are paid to shoot, or whatever they get the largest or most profitable support package for. And please, before you tell he said he would shoot it anyway, what else would you expect him to say, "its a piece of **** but hey, I get paid to shot it"?
Funny this comes up. My origianl post was because, after much reading and checking the 2012 IDPA Equipment Survey, I figured I'd surely want to change from the DA/SA (starting with a Beretta 92FS). I'll shoot it up for a few matches and rethink this.

The 2012 survey shows only two 92FS's and something like .....30+ Glock 34's. Glocks, XD's and M&P's make up about 75% of the guns used:
http://www.aafgidpa.com/admin/equpment_survey.htm

Last edited by runway1; 01-02-2014 at 8:56 PM..
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  #19  
Old 01-03-2014, 5:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runway1 View Post
Funny this comes up. My origianl post was because, after much reading and checking the 2012 IDPA Equipment Survey, I figured I'd surely want to change from the DA/SA (starting with a Beretta 92FS). I'll shoot it up for a few matches and rethink this.

The 2012 survey shows only two 92FS's and something like .....30+ Glock 34's. Glocks, XD's and M&P's make up about 75% of the guns used:
http://www.aafgidpa.com/admin/equpment_survey.htm
yea, and there is like one or two Beretta's at big USPSA matches, 65% STI/SVI's, 25% Glocks, and the ten percenter's (XD, M&P's)

Jump in with what you have, there is much, much more to the game than the gun.
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Old 01-03-2014, 7:42 AM
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Will I be the only CZ 75 shooter and at the bottom of the pile
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Old 01-03-2014, 9:07 AM
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Will I be the only CZ 75 shooter and at the bottom of the pile
Only if Agnus Hobdell shows up.... I see a few CZ's at Norco Running Gun, but they are really popular in IPSC.

http://czcustom.com/
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  #22  
Old 01-03-2014, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USPSA GM View Post
The DA/SA guns are not at a disadvantage as proven by the fact that the USPSA Nationals have been won by a Beretta. They do however require a shooter that has put n the work to shoot the platform well.
When was the last time a DA/SA gun won?
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  #23  
Old 01-03-2014, 1:15 PM
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see post #17 above
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Old 01-03-2014, 1:33 PM
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I guess I just like doing things the hard way, 3 dot sights & a combat sight picture on a 42oz Stainless Sig 226. Nothing feels better to me, there is no disadvantage to the DA/SA in my opinion. Knowing your gun and your skills with make the difference.
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Old 01-03-2014, 3:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USPSA GM View Post
Actually a guy named Ben Stoeger won the USPSA Nationals the last two years using a Beretta.
My bad. I was referring to IDPA where a DA/SA gun has not been used by the SSP or ESP national champions since 2004.
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Old 01-03-2014, 7:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
My bad. I was referring to IDPA where a DA/SA gun has not been used by the SSP or ESP national champions since 2004.
I find that interesting considering this was an IDPA discussion.

Scott
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Old 01-04-2014, 6:01 AM
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I think the point was that national championships in this style of shooting were currently being won by DA/SA guns.
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Old 01-05-2014, 2:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rmatt View Post
most da/sa guns like a sig p226 or berreta 92f are gonna be in SSP
Is the rule that DA/SA guns in SSP have to start with the hammer down (double action first pull), and ESP the shooter can start cocked & locked / SA?
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  #29  
Old 01-05-2014, 6:35 PM
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yes
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Old 01-05-2014, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ES13Raven View Post
Is the rule that DA/SA guns in SSP have to start with the hammer down (double action first pull), and ESP the shooter can start cocked & locked / SA?
That's kind of a gray area. As a Match Director, I wouldn't allow it unless the DA/SA gun as a safety that can be activated while the gun is cocked.

Here are the relevant rules:

Quote:
8.2.2.1.6.1. Firearms designed for cocked and locked carry will start cocked and locked (hammer cocked, safety engaged).
8.2.2.1.6.2. Selective DA/SA firearms will start cocked and locked or decocked. This is the shooter’s discretion, including firearms using the SSP into ESP rule.
8.2.2.1.6.3. Double action, double action only, or striker fired firearms with a decocking lever or button will be decocked using the lever or button.
My rationalization is that a) it is generally unsafe to carry a DA/SA gun in SA condition with no safety being utilized, and b) 99.9% of people carry DA/SA guns for concealed carry wouldn't carry their gun this way.

So, I wouldn't allow a Sig or Beretta to start in SA mode in the holster, but I would a DA/SA CZ-type model that does have the cocked-and-locked safety on the gun.

Other MDs may choose differently, but I think most would agree with me.
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Old 01-05-2014, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
So, I wouldn't allow a Sig or Beretta to start in SA mode in the holster, but I would a DA/SA CZ-type model that does have the cocked-and-locked safety on the gun.
I might just have to try my H&K USP in ESP
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Old 01-06-2014, 3:53 PM
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We just had our yearly Classifier Match yesterday and several people classified in SSP, ESP and CDP at the same time by shooting the match with a .45ACP chambered H&P USP, SIG 220, M&P45 or Springfield XD...I guess someone could have used a Glock, but I didn't see one
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Old 01-06-2014, 4:17 PM
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"So, I wouldn't allow a Sig or Beretta to start in SA mode in the holster, but I would a DA/SA CZ-type model that does have the cocked-and-locked safety on the gun."

I'm jumping in with the CZ 75 Compact, may start at the bottom but I "will have fun".
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Old 01-06-2014, 6:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
We just had our yearly Classifier Match yesterday and several people classified in SSP, ESP and CDP at the same time by shooting the match with a .45ACP chambered H&P USP, SIG 220, M&P45 or Springfield XD...I guess someone could have used a Glock, but I didn't see one
Yea, when I was active in IDPA like more than 10 years ago, I used to shoot my G21 in SSP and in CDP downloaded to 8 rounds but kicked up to the major power floor.
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Old 01-17-2014, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by sjm9877 View Post
I guess I just like doing things the hard way, 3 dot sights & a combat sight picture on a 42oz Stainless Sig 226. Nothing feels better to me, there is no disadvantage to the DA/SA in my opinion. Knowing your gun and your skills with make the difference.
What division do you do IDPA? I have the same pistol and love shooting it, but I thought that it's weight puts it in a different division?
Thanks,
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Old 01-17-2014, 11:56 AM
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I hope they change the rules one of these days to let you at least cock the hammer for the first shot. Same way you take an extra step to disengage the safety on SAO gun.
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Old 01-17-2014, 12:12 PM
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I hope they change the rules one of these days to let you at least cock the hammer for the first shot. Same way you take an extra step to disengage the safety on SAO gun.
I don't think there's a rule against cocking the hammer after drawing. I could be wrong though. I've definitely done it at local matches when I was shooting my Beretta and the first shot was pretty far away.
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Old 01-17-2014, 1:00 PM
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The rule is the gun must start with the hammer down. It does not say the first shot must be fired in DA. I have cocked the hammer during the draw on a few stages. Usually on a limited vickers stage where there is a precision first shot. Other than that practicing the DA trigger pull makes a big difference.

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The P226 stainless in now allowed in SSP. The new rule book changed the weight limit.
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Old 01-17-2014, 1:11 PM
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Quote:
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I hope they change the rules one of these days to let you at least cock the hammer for the first shot. Same way you take an extra step to disengage the safety on SAO gun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoner View Post
I don't think there's a rule against cocking the hammer after drawing. I could be wrong though. I've definitely done it at local matches when I was shooting my Beretta and the first shot was pretty far away.
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Originally Posted by sjm9877 View Post
The rule is the gun must start with the hammer down. It does not say the first shot must be fired in DA. I have cocked the hammer during the draw on a few stages. Usually on a limited vickers stage where there is a precision first shot. Other than that practicing the DA trigger pull makes a big difference..
That is correct. There is no prohibition against cocking the hammer manually after you draw the gun from the holster. But if you are going to run a DA/SA gun in the sport, you are better off just learning to manage the initial DA trigger pull.
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Old 01-17-2014, 1:17 PM
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Corpral_Agarn Corpral_Agarn is offline
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Originally Posted by sjm9877 View Post

Coporal_Agarn

The P226 stainless in now allowed in SSP. The new rule book changed the weight limit.
Thanks sjm9877.
My first match is on Sunday, and I will be shooting my P239 but I will be shooting the 226 next time.
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