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  #81  
Old 06-18-2011, 4:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
You can thank Clinton for the 922(r) thing. 922(r) was intended to keep people (companies) from importing parts for long guns which were no longer importable and just building them again. We should really feel lucky that the law allows for as many as 10 imported parts per long gun. It doesn't matter how many US made parts are on your gun just as long as it only has 10 or less imported parts. By removing the PG and muzzle attachment and putting nothing in their places, you need two less US made parts. Get it?
This law is low hanging fruit and could easily be picked off. It could be modified to make an exception for the home builder or totally killed by attaching to some must pass legislation. I just wish the NRA would get on the ball.
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  #82  
Old 07-27-2011, 1:44 PM
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I had sent an email to the ATF on this matter just to have clarification on the laws. as well if I chose not to put markings on a fire arm that wont every be sold was it a problem. here is the result of my inquiry:

This correspondence is in response to your recent inquiry emailed to the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) concerning
marking of firearms manufactured for personal use.

As you may know, a significant part of the Federal firearms law
provisions concerns the requirements pertaining to the manufacture,
importation, distribution, possession, and sale of firearms. Under
Federal law, an unlicensed individual may make a "firearm." The term
"firearm" includes the following:
... (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed
to or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by the action of an
explosive: (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm
muffler or silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not
include an antique firearm.

We suggest that you at least identify the firearm with a serial number
as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also,
the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is
lawfully transferred to another person in the future. Additional
information concerning unlicensed persons is available at:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html. Please note
that depending on the extent of your manufacturing activities you might
need to apply for a Federal firearms license (FFL). Information on how
to become an FFL is available at:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/become-an-ffl.html.

Also, ATF does not have jurisdiction over State laws. You should also
contact your local law enforcement agency and/or State Attorney General
to inquire about local or State requirements that may apply to firearms
manufactured for personal use. A listing of the State Attorney
general's offices is available online at www.naag.org.

We trust this correspondence has been responsive to your inquiry.
Should you have any further questions, please feel free to contact your
local ATF Industry Operations Office. A list of ATF Office telephone
numbers can be found at http://www.atf.gov/field.

Regards,

Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF
- Show quoted text -

hopefully this helps as well. or maybe the point has been beaten to death. whatever...
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  #83  
Old 07-27-2011, 3:41 PM
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I can make a silencer?! Damn that's awesome. So, in a free state, you just apply for the stamp, build it, and you're good to go?.....
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  #84  
Old 07-27-2011, 3:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Arisaka View Post
I can make a silencer?! Damn that's awesome. So, in a free state, you just apply for the stamp, build it, and you're good to go?.....
Yep. But for a couple hundred dollars for a proffessionally designed and built one, it's normally better to purchase one.
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  #85  
Old 07-29-2011, 10:05 AM
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What a cool project that would be though. If it works, you have a supressor for $200+materials and you are a bona fide badass!
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  #86  
Old 11-14-2011, 7:47 AM
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I have seen minimum and maximum lengths for homebuilt pistols (both overall and barrel lengths) talked about in several threads, but I can’t find them now.

Does anyone have this information handy?
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  #87  
Old 11-14-2011, 1:15 PM
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Originally Posted by VaderSpade View Post
I have seen minimum and maximum lengths for homebuilt pistols (both overall and barrel lengths) talked about in several threads, but I cant find them now.

Does anyone have this information handy?
initial minimum length,
12133(b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

maximum length, otherwise it might not be considered a pistol anymore,
12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
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  #88  
Old 12-01-2011, 6:14 PM
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I didn't get useful answers in my other post, so I'll try here.

I don't plan to sell a home-built pistol, but I expect a child to inherit it sometime. Presumably the heir would need to register it, so it would need a serial number. Would my initials be a sufficient identifier for the manufacturer or would I need to engrave my last name?
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  #89  
Old 12-01-2011, 6:24 PM
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Just my opinion as builder, and i asked earlier in this thread...

I think initials are enough
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  #90  
Old 12-02-2011, 12:08 AM
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Thats what I was told a while back, when I was doing my first build.

As long as you have something to identify it as yours. Some guys put initials, DL # (that one I am dead against) and other markings. Myself, I would just put the last four of my Social Security #. And that's what I plan on doing with my next build.

What a better way to say it's mine with something that personal...

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  #91  
Old 01-03-2012, 9:06 AM
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Happy New Year!

Can someone not prohibited from owning firearms build a single shot handgun from an 80% receiver? If yes, should he register the gun with CA from FD4542A and pay $19?

Thanks.
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  #92  
Old 01-03-2012, 9:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ATS76 View Post
Happy New Year!

Can someone not prohibited from owning firearms build a single shot handgun from an 80% receiver? If yes, should he register the gun with CA from FD4542A and pay $19?

Thanks.
answered in the other thread where you posted the same question.
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  #93  
Old 03-06-2012, 1:00 AM
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Related to this topic, how would I go about stamping my own serial number into an AK flat before bending/welding/torching/coating? I know Harbor Freight carries letter punches, but I'm not sure if they're rated for this type of steel. I'd rather punch the number for that "professional look" rather than hand-engraving with a dremel.
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  #94  
Old 03-22-2012, 7:30 AM
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I bought the punches I used from michaels. 1/16 for location and first part of serial number as well as city and state, and 1/4" for all actual numbers. I got a numbers matching parts kit, so I used the four digit serial number it had with my initials. Now everything should match and be pretty easy to id. It looks alright, and I can send you a picture if you want.
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  #95  
Old 03-22-2012, 9:44 AM
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I got some 1/8" punches from Utopia Tools {San Clemente}
They do a lot of the gun shows and have a LOT of tables.
The punches were inexpensive and are holding up really well.
They are the ones in a red plastic box.
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  #96  
Old 05-24-2012, 8:45 AM
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can you guys point or show me the laws on manufacturing a pistol frame (like 1911) for my own use ???

or is home made firearms only good for long guns ???

thing is I can use a cnc mil to fabricate my own 1911 and 2011 frames and since we cannot buy them new here ( unless ppt) I was trying to see if its possible and legal. To machine a frame myself...

Last edited by RippSpeed; 05-24-2012 at 8:47 AM..
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  #97  
Old 05-24-2012, 9:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RippSpeed View Post
can you guys point or show me the laws on manufacturing a pistol frame (like 1911) for my own use ???

or is home made firearms only good for long guns ???

thing is I can use a cnc mil to fabricate my own 1911 and 2011 frames and since we cannot buy them new here ( unless ppt) I was trying to see if its possible and legal. To machine a frame myself...
Just like a rifle, totally legal. People are buy and machining 1911 80% paperweights into firearms for the reasons you mention.

Laws don't tell you what you CAN do, they tell you what you CANNOT do. Unless expressly prohibited by law, it is still our god given right to do what we want to. (for now)

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  #98  
Old 07-14-2012, 12:02 AM
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Gene, how do these rules affect a home-MODIFIED gun?

I'm right now building the pieces needed to make major changes to my Ruger New Vaquero. Right now it's a 357Magnum, marked as such with the factory SN.

When the conversion is done it will be permanently changed to a 9mmPara, with a replacement cylinder and a true .355 barrel. (Plus magazine feeding and gas ejection of empties.)

My understanding is that any permanent caliber change of this nature would require a professional gunsmith to have a handgun manufacturer's licence and re-mark the gun in question at least as to caliber, and a lot of these guys like Gary Reeder also put a new serial number on. At that point the gun is legally no longer a "Ruger", it's a "Gary Reeder" somethingorother.

I also recall that a bunch of gunsmiths doing caliber conversions were busted by ATF some years back, in a sort of sweep.

So...am I going to end up in a position where I need to at a minimum scratch out "357" and put in "9mm Para"?
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  #99  
Old 09-13-2012, 8:23 AM
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The way I'm reading it, federal law says that ALL firearms shall have a serial number if manufactured after 1968. If the weapon is a manufactured at home type, the ATF will issue a serial number for it but you have to apply for it. I am an FFL holder and questioned an ATF field agent about this.
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  #100  
Old 09-13-2012, 8:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1JimMarch View Post
Gene, how do these rules affect a home-MODIFIED gun?

I'm right now building the pieces needed to make major changes to my Ruger New Vaquero. Right now it's a 357Magnum, marked as such with the factory SN.

When the conversion is done it will be permanently changed to a 9mmPara, with a replacement cylinder and a true .355 barrel. (Plus magazine feeding and gas ejection of empties.)

My understanding is that any permanent caliber change of this nature would require a professional gunsmith to have a handgun manufacturer's licence and re-mark the gun in question at least as to caliber, and a lot of these guys like Gary Reeder also put a new serial number on. At that point the gun is legally no longer a "Ruger", it's a "Gary Reeder" somethingorother.

I also recall that a bunch of gunsmiths doing caliber conversions were busted by ATF some years back, in a sort of sweep.

So...am I going to end up in a position where I need to at a minimum scratch out "357" and put in "9mm Para"?
The current ATF policy would say its a new manufacture but I don't know if you'd have to change the serial number. In fact it is illegal to do anything with the serial number that's on it. Call DOJ and ask.
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  #101  
Old 09-13-2012, 8:29 AM
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There is no legal requirement that I'm aware of to put the caliber on the barrel. That's more of a liability issue. Lothar Walther doesn't stamp the caliber on their finished barrels.
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  #102  
Old 09-13-2012, 8:32 AM
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Please post the law and where you are getting your information.

I believe you are reading about what is required for "manufactures" with FFL's???

Quote:
Originally Posted by glane5910 View Post
The way I'm reading it, federal law says that ALL firearms shall have a serial number if manufactured after 1968. If the weapon is a manufactured at home type, the ATF will issue a serial number for it but you have to apply for it. I am an FFL holder and questioned an ATF field agent about this.
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  #103  
Old 09-13-2012, 8:34 AM
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The way I'm reading it, federal law says that ALL firearms shall have a serial number if manufactured after 1968.
ALL firearms made by a license manufacturer.

The CGA requirement for markings does not apply to non-licensees.


Quote:
If the weapon is a manufactured at home type, the ATF will issue a serial number for it but you have to apply for it.
what form do you use to request this ATF issued serial number?

Quote:
I am an FFL holder and questioned an ATF field agent about this.
do you have this in writing? Even field agents will misquote the law, expecially when asked verbally. When a written request is made, they seem to be more accurate in what the law actually says.
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  #104  
Old 09-13-2012, 8:35 AM
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Please post the law and where you are getting your information.

I believe you are reading about what is required for "manufactures" with FFL's???
I'll dig out the Fed regs and post. You are manufacturing a firearm regardless where you build it. You aren't required to pay excise tax unless you build 51 weapons per year.
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  #105  
Old 09-13-2012, 8:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
ALL firearms made by a license manufacturer.

The CGA requirement for markings does not apply to non-licensees.


what form do you use to request this ATF issued serial number?

do you have this in writing? Even field agents will misquote the law, expecially when asked verbally. When a written request is made, they seem to be more accurate in what the law actually says.
I doubt you'll get any field agent to put anything "in writing". Application
ATF F 1 (5320.1)
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  #106  
Old 09-13-2012, 8:51 AM
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I doubt you'll get any field agent to put anything "in writing". Application
ATF F 1 (5320.1)
I am familiar with the Form 1 app. That is to request permission to make a title II firearm like an AOW, SBS, SBR, or MG. And you have to pay $200 when you submit that form.. It is not for title I firearms. We do not have to pay to make title I firearms.
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  #107  
Old 09-13-2012, 8:55 AM
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The Form 1 was just the 1st one I found. Haven't looked at it in depth, couldn't open it to read it. I just moved back to Bakersfield from Susanville. All of my regs are still packed. I got my info from the Codified regulations that ATF gave me. I'll dig it all out and post. There are so many what I believe are grey areas. One section will say "X" and then 2 pages over it contradicts what "X" just said.
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  #108  
Old 09-13-2012, 8:57 AM
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I'll dig out the Fed regs and post. You are manufacturing a firearm regardless where you build it. You aren't required to pay excise tax unless you build 51 weapons per year.
did you even read the OP. in there is a link from Sterling Nixon, at the time the Chief of the Tech Branch. In there, he puts it in writing that you don't have to mark a homebuilt firearm for personal use. http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BAT...2004-11-09.pdf
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  #109  
Old 09-13-2012, 9:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
did you even read the OP. in there is a link from Sterling Nixon, at the time the Chief of the Tech Branch. In there, he puts it in writing that you don't have to mark a homebuilt firearm for personal use. http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BAT...2004-11-09.pdf
Thanks for the link. That was 2004 and a much different administration. Who knows if its still the "understood" policy. I'd want a clarification from current ATF. They had a whole different view of what constituted manufacture of a firearm back then also.
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  #110  
Old 09-13-2012, 9:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1JimMarch View Post
Gene, how do these rules affect a home-MODIFIED gun?

I'm right now building the pieces needed to make major changes to my Ruger New Vaquero. Right now it's a 357Magnum, marked as such with the factory SN.

When the conversion is done it will be permanently changed to a 9mmPara, with a replacement cylinder and a true .355 barrel. (Plus magazine feeding and gas ejection of empties.)

My understanding is that any permanent caliber change of this nature would require a professional gunsmith to have a handgun manufacturer's licence and re-mark the gun in question at least as to caliber, and a lot of these guys like Gary Reeder also put a new serial number on. At that point the gun is legally no longer a "Ruger", it's a "Gary Reeder" somethingorother.

I also recall that a bunch of gunsmiths doing caliber conversions were busted by ATF some years back, in a sort of sweep.

So...am I going to end up in a position where I need to at a minimum scratch out "357" and put in "9mm Para"?
If you are going to transfer it, it might need to be remarked. But, for personal use, it is not legally required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glane5910 View Post
The way I'm reading it, federal law says that ALL firearms shall have a serial number if manufactured after 1968. If the weapon is a manufactured at home type, the ATF will issue a serial number for it but you have to apply for it. I am an FFL holder and questioned an ATF field agent about this.

You are reading it wrong. Homebuilt firearms are not being built to sell or otherwise transfer. So, they do not require ANd or manufacturer's markings unless they are transferred.
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  #111  
Old 09-13-2012, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by glane5910 View Post
Thanks for the link. That was 2004 and a much different administration. Who knows if its still the "understood" policy. I'd want a clarification from current ATF. They had a whole different view of what constituted manufacture of a firearm back then also.
I looked and looked but for the life of me can't find what I had remembered reading. It was over a year ago so I guess it could've been something under NFA regs and not the GCA of 1968.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:17 AM
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  #113  
Old 09-13-2012, 10:20 AM
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I don't have a problem correcting what say that could be incorrect!!
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:29 AM
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I would think once the bbl hits 16" its considered a rifle isn't it?
its not a rifle until it has a shoulder stock on it (definition of a rifle requires that it be designed to be fired from the shoulder).
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Old 09-14-2012, 9:53 AM
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its not a rifle until it has a shoulder stock on it (definition of a rifle requires that it be designed to be fired from the shoulder).
Correct but basically so is a shotgun . That didn't stop them here from banning Taurus Judges as "short barreled shotguns"
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Roccobro View Post
Just like a rifle, totally legal. People are buy and machining 1911 80% paperweights into firearms for the reasons you mention.

Laws don't tell you what you CAN do, they tell you what you CANNOT do. Unless expressly prohibited by law, it is still our god given right to do what we want to. (for now)

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so with the Ares 1911 frames coming to the market soon, maybe it's the right time to ask this question. Most people will probably use a 5" barrel for their 1911, but don't you need a 6" + barrel for a single shot pistol? I mean that's why when you go to a shop and they provide SSE service, you first "walk out" with a long barrel and sled, right? Will this also be the case for "building" your own 1911 for the first time vs. converting an existing gun.
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jingerale View Post
so with the Ares 1911 frames coming to the market soon, maybe it's the right time to ask this question. Most people will probably use a 5" barrel for their 1911, but don't you need a 6" + barrel for a single shot pistol? I mean that's why when you go to a shop and they provide SSE service, you first "walk out" with a long barrel and sled, right? Will this also be the case for "building" your own 1911 for the first time vs. converting an existing gun.
How do you get past the Calif lab test requirement unless you build as a single shot?
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:24 AM
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How do you get past the Calif lab test requirement unless you build as a single shot?
well, that's exactly what I said, you have to do it as a single shot. Just wondering if people are even aware of a barrel length requirement when it comes to single shots, unless I'm wrong about it. Most of the time, when we discuss single shot here, it's about AR pistols, and generally, the barrels on AR pistols are what 7" to 10.5" inches? So this question doesn't come up very often.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:09 AM
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I'm wondering out loud here but why would someone want to build a single shot 1911?(besides the because I can answer). Why not work with a smith/ffl and get a frame, do the single shot conversion then DROS it out a a single shot. After that, you can do as you please.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:34 PM
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I also believe a single shot pistol must also be 10 1/2 inches over all.

Quote " why would someone want to build a single shot 1911?"

Because there is no law saying you can't convert it after you build it as a single shot.
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