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  #1  
Old 02-09-2008, 3:14 PM
Ech0Sierra Ech0Sierra is offline
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Default Shooting range on International Waters?

What do you think of a deactivated aircraft carrier permanently anchored in International Waters being used as a shooting range? I know we need backstops, a long-arse anchor chain, and other things, but do you think it's possible? That 300 meter flight deck is calling me for some reason. Maybe it's also the fact that it's on the High Seas. Goodbye, NFA, you don't exist! What do you guys think?
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  #2  
Old 02-09-2008, 3:25 PM
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I believe firing a firearm in international waters is a known signal of distress and you'll have any local vessels come to help.

Or maybe that's just US waters...
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  #3  
Old 02-09-2008, 3:27 PM
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Originally Posted by NeoWeird View Post
I believe firing a firearm in international waters is a known signal of distress and you'll have any local vessels come to help.

Or maybe that's just US waters...
If the NFA isn't in force there, sound suppressors ought to do the trick
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  #4  
Old 02-09-2008, 3:30 PM
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Originally Posted by NeoWeird View Post
I believe firing a firearm in international waters is a known signal of distress and you'll have any local vessels come to help.

Or maybe that's just US waters...
Gee, all the cruises I've been on had clay shooting.
Also,
USS Missouri, location unknown

USS Wasp, Gulf of Oman
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  #5  
Old 02-09-2008, 5:30 PM
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Well the US Exclusive Economic Zone extends 200 miles from shore and International water are outside that.....bring lots of anchor chain it will be many thousands of feet deep.
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  #6  
Old 02-09-2008, 5:37 PM
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Dang, anyone wanna pitch in? I wonder if we can sneak into the Exclusive Economic Zone, it's not like we're drilling for oil or fishing, right? Maybe the Contiguous Zone? I don't think it would violate "customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial sea."
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I'd have my face hunched so low I'd be able to do coke lines off the buffer tube with my eyelids.

Last edited by Ech0Sierra; 02-09-2008 at 5:44 PM..
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Old 02-09-2008, 5:41 PM
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Hey, that's pretty cool, EchoSierra. Do they keep some of the nicer hunting variety shotties in the armory for just such a purpose? Or are they on hand in case some bird control may be needed somewhere? That's great that the Navy lets you shoot clays off the ships.

(O noes , I just called shotguns shotties, I hope the ATA members in the shotty vs. AR as the only gun thread don't come down on me like wraths of god! )

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Gee, all the cruises I've been on had clay shooting.
USS Wasp, Gulf of Oman
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  #8  
Old 02-09-2008, 5:44 PM
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Actually internatioal waters is a lot closer in. EEZ is a different matter completely.

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Well the US Exclusive Economic Zone extends 200 miles from shore and International water are outside that.....bring lots of anchor chain it will be many thousands of feet deep.
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  #9  
Old 02-09-2008, 5:59 PM
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Hey, that's pretty cool, EchoSierra. Do they keep some of the nicer hunting variety shotties in the armory for just such a purpose? Or are they on hand in case some bird control may be needed somewhere? That's great that the Navy lets you shoot clays off the ships.

(O noes , I just called shotguns shotties, I hope the ATA members in the shotty vs. AR as the only gun thread don't come down on me like wraths of god! )
Maybe they're for the Officers' amusement. I'd expect the armory on an Aircraft carrier to be about 6,000 M9s and M4s, ready to be used by pilots, cooks, doctors, maintenance, mechanics, officers, and a couple Marines.
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  #10  
Old 02-09-2008, 6:03 PM
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On second thought, we better not risk waking he who lies not dead but dreaming

In all fairness it seems unlikely that small arm fire will succeed where 16in naval guns have heretofore failed, but can we afford to take that risk?
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  #11  
Old 02-09-2008, 6:06 PM
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that will be illegal to have guns on board a ship.---> see here http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=86085










just joking
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Old 02-09-2008, 6:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Ech0Sierra View Post
Dang, anyone wanna pitch in? I wonder if we can sneak into the Exclusive Economic Zone, it's not like we're drilling for oil or fishing, right? Maybe the Contiguous Zone? I don't think it would violate "customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial sea."
"Pitch in"?? Like to buy a carrier?

Maybe i'm just gullible or oblivious, but is this a real idea? It sounds cool...
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  #13  
Old 02-09-2008, 6:21 PM
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I meant the chain, and this is just saturday daydreaming...
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  #14  
Old 02-09-2008, 6:25 PM
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I think it would be the least pirated ship.
(RIB with gunmen 150 yards away)
ATTENTION SHOOTERS! NOW IS OUR MANDATORY MOVING TARGET DRILL! THE TARGET IS 120 METERS OFF THE STARBOARD BOW! ADJUST YOUR AIM ACCORDINGLY. (No more pirates.)
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  #15  
Old 02-09-2008, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Ech0Sierra View Post
Maybe they're for the Officers' amusement. I'd expect the armory on an Aircraft carrier to be about 6,000 M9s and M4s, ready to be used by pilots, cooks, doctors, maintenance, mechanics, officers, and a couple Marines.
More like 60 M9's, 10 M16A2, 20 M16M4, 10 M14's, 20 12ga shotguns, 10 M249's, 12 .50cals 2 CIWS' and 2 NATO Sea Sparrows . . .

Not nearly the arsenal you think there would be with 5,000 +/- personnel
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  #16  
Old 02-09-2008, 6:47 PM
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Actually internatioal waters is a lot closer in. EEZ is a different matter completely.


Internal, International. Two different words
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  #17  
Old 02-09-2008, 7:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Ech0Sierra View Post
Maybe they're for the Officers' amusement. I'd expect the armory on an Aircraft carrier to be about 6,000 M9s and M4s, ready to be used by pilots, cooks, doctors, maintenance, mechanics, officers, and a couple Marines.
The armory on the carrier I was on had practically nothing as far as small arms go,I visited often to check out keys and could clearly see that we didn't have jack, the ships magazines on the other hand were very well stocked.
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  #18  
Old 02-09-2008, 7:15 PM
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The armory on the carrier I was on had practically nothing as far as small arms go,I visited often to check out keys and could clearly see that we didn't have jack, the ships magazines on the other hand were very well stocked.
Better hope you never have to repel boarders
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  #19  
Old 02-09-2008, 8:04 PM
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Actually, that wiki diagram is a really unfortunate simplification of where a country may exercise its control, and someone should correct it. Although wiki is really not a definitive reference, here's a better version of what it should be on there: Better definitions of various territorial waters on wiki. In common, and extremely simplified but internationally-recognized usage, international water is beyond the 12-nm territorial water claim, although lately countries have been extending that to 24-nm, US being one, and there're still debates about that. EEZ's really only apply to economic resources like fish, and it's a practice that kinda got started arbitrarily by countries. U.S. did not even recognize EEZ's till relatively recently, and the Russians and Japanese had been harvesting fish and crabs off the coast of Alaskan islands like mad. Even minerals and oil rights which used to fall under EEZ's are getting shifted to the continental shelf zone lately in huge brouhahas that are basically attempts to grab even more resource rights. EEZ's do not restrict other foreign naval vessels from entering and operating in that zone, for example. And it certainly does not apply in light of what we're discussing, namely having a floating shooting range. Other laws of the sea will apply, but not the EEZ. UN Convention on the Law of the Sea would be a more definitive reference. (It's still very murky there. And yes, yes, I know. We don't like the UN here. )

Internal water really has no bearing in what we're discussing here even further. In most cases, internal waters are inland waterways, lakes, and such which are unquestionably a country's sovereign territory. What is important here is the baseline and its measurement outward. As an aside, this whole internal water thing does get interesting in places like Gulf of Sidra.

But really, laws of the sea usually are written by those who have the bigger guns.

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(*Misleading wiki diagram on water zones deleted.)

Internal, International. Two different words

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Old 02-09-2008, 8:08 PM
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exclusive economic zone extends for 200 nautical miles (370 km) beyond the baselines of the territorial sea, thus it includes the territorial sea and its contiguous zone.[3] A coastal nation has control of all economic resources within its exclusive economic zone, including fishing, mining, oil exploration, and any pollution of those resources. However, it cannot regulate or prohibit passage or loitering above, on, or under the surface of the sea, whether innocent or belligerent, within that portion of its exclusive economic zone beyond its territorial sea.
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Old 02-09-2008, 8:46 PM
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Hey JHC, so any clue why those hunting shotguns might be onboard in the pics that ES showed? Again, I think it's great they get to have them and shoot clays with them, and it'd be great if the Navy is flexible enough to have such morale-boosting equipment onboard, but I wonder if there's other stated purpose for them, or if they have to be brought on under other "official uses".

Oh, and over at Arfcom they tried to start a group buy when that Russian carrier was up for sale a few years ago. The Chinese ended up buying it.

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The armory on the carrier I was on had practically nothing as far as small arms go,I visited often to check out keys and could clearly see that we didn't have jack, the ships magazines on the other hand were very well stocked.
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Old 02-09-2008, 9:12 PM
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"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu Rl'yeh wgah'nagl fhtagn"!
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Old 02-09-2008, 9:24 PM
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Hey JHC, so any clue why those hunting shotguns might be onboard in the pics that ES showed? Again, I think it's great they get to have them and shoot clays with them, and it'd be great if the Navy is flexible enough to have such morale-boosting equipment onboard, but I wonder if there's other stated purpose for them, or if they have to be brought on under other "official uses".

Oh, and over at Arfcom they tried to start a group buy when that Russian carrier was up for sale a few years ago. The Chinese ended up buying it.


Next russian carrier on the market we do a group buy.. who's with me?

I also see the occasional Hind on ebay, anyone wanna go in on one?
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Old 02-10-2008, 7:57 AM
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Hey JHC, so any clue why those hunting shotguns might be onboard in the pics that ES showed? Again, I think it's great they get to have them and shoot clays with them, and it'd be great if the Navy is flexible enough to have such morale-boosting equipment onboard, but I wonder if there's other stated purpose for them, or if they have to be brought on under other "official uses".

Oh, and over at Arfcom they tried to start a group buy when that Russian carrier was up for sale a few years ago. The Chinese ended up buying it.
I have no clue as to why they had all of the nice shotguns on board, we stood brow watch with Mossburg pumps but that was a while back. We did have clay shoots (Weapons Dept and Mardet only) off of the fantail on a couple of occasions.
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Old 02-10-2008, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by t001 View Post
Hey JHC, so any clue why those hunting shotguns might be onboard in the pics that ES showed? Again, I think it's great they get to have them and shoot clays with them, and it'd be great if the Navy is flexible enough to have such morale-boosting equipment onboard, but I wonder if there's other stated purpose for them, or if they have to be brought on under other "official uses".

Oh, and over at Arfcom they tried to start a group buy when that Russian carrier was up for sale a few years ago. The Chinese ended up buying it.
Its not that unusual to have sporting clay shoots inboard. as JHC said, MarDet and the weapons dept have shoots off the fantail all the time. "FamFires" are designed for that. Anytime we did a walkthru for an upcoming op we tried to do live fire on the fantail as we did our walkthru. The sporting clays more than likely are part of the MWR section (morale, welfare, recreation). Ive seen it many times where folks have even brought their own, and if the skipper is cool with it, they use them off the side as seen in the pics.


As far as the whole ship thing! Hell yea! Count me in! I say we go down to the mothball fleet down by Martinez and pirate ourselves a ship from there! ARRghghgh!! I mean, buy one! From there, put that baby out 25 miles and we got ourselves a outdoor shooting range! International Waters is only 24 miles,so that extra mile is to be safe!
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Old 02-10-2008, 2:10 PM
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My first couple of ships had a couple of nice skeet guns, a thrower and ammo. Gave us something to do on "Beer Days" or that lazy Sunday while your floating around the Indian Ocean at $5 to MWR for a box of shells.

Most of the MWR weapons were pulled off the ship's sometime in the mid-90's. Mostly due to the inability for Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA) to track recalls of civilian ammunition. With the military stuff, problematic ammunition is tracked by lot numbers and a NAR (Naval Ammunition Reclassification) is issued directing ships and shore activities to offload or dispose of the ammunition in question.

Or as an XO I had told myself and the Weapons Officer, "Get that S**T off of my ship". It had something to do with the CO not being comfortable conducting a skeet shoot off the fantail.
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Old 02-10-2008, 3:47 PM
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As far as the whole ship thing! Hell yea! Count me in! I say we go down to the mothball fleet down by Martinez and pirate ourselves a ship from there! ARRghghgh!! I mean, buy one!
SF, How about we go after the one with the 16in guns. I mean it's right their on the end of the 3rd row. What better ship to have to shoot guns out on the high seas. Shoulder fire then turrent fire.
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Old 02-10-2008, 3:53 PM
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As far as the whole ship thing! Hell yea! Count me in! I say we go down to the mothball fleet down by Martinez and pirate ourselves a ship from there! ARRghghgh!! I mean, buy one! From there, put that baby out 25 miles and we got ourselves a outdoor shooting range! International Waters is only 24 miles,so that extra mile is to be safe!
I want to see how many of you will puke your guts out!
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Old 02-10-2008, 3:54 PM
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SF, How about we go after the one with the 16in guns. I mean it's right their on the end of the 3rd row. What better ship to have to shoot guns out on the high seas. Shoulder fire then turrent fire.
Yeah, but think of the cost per round. On second thought, don't go there.

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Old 02-10-2008, 3:56 PM
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I want to see how many of you will puke your guts out!
Altitude, disorientation, sea travel - I'm loving it. The prospect of Hillary as POTUS, however, is enough to make me lose my lunch.
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Old 02-10-2008, 11:26 PM
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Yeah, but think of the cost per round. On second thought, don't go there.

But, weve got calgun'ers who as reloading guru's. Im sure we can get them to reload some rounds for us, if we can save the brass that is. . . . .

"how many grains of powder did you say you need?. . . . ."

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I want to see how many of you will puke your guts out!
Ive only gotten seasick one time, and that was on the ferry from Fajardo to Culebra in Puerto Rico. Dont know why it happened, it just did. Ive never had the problem before or since and I love being on boats.
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Old 02-10-2008, 11:37 PM
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The prospect of Hillary as POTUS, however, is enough to make me lose my lunch.
I can't even puke after one too many anymore, but that one is making my stomach turn as well.
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Old 02-10-2008, 11:39 PM
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But, weve got calgun'ers who as reloading guru's. Im sure we can get them to reload some rounds for us, if we can save the brass that is. . . . .
"how many grains of powder did you say you need?. . . . ."
Time to get bigger press.
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:34 AM
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Hmmm... dies the size of your computer... think of switching calibers!!!!!
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Old 02-11-2008, 7:04 PM
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The 16" guns on the Iowa class battleships don't use cartridge ammo.
We'll need silk sacks and 8 pounds of powder per bag.
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Old 02-11-2008, 7:31 PM
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655 lbs for a full bore load X 7000 = 4585000 grains of powder to get the 2700 projectile moving at about 2500 fps for max range of approximately 24 or so miles
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Last edited by SDJim; 02-11-2008 at 7:46 PM.. Reason: Fat fingering 24 as 34
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Old 02-11-2008, 7:47 PM
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655 lbs for a full bore load X 7000 = 4585000 grains of powder to get the 2700 projectile moving at about 2500 fps for max range of approximately 24 or so miles
655lbs of powder

Either someone needs a smokeless powder permit, or we get 33 Calgunners to bring 19.85lbs each
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Old 02-11-2008, 7:54 PM
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655 lbs for a full bore load X 7000 = 4585000 grains of powder to get the 2700 projectile moving at about 2500 fps for max range of approximately 24 or so miles

yea, but whats considered a good minute of angle for it?
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Old 02-11-2008, 8:09 PM
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yea, but whats considered a good minute of angle for it?
1 MOA = 1" @ 100 yards

24miles --> 1760 yards in a mile = 42,240 yards

42,240 yards / 100 = 422.4"

1 MOA @ 24 miles = 422.4"

= 35.2' @ 24 miles

Maybe if we handload with match grade powder and shells we can get sub-MOA results
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Old 02-11-2008, 8:48 PM
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yea, but whats considered a good minute of angle for it?
Isn't the optimal angle for artillery right around 45?
Any Red-Legs around to chime in??
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Last edited by SDJim; 02-11-2008 at 8:49 PM.. Reason: I suck at spelling, and most other things as well.
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