Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > CALIFORNIA SHOOTING CLUBS AND ORGANIZATIONS > The Appleseed Project
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

The Appleseed Project The Revolutionary War Veterans Association

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-26-2013, 7:28 AM
BigJ's Avatar
BigJ BigJ is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,153
iTrader: 66 / 100%
Default Appleseed Riflemen: What's your ideal Appleseed rifle?

Last weekend I attended my first Appleseed and had an amazing time. The guns, the training, the history, the stories, the people, the message... just awesome.

To pay tribute and honor the riflemen of old, my goal was to earn my patch using a basic gun with iron sights. Now that I've accomplished that, I'm starting to think about what gun to try with next. I'm especially excited to earn a patch at an actual distance (sorry forgot the term) test held at other ranges that support it.

To make a long story short, my question is this: Appleseed Riflemen, ignore ammo costs and spare no expense... what do you consider to be your ideal rifle for scoring your best on an Appleseed AQT?
__________________
"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave." - Elmer Davis

Last edited by BigJ; 11-26-2013 at 7:34 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-26-2013, 8:20 AM
as_rocketman's Avatar
as_rocketman as_rocketman is offline
CGSSA Leader
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pasadena
Posts: 884
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

If you're shooting a KD event (Known Distance), .22 LR isn't going to make it. We shoot out to 400 meters. Just about any centerfire will, though.

The rifle needs to fit you very well. It needs to have precise click-adjustable sights, and it needs to be reliable enough to get through timed stages. After that it's all personal choice.

Out of my personal battery, the easiest KD rifle is definitely this one:

My eyesight is marginal on Stage 4, and this fighting optic is specifically designed to engage D-targets (or their equivalent) at various ranges...

However, the BEST rifle for a KD AQT -- and I believe we have consensus among the many Rifleman on this one -- is here:
__________________
Riflemen Needed.

Ask me about Appleseed! Send a PM or see me in the Appleseed subforum.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-26-2013, 8:36 AM
BigJ's Avatar
BigJ BigJ is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,153
iTrader: 66 / 100%
Default

"Known distance", that's the phrase I was looking for. Thanks!

The Garand is a must, no doubt. I don't currently own one, but that will change after I attend one of the CMP AMC's... in about a year. Too long to wait before attending a KD event

Can you give me a bit more detail on that build of yours? Looks impressive!

Thanks for the info.
__________________
"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave." - Elmer Davis

Last edited by BigJ; 11-26-2013 at 8:42 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-26-2013, 8:50 AM
as_rocketman's Avatar
as_rocketman as_rocketman is offline
CGSSA Leader
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pasadena
Posts: 884
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Build details:

Very old Eagle Arms EA-15. 16" 1:9 twist HBAR, fluted, chrome-lined barrel, bolt, and NATO-spec chamber. Carbine-length action and buffer. Fixed A2 stock. A2 birdcage flash hider. Aluminum free-float tube.

I've had this for decades and have made a few repairs and changes over the years. Rebuilt onto a stripped YHM upper. Replaced GI trigger with Giessele SSA. YHM railed gas block with bayonet lug. Irons are GG&G, MAD in back. Optic is ACOG TA-33GH on a LaRue mount. Bayonet lug has a cheapo CAA rail adapter and a Streamlight TLR-1, which of course are no use at all on an AQT.

I've wrapped the free-float tube with paracord, and -- of course -- use an M1 GI sling.

With this setup I'm good for 2.5 MOA with M193 ammo, unsupported, any day of the year.

I'm sure few reading would consider this an ideal setup, but I've had this rifle forever, even put so many rounds through it that I wore out the stock trigger. I've shot it in rain, snow, blowing sand, at night. It just plain runs.
__________________
Riflemen Needed.

Ask me about Appleseed! Send a PM or see me in the Appleseed subforum.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-26-2013, 9:20 AM
Rock6.3's Avatar
Rock6.3 Rock6.3 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Shasta County California
Posts: 2,444
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

BigJ it was a pleasure meeting you and yours last weekend.

KD Rifleman does not require anything special, just a reliable centerfire rifle with adjustable sights and equipped with a quality sling.

The above having been said:
The M1 Garand is an excellent choice (as is the M1A), but the 1903 Springfield works great too.
The AR15 or AR10 platform both work great, especially with a freefloated handguard.

Reading this post seems to indicate we prefer semi auto rifles, but I think a bolt action rifle will generally be capable of more accuracy than the semi auto rifles can deliver, thus opening the discussion to many choices of bolt action platforms.

If I were to purchase just one multipurpose rifle which were capable of performing at an Appleseed KD event I would choose:

AR15 (.223) if I am recoil sensitive or of small stature.
M1 or M1A (30-06/308 Winchester) if I like wood and steel rifles.
A box fed bolt action (308 Winchester, 260 Remington) if I am willing to become proficient with smooth bolt manipulation.

Beware the man with one rifle, he probably knows how to use it.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:20 AM
BigJ's Avatar
BigJ BigJ is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,153
iTrader: 66 / 100%
Default

as_rocketman: Thanks for the details. Very nice and helpful.

Rock6.3: thank you!! The pleasure is all mine. You were a highlight for all of us, especially Bryan. He talked about the event, and meeting/talking with you in particular the whole ride home, and you were the first he spoke of when telling his dad all about our weekend.

I don't think we discussed it, but I am particularly fond of wood and steel and bolt actions even more so. I've shot many surplus bolt guns over the years, and have recently fallen head over heels in love with the Swiss K31. My concern there (and maybe you wouldn't mind commenting?) is the sling arrangement; the Swiss never taught or learned how to use a sling, and so one was on their rifles only for transport (often as they rode their bicycles). Its a side mount both front and rear, and in the rear the hardware actually ends up digging directly into my cheek, so I need to remove it all together. Any thoughts on how to adapt a K31 for Appleseed KD purposes, or is it just simply a mis fit all together?

The other thing I'm trying to weigh is my eyesight and how to work with it. I have a condition that basically results in seeing two images of one target offset and overlapping eachother. Its manageable with bigger targets since the two are easy to separate, but on those small targets its nearly impossible, and I really struggled with it this past weekend. With the right scope, I can adjust it such that the problem is minimized, resulting in much more comfortable and enjoyable shooting.

Thoughts?
__________________
"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave." - Elmer Davis
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:42 AM
Rock6.3's Avatar
Rock6.3 Rock6.3 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Shasta County California
Posts: 2,444
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

If your vision is causing difficulty with being able to see the smaller targets then you can expect that situation to continue at a KD (aka full distance) Appleseed Event. Our full distance target at 400 yards appears identical in size to the bottom row target on the 25 meter AQT.

Thus I would strongly recommend that your centerfire rifle selection criteria include the ability to accept a scope mount which is placed sufficiently forward enough to permit a full turkey neck in prone based on your body. (our shoulders are all different widths and our necks are all different lengths. A scope which cannot be mounted in the proper position is at best an irritation and can also result in scope eye)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:45 AM
BigJ's Avatar
BigJ BigJ is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,153
iTrader: 66 / 100%
Default

LOL^^ love the avatar!!

Ok roger that on the scope placement. Given my proportions and size, it sounds like maybe even a scout setup might work to my benefit. Interesting...

Thanks again Rock.
__________________
"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave." - Elmer Davis
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:53 AM
Rock6.3's Avatar
Rock6.3 Rock6.3 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Shasta County California
Posts: 2,444
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Since you did specify spare no expense:

AR Platform:
I would like one of these someday, in 28 or 30 inch, w/side charging handle: http://6mmar.com/6mmAR_Turbo.html

Note: in the AR platform I need a stock extension to keep my nose from going forward of the charging handle
Note 2: Proper scope placement on an AR will frequently require a cantilever scope mount, I choose the LaRue SPR-E http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-t...l-spr-e-lt-139

Gissele Trigger: I use http://geissele.com/super-dynamic-combat-trigger.html

For my bolt action dream rifle:
A BAT action
260 Remington or 6BRX
30" Kreiger barrel
MCS-T5A stock

For any platform:
Les Tam custom leather sling (amazing product, great guy to work with and WORTH THE WAIT) http://www.lestam.com/
1.25" QD sling swivels
Quality optics (this is not where you attempt to go cheap)
__________________

Last edited by Rock6.3; 11-26-2013 at 11:20 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-26-2013, 9:11 PM
as_rocketman's Avatar
as_rocketman as_rocketman is offline
CGSSA Leader
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pasadena
Posts: 884
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJ View Post
[...] I am particularly fond of wood and steel and bolt actions even more so. I've shot many surplus bolt guns over the years, and have recently fallen head over heels in love with the Swiss K31. [...] The other thing I'm trying to weigh is my eyesight and how to work with it.
Aha, more information.

I'm with Rock, if you want walnut & steel, bolt-action, and optics there's no way to get an "ideal" rifle for KD duty without some customization. But there are a few factory options that come pretty close.
  • First one that comes to mind is the CZ 527 in 5.56. Only thing that keeps this from being a clear winner is the 1:12" twist rate, which is optimized for light varmint bullets. It'll work with M193 and will shred an AQT, but such a perfect rifle really cries out for a 1:8" rifled barrel to send those 77 gr SMKs to medium and long range. (You could always rebarrel, I suppose.)
  • Another, cheaper option is the Mossberg MVP, also 5.56. I haven't handled these but reports I've heard are quite positive. Laminate stock, but it does have a 1:9" twist barrel in several available lengths and weights.
  • A third you might like is the Ruger GSR, heavier in .308 Win. This works best with "scout scope" mounting which some like and some don't. Anyway, while this isn't a precision rifle it will rock an AQT. Ruger did a fine job finding the sweet spot of a true jack-of-all-trades.

Having said that, if you're going to step beyond the cost and power level of 5.56, you have many more options, such as R700s and Savages and Win 70s modified to take box magazines and in whatever barrel contour you wish. Or even just a nice huntin' rifle in, say, .243. A suitable hunting piece will destroy an AQT if you run it right. I once shot an AQT (normal, but KD would be easier still) with my .270 (BAR II Safari semiauto) and apart from keeping it loaded, it was a snap.

---

No milsurps on my list. They don't take optics well. There are ways to do it, but all of them involve compromises, such as irreversible modification.

If you decide to go with irons then milsurps become quite doable. And here it comes down to which has the best sights.
  • K31s are fantastic shooters. You can run a regular M1 GI loop sling through the front side-swivel and it kinda works. Or just shoot in hasty. Or there is a "normal" swiveled barrel band replacement, I've seen pictures anyway. Ammo is a challenge. I don't like open sights personally but other than that there's not much to complain about. It's a good choice.
  • Probably the best of the milsurp bolt actions for AQTs is the M1903A3. Having MOA-click adjustable sights is huge. Even the original M1903 was designed with target shooting in mind, which is partly why they were so beloved by American troops, even though the Enfield was and is a better battle rifle.

But those two are about it. Any other bolt milsurp can work but will be more frustrating than it needs to be, usually because of sights. For instance, I prefer the M1917 to the M1903, and I've shot mine on KD AQTs, but getting the sights right is an ordeal. I had no trouble with the time limits or the group size, but my groups weren't centered on the target... so while it's a great rifle, it is not ideal for AQTs.

If you were willing to modify a milsurp with better irons, adding a click-adjustable rear peep, then a whole lot of others become viable. The M1917, for one, but also things like the MAS-36 or the Enfield Mk III.

One of our instructors has a new .30-40 Krag that he's itching to shoot on KD AQT's. Ideal? No. But with correct hold-overs, it will get the job done.

This is one thing that attracted me to Appleseed in the first place -- the "exam" really is a practical shooting exercise, and by that I mean you can do it well with a wide variety of equipment. It isn't like most match shooting where you're inevitably funneled into one choice or another. What matters the most is how a rifle works with you.

---

Which is why my "best" remains the AR-15 linked above. I'm in your camp, I too like walnut and steel. That AR-15 is the only rifle I own that isn't black and tan, and it's not my favorite (that would be the Garand, followed by the M1 Carbine). However, it is the rifle I am most effective with, and that commands respect for its design even if it's ugly and makes awful noises. It is the one rifle I would grab in an unknown situation, either to defend my family or my community. In that sense it is very much the 21st century embodiment of the militiaman's musket, and why it will forever have the seat of honor in my safe.
__________________
Riflemen Needed.

Ask me about Appleseed! Send a PM or see me in the Appleseed subforum.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-27-2013, 11:07 AM
BigJ's Avatar
BigJ BigJ is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,153
iTrader: 66 / 100%
Default

Great post rocketman, thank you very much for taking the time.

I have had an AR or two over the years; I'd shoot them VERY well, but then they'd sit in the safe and collect dust. There's just something...missing... so when you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by as_rocketman View Post
... and that commands respect for its design even if it's ugly and makes awful noises. It is the one rifle I would grab in an unknown situation, either to defend my family or my community. In that sense it is very much the 21st century embodiment of the militiaman's musket, and why it will forever have the seat of honor in my safe.
You really hit a nerve. I've never looked at an AR that way, and instead I've always looked at them through the same eyes I see my milsurps and black powders with. That's a mistake, and the point you make brings home why.

Thank you again. You (both) have really helped!
__________________
"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave." - Elmer Davis
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-28-2013, 7:37 AM
Eljay Eljay is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,907
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

I tend to enjoy the hardware in reverse order of practicality. Love, love, love my Brown Bess.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-28-2013, 8:36 AM
56huck 56huck is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 107
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

My favorite is my M21 (super match M1a with adjustable comb stock). It's heavy (about 19 lbs w/scope), but I think that's a good thing as it reduces movement. I scored a 225 KD (acoring 96 of 100 on stage 4 - 400 yds) with procedural mistakes affecting 2-stages
My next favorite is my AR with a White Oak upper (20" heavy barrel) - again, a "heavy" rifle
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-28-2013, 5:57 PM
scoutcamper scoutcamper is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 219
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

BigJ-It was nice to meet you at the appleseed. As for a KD rifle i plan to shoot KD with my newly build AR15 in .223, and long term i hope to get a M1 Garand and shoot KD with that. For ideal rifle i think the M1 is ideal for skill test, but an AR15 would be way easier to shoot KD with.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 3:20 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.