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  #1  
Old 02-03-2008, 12:16 AM
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Default U.S. Dept of Energy Swat Team?

WTF?

I saw this and had to ask.




http://www.webarms.com/Gun%20Supplie...d%20Armory.htm

" Purchased from Web Arms by the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory,
U.S. Dept of Energy Swat Team."




Does every ABC entity have a Swat team?

Last edited by Peashooter; 02-03-2008 at 12:44 AM..
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  #2  
Old 02-03-2008, 12:20 AM
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Pretty hardcore for knocking out people not paying their energy bills.
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  #3  
Old 02-03-2008, 12:21 AM
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The DOE is in charge of transporting Nukes over American soil, so I understand them requiring an SRT team. I've met a few of these guys, and they're no joke.
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Old 02-03-2008, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spsellars View Post
The DOE is in charge of transporting Nukes over American soil, so I understand them requiring an SRT team. I've met a few of these guys, and they're no joke.
I've heard the exact same. I had a Professor who was in the military stationed in a Nevada base which held nukes. He said the DoE guys would come in WAY heavily armed and meant business in regards to transporting the goods
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  #5  
Old 02-03-2008, 12:24 AM
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Thanks for the clarification.
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  #6  
Old 02-03-2008, 12:24 AM
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Seems like, doesn't it? Actually the DOE teams are quite high speed-low drag. Note: they are not the same as the civilian contractor guards like Wackenhut. Would they use Springfield M1A's? Not sure, though I'd think they might have access to real M14's.
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  #7  
Old 02-03-2008, 12:28 AM
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Ive been inside Lawrence Livermore - They take their security SERIOUSLY.
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  #8  
Old 02-03-2008, 12:29 AM
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Never thought about the nuclear side of things...

To think that I would have to pretty much sell my soul to the government to touch a full-auto firearm... unless I move out of KA, of course.
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  #9  
Old 02-03-2008, 12:42 AM
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I worked at LLNL for a short stint and grew up a stone's throw from there.

There are some very good reasons for them to have a SWAT team there. You can look this stuff up anywhere, but a couple things there are tritium refining, foreign intelligence analysis, weapons design, terror response, etc. etc.
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  #10  
Old 02-03-2008, 1:01 AM
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Originally Posted by uclaplinker View Post
I worked at LLNL for a short stint and grew up a stone's throw from there.

There are some very good reasons for them to have a SWAT team there. You can look this stuff up anywhere, but a couple things there are tritium refining, foreign intelligence analysis, weapons design, terror response, etc. etc.
Where at? I grew up in Tracy.

My parents company supplied a lot of steel when they were expanding couple years ago and I got some neat tours out of it. Got to go in the super laser thingy (I believe thats the technical term for it?). That thing is nuts.
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  #11  
Old 02-03-2008, 1:15 AM
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Originally Posted by PolishMike View Post
My parents company supplied a lot of steel when they were expanding couple years ago and I got some neat tours out of it. Got to go in the super laser thingy (I believe thats the technical term for it?). That thing is nuts.
National Ignition Facility... "super laser thingy" was probably too hard to get funding for so they gave it a more obscure name.
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  #12  
Old 02-03-2008, 1:20 AM
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I meant literally a stone's throw. In Livermore.

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Originally Posted by PolishMike View Post
Where at? I grew up in Tracy.

My parents company supplied a lot of steel when they were expanding couple years ago and I got some neat tours out of it. Got to go in the super laser thingy (I believe thats the technical term for it?). That thing is nuts.
I did a bunch of tours there growing up, too. It's an impressive place with a strong legacy. Less now. It's lost a lot of its impact. With the exception of the NIF and a few other small things, LLNL is struggling to find its place in the world of science. Really sad, IMHO.

They really need some friggin sharks to put those friggin lasers on.
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  #13  
Old 02-03-2008, 1:24 AM
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Originally Posted by uclaplinker View Post
I meant literally a stone's throw. In Livermore.



I did a bunch of tours there growing up, too. It's an impressive place with a strong legacy. Less now. It's lost a lot of its impact. With the exception of the NIF and a few other small things, LLNL is struggling to find its place in the world of science. Really sad, IMHO.

They really need some friggin sharks to put those friggin lasers on.
My parents plant is off vasco a little before LLNL.

I dont really follow physics so much anymore so I dont know much about the labs but thats sad to hear.
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  #14  
Old 02-03-2008, 5:14 AM
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When the nuke trackers are in town, they usually stow their weaponry in my vault. Impressive array, to say the least.
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  #15  
Old 02-03-2008, 5:42 AM
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yes, DoE is pretty hardcore. Let me clue you in on something really neat too. Every employee of DoE is a Federal Peace Officer! You may think that is funny til you have to teach secretarys and janitors proper firearms handling! I read somewhere the reasoning behind it, but cant remember and dont want to misquote it. Also, DoE has to deal with nukes, thats why they have NEST. Lots of folks dont realize how many different police agencies there are in the USA, from township to federal level.
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  #16  
Old 02-03-2008, 8:08 AM
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They also buy from Dillon Aero


Big guns coming to Lawrence Lab
Modern day Gatling guns could thwart land, air terrorist attack
Keay Davidson, Chronicle Science Writer

Friday, February 3, 2006

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory plans to install high-powered machine guns over the next few months capable of hitting land vehicles or aircraft almost a mile away in the event of a terrorist attack.

Known as Gatling guns because they are multi-barreled, like their 19th-century ancestors, they simultaneously fire 7.6-millimeter bullets from six barrels at up to 4,000 rounds per minute, powerful enough to take down an enemy aircraft or helicopter, officials said.

The guns will give the nuclear weapons lab greater ability to guard its huge cache of radioactive plutonium, said Linton Brooks, head of the U.S. National Nuclear Security Administration, a quasi-independent agency that oversees the nation's nuclear weapons complex for the U.S. Department of Energy. The agency ordered the weapons.

"A lot of people are willing to die if they can kill lots of Americans ... You want to make clear that when they come here to die (by attacking the lab), they die for a failure," the blunt-speaking Brooks said at a press conference at Livermore on Thursday, where he unveiled one of the guns.

He said the guns will be operational later this year after the lab's security guards are trained and the weapons and related equipment are purchased. Brooks insisted the Gatling gun purchase is unrelated to a recent announcement that the lab might double its supply of plutonium.

Lab officials said that "multiple" Gatling guns will be installed at the lab, some mounted on vehicles and others placed at undisclosed fixed locations, but for security reasons declined to say exactly how many or when.

Manufactured by Dillon Aero of Scottsdale, Ariz., the guns cost between $50,000 and $75,000, depending on accessories, and can unleash a barrage of bullets up to 1,500 meters or nearly a mile away.


Each gun gives Lawrence Livermore firepower equivalent to a dozen guards armed with the high-powered rifles they currently carry, said Robert Claire, the lab's "armorer" -- the official in charge of its anti-terrorist weaponry.

Officials said, however, there are no plans to reduce the lab's security force, employed by Lawrence Livermore and the University of California, which runs the lab under contract with the Energy Department.

Lab spokesperson David Schwoegler said the plan to equip the lab with the high-tech guns has been "closely coordinated with all local and federal law enforcement agencies." Officials for the city of Livermore could not be reached late Thursday.

But a lab critic called the plan a threat to innocent men, women and children, particularly with the facility located across the street from suburban homes. A better solution would be to investigate ways to remove the plutonium and other weapons-grade nuclear materials from the lab altogether, said Marylia Kelley, head of Tri Valley Cares, a Livermore anti-nuclear group.

"There are residential homes all up and down what is the western perimeter of Livermore lab," Kelley said. "You always see children on their bicycles or skateboards ... people walking their dogs ... You can't just indiscriminately open fire."

Until now, the most lethal weapons known to be used by the lab's notoriously no-nonsense security guards are the big, black high-powered rifles they display prominently at its several security gates. Schwoegler said the security guards, which he numbered at a couple of hundred, will be thoroughly trained in the use of the new weapons.

The Gatling gun was introduced during the Civil War but saw limited action. It played a more prominent wartime role a few years later, giving U.S. troops enormous advantages in firepower in their fight against western Indians. The hand-cranked weapon, named for its inventor, Richard Jordan Gatling, fired 100 rounds per minute.

Gatling hoped the gun could "enable one man to do as much battle duty as a hundred" and thereby would "supersede the necessity of large armies," according to an online site operated by American Heritage.

Livermore lab is one of the nation's two nuclear weapons design labs, where, among other things, scientists study plutonium, a key ingredient in nuclear weapons. To carry out this task, the lab stores plutonium for research at a site called Building 332.

Conceivably, terrorists might wish to attack the lab either to steal plutonium, which they could then convert into their own bombs, or to blow up the plutonium storage facility in order to spread radioactive material over a widely inhabited area.

Brooks acknowledged that "if somebody wants to drive an aircraft into a building, you can't prevent that." But in the event of a "military-style" terrorist attack either from a ground vehicle or an aircraft, Livermore needs to have this kind of super-armament "to leave no doubt about the outcome," he said.

"You don't want half of (the terrorists) killed and half of your (Livermore) guys killed, then say, 'We won.' "

Rather, he said, lab officials want to ensure that in such a violent encounter, lab security guards can quell the invasion immediately without any Livermore staff losses.

In November, the Energy Department authorized the lab to increase its amount of stored plutonium to an amount exceeding 3,000 pounds -- enough for as many as about 300 nuclear bombs.

The authorization came three months after an advisory panel to the department urged the lab to ship almost all of its nuclear bomb materials -- estimated to be as much as 1,540 pounds worth -- to a remote, safer site because of the growing suburbanization of the Livermore area to prevent a potential terrorist attack.

On Thursday, Brooks said he hadn't decided whether to increase the amount of plutonium stored at the lab. He defended the lab's continuing research on plutonium as essential to ensure that U.S. weapons scientists understand better what he characterized as the "nasty, ugly, complicated stuff with a metallurgy I don't pretend to understand."

Over the years, federal officials have repeatedly worried about security standards at Lawrence Livermore and other labs in the United States' nuclear weapons complex. In February 2004, an intruder managed to drive a truck inside the Livermore site security perimeter. During the incident guards failed to activate recently installed "pop-up barriers," according to a report six months later by the Energy Department's inspector general.

Last edited by Fjold; 02-03-2008 at 8:11 AM..
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  #17  
Old 02-03-2008, 8:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormfeather

yes, DoE is pretty hardcore. Let me clue you in on something really neat too. Every employee of DoE is a Federal Peace Officer! You may think that is funny til you have to teach secretarys and janitors proper firearms handling! I read somewhere the reasoning behind it, but cant remember and dont want to misquote it. Also, DoE has to deal with nukes, thats why they have NEST. Lots of folks dont realize how many different police agencies there are in the USA, from township to federal level.
Not true!

Not only not true, but complete BS. For instance, LLNL only has a few people on site that are even sworn peace officers. The Protective Services Officers are employees of Lawrence Livermore National Security LLC, not the DOE.
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  #18  
Old 02-03-2008, 8:48 AM
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My buddy was a SRT team member out at Savannah River. The guys there are no joke. Many guys working for DOE police are prior LE and .mil SF. I'm glad they have all the firepower they have because the last thing I want is for Habib to get his hands on some of that nuclear material.
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Old 02-03-2008, 8:53 AM
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DoE Security is all over the Rad Lab in Livermore.
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Old 02-03-2008, 9:14 AM
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Those of you in Sacramento area will know this area...

There is a decommissioned nuclear power plant, Rancho Seco in the Sacramento area. It's been offline for quite a while now, but is still guarded.
Buddy of mine, a former Marine, works there on a security detail with one of the private military contractors. About every 6 months, without much predictability, a Seal team tests their security measures as a training exercise.
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Old 02-03-2008, 9:26 AM
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They also buy from Dillon Aero
Yep, Livermore deployed the Dillon Aero gatling guns, stationary and vehicle mounted.

http://dillonaero.com/
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Old 02-03-2008, 9:35 AM
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Not true!

Not only not true, but complete BS. For instance, LLNL only has a few people on site that are even sworn peace officers. The Protective Services Officers are employees of Lawrence Livermore National Security LLC, not the DOE.
Not entirely true, either. The LLC is a recent change in the administration of LLNL bureaucracy.

There is a big difference between the guys checking badges at the gates and what the lab has for real security. I've personally witnessed two incidents that involved people far above what you would consider protective services or common police officers at LLNL.
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Old 02-03-2008, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Big guns coming to Lawrence Lab
Modern day Gatling guns could thwart land, air terrorist attack
Keay Davidson, Chronicle Science Writer

Friday, February 3, 2006

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory plans to install high-powered machine guns over the next few months capable of hitting land vehicles or aircraft almost a mile away in the event of a terrorist attack.

Known as Gatling guns because they are multi-barreled, like their 19th-century ancestors, they simultaneously fire 7.6-millimeter bullets from six barrels at up to 4,000 rounds per minute, powerful enough to take down an enemy aircraft or helicopter, officials said.


Sounds Keay did his research.
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Old 02-03-2008, 3:03 PM
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Not entirely true, either. The LLC is a recent change in the administration of LLNL bureaucracy.

There is a big difference between the guys checking badges at the gates and what the lab has for real security. I've personally witnessed two incidents that involved people far above what you would consider protective services or common police officers at LLNL.
This is true. For those who have not worked at one of the national labs involved in stockpile stewardship, this stuff might sound confusing. The LLC is a for profit company formed by University of California, Bechtel national and several other companies to run the DOE contract at LLNL. Formerly this contract was run solely by UC. The LLC hires the guards at the front gates and the west gate either as employees of the contract or as subcontractors. Wackenhut is one such subcontractor at other facilities, including sites in Nevada.
The DOE Swat team mentioned in the ad for the M1A's are DOE people. They are not contractors and are actually DOE. There's a small group of people who transport sensitive nuclear technology between the various sites involved in NNSA operations and this DOE Swat team would be part of it. I've never known any of these people, and don't really want to, just as I've avoided going inside super block at the lab. Some things involving our national nuclear program are secret and should remain that way. However, I would never want to try to break into one of these high security facilities because the guys defending these areas are really serious, not like those Wackenhut dopes who are better at administrative bureaucracy than actual security.
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Old 02-03-2008, 3:35 PM
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DOE and LLNL employees are completely different. It is possible to have both types of employees present at the same facility. I do not know the security arrangements at LLNL and have never worked there, but I'd imagine that LLNL would have contract/private security out on the perimeter of the entire facility with the DOE folks securing the really sensitive stuff. I highly doubt that everything at LLNL is high security, so screening folks into the facility perimeter would be absolutely appropriate for regular security to do.

The Federal BoP's employees are also all LEO. They may not be assigned to do primarily LEO work...
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Old 02-03-2008, 4:02 PM
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short story about LLNL...

back in the early 90s, i worked for a school at cal state hayward. and we were to video tape a presentation at one of the outer buildings at LLNL.

after the presentation, my boss walked around the place with a video cam to get some B roll. i followed the group video taping their tour.

anyways, end of the day, i met my boss. he wasnt too happy. in fact, he just wanted to get out of there.

i think the "security" dealt with a guy walking around their place with a video camera...
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  #27  
Old 02-03-2008, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Shane916 View Post
I've heard the exact same. I had a Professor who was in the military stationed in a Nevada base which held nukes. He said the DoE guys would come in WAY heavily armed and meant business in regards to transporting the goods
Prof. Bunyan?
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Old 02-04-2008, 5:54 AM
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Quote:
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Ive been inside Lawrence Livermore - They take their security SERIOUSLY.
ya think?



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Old 02-04-2008, 6:18 AM
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I knew a lady that was DOE security up at the Hanford Nuclear Reservation in Wa.. Seemed to be pretty highly trained. Definitely gave off more of the "shooter" vibe than a regular street cop.
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Old 02-04-2008, 6:21 AM
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Transportation Safeguards Division of the DOE.

DOE Idaho is regularly at the top of the list in the National SWAT Olympics.

LLL has an on-site team.
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Old 02-04-2008, 6:59 AM
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Originally Posted by CSDGuy View Post
DOE and LLNL employees are completely different. It is possible to have both types of employees present at the same facility. I do not know the security arrangements at LLNL and have never worked there, but I'd imagine that LLNL would have contract/private security out on the perimeter of the entire facility with the DOE folks securing the really sensitive stuff. I highly doubt that everything at LLNL is high security, so screening folks into the facility perimeter would be absolutely appropriate for regular security to do.

The Federal BoP's employees are also all LEO. They may not be assigned to do primarily LEO work...
The only guards at LLNL are contract security, including their supervisors. There are DOE security representitives at the Lab which monitor security procedures but they are mainly desk jockeys. Every protective services officer is armed with a Glock and an M4 carbine, whether at the front gate or in the superblock. There are also response teams with other firepower, such as the Dillon Aeros mentioned above.
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  #32  
Old 02-04-2008, 7:23 AM
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Originally Posted by uclaplinker View Post
Not entirely true, either. The LLC is a recent change in the administration of LLNL bureaucracy.
Yes, but the security personnel are exactly the same. Their employer just changed from the University of California to the LLC.

Quote:
There is a big difference between the guys checking badges at the gates and what the lab has for real security.
Not really. The main difference is that a lot of the guards at the gates are awaiting their final security clearances and/or the specialized training for duty in high security areas. Even reponse team members rotate to duty at the gates at times.

Quote:
I've personally witnessed two incidents that involved people far above what you would consider protective services or common police officers at LLNL.
Those were probably DOE Security escorts who are on site when escorting some classified shipments. They have absolutely no sense of humor concerning physical security of their shipments.
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Old 02-04-2008, 9:00 AM
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Prof. Bunyan?
Holy crap you had him too?!?!
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Old 02-04-2008, 9:08 AM
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anyone know of any DOE sites within an hour or 3 of phoenix?
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Old 02-04-2008, 9:38 AM
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Not true!

Not only not true, but complete BS. For instance, LLNL only has a few people on site that are even sworn peace officers. The Protective Services Officers are employees of Lawrence Livermore National Security LLC, not the DOE.
I wasnt talking about LLNL, I was talking about DOE, re-read then make your assumptions please.
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Old 02-04-2008, 9:44 AM
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anyone know of any DOE sites within an hour or 3 of phoenix?
Wintersburg has DoE presence, but to the best of my knowledge security at Palo Verde is Wackenhut and National Guard.

No research facilities in AZ as far as I know.

Transport may go through AZ from CA and NV to Pantex, but if they had actual stop locations there it wouldn't be public information.
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Old 02-04-2008, 6:50 PM
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I wasnt talking about LLNL, I was talking about DOE, re-read then make your assumptions please.
I still stand by my statement that DOE employees are not Federal peace officers. I would say that less than 1% of DOE employees are peace officers. To say that 100% are is absurd.

I have been working with AEC/ERDA/DOE employees for over 30 years, including being a member of NEST. I've run into very few that were peace officers. As a matter of fact, I was talking with a DOE employee today. He was amused to think that anyone could think he or his colleagues were peace officers.
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Old 02-05-2008, 12:52 PM
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ok, I guess the folks who I certify every month must be somebody else. I have approx 12 students a month being cert'ed from DOE, and all of them are A/A's, Inspectors, even HR. OK, let me re-phrase, they are pc-832'ed and weapons qual'ed. Not necessarily peace officers, but they do have powers of arrest under their agency. They usually arent gun-totin' handcuff sportin leo types. They simply carry a gun and badge.
NEST huh? Ive done some cross training with nest when I was with UN OIOS.
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I am naked except for seatless white chaps, a boonie hat and a tactical vest playing HALO.
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I don't like getting my butt kicked, but I would like to have it spanked by some big hairy guys!
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I wouldn't put "mounting a weasel" past too many people on this forum.
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Last edited by Stormfeather; 02-05-2008 at 1:06 PM..
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Old 02-05-2008, 1:16 PM
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I applied for a position with them a long time ago...."not enough experience with current issued small arms"..or something to that effect. I havent read all the post but I applied via snail mail to the NRC. List of weapons included M16, M60, LAWS, and M1911..(shows my age doesnt it...LOL)

I'm sure they have a website by now.
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Old 02-05-2008, 1:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Stormfeather View Post
I have approx 12 students a month being cert'ed from DOE, and all of them are A/A's, Inspectors, even HR. OK, let me re-phrase, they are pc-832'ed and weapons qual'ed. Not necessarily peace officers, but they do have powers of arrest under their agency.
Come to think of it, I remember reading a few years ago about how DOE has been...I don't remember the correct term..."deputizing"...more and more employees over recent years. Mostly, it was inspectors, IIRC. Somehow, the DOE's thinking is that somehow this gives the inspectors more clout when doing their jobs. I think I was reading an op-ed piece, and the writer was arguing that inspectors were doing just fine without being "deputized" or somehow converted to some sort of LE status, plus you're burdening the inspectors with requiring additional training and qualifications that have little to do with their primary duties.
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