The new and confusing world of modern sporting rifles

[Glock Girl in CA]

It's too much work. I give up.

[movie zombie]

LOL, I hear you!
reading this thread was difficult.....but I must say that the S&W M&P 15 has potential for the lazy such as myself.

[bob7122]

Originally Posted by Glock Girl in CA

It's too much work. I give up.

Originally Posted by movie zombie

LOL, I hear you!
reading this thread was difficult.....but I must say that the S&W M&P 15 has potential for the lazy such as myself.

my friend got this and he was happy.

[ritter]

M&P 15 sport is the route I went as well. I wanted to pick up an AR before we have to register at the end of the year in CA, didn't know much about them, wanted a solid warranty and a gun that would go bang without me having to fck about with it. Happy with the choice. I may someday build another, but not for a good long while.

[HighLander51]

Originally Posted by Glock Girl in CA

It's too much work. I give up.

I'll make it easy, get a JP custom flat top, then you can put any optic, scope or iron sights on it you want. It will never be worth less that what you pay for it either.

[Spyguy]

Originally Posted by 1859sharps

I would buy an M&P before a windham, but not before a colt.

but if you mean for your self. If you can't get your hands on a California legal colt, go SW M&P 15. forget about the Windham.

I would absolutely buy a Windham before buying an M&P. Windham is essentially the company that used to build Bushmaster AR's before the Bushmaster name was bought by Cerberus Capital Management (a private capital firm) and merged with Remington as part of their "Freedom Group" (and which Cerberus has been actively trying to sell-off since the Newtown incident).

Here are excerpts from an article in American Rifleman in March 2012:

Ever heard of Windham Weaponry? You have, but you just don't know it yet. Although this is technically a new company, it brings years of AR rifle manufacturing experience to the table. Back in 1973, Richard Dyke founded Bushmaster Firearms International, a company that would grow to become one of the top providers of quality, AR-style firearms. In 2006, Cerberus Capital Management purchased Bushmaster, adding it to its portfolio of other well-known gun companies, like Marlin and Remington, as part of the Freedom Group. The production of Bushmaster rifles continued in the original Windham, Maine, location until March of 2011 when the operation was relocated to Ilion, N.Y.

The move resulted in the facility's closure and the seasoned work crew losing their jobs. This would have been the end of the story if Richard Dyke hadn’t stepped up to the plate to change the situation. With his five-year non-compete clause expiring and new financial backers on board, Mr. Dyke organized the reopening of the Maine facility and brought back as many of the original employees as he could. Under the banner of Windham Weaponry, this re-energized company is providing a selection of ARs to rival the biggest names in the industry.

...

Now to the important question: Is the Windham rifle just a Bushmaster clone? The answer is: Not exactly. The rifle's Bushmaster heritage is plainly represented. But with a chance to start over again, and knowing the market is currently overflowing with a variety of AR platforms, Windham is working to make its guns stand out by using its own specifications at key points while keeping the guns affordable.

The SRC's fit and finish is excellent. The aluminum and steel treatments provide a dark, rich, even finish that stands out from other guns. The entire rifle was closely examined and found to be free of the dings, tool marks and corner-cutting that tend to show up on cheap imports and less-carefully manufactured rifles. All of the controls are smooth and tightly fitted. Windham uses an additional manufacturing process to ensure the trigger is as crisp and smooth as possible.

[Tail11]

I feel your pain glock girl. I have been looking at AR's for a short time, but reading up as much as I could on them I decided on the Sig Sauer M400 enhanced and I get to pick it up next week.

Go to a store and get your hands on them. Find the one that feels the best and go from there.

[stilly]

Originally Posted by Tail11

I feel your pain glock girl. I have been looking at AR's for a short time, but reading up as much as I could on them I decided on the Sig Sauer M400 enhanced and I get to pick it up next week.

Go to a store and get your hands on them. Find the one that feels the best and go from there.

This really should not be difficult. Just follow that advice PERIOD.

These things AINT like a MAC computer ya know, spend $2k and if it breaks then it costs you $1200 to fix and you have to take it to a store where they have an idiot's bar and self proclaimed "geniuses" walking around to tell you what you already know.

It is a simple process. What you need is for someone to push you off the edge so you just get one already.

I always say buy a lower and parts kit and then shop for the upper and the stock setup and enjoy what you build. That is VERY simple. ANYONE can follow the OLL build docs here at CG. It is very simple to do. OR, just go and see what they have at your local store and pick one out. They are copied a million times over much like the AKs and they are almost foolproof until you start REALLY doing things to them like cutting on them and what not. But all in all, I would say that MOST of the lowers are very similar, the ONLY difference is the upper receiver and that all is decided on what you want to do with it. Plinker? Go light, Varmint Hunter? Go heavy...

nuff said. I hope you revisit your choices again and go for it.

[Ladyrr]

Was in the same boat. I ended up finding a base rifle, palmetto state armory form one of the guys here on cal guns. They are available for a decent price under 1000.00 I even got a red dot with it. Off brand but works for now.

Had my instructor look at it and there are only a few minor changes needed for me to run 3 gun. Trigger, ambi safety since I have to shoot long guns left. Change out the buffer weights and spring and then I am GTG until I start competing then will upgrade as needed. I put on the LANAC dragon break, only because I wanted one. No other reason.

If I was not gearing up for 3 gun, the rifle would have been perfect for a weekend shooter.

[HighLander51]

Originally Posted by Ladyrr

If I was not gearing up for 3 gun, the rifle would have been perfect for a weekend shooter.

You will be entering a whole new world when you shoot your first 3 gun match. I hope you have at least a two dozen USPSA matches under your belt first.

Here is some info

http://www.womensoutdoornews.com/201...tting-started/

[1859sharps]

Originally Posted by Spyguy

I would absolutely buy a Windham before buying an M&P. Windham is essentially the company that used to build Bushmaster AR's

Therein lies the reason I would not buy one, I know exactly who Windham is. I have Bushmasters.

There was a day they were a VERY good 2nd choice after Colt. But their quality slipped bad and this was before they were sold.

[1859sharps]

Originally Posted by Glock Girl in CA

It's too much work. I give up.

ok..here is the simplest possible advice.

1. forget about the piston ARs, in most cases very over rated.
2. how much money do you have to spend?

based on #2 look for rifles in this order...

California legal colt 6920 variant
Bravo company
Noveske or Daniel Defense
Smith and Wesson

you honestly shouldn't have to spend more than 1000 to 1500 for the basic rifle "m4" type rifle.

Keep it simple. start out with just the rifle, put a nice red dot scope on it, shoot a lot and see what you think. then worry (or not) about modifying it.

[RNE228]

Have been in similar discussion on another, tractor related site. Guy wanted to know what rifle/caliber to get his girlfriend.

I have been shooting for 43 years. Shot lots of rifle/pistol/shotgun. Had a couple I sold; looked good, but didn't fit me and I could not hit side of barn with it.

to the OP, go to you local gun shops and shoulder some weapons. Do not limit yourself to AR's; at least try some of the others. See what feels comfortable to you. If it is not comfortable, it will not be enjoyable to shoot.

Check out your local ranges. Some rent rifles. Try them. Ask the people out on the line. Most will take a moment to explain what they have. Many will let you fire a round or two. I have tried a number of various rifles/pistols after discussing them with the owners. I have let people shoot a round or two from mine too.

Look for local instructors. Some do women's classes/range days, and will have a variety of weapons to try.

Two of my wife's favorites were shooting a Desert Eagle, and she really likes shooting Hawken 50 cal black powder! She has her own, and is a crack-shot with it.

[movie zombie]

RNE, welcome!
the OP is not a first time gun buyer and already knows her way around guns......she just wants a rifle that doesn't look like Dad's and was looking for info on AR's.
probably leaves that Hawken out?! LOL!

very glad to read that you agree with what we tell people when they think they can buy a gun for someone else!

[Spyguy]

Originally Posted by 1859sharps

based on #2 look for rifles in this order...

California legal colt 6920 variant
Bravo company
Noveske or Daniel Defense
Smith and Wesson

What?! No love for LMT?

Ask yourself: how many companies in your list hold military contacts for complete rifles?

[1859sharps]

Originally Posted by Spyguy

What?! No love for LMT?

DOH!... brain fart. LMT is also a good choice.

Originally Posted by Spyguy

Ask yourself: how many companies in your list hold military contacts for complete rifles?

I believe that only Colt and FN have every had contracts for complete, brand new manufacture of rifles and actually delivered on the contract. However, LMT has also had contracts. But I believe it was just to take current inventory and convert them to M4 style rifles. But even that puts them ahead of other companies.

[jmpgnr24k]

Target , home defense, and fun? AR pistol with 7.5 barrel
They are fun, can shoot cheap ammo thru them, great house gun because of size and caliber, DI system works just fine as long as you have quality parts. But I will say building your own AK is an awesome, and gratifyin experience. And is also a great rifle to have.

[HighLander51]

Originally Posted by Spyguy

What?! No love for LMT?

Ask yourself: how many companies in your list hold military contacts for complete rifles?

Actually, DPMS is the current supplier.

[Paper Boy]

Originally Posted by HighLander51

Actually, DPMS is the current supplier.

Actually I belive its Fabrique Nationale, as of this year at least. A few years back I was seeing crates of brand spanking new FN's in Kabul.

[randomBytes]

OP if you are buying a basic AR, I don't think it really matters what you get so long as the upper/lower are mil-spec, you should be able to accessorize as you like.

[ifilef]

The inquiry deserves a short answer:

For a relatively inexpensive, quality, first AR for you, lifetime warranty, American, etc.:

S&W M&P 15 (free state) or S&W M&P 15 Sport (CA).
'Nice for the price' and you can't go wrong by getting one.

Unlike others, I do not recommend going to a 'build' or 'build party'. Would that really interest you?

Just get a fully assembled AR-15 and have fun!

[Glock Girl in CA]

I don't see myself at a build party. I kind of hope to keep it simple, which makes that Smith & Wesson appealing... This has been a great thread for mode still, though. I hope others are benefitting from it as well! If anyone else gets an AR after this, please update the thread!

[Spyguy]

Originally Posted by Spyguy

Ask yourself: how many companies in your list hold military contacts for complete rifles?

I want to apologize to 1859sharps. I posted that quickly from my phone in the wee hours of the night. Reading it now, I realize that it sounded very snarky. Sorry.

[Spyguy]

Originally Posted by Glock Girl in CA

I kind of hope to keep it simple, which makes that Smith & Wesson appealing.

Simple is good to get started with the AR platform. After you become experienced with one, then you can decide if you want to venture further into building one from parts or even an 80%. Or not.

The M&P is certainly simple. But so are many other off-the-shelf complete AR15 rifles. Since you live in a free state, you don't have to worry about the looming long-gun registration on 01/01/2014, so you have time to look, read, touch, try, and choose. On the other hand, you never know when another "Sandy Hook type event" may occur.

[1859sharps]

Originally Posted by HighLander51

Actually, DPMS is the current supplier.

documentation?

It is my understanding that DPMS has always overplayed their involvement in supplying the military with parts. I am not aware of any complete rifle contracts ever.

[1859sharps]

Originally Posted by Spyguy

I want to apologize to 1859sharps. I posted that quickly from my phone in the wee hours of the night. Reading it now, I realize that it sounded very snarky. Sorry.

no worries, wasn't offended. and actually LMT should have been on my list.

as for actually delivering on a US military contract. Bushmaster proves that just because you can build to this minimum level of quality, doesn't mean you will for your commercial sales.

It is also entirely possible to built better than what the US Military will demand. A few AR companies in theory do this. but most can't even meet what they US military would accept as minimum.

With the exception of barrel length and fire control parts, it is my understanding the civilian legal 6920 is built with the same process and parts that goes into the actual M4s going to the US military.

Given that, and given even with the extra slight cost of making it into a California legal rifle, the full Colt MSRP for a 6920 is only a few dollars more than comparable BM....why would you buy a BM? particularly since their quality has slipped a whole lot these last 10 or so years. They don't even build to the equal of their pre 2000 level. I know, I have pre 2000 and post 2000 samples of what they can build.

here are some MSRP prices comparison based using the 6920 or very close to it copy.

Colt 6920 starts at $1155 (California legal $1185)
Bravo Company $1140.00 (California legal $1172) (note, Bravo doesn't list MSRP, this is based on Grant's pricing)
LMT $1,371.21
BM $1140.00 (no known CA legal option)
S&W $839 (I didn't check to see if they had a factor CA legal option)

both DPMS and Stage were under $1000 for their "m4" offering. Personally, I would still skip them.

based on the reputation of S&W as a company, if prices is an issue, I would take a chance of their rifles.

quality costs, but simply being the most expensive doesn't ensure quality. Being the cheapest doesn't automatically mean lack of quality, but certainly raises some questions and red flags.

My two cents is buy the best you can afford, and if it actually means saving a little longer to get what you want and know to be quality...do that. Don't buy on impulse or out of lack of patience settle. people who say they can't afford a Colt or a Bravo or LMT for example, what they are really saying is I am not patient enough to finish saving for what I know to be a better quality rifle, I want one now, so I settled. which honestly for these people it is probably ok. This type also seems to think 200 rounds in a range trip is a lot of "heavy" use. and if this is heavy use for them...then just about any AR manufacture will meet their needs. But if 200 is just getting started for the day for you and you do this regularly...you WILL start to notices the differences in quality of the different AR manufactures.

Again, my two cents, buy the best you can. And doing so doesn't have to break the bank as you can see.

[movie zombie]

Originally Posted by 1859sharps

..........My two cents is buy the best you can afford, and if it actually means saving a little longer to get what you want and know to be quality...do that. Don't buy on impulse or out of lack of patience settle. people who say they can't afford a Colt or a Bravo or LMT for example, what they are really saying is I am not patient enough to finish saving for what I know to be a better quality rifle, I want one now, so I settled. which honestly for these people it is probably ok. This type also seems to think 200 rounds in a range trip is a lot of "heavy" use. and if this is heavy use for them...then just about any AR manufacture will meet their needs. But if 200 is just getting started for the day for you and you do this regularly...you WILL start to notices the differences in quality of the different AR manufactures. Again, my two cents, buy the best you can. And doing so doesn't have to break the bank as you can see.

this makes a lot of sense.

[HighLander51]

No matter what AR you get, you will still need a good optic (~ $1,000) and a good aftermarket trigger (~ $250 plus). That's why fully built customs are a better value. Your other option is to buy a complete lower, then shop around for whatever upper you like.

[stilly]

Originally Posted by HighLander51

No matter what AR you get, you will still need a good optic (~ $1,000) and a good aftermarket trigger (~ $250 plus). That's why fully built customs are a better value. Your other option is to buy a complete lower, then shop around for whatever upper you like.

You sure about that? Decent Iron sights for plinking are only a hundred or so.

For optics I can see what you mean by around $1k or so but I found at Turner's they have a magnifier for around $130 and a metal framed optic on sale for around $50 but the entire setup (both seperate pieces) will run about $190 or less on sale or find them on the web.

I held them, I looked through them, they are name brand and SEEM to be pretty decent red dot/3 other options + magnifier that you can push to the side.

If you have not looked at them you should stop in and see what I am talking about. They DO seem VERY nice. Nice enough for me to want to put them on my Tavor when I get it. I forgot the name though. OH yeah! It was a SightMark Ultra Shot and a SightMark Magnifier (I forgot if it was 3/5/7x though)
http://www.opticsplanet.com/sightmar...dot-sight.html
http://www.opticsplanet.com/sightmar...magnifier.html
I am not an expert, but these looked good in real life. Nothing flimsy about them.

[Glock Girl in CA]

Stilly, your posts never fail to amuse! Your exuberance and zest for all things rifles comes straight through! I hope you get your tavor!

[HighLander51]

Originally Posted by stilly

You sure about that? Decent Iron sights for plinking are only a hundred or so.

For optics I can see what you mean by around $1k or so but I found at Turner's they have a magnifier for around $130 and a metal framed optic on sale for around $50 but the entire setup (both seperate pieces) will run about $190 or less on sale or find them on the web.

Not talking about irons, but I am positive about cheap red dots and scopes as I have seen them fail many times in the middle of a 3 gun match. I wouldn't go with anything less than an Aimpoint or EOtech, starting around $400. And keep in mind target distance, a 4 MOA dot is going to cover an 8" plate at 200 yards. Dots have to survive the same amount of recoil as the scope.

Now some of these cheaper dots are actually ok for 22 rimfire.

[kentactic]

If your planning on a legal gun a jerry-rigged CA compliant AR is about worthless in an actual gunfight. Sure you could convert it when the chinese hit the beach but did you train with it in that configuration?

Get a pump shotgun and train train train.

[stilly]

Originally Posted by Glock Girl in CA

Stilly, your posts never fail to amuse! Your exuberance and zest for all things rifles comes straight through! I hope you get your tavor!

Well thank you. I hope I get mine too... Exuberance and zest, certainly better than what I have been told I was full of in the past...

Originally Posted by HighLander51

Not talking about irons, but I am positive about cheap red dots and scopes as I have seen them fail many times in the middle of a 3 gun match. I wouldn't go with anything less than an Aimpoint or EOtech, starting around $400. And keep in mind target distance, a 4 MOA dot is going to cover an 8" plate at 200 yards. Dots have to survive the same amount of recoil as the scope.

Now some of these cheaper dots are actually ok for 22 rimfire.

Yes, there are CHEAP red dots and there are LESS EXPENSIVE red dots that do the job decently. I dunno if SightMark is battle rated (because I have not looked yet) but I would prefer a SightMark over an EoBlehc after they bought into that zombie crap and made biohazard zombie models.

One cheap red dot that I will NEVER own is a Barska. Anything that is made of plastic or Barska (Barfa?) is no longer a decent red dot for me. There are others on my list but Barska really stands out. Not even for a .22. I would put a UTG on my .22 before a Barska.

Aimpoint is decent too. I almost had a job with Aim Sports, and they are going to be upgrading a few lines to make some good stuff soon but anyways. It would be nice to have a list that one can reference to tell you + or - for a red dot or brand. Certainly just because they are made in USA does NOT mean they are superior. :\

Originally Posted by kentactic

If your planning on a legal gun a jerry-rigged CA compliant AR is about worthless in an actual gunfight. Sure you could convert it when the chinese hit the beach but did you train with it in that configuration?

Get a pump shotgun and train train train.

She is in a free state. She gets to get whatever she wants that is not NFA. (well, NFA just means a little longer wait). No Commiefornia crap on that rifle...

[HighLander51]

Yes, there are CHEAP red dots and there are LESS EXPENSIVE red dots that do the job decently.

Only know what I see in 3 gun matches. Cheap dots fail, Aimpoints and EOtechs run.

I dunno if SightMark is battle rated (because I have not looked yet) What does that mean?

[stilly]

Originally Posted by HighLander51

Yes, there are CHEAP red dots and there are LESS EXPENSIVE red dots that do the job decently.

Only know what I see in 3 gun matches. Cheap dots fail, Aimpoints and EOtechs run.

I dunno if SightMark is battle rated (because I have not looked yet) What does that mean?

I am not 100% certain either BUT apparently the battle rated sights can be thrown across your yard and put through all the harsh tests and still function with no issues. I have heard that Eotech WAS battle rated and a few other brands/models were also, but I view eotech as the Dillon of sights. I can not drop $500 for one of their cool sights, but I will happily take a less expensive sight brand/model (even a Bushnell TRS-25) as long as it can hold up to some pounding and recoil as well. Clearly though what you see being used in the matches for optics can be good to use on a home rifle as well since I imagine the sights on the rifles in 3 gun matches are there for clarity, reliability and speed, which are all great things to have for an optical sight.

[Off the Roster]

Originally Posted by Chickshooter

more CMMG dedicated 9mm here, except i bought it assembled. it is Milspec and surprises everyone when they pick it up and realize it is 9mm.

update:

the only complaint i have about this rifle is that it gets DIRTY (but i hear pistol caliber ARs have this tendency). I am loving this purchase and everyone i let shoot it (which is basically anyone at the range who expresses interest) can't say enough good things about this rifle. i did add a cheapie butt pad from amazon for the benefit of my girlie shoulder.

[stilly]

If you want to shoot pistol caliber ARFs then check out the JRCs (Just Right Carbine) yeah they cost about $700 but you can run glock mags in them and they effectively replace the camp rifles that Marlin made a few years ago that took a pounding.

RIGHT NOW, I believe that Bank Street Guns (located on Bank Street) in Kingman AZ has a .45 ACP and a 9mm JRC for around $600 or $700 each. They are very nice and you can buy a JRC caliber conversion kit I think to change calibers, or maybe just a new jrc upper. but it is nice because they use glock mags.

http://www.justrightcarbines.com/

[1859sharps]

Originally Posted by kentactic

If your planning on a legal gun a jerry-rigged CA compliant AR is about worthless in an actual gunfight. Sure you could convert it when the chinese hit the beach but did you train with it in that configuration?

Get a pump shotgun and train train train.

If you are preparing to fight a war....yes, a bullet buttoned AR is going to be a liability and worthless.

But for a home defense rifle, a bullet buttoned AR STILL HAS LOTS of value and usefulness.

But it's a moot point, the op isn't even California.

[HighLander51]

[QUOTE=Chickshooter;12686821]update:

the only complaint i have about this rifle is that it gets DIRTY (but i hear pistol caliber ARs have this tendency). QUOTE]

all AR15's get dirty because the gas is puked directly into the bolt key/carrier. It's just the way these guns work. They will run dry and clean, oily and clean, oily and dirty, but not dry and dirty for very long.

[Ladyrr]

Originally Posted by stilly

I am not 100% certain either BUT apparently the battle rated sights can be thrown across your yard and put through all the harsh tests and still function with no issues. I have heard that Eotech WAS battle rated and a few other brands/models were also, but I view eotech as the Dillon of sights. I can not drop $500 for one of their cool sights, but I will happily take a less expensive sight brand/model (even a Bushnell TRS-25) as long as it can hold up to some pounding and recoil as well. Clearly though what you see being used in the matches for optics can be good to use on a home rifle as well since I imagine the sights on the rifles in 3 gun matches are there for clarity, reliability and speed, which are all great things to have for an optical sight.

I have a sightmark. While it is the ultra shot model, it has not lost its zero and it has been fast fire tested. Meaning (6) 30 rnd one after another. still holding zero. it has 4 recitals so you can choose as well as 3 daylight setting and 2 night setting to be used with night vision. I have not tested the night vision. all in all I am happy using this site for training purposes. Now during competition, we will have to see. I have used my coaches red dot and while it is nice, the jury is still out. I shoot targets all day long with mine, even in low light and have not issues. But hey that is just me.