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  #1  
Old 10-19-2013, 11:57 AM
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Default The new and confusing world of modern sporting rifles

I don't have a rifle. That said, I want one. But I don't want Dad's hunting rifles, or his shot guns or anything bolt-action - I want a modern rifle, which leads me to the AR 15. Trouble is, I am floundering trying to ascertain what I need, what brand, gas vs piston, etc. I want to target shoot, and I want it for defense in case of foreign invaders and all that good stuff.

I know at least one lady on here recently got one, and I need advice. Or at least something to start from. Help me, Girls!
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  #2  
Old 10-19-2013, 3:12 PM
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Sorry, I am NOT one of the girls, BUT, what if you were to attend an AK build party and make your OWN rifle? Get a parts kit for around $300 or so, get a flat, pay the fee and show up and make your own AK in a day with the AK-Team guys. They are experts at building them and even I made a great looking pistol.


If you are just looking for an AR-15 type rifle then you can look all over and get just a decent build or make your own. Buy ANY lower, like a CMMG or Doublestar or whatever they sell in the stores, buy a parts kit and then purchase a complete upper on Gunbroker or elsewhere online. You can have multiple uppers sent to your house no FFL needed. Buy a long one for hunting and buy a carbine for home protection if you desire.

Gas or piston in MY opinion really makes no difference. SOME say that a piston makes it way more reliable, but mine has been fairly reliable and I have put about 500 rounds through it with no issues and I built mine with no piston.

Due to an issue shooting inside the home though an AR may NOT be the best for home defense.

In my opinion, if you have the money, you should look to get a CA legal TAVOR. They can be had for around $2000 but before you pass on it, at least have a look at them, they are bullpup designed rifles that are very versatile and great for CQB or in the home because they are very mobile in comparison to a longer AR. To get one in CA you might need to have a longer flashhider/compensator on it and push out the mag change pin so that you have to use a tool to drop the mag. OH and they use AR type mags as well... Another nice thing about them is I THINK you can remove the front accessory rail from the left or right and put the bolt handle there thus making it a lefty or righty gun, but I could be wrong in that, I was only TOLD that by the gun shop owner.

I am looking at getting one but I need to get employed first... Go look at them on Gunbroker and I bet you might like the design better than an AR. They are also very balanced and lightweight rifles.

Last edited by stilly; 10-19-2013 at 3:17 PM..
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  #3  
Old 10-19-2013, 4:47 PM
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Originally Posted by stilly View Post
Sorry, I am NOT one of the girls, BUT, what if you were to attend an AK build party and make your OWN rifle? Get a parts kit for around $300 or so, get a flat, pay the fee and show up and make your own AK in a day with the AK-Team guys. They are experts at building them and even I made a great looking pistol.


If you are just looking for an AR-15 type rifle then you can look all over and get just a decent build or make your own. Buy ANY lower, like a CMMG or Doublestar or whatever they sell in the stores, buy a parts kit and then purchase a complete upper on Gunbroker or elsewhere online. You can have multiple uppers sent to your house no FFL needed. Buy a long one for hunting and buy a carbine for home protection if you desire.

Gas or piston in MY opinion really makes no difference. SOME say that a piston makes it way more reliable, but mine has been fairly reliable and I have put about 500 rounds through it with no issues and I built mine with no piston.

Due to an issue shooting inside the home though an AR may NOT be the best for home defense.

In my opinion, if you have the money, you should look to get a CA legal TAVOR. They can be had for around $2000 but before you pass on it, at least have a look at them, they are bullpup designed rifles that are very versatile and great for CQB or in the home because they are very mobile in comparison to a longer AR. To get one in CA you might need to have a longer flashhider/compensator on it and push out the mag change pin so that you have to use a tool to drop the mag. OH and they use AR type mags as well... Another nice thing about them is I THINK you can remove the front accessory rail from the left or right and put the bolt handle there thus making it a lefty or righty gun, but I could be wrong in that, I was only TOLD that by the gun shop owner.

I am looking at getting one but I need to get employed first... Go look at them on Gunbroker and I bet you might like the design better than an AR. They are also very balanced and lightweight rifles.
This is a discussion I'd love for the guys to post to! Thanks for your thoughts; I'm looking for the rifle, so that eliminates the pistol. I'd probably rather buy something stock because I have NO idea what I'm doing. I moved to NV, so that probably expands my options a bit.

I thought I could jump in and learn from the roots up, as I did when I started with hand guns, but ARs are turning out to be very different. So many options, so many brands I've not heard of.... I'll check out a Tavor...
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  #4  
Old 10-19-2013, 4:51 PM
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I suggest an ak style rifle. Ammo is much cheaper and they work great out if the box. Unless you want tons of tactical accessories then go for AR. I have RRA Ar and it has been fun, but I like my ak more
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  #5  
Old 10-19-2013, 4:55 PM
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AR-15 is a great choice for a ladies rifle, for anyone for that matter. Smith and Wesson M&P-15 is a great off-the-rack entry level AR and one you are likely to find at a store. DPMS Oracle's are also pretty good. Probably a 16inch barrel with a mid-length handguard would be the way to start. A couple of 10-round mags and either basic flip up sights like Magpuls, if the rifly does not already have them. Vortex Strikefire is a great mid price red dot sight. A rig like that would definitely get you going in the right direction. From that point you could add or swap out parts as your style and tastes progress.
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Old 10-19-2013, 4:58 PM
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Also AK's have earned their place but they are not as user friendly and are nowhere near as versatile as an AR. Also they fire a heavier round so more kick. My advice is to stay away from an AK for now.
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  #7  
Old 10-19-2013, 5:19 PM
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I'm building myself a 9mm AR and I started with a dedicated lower and just built around it (CMMG parts). I did the research (made a checklist of all the parts I needed) and bought all the parts myself and have a friend who builds and sells them who is going to help me assemble it.
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  #8  
Old 10-19-2013, 5:53 PM
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Smith and Wesson M&P-15 is a great off-the-rack entry level AR and one you are likely to find at a store.
This^^
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  #9  
Old 10-19-2013, 7:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Steph View Post
I'm building myself a 9mm AR and I started with a dedicated lower and just built around it (CMMG parts). I did the research (made a checklist of all the parts I needed) and bought all the parts myself and have a friend who builds and sells them who is going to help me assemble it.
more CMMG dedicated 9mm here, except i bought it assembled. it is Milspec and surprises everyone when they pick it up and realize it is 9mm. i just started with rifles myself and once sighted in i was accurate to 75 years my 1st time out (using iron sights). i let the ROs have some fun with it and they were accurate out to 200 yards. 9mm makes it good for close quarters and home D.

it is a blast to shoot and ammo goes WAY too fast!


(funny, Steph and i seem to have the same tastes in both handguns and ARs)

Last edited by Off the Roster; 10-19-2013 at 7:20 PM..
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  #10  
Old 10-19-2013, 7:10 PM
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In talking with my cousin, he suggested (forgive me if I get it wrong)
1. 5.56 size barrel because it accepts both .223 and the other round
2. A3 something-or-other upper so you can change the sites
3. An "assist" feature to ease the round along if it gets jammed.
Again, you can see how cursory my research has been, but I'm working on it!
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  #11  
Old 10-19-2013, 7:12 PM
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Tagged.
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  #12  
Old 10-19-2013, 8:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Glock Girl in CA View Post
In talking with my cousin, he suggested (forgive me if I get it wrong)
1. 5.56 size barrel because it accepts both .223 and the other round
2. A3 something-or-other upper so you can change the sites
3. An "assist" feature to ease the round along if it gets jammed.
Again, you can see how cursory my research has been, but I'm working on it!
If you are on a tight budget, just get a Smith and Wesson M&P 15 sport 5.56 rifle. Its very affordable at Turners for $700 before taxes and DROS. I think its a great starter rifle since it has all the features you need. Once you get more familiar, you can look at other more expensive options like piston operated or better brands such as Daniel Defense, Colt, LMT, LWRCI, etc. Make sure you go to the gun store and try many different types until you find something that is comfortable to you in terms of size and weight. If you have questions, you can always ask the people in the shop.

Once you get more familiar with the gun, you can start changing parts for ergonomics. I love Magpul MOE grips and CTR stock on my guns. They are lightweight and feels very comfortable. Its really a personal preference that you can do at a later time.

To answer your questions:
1. A 5.56 barrel will accept NATO 5.56 and .223 cartridges. The size differences between the two cartridges are practically the same. The NATO cartridge has relatively thicker walls so it can handle higher pressures. The .223 cartridges should work fine in the 5.56 barrels.

2. The "A3" type of upper body is standard for most AR15 and it has a picatinny rail on top to allow you to change different types of sights (the M&P 15 has this style of body). The A3 type provides the most flexibility in terms of either iron, holographic, or scope sights. The "A1" or "A2" style of body has a handle shape which restricts the type of sights you can add to the gun (see the link below for images of the different styles).

3. Most AR uppers have a "forward assist" button to help push the bolt forward if a round is not seated all the way. Its a feature that is not often used unless you operated in sandy or dirty environments where dirt can get trapped in the bolt area. If you have a jam, pushing the bolt forward is probably not the best approach to fixing the problem. I hardly ever use the forward assist feature.

See the link below for more info. It may seem daunting at first, but part of the AR15's appeal is the fact that it is very adaptable.

http://www.ar15outfitters.com/The-Be...rts_ep_45.html

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f...s-guide-59600/

Last edited by ShadowX; 10-19-2013 at 9:16 PM..
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  #13  
Old 10-19-2013, 9:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ShadowX View Post
If you are on a tight budget, just get a Smith and Wesson M&P 15 sport 5.56 rifle. Its very affordable at Turners for $700 before taxes and DROS. I think its a great starter rifle since it has all the features you need. Once you get more familiar, you can look at other more expensive options like piston operated or better brands such as Daniel Defense, Colt, LMT, LWRCI, etc. Make sure you go to the gun store and try many different types until you find something that is comfortable to you in terms of size and weight. If you have questions, you can always ask the people in the shop.

To answer your questions:
1. A 5.56 barrel will accept NATO 5.56 and .223 cartridges. The size differences between the two cartridges are practically the same. The NATO cartridge has relatively thicker walls so it can handle higher pressures. The .223 cartridges should work fine in the 5.56 barrels.


2. The "A3" type of upper body is standard for most AR15 and it has a picatinny rail on top to allow you to change different types of sights (the M&P 15 has this style of body). The A3 type provides the most flexibility in terms of either iron, holographic, or scope sights. The "A1" or "A2" style of body has a handle shape which restricts the type of sights you can add to the gun (see the link below for images of the different styles).

3. Most AR uppers have a "forward assist" button to help push the bolt forward if a round is not seated all the way. Its a feature that is not often used unless you operated in sandy or dirty environments where dirt can get trapped in the bolt area.

See the link below for more info. It may seem daunting at first, but part of the AR15's appeal is the fact that it is very adaptable.

http://www.ar15outfitters.com/The-Be...rts_ep_45.html

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f...s-guide-59600/
Wow, thank you so much. Your post was incredibly useful to me and I am perusing the links now. Really appreciate it.
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  #14  
Old 10-19-2013, 9:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Glock Girl in CA View Post
Wow, thank you so much. Your post was incredibly useful to me and I am perusing the links now. Really appreciate it.
No problem. If you have any questions, just ask. There are no dumb questions since we all have to start somewhere. The choices for AR is very daunting for most beginners. I had the same questions when I first started.

If you are not sure about deciding between a gas impingement vs a piston gun, just go with a direct gas impingement type (DI). The cost is lower and differences compared to a piston type is relatively minor in my opinion. The gas impingement uses a small tube to bring the gases from the barrel to push against the piston inside the bolt carrier. The gas contains carbon and other soot and tends to leave carbon deposits around the bolt area.

The piston gun takes the exhaust gas and uses it to push a piston that is located near the barrel of the gun. The piston then pushes a rod all the way back to the bolt carrier assembly and pushes the bolt back as the gun cycles. The dirty gas is only contained in the small piston area in the front. Another benefit is the gas ports positions can be changed easily. When the port is set to 0, it would function like a bolt gun where you have to manually cycle each round. As the port number goes up, it allows more gas to the piston. If you have a very dirty gun, you can change the gas port position to compensate if you have problems cycling the rounds.

Here is a cartoon to compare how each design works:


I have both types. The piston uppers are easier to clean and the chamber is not as dirty. The original standard AR15 design is a DI type gun. There are arguments that gas pistons are less reliable since there are more parts that can break down. Each design has its good and bad features. The piston type guns are proprietary to each manufacturer and the parts are generally not interchangeable between different manufacturers. However, the reliability should be good for both guns if they are from a reputable manufacturer.

For a beginner, I think the cost increase is not worth the benefits unless you have lots of money to spend.

Last edited by ShadowX; 10-19-2013 at 10:03 PM..
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Old 10-20-2013, 2:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ShadowX View Post
No problem. If you have any questions, just ask. There are no dumb questions since we all have to start somewhere. The choices for AR is very daunting for most beginners. I had the same questions when I first started.

If you are not sure about deciding between a gas impingement vs a piston gun, just go with a direct gas impingement type (DI). The cost is lower and differences compared to a piston type is relatively minor in my opinion. The gas impingement uses a small tube to bring the gases from the barrel to push against the piston inside the bolt carrier. The gas contains carbon and other soot and tends to leave carbon deposits around the bolt area.

The piston gun takes the exhaust gas and uses it to push a piston that is located near the barrel of the gun. The piston then pushes a rod all the way back to the bolt carrier assembly and pushes the bolt back as the gun cycles. The dirty gas is only contained in the small piston area in the front. Another benefit is the gas ports positions can be changed easily. When the port is set to 0, it would function like a bolt gun where you have to manually cycle each round. As the port number goes up, it allows more gas to the piston. If you have a very dirty gun, you can change the gas port position to compensate if you have problems cycling the rounds.

Here is a cartoon to compare how each design works:


I have both types. The piston uppers are easier to clean and the chamber is not as dirty. The original standard AR15 design is a DI type gun. There are arguments that gas pistons are less reliable since there are more parts that can break down. Each design has its good and bad features. The piston type guns are proprietary to each manufacturer and the parts are generally not interchangeable between different manufacturers. However, the reliability should be good for both guns if they are from a reputable manufacturer.

For a beginner, I think the cost increase is not worth the benefits unless you have lots of money to spend.
Knock it off Mr ShadowX! Tell her she needs a TAVOR! Tell her! TELL HER!

Tavors are the AWESOME guns to own if you do not live in CA. They even come with a 30 round mag with a window. AND you can get them in black and FDE and maybe green, but they rule!

Okay I am done here...

Oh wait, one more:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock Girl in CA View Post
This is a discussion I'd love for the guys to post to! Thanks for your thoughts; I'm looking for the rifle, so that eliminates the pistol. I'd probably rather buy something stock because I have NO idea what I'm doing. I moved to NV, so that probably expands my options a bit.

I thought I could jump in and learn from the roots up, as I did when I started with hand guns, but ARs are turning out to be very different. So many options, so many brands I've not heard of.... I'll check out a Tavor...
OMFG! you live in NV? GET A TAVOR! DOOO IT! DEN GET TO DA CHOPPA!



OKay but seriously if you DO decide to get an ARF of some sort, the S&W one that folks are talking about is also nice because it is LIGHT. Many times folks (myself included) build an ARF and they end up getting cool things for it, but they turn out HEAVY. Mine was cool until I actually tried to shoot it, but I also got the long SS bull barrel because it was going to be a varmint rifle. So far the only varmints I have shot are clay pigeons, but at 154 yards out I hit them with 1-2 shots so I am a happy camper. I just wish that I had a lighter upper for plinking and range messing.

Really though I think the market is oversaturated with ARF crap and EVERYONE thinks theirs is the best. WTFE- to me an ARF is an ARF, but when you want it light and able to go long range, that is when you are gonna shell out some cash. A Tavotr is designed to hit a human target at 200 yards out with the iron sights or whatever it comes with. PLUS it is a bullpup and hella small compared to the ARF...

Oh yeah, another thing you need to watch out for, if you build an ARF pay attention to the stock and the buffer/barrel you have. RIFLE barrels need RIFLE buffers and CARBINE barrels should get carbine BUFFERS. The difference is the length. Just make certain they match up. Also, Milspec is smaller than commercial with regards to buffer tube sizes, so get a milspec buffer tube and you can put commercial or milspec on it, but get a commercial one and you can only run commercial... :\

OKay NOW I am done... (for now)

Last edited by stilly; 10-20-2013 at 2:11 AM..
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Old 10-20-2013, 5:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ShadowX View Post
If you are on a tight budget, just get a Smith and Wesson M&P 15 sport 5.56 rifle. Its very affordable at Turners for $700 before taxes and DROS. I think its a great starter rifle since it has all the features you need. Once you get more familiar, you can look at other more expensive options like piston operated or better brands such as Daniel Defense, Colt, LMT, LWRCI, etc. Make sure you go to the gun store and try many different types until you find something that is comfortable to you in terms of size and weight. If you have questions, you can always ask the people in the shop.

Once you get more familiar with the gun, you can start changing parts for ergonomics. I love Magpul MOE grips and CTR stock on my guns. They are lightweight and feels very comfortable. Its really a personal preference that you can do at a later time.

To answer your questions:
1. A 5.56 barrel will accept NATO 5.56 and .223 cartridges. The size differences between the two cartridges are practically the same. The NATO cartridge has relatively thicker walls so it can handle higher pressures. The .223 cartridges should work fine in the 5.56 barrels.

2. The "A3" type of upper body is standard for most AR15 and it has a picatinny rail on top to allow you to change different types of sights (the M&P 15 has this style of body). The A3 type provides the most flexibility in terms of either iron, holographic, or scope sights. The "A1" or "A2" style of body has a handle shape which restricts the type of sights you can add to the gun (see the link below for images of the different styles).

3. Most AR uppers have a "forward assist" button to help push the bolt forward if a round is not seated all the way. Its a feature that is not often used unless you operated in sandy or dirty environments where dirt can get trapped in the bolt area. If you have a jam, pushing the bolt forward is probably not the best approach to fixing the problem. I hardly ever use the forward assist feature.

See the link below for more info. It may seem daunting at first, but part of the AR15's appeal is the fact that it is very adaptable.

http://www.ar15outfitters.com/The-Be...rts_ep_45.html

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f...s-guide-59600/
The thing to realize is, what feels best to you and how much are you going to use it and for what?

The M&P 15 in 5.56 is an awesome rifle. I would recommend it highly!
Later if you think it is necessary change its upper to include a forward assist and a dust cover.
I do not shoot in the deserts of Iraq/Iran crawling around on my stomach out in Nevada or Arizona and tossing my rifle in the sand or fighting in sand storms.
I have shot a few thousand rounds through a M&P 15 and never had it jam/misfeed/ftf etc.
Always use good quality ammo and always brass and good quality magazines like Magpul and the S&W will perform flawlessly.
I did try it with some lower quality metal mags and it did jam on those. Went back to high quality metal and the Magpul and no problems.
Clear a jam? pull back on the charge handle and pull it out.
Forward assist? Never needed/used(Not in the jungles of Viet Nam or fighting in sand storms) Just make sure to not baby the bolt sliding home like all semi-autos.



Every time you add another feature you add weight and expense. If you want fun go with the old addage of 'KISS' and keep it simple.

My advice for whats its worth:
Quote: Free advice is seldom free and you get what you pay for.

Range use:
Picatinny rail for a scope and iron sights.
Collapsable stock if you have short arms.

Home defense:
Red dot sight.

I personally think a pistol is the way to go for home defense though but to each their own.

The rest is personal taste and adds weight.

To bad you moved, I would have taken you to the range and had you shoot one(if you have not ever done so).......

I have shot high powered rifles that would literally knock your socks off. I can shoot them one or three times and then I am so sore that I am done for the day.
For pure fun the AR is a literal blast and I can shoot it for hours without being shell-shocked. The buffer tube takes most of the recoil away. It is almost like shooting a .22lr a real joy!

Direct quote LtlOlLdy(shooting an AR) to spouse: Hand me anotha mag......WOT!?! all outta ammo, I jes' bougt a hunnerd rounds, ah shot em all up awready?!?! G$%$^D#$#%% all to *#&#^$ AND $%$^^.......!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, the old lady curses like a sailor on occasion.......
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Last edited by LittleOldLady; 10-20-2013 at 6:27 AM..
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Old 10-20-2013, 9:05 AM
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Thank you, thank you to everyone who is contributing information! I'm all busy looking up Smith and Wesson, gas vs piston and tavors! It's so good to have my footing in some basic knowledge! It's WAY different than learning about hand guns, so I'll take any help I can get!
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Old 10-20-2013, 11:38 AM
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Hey wait a second, why not buy one of each, then raffle off the ones you don't want here... BAM! problem solved...

There is one more thing, and since you are in a free state, then consider this as well, there are several other .223/5.56 rifles that do NOT need a buffer tube. One being the Robinson Arms XCR. My friend got one and he said it was a piston based ARF type rifle but it did not need a buffer because it had a piston. Now the XCR is NOt an ARF but it shoots the same ammo, runs the same mags etc. So also consider that in your choosing. If you wanna run a folding stock (as opposed to a telescoping stock) and have a shorter rifle then consider also a ZM based platform. It is actually an ARF I think but the upper is such taht it does not use a buffer and thus can also have a folding stock. : http://www.zmweapons.com/lr_rifles.htm

It is also a bit pricey, but if you are in NV then you can still own it. I personally still favor the Tavor...
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Old 10-20-2013, 6:19 PM
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Hello Glock Girl. First off, congratulations on moving to a (relatively) free state. I hope to do the same one day. So, on to some advice...

First let's talk about bullpup rifles, since there are some here pushing you to get a Tavor. Before you commit to that, you really need to learn about bullpups and their advantages/disadvantages. The only real-world advantage a bullpup offers is a longer barrel in a smaller overall-length weapon which allows you to have a more compact rifle for deployment from vehicles (like an armored personnel carrier), but that still retains long-range power and accuracy due to the longer barrel. They also have duel-purpose utility for situations where you need both CQB (urban) and long-range (open field) engagements, like in Iraq. Do you have such requirements? If not, then I'd recommend you avoid any bullpup. You can read more about bullpups here.

If you need a short weapon for CQB/HD, then you can always apply for a SBR (short-barrel rifle) since you live in NV. Or you could go with an AR pistol. Personally, I'd prefer a minimum-legal-length-barreled shotgun for HD anyway. They have tremendous one-shot knock-down power, with lesser risk of over-penetration. And there's nothing quite as intimidating as staring down that gaping 12GA barrel. The reality is that in almost any HD scenario, you don't need the long-range accuracy of a rifle, the high-power/high-penetration of a rifle cartridge, nor the ammo capacity of a standard battle rifle magazine.

Back to rifles. I would avoid the Smith & Wesson M&P 15 Sport. From what I've heard, it's a reliable and economical firearm. But it's upper is proprietary (I'm not sure about the lower).

The reality is, there are very few manufacturers that build rifles which are actually fielded by any military forces. LMT does, and they make exceptional rifles. But in order to handle the rigors of actual combat, they are very rugged and thus very heavy. They are also more expensive and difficult to obtain.

My recommendation would be to buy a Daniel Defense M4 Carbine v7 LW (Lightweight).



The DD rifles are technically not "Mil-Spec" because they are not built under government contract. But they are built to specifications that are as good or better than mil-spec. In other words, they are exceptionally well-made, and they are completely parts-compatible with other AR's (unlike the M&P 15 Sport). And they have a mid-length gas system and are lightweight, so easier and more comfortable to handle. The lightweight barrel would only sacrifice a little accuracy in an extended firing situation where the barrel gets very hot.
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Old 10-20-2013, 6:29 PM
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As a FYI you can change out the upper on the M&P 15 to any upper you like.
Again, are you a person, that wants to leave well enough alone and just have a fun rifle, or are you going to want to play 'dress up' with your rifle?

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-w...er-switch.html


To re-iterate the forward assist and dust cover are cool, but unless you are tossing it in the dirt and rolling in dirt they are really unnecessary in range use.
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Old 10-20-2013, 8:33 PM
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As a FYI you can change out the upper on the M&P 15 to any upper you like.
And how much will that second upper add to the cost of the previously economical M&P? And then what do you have? Just another frankenrifle (and an expensive one at that). If you're going to go that route, you may as well just build your own AR from parts. Then you can customize it the way you want and probably save some money as well.

If you get a fully-factory manufactured rifle like a DD or LMT, then you have a mil-spec grade rifle that is fully built and tested from one end to the other, one that is fully warranted by the manufacturer, and one that will retain its resale value. And I have NEVER heard a single bad word about a DD rifle. The only negatives I've heard about the LMT is that they are heavy and expensive.

ETA: Some people -- and I'm not suggesting it's anyone here -- will try to convince you to buy what they have bought to justify their own choices. So in the interest of full-disclosure, I do NOT own a Daniel Defense firearm; I just think it would be a better choice. (But I would be happy to own one.)
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:10 AM
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And how much will that second upper add to the cost of the previously economical M&P? And then what do you have? Just another frankenrifle (and an expensive one at that). If you're going to go that route, you may as well just build your own AR from parts. Then you can customize it the way you want and probably save some money as well.

If you get a fully-factory manufactured rifle like a DD or LMT, then you have a mil-spec grade rifle that is fully built and tested from one end to the other, one that is fully warranted by the manufacturer, and one that will retain its resale value. And I have NEVER heard a single bad word about a DD rifle. The only negatives I've heard about the LMT is that they are heavy and expensive.

ETA: Some people -- and I'm not suggesting it's anyone here -- will try to convince you to buy what they have bought to justify their own choices. So in the interest of full-disclosure, I do NOT own a Daniel Defense firearm; I just think it would be a better choice. (But I would be happy to own one.)
I forgot who said what but I would hate to see this turn into a Ford/ Chevy debate.

Essentially what you are telling everyone is to EDUCATE YOURSELF on the gun of your choice. I think that fairly sums it up? AND I totally agree. If you have money to burn then buy them all and test and then dump the ones you do not care for, but if you do not care to do that and you want to get ONE rifle and you do not mind the cost, well, then by all means, an EDUCATION on the company and what kinds of rifles they make would do some good. This is of course why the OP is posting this. I think that OP should look at all of the choices that have been suggested here and go to a local gun store and see what they ahve on the rack. Hold them and test them out- I know for a fact that they have several stores that sell killer rifles in LV AND in LV they even have one or more full auto firing ranges so you know they HAVE to have something similar or at least have something that you can hold and maybe even test. Although true the Tavor is not for everyone (but it should be), I like to push it because nobody really knows about it and I think it is a diamond in the rough, also I had a favorable fondling session in a gun store with it and I liked what I found, then I went home, looked it up, looked for negative things on it and had a hard time finding a lot of bad things with it. I especially liked that you could do a fast mag change and still keep your eyes on target. It will most likely be my next rifle. That article was a good read except that the P90 that the author favors so much is not very good at being lethal from the debates I had read online. But I think the bottom line to take away from this is just to start reading more about the rifles that might be in the running and even ask the company some questions about weight and interchangability.

Me personally, I would most likely NOT buy a DD or LMT or LWRC or Larue Tactical or ANY prebuilt ARF because they are so much fun to build from parts that I would rather enjoy doing that and then just get an upper or two and swap them back and forth as needed. Heck, for me the lowers are ALMOST back down to baseball card status so you can go to the store and buy a few of them and then just build them as you need them. But that is me and I do not mind having several different rifles.

In any event, I think OP is on the right track and I think there are a few solid suggestions in this thread to give her plenty of information to read. But when you make the purchase, by all means post the pics and why you bought that rifle.

:flickcig:

Last edited by stilly; 10-21-2013 at 12:13 AM..
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Old 10-21-2013, 5:30 AM
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I forgot who said what but I would hate to see this turn into a Ford/ Chevy debate.

Essentially what you are telling everyone is to EDUCATE YOURSELF on the gun of your choice. I think that fairly sums it up? AND I totally agree. If you have money to burn then buy them all and test and then dump the ones you do not care for, but if you do not care to do that and you want to get ONE rifle and you do not mind the cost, well, then by all means, an EDUCATION on the company and what kinds of rifles they make would do some good. This is of course why the OP is posting this. I think that OP should look at all of the choices that have been suggested here and go to a local gun store and see what they ahve on the rack. Hold them and test them out- I know for a fact that they have several stores that sell killer rifles in LV AND in LV they even have one or more full auto firing ranges so you know they HAVE to have something similar or at least have something that you can hold and maybe even test. Although true the Tavor is not for everyone (but it should be), I like to push it because nobody really knows about it and I think it is a diamond in the rough, also I had a favorable fondling session in a gun store with it and I liked what I found, then I went home, looked it up, looked for negative things on it and had a hard time finding a lot of bad things with it. I especially liked that you could do a fast mag change and still keep your eyes on target. It will most likely be my next rifle. That article was a good read except that the P90 that the author favors so much is not very good at being lethal from the debates I had read online. But I think the bottom line to take away from this is just to start reading more about the rifles that might be in the running and even ask the company some questions about weight and interchangability.

Me personally, I would most likely NOT buy a DD or LMT or LWRC or Larue Tactical or ANY prebuilt ARF because they are so much fun to build from parts that I would rather enjoy doing that and then just get an upper or two and swap them back and forth as needed. Heck, for me the lowers are ALMOST back down to baseball card status so you can go to the store and buy a few of them and then just build them as you need them. But that is me and I do not mind having several different rifles.

In any event, I think OP is on the right track and I think there are a few solid suggestions in this thread to give her plenty of information to read. But when you make the purchase, by all means post the pics and why you bought that rifle.

:flickcig:
Roger that, giving advice always has a tendency to accomplish that goal.

Exactly why I mentioned the S&W as a sweet rifle. I personally do not care what the OP winds up with. It can even be pink for all I care.

My post was to correct a misconception of someone who did not have the facts and was giving false information regarding the ability to change an upper.

As a further FYI, if one knows the 'right' people one can get a mil-spec upper for around $90 installed.
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Old 10-21-2013, 5:47 AM
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Lots of good advice given so far, as well as the usual AR vs AK, Bullpup's rule/suck schtick.

Well now that you've had some time to learn a little bit more, why not sit down and start making a list of what you dont need, want to do with your rifle.
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:43 AM
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I've got a great start here, All, and will let you know what I end up choosing! BTW, I've also heard people are liking the Sig AR. Haven't checked it out yet...
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:50 AM
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Before you leap, check out some non-AR semi auto rifles, such as: the Browning BAR. Good looking, accurate, many calibers to choose from, drop dead reliable, proven design, many versions available. I have one in .243, but for the record, I also have a SCAR 16s, which is in the other direction.

I can also recommend the Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30 to you. The new models are far more accurate than older models as Ruger re-tooled and made many detail changes.

Also be sure to check out the Thureon Defense Carbine in 9mm.

All of the foregoing are gas piston operated, by the way.

In other words, open your eyes beyond the AR world!
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Old 10-21-2013, 4:40 PM
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Hi - not to hijack the thread, but I have been thinking of the either the S&W M&P 15 (if there is an MOE version) or Windham Weaponary AR's as well.

Any opinions on the above?
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Old 10-21-2013, 4:47 PM
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If you want hunting and target out of a AR Rifle then I suggest 6mm or 6.5G.
I would use a lower like this to build a light weight rifle for hunting http://www.gwacsarmory.com/cav-15-mk...eceiver-ar-15/
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Old 10-22-2013, 8:22 PM
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Wow. That would be great for a dedicated .22lr build in Commiefornia...

Folks say it seems to be holding up but I always wonder about larger calibers with the poly lowers...
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Old 10-23-2013, 6:08 AM
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The fastest way to learn about AR's is to show up at your nearest 3 gun match and tell them you are interested. Then it is just a matter of how much you want to spend....
$700 to $4,500

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Old 10-23-2013, 11:05 AM
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Oh god PLEASE do not tell me they have $4500 RACE-ARFs now...

WTF will they come up with next? Okay, I want a Race-Burper...
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Old 10-23-2013, 11:20 AM
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i rec a scar 16 if you have the $
solid rifle, accurate, amidextrous, piston driven.
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Old 10-23-2013, 3:44 PM
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I'm not sure why there is such a push for pistons. The AR's DI system is ingenious in it's operation, using high-pressure gas inside the carrier to unlock the bolt and drive the carrier rearward. No metal piston rod slamming on the carrier off-axis, imparting a downward rotational force (moment arm) to the carrier.

The DI system has been proven in combat and in torture tests of thousands of rounds, even without cleaning. Yes, it takes a little more effort to clean. So what?
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Old 10-23-2013, 7:01 PM
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I'm not sure why there is such a push for pistons. The AR's DI system is ingenious in it's operation, using high-pressure gas inside the carrier to unlock the bolt and drive the carrier rearward. No metal piston rod slamming on the carrier off-axis, imparting a downward rotational force (moment arm) to the carrier.

The DI system has been proven in combat and in torture tests of thousands of rounds, even without cleaning. Yes, it takes a little more effort to clean. So what?
pistons help with the use of steel cased ammo and short barrels.-short barrels give DI systems problems.
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Old 10-23-2013, 7:13 PM
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Wow. That would be great for a dedicated .22lr build in Commiefornia...

Folks say it seems to be holding up but I always wonder about larger calibers with the poly lowers...
This style of polymer lower has been used for .458 Socom builds.

you can google it
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Old 10-23-2013, 7:36 PM
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I say any aluminum lower+ bcm upper of your choice. I didnt want to assemble so I got a complete M&P lower + picked a midlength upper and bolt carrier group from bcm. Happy as a clam
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Old 10-23-2013, 7:38 PM
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Buy a parts kit, like this one from PSA
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...rifle-kit.html

Then buy a lower at one of your LGS, a few tools (you probably already have some of them), and build it yourself. More fun, it's not that hard, and, unlike what obummer says, you can say "I built that!"

Also, get the parts to build a dedicated .22lr upper so you can have a little plinking fun without breaking the bank on .223/5.56 ammo.

Oh, and you'll probably want a red dot sight, or a scope.

If you wish, you can always add a piston kit later. I do like them, as the chamber does stay much cleaner.
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Old 10-23-2013, 9:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SonofWWIIDI View Post
Buy a parts kit, like this one from PSA
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...rifle-kit.html

Then buy a lower at one of your LGS, a few tools (you probably already have some of them), and build it yourself. More fun, it's not that hard, and, unlike what obummer says, you can say "I built that!"

Also, get the parts to build a dedicated .22lr upper so you can have a little plinking fun without breaking the bank on .223/5.56 ammo.
Oh, and you'll probably want a red dot sight, or a scope.

If you wish, you can always add a piston kit later. I do like them, as the chamber does stay much cleaner.
LoL. You had me till that point. She certainly will save money because all the ****ING gougers are still trying to sell their POS .22lr ammo that they lined up at wallyworld to buy at 6:00 in the morning for $90/500 rounds...

At least if she stays .223 she can still shoot. Bunch of ****ing *******s these guys... I am about ready to start hunting down the fools that do this **** and follow them home, then tell everyone where they live so they can go get ammo... Oh okay... I typed in STINGER in gunbroker looking for a pen gun with the name of Stinger and I see all of these auctions pop up with these asshats selling like 100 rounds of CCI Stingers for $20+ each, I mean, one auction had 500 for $98! AND IT HAD BIDS! WTF is with these desperate fools that are buying this? Just to piss the sellers off I want to bust into my stash and start offering it to those in need for the sticker price, no, that is too cheap, maybe a few dollars over prepanic prices but not $15+ over This is still ridiculous...

Okay so what ARF did we settle on now? When is it coming in? BTW, I am going to have to recco AGAINST getting an 80% lower currently... Just saying...
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Old 10-24-2013, 3:30 PM
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Also AK's have earned their place but they are not as user friendly and are nowhere near as versatile as an AR. Also they fire a heavier round so more kick. My advice is to stay away from an AK for now.
*massive eye rolling* AK's don't have that much "kick" to them vs an AR. I have owned both in the past and would NOT even think to mention "kick" and AK in the same thought/sentence etc it's that insignificant.

If you want an AK, go for it.

if you want an AR, since you now live in NV...pickup a colt 6920. you won't regret it. keeps things simple and you get a very well built rifle. outside California they range from 1050 to 1200. And often can even be found at walmart of all places.

want something cool and different and have money to burn...get whatever the heck that strikes your fancy. when it really, really comes down to, that is how/why most people buy a rifle/handgun/shotgun. if you end up not liking it, sell and buy something else.

But in my opinion, if you want simple, reliable, easy to use....colt 6920 is the way to go. you are in a free state after all...so why the heck not.
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Old 10-24-2013, 3:34 PM
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Hi - not to hijack the thread, but I have been thinking of the either the S&W M&P 15 (if there is an MOE version) or Windham Weaponary AR's as well.

Any opinions on the above?
with respect, given the prices of a colt outside california...why would you buy a windham?

I would buy an M&P before a windham, but not before a colt.

but if you mean for your self. If you can't get your hands on a California legal colt, go SW M&P 15. forget about the Windham.
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