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  #1  
Old 10-09-2013, 5:35 PM
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Default pulled bullet gouges...affects accuracy or reloading?

so i just bought a crap load of M118 Sierra Match King boolits. They were pulled from military M118 sniper ammunition.

the question i have is, will the gouge you see in the picture from what looks like the crimp (not sure) affect anything? I havent loaded them yet but Im sure the OAL will be close to this line as well, so do you think it will affect reloading at all?

FYI, these had sealant (black stuff) on them and was easily removed with acetone, then wiped down with a wet water rag to prevent any other chemical reactions. this cleaned it up really well.

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Old 10-09-2013, 5:40 PM
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Is the jacket intact?

If so, then no worries.
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Old 10-09-2013, 5:47 PM
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Highly doubt it. You should be fine.

Let us know how those things shoot.
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Old 10-09-2013, 6:38 PM
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At the rate the bullets are spinning and moving alone, any imperfection and asymmetry will affect the stability and path of flight. The question is by "how much".

The pulled SMKs I used to buy have very faint pulled marks on them. Yours look much more pronounce and seem deeper.
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Old 10-09-2013, 6:49 PM
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I haven't found pull marks to affect anything much, but I'm just plinking for fun, so an inch or two per 100 yards I wouldn't notice.
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Old 10-09-2013, 7:17 PM
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I've been told that the barrel will swage most pull marks out of the bullet so as long as the jacket is not cut through to the core then they should be fine. I wouldn't shoot them in a match but I'd use them for practice and plinking all day long.
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Old 10-09-2013, 7:21 PM
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good to know. the jacket is intact. I'll let everyone know how it goes.
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Old 10-09-2013, 7:57 PM
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Your pulled bullet crimp marks are just fine. I use pulled M118LR bullets using 39.6 gr IMR4895, Federall GMM Cases, Win LR primers, with an overall length of 2.800". I'm getting 1/2 to 3/4 MOA at 100yds and 2390 fps 10' from the muzzle. The only bullets that I set aside for plinking are the ones that have gouges along the boat tail of the bullet. There's always a handful (4 or 5) in each batch of 1000 that I have to set aside due to the boat tail gouge. Those handful are still good for plinking, so I never let them go to waste. One of these days I'll load some factory perfect 175gr SMK's to compare to my pulled ones. I doubt they'll be anymore accurate than the 1/2 to 3/4 MOA that I'm getting with the pulls, but I'm still interested in confirming
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Old 10-09-2013, 8:31 PM
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please update us,
for no scientific reason, I relegate any and all pulled bullets to a "seconds" pile for plinking. Even If I don't crimp them.
I'm sure many of us do the same. Makes me wonder now...
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:09 PM
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....
Quote:
was easily removed with acetone, then wiped down
....

Acetone. Really? Acetone.

Do you clean you coffee cup with, acetone? Then why would you....never mind.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:21 PM
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Does the M118 bullet attract a magnet?
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by hambam105 View Post
........

Acetone. Really? Acetone.

Do you clean you coffee cup with, acetone? Then why would you....never mind.
sorry if i take pride in making things clean. i was merely letting people know that the sealant is removed easily with acetone. i don't even understand your relationship between a coffee cup and acetone. so based on your logic, it would be okay for me to use dishwashing liquid to clean my bullets because obviously i clean my coffee cup with that. logic fail...think about what you write before trying to sound smart or funny or sound intelligent by using analogies.

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Does the M118 bullet attract a magnet?
just tried it. answer is no
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  #13  
Old 10-09-2013, 11:30 PM
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Sure a gouge in the jacket may not but I have seen some machine pulled bullets that were deformed. And that must throw of the rotational balance affecting accuracy.

Air pulled, collet pulled, machine pulled.

Last edited by joelogic; 10-09-2013 at 11:54 PM..
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:36 PM
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I lucked out and bought some pulled 8MM restruck to 308.

I use regular pulled bullets in my 1919 and for range fodder in my M1A's they are accurate. even with the pull marks.
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  #15  
Old 10-09-2013, 11:44 PM
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You should be fine. I shot pulled 250gr SMK's 338 LM out of my TRG with very good results.
This was my data
Pulled 250gr SMK 338 LM
Lands at 3.755
Seated Mag Length/OAL 3.740 which is .015 jump
Lapua Case Trimmed to 2.714
Federal 215 Primer
Powder 92.4gr of N165
Don't have the FPS data off hand but one ragged whole at 300yards 1inch groups at 600.. Not bad for pulled projectiles IMO..
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by joelogic View Post
Sure a gouge in the jacket may not but I have seen some machine pulled bullets that were deformed. And that must throw of the rotational balance affecting accuracy.

Air pulled, collet pulled, machine pulled.
Those air pulled bullets look good as new.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Clever View Post
Don't have the FPS data off hand but one ragged whole at 300yards 1inch groups at 600.. Not bad for pulled projectiles IMO..
You are either a extremely good shooter, very lucky, or a very good story teller...

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Old 10-10-2013, 10:47 AM
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1/6 moa? Wow.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
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Does the M118 bullet attract a magnet?
No, they don't. They are not steel core.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:22 AM
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1/6 moa? Wow.
Must also be a windless day as well !!
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:48 AM
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Oh boy, oh boy, I get to comment! Being cheap, and extremely lackadaisical, I used a bunch of collet pulled .224" Varmint Grenades in some initial loads for a new barrel. They had score rings around them, but so what? Well, for one thing the cores aren't soft and pliable like lead, they're more like a copper chalk stick. Hoped they didn't crack from being pulled. Shot one of the smallest groups of all time, at least my lifetime, which drove me to order a Wendy's #4 with extra side of fries on the way home from the range. What a celebration!
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agustav View Post
You are either a extremely good shooter, very lucky, or a very good story teller...

I am a story teller.. You happy? Or you calling me out. Take your pic..
Just to clarify some things for you, very simple.. The 6BR you referred to has ancestry leading back to what European country, what 6MM cartridge and why is it still considered a hunting round in Eastern Europe. How did it evolve as a competition bullet and how many variations came from it. My elders use to shoot this particular round for medium game and still do.. So what 6MM cartridge sparked this American Bench Rest Revolution. Mind you the 260 Remington and the 6.5X284 existed in the US..Ole boy Kennedy was assassinated with a 6.5X284.. So. 6MM, 6.5MM. 6.5Xwhatever.. How did this come about, I still have rifles that shot these before any of us were born..

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Old 10-10-2013, 12:43 PM
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I am a story teller.. You happy? Or you calling ne out. Take your pic..

Here is the world record for 600 yards BR competition. Just saying...

and they are definitely not using factory rifles!

PS. Unless your name is Wolf or Terry... then my apologies!

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  #24  
Old 10-10-2013, 12:56 PM
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To paraphrase Winnie the Pooh, I'm a bear of little brain. So can someone tell me what's the big booboo about using acetone to wipe down bullets?
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Old 10-10-2013, 6:26 PM
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To paraphrase Winnie the Pooh, I'm a bear of little brain. So can someone tell me what's the big booboo about using acetone to wipe down bullets?
there's no issues with it. the guy was probably thinking why i care whether or not there is sealant on the bullets.

it's like telling people, why do you clean your house, why do you wash your clothes, and i guess as it pertains to firearms and this forum...why do you clean your gun, or why do you care what the muzzle brake looks like.

Some people take pride in the work they do, take pride in the cleanliness of their belongings, etc. That guy apparently doesn't.
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Old 10-10-2013, 6:36 PM
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If it makes you feel any better, I have used acetone on my pulled bullets. Mainly the 147gr and 152gr FMJ's, since they have a lot more of the tar than the pulled 175gr M118LR bullets.

I like nice shiny bullets just like you do. I also tumble my brass until they're nice and shiny. I have plenty of people tell me how that's useless, but that's how I like them, so that's how I process them.

In my earlier post, I mentioned gouges on the boat tail of the bullets. What I mean by them are vertical gouges along the boat tail. For some reason that I don't know why, it affects accuracy on some of the bullets. As for the circular crimp ring on the bullet, I don't think it matters. Like I mentioned in my previous post, I'm getting 1/2 to 3/4 MOA at 100 yards. The rifle I'm shooting it in is a Remington 700 PSS with Leupold M3 scope. It is my departmental issue sniper rifle, so technically, it doesn't belong to me.
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Old 10-10-2013, 8:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clever View Post
You should be fine. I shot pulled 250gr SMK's 338 LM out of my TRG with very good results.
This was my data
Pulled 250gr SMK 338 LM
Lands at 3.755
Seated Mag Length/OAL 3.740 which is .015 jump
Lapua Case Trimmed to 2.714
Federal 215 Primer
Powder 92.4gr of N165
Don't have the FPS data off hand but one ragged whole at 300yards 1inch groups at 600.. Not bad for pulled projectiles IMO..
One ragged whole...and 1" groups at 600 yards...that would be almost good enough to set a world record ,.....if it was one ragged hole instead!! Thats 0.166 moa and taking account for wind I would say...that's crazy.

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?...ss-competition

And....you would better the current world record set in completion by 50%! Now that's simply.....amazing??!?!?


To answer the original question, any changes to the concentricity of the bullet about its axis is surely going to make a bullet less accurate, and a crease in the jacket will affect the concentricty. At high speed rotation any variation or non symmetry about the axis will eventually pull a bullet off course.

Last edited by bubbapug1; 10-10-2013 at 9:53 PM..
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Old 10-10-2013, 9:00 PM
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Okay, I'll bite:

If your tongue might detect the presence of microscopic acetone particles in a coffee cup recently cleaned with it, what kind of reaction do you think the same amount of acetone might have with the gunpowder in a air tight cartridge case?

I'd be Reloading 7.62x51mm for the next 30 years and I don't think I'd ever think of cruising the painting isle at Home Dee-Pot in search of improving shooting accuracy. Maybe I could learn something here?


Don't take my word for it. Ask the person who issued you the rifle. If I issued a Remington to someone and they used home Reloads with pulled bullets and acetone, no less, and produced half-inch groups I know I'd want to know about it.

Last edited by hambam105; 10-10-2013 at 9:07 PM..
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  #29  
Old 10-10-2013, 9:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hambam105 View Post
Okay, I'll bite:

If your tongue might detect the presence of microscopic acetone particles in a coffee cup recently cleaned with it, what kind of reaction do you think the same amount of acetone might have with the gunpowder in a air tight cartridge case?

I'd be Reloading 7.62x51mm for the next 30 years and I don't think I'd ever think of cruising the painting isle at Home Dee-Pot in search of improving shooting accuracy. Maybe I could learn something here?


Don't take my word for it. Ask the person who issued you the rifle. If I issued a Remington to someone and they used home Reloads with pulled bullets and acetone, no less, and produced half-inch groups I know I'd want to know about it.
thats why you wipe them down with a wet rag of water....
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by hambam105 View Post
Okay, I'll bite:

If your tongue might detect the presence of microscopic acetone particles in a coffee cup recently cleaned with it, what kind of reaction do you think the same amount of acetone might have with the gunpowder in a air tight cartridge case?
Wait... wait... you are not really claiming that acetone is left on anything that you clean with it right? Because that's "non-science" crazy talk. Acetone leaves no residue when it evaporates. Non Reagent grade acetone may have impurities in it that are left behind but those will be in extremely small trace quantities if they do not also evaporate. Pro tip: most of the impurities found in consumer grade acetone would also evaporate with the acetone. Pro tip #2: the impurity with the greatest quantity found in consumer grade acetone is in most measured cases <.5% and is water, the next are isopropyl alcohol and methanol, both of which are fine cleaners in themselves.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:54 PM
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Like I said, I don't know what the effects are with acetone laced rifle gun powder are. Just so we are clear:
All Reloaders have my permission to use all the house hold cleaning agents on their home loads they desire.

Sherwood Williams for all of your painting and reloading needs. I dig. "I'll see your .308 acetone loads and raise you two Drano .38 Specials".

Milotrain, I know you & all the other posters on this topic mean well. Thanks. I enjoy reading everyone's opinion. Until I can write the words chemical engineering without the assistance of Spell Check I'm sticking with acetone free Reloads, wet or dry.

Last edited by hambam105; 10-10-2013 at 10:57 PM..
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbapug1 View Post
One ragged whole...and 1" groups at 600 yards...that would be almost good enough to set a world record ,.....if it was one ragged hole instead!! Thats 0.166 moa and taking account for wind I would say...that's crazy.

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?...ss-competition

And....you would better the current world record set in completion by 50%! Now that's simply.....amazing??!?!?


To answer the original question, any changes to the concentricity of the bullet about its axis is surely going to make a bullet less accurate, and a crease in the jacket will affect the concentricty. At high speed rotation any variation or non symmetry about the axis will eventually pull a bullet off course.
I have also achieved this..
Sako TRG 42 338 Lapua Magnum 1:10 Twist
Lapua Brass Fire Formed Trimmed 2.720 (0.002 neck tension)
Federal 215M
Retumbo 93.3gr
300gr Berger OTM .010 Jammed
OAL 3.765
Lands at 3.755
Ogive to base 2.875
Averaging 2875 fps
2 inch groups at 700 yards off sand bags
80 degrees Fahrenheit
Mohave Dessert 2/2011
24"X24" Man Size Metal Plate at 1750
12 shots Landing 4 off sand bags
Don't shoot F-Class, Don't know anyone. I come from a family of rifleman, all from Eastern Europe (Still have family there in the Armed forces, shooting TRG's for a living). I was raised in Los Angeles, been shooting since I can remember. World record and 6mmBR I totally understand, there are Hunters the have shot 1inch groups 6 and 700 yards. There are rifleman all around the world that accomplish amazing accuracy and and Marksmanship. Now do you hear about them? NO.. F-Class shooters NO.. World record Holders NO.. But can and will make shots that will rival world class marksman. You are correct and can make those statements because they are recorded by recognized organizations.. You can copy any paste all day about others .. But can you reload and flat out shoot?..I have been all over the World and I am an unknown. Yes I shoot a FACTORY Sako TRG 42 338 Lapua Magnum.. And yes I have accomplished these shots.. If it's a little far fetched for you it's reality at it's best for me... I would not underestimate a 3 year old.. All due Respect..

CLEVER
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Last edited by Clever; 10-11-2013 at 12:52 AM..
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Old 10-11-2013, 5:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Clever View Post
I have also achieved this..
Sako TRG 42 338 Lapua Magnum 1:10 Twist
Lapua Brass Fire Formed Trimmed 2.720 (0.002 neck tension)
Federal 215M
Retumbo 93.3gr
300gr Berger OTM .010 Jammed
OAL 3.765
Lands at 3.755
Ogive to base 2.875
Averaging 2875 fps
2 inch groups at 700 yards off sand bags
80 degrees Fahrenheit
Mohave Dessert 2/2011
24"X24" Man Size Metal Plate at 1750
12 shots Landing 4 off sand bags
Don't shoot F-Class, Don't know anyone. I come from a family of rifleman, all from Eastern Europe (Still have family there in the Armed forces, shooting TRG's for a living). I was raised in Los Angeles, been shooting since I can remember. World record and 6mmBR I totally understand, there are Hunters the have shot 1inch groups 6 and 700 yards. There are rifleman all around the world that accomplish amazing accuracy and and Marksmanship. Now do you hear about them? NO.. F-Class shooters NO.. World record Holders NO.. But can and will make shots that will rival world class marksman. You are correct and can make those statements because they are recorded by recognized organizations.. You can copy any paste all day about others .. But can you reload and flat out shoot?..I have been all over the World and I am an unknown. Yes I shoot a FACTORY Sako TRG 42 338 Lapua Magnum.. And yes I have accomplished these shots.. If it's a little far fetched for you it's reality at it's best for me... I would not underestimate a 3 year old.. All due Respect..

CLEVER
I believe you!

Don't take offense at the know-it-all crowd. Some of these folks are benchrest shooters that carry the tiniest groups they have shot in their wallets instead of pictures of kids and grand kids.

This stuff is REALLY important to them, too important. So just go have fun and ignore the ignorant.
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Old 10-11-2013, 8:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hambam105 View Post
Like I said, I don't know what the effects are with acetone laced rifle gun powder are. Just so we are clear:
All Reloaders have my permission to use all the house hold cleaning agents on their home loads they desire.

Sherwood Williams for all of your painting and reloading needs. I dig. "I'll see your .308 acetone loads and raise you two Drano .38 Specials".

Milotrain, I know you & all the other posters on this topic mean well. Thanks. I enjoy reading everyone's opinion. Until I can write the words chemical engineering without the assistance of Spell Check I'm sticking with acetone free Reloads, wet or dry.
So why are you posting then? If you don't know, don't give advice. I clean sealant out with Brake Cleaner on a Q-tip and have never had any adverse reaction. Gunpowder is coated with carbon which insulates the grains from whatever chemicals may be encountered. Acetone is only a solvent. It does not react with anything or make things unstable. It is highly volatile and will be completely dry before you get any powder in the case.
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Old 10-11-2013, 9:17 AM
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Originally Posted by hambam105 View Post
Milotrain, I know you & all the other posters on this topic mean well. Thanks. I enjoy reading everyone's opinion. Until I can write the words chemical engineering without the assistance of Spell Check I'm sticking with acetone free Reloads, wet or dry.
You know, thanks for not taking my dickish comments and going off on it. Sorry about my attitude. There is nothing wrong with avoiding things you aren't sure about in terms of chemical contaminants and explosives. That's completely reasonable.

I'll maintain though that in this case you likely won't find contaminants remaining in any quantity that could even be measured. But it is great practice to avoid contaminants in general.
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  #36  
Old 10-11-2013, 10:49 AM
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Acetone is widely used in cleaning laboratory equipment since it is a very good solvent and also removes moisture, but the biggest advantage acetone has over water or other solvents is that it evaporates completely leaving no residual chemicals on the laboratory equipment. When the highest level of cleanliness is required many labs wash first with water and detergent and then rinsh with acetone.
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Old 10-11-2013, 5:45 PM
hambam105 hambam105 is offline
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J-Cat,
Quote:
If you don't know, don't give advice.
do you see any advice from me on this topic?

By the way, where is your degree in Chemical Engineering? What powder company...what reloading manual addresses, promotes or recommends the use of acetone or any other harsh chemical agent for Reloading?

I personally of know half a dozen construction workers who would systematically cleanse there hand tools in the liquid PCBs that came directly out of High Voltage transformers that they would be working on. Back then it was a safe practice because no one died as a result, yet.

I have only been successfully Reloading for .308 Winchester for plus 25 years, that may change with my next range visit. But as of now, I'm totally clueless on the effects of solvents, of all kinds, mixed in the powder for my Reloads. HHmmm. Maybe all the half-inch group shooters have been adding cleaning solvents to their Loads for years now and never told me. Again, I may be clueless, but I do have enough common sense to follow, and not argue with, established safe Reloading procedures outlined in the manual.

Who knows? Maybe the gunpowder manufactures next year will sanction the constructive internal uses of acetone for Reloading purposes. Until then, please do not anticipate a experimental range report from me on the dangers of adding industrial solvents to gunpowder.

Last edited by hambam105; 10-11-2013 at 6:03 PM..
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  #38  
Old 10-11-2013, 6:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hambam105 View Post
J-Cat, do you see any advice from me on this topic?

By the way, where is your degree in Chemical Engineering? What powder company...what reloading manual addresses, promotes or recommends the use of acetone or any other harsh chemical agent for Reloading?

I personally of know half a dozen construction workers who would systematically cleanse there hand tools in the liquid PCBs that came directly out of High Voltage transformers that they would be working on. Back then it was a safe practice because no one died as a result, yet.

I have only been successfully Reloading for .308 Winchester for plus 25 years, that may change with my next range visit. But as of now, I'm totally clueless on the effects of solvents, of all kinds, mixed in the powder for my Reloads. HHmmm. Maybe all the half-inch group shooters have been adding cleaning solvents to their Loads for years now and never told me. Again, I may be clueless, but I do have enough common sense to follow and not argue with established safe Reloading procedures outlined in the manual.

Who knows? Maybe the gunpowder manufactures next year will sanction the constructive internal uses of acetone for Reloading purposes. Until then, please do not anticipate a range report from me on the dangers of adding industrial solvents to gunpowder.
we're not adding industrial solvents to gunpowder.

first off, you started getting flack because you made a comment about using acetone to clean boolits, where you don't know the effect yourself so shame on you. what if it was perfectly safe to do so, which by all my estimations, it is okay.

second, we/i am not using acentone IN my bullets. read my post carefully. im sure there are more solvents and other contaminates on the surface of the bullet from the manufacturing and handling process than the acetone residue I would be leaving IF i wasn't wiping them down afterwards with a wet rag. do you know the effects of certain oils from our hands and from everyday products we touch and if they affect gunpowder? i guess we ALL should be reloading in a clean room to ensure NO contaminants because the danger it poses.

>>end rant. debate over.
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  #39  
Old 10-11-2013, 6:17 PM
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I haven't seen any comments about adding stuff to gunpowder. OP said he used acetone to clean off the projectiles, and that he wipes it clean with a rag afterwards. Others have said it evaporates very quickly anyway. Someone else said brake cleaner on the projectile, applied via q-tip.

Like I said before, I'm a bear of little brain. I'm also not a chemical engineer, nor have I been reloading for 25 years, heck, English isn't even my first language. But I haven't read anything about anyone adding solvents to gunpowder.
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Old 10-11-2013, 6:18 PM
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You haven't lived until you see the day when some unknown chemical make-up in a box of perfectly good cartridges produces a chemical reaction with other nearby ammunition manufactured from different componets.

I was lucky. The results occurred within a few weeks and the results were limited to corrosion only. Who knows? Another week, month, year, ten years, a day, I'd had a fire instead of just a few duds, or just limited to corrosion.

Did I mention that I was lucky?
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