Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > POLITICS, LITIGATION AND ACTIVISM > California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-22-2008, 1:51 PM
STAGE 2 STAGE 2 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,867
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default Padilla convicted

MIAMI, Florida (AP) -- Jose Padilla, once accused of plotting with al Qaeda to blow up a radioactive "dirty bomb," was sentenced Tuesday to 17 years and four months on terrorism conspiracy charges.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/22/....ap/index.html


While Padilla should have recieved his day in court, I am relieved that I will no longer have to hear from any of those people who took the position of Padilla as "the wronged american". No longer is this terrorist (and yes he is much of a terrorist today as he was for the last several years despite the protests of several here) going to be a poster boy for criticism of this administration. The only americans snatched in the middle of the night are those that graduated from al quaeda university.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-22-2008, 2:24 PM
stag1500's Avatar
stag1500 stag1500 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 663
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by STAGE 2 View Post
The only americans snatched in the middle of the night are those that graduated from al quaeda university.
That's a pretty ignorant satement to make. Elián González was no terrorist when Janet Reno ordered the INS seize him and send him back to Cuba.
__________________
Achievement of your happiness is the only moral purpose of your life, and that happiness, not pain or mindless self-indulgence, is the proof of your moral integrity, since it is the proof and the result of your loyalty to the achievement of your values. -Ayn Rand
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-22-2008, 2:26 PM
Kestryll's Avatar
Kestryll Kestryll is offline
Head Janitor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Occupied Reseda, PRK
Posts: 20,965
iTrader: 22 / 100%
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Was Elian an American citizen?
__________________
NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA Life Member / SAF Life Member
Calguns.net an incorported entity - President.
The Calguns Shooting Sports Assoc. - Vice President.
The California Rifle & Pistol Assoc. - Director.
DONATE TO NRA-ILA, CGSSA, AND CRPAF NOW!
Opinions posted in this account are my own and unless specifically stated as such are not the approved position of Calguns.net, CGSSA or CRPA.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-22-2008, 2:35 PM
MrTuffPaws MrTuffPaws is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NorCal
Posts: 2,163
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Yes.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-22-2008, 2:38 PM
Davidk's Avatar
Davidk Davidk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 196
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

We should have hanged him.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-22-2008, 2:57 PM
Kestryll's Avatar
Kestryll Kestryll is offline
Head Janitor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Occupied Reseda, PRK
Posts: 20,965
iTrader: 22 / 100%
Blog Entries: 2
Default

It appears Elian was NOT a U.S. Citizen.
Sen. Mack tried to make him one by order of Congress but the bill was never voted on.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s106-1999
__________________
NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA Life Member / SAF Life Member
Calguns.net an incorported entity - President.
The Calguns Shooting Sports Assoc. - Vice President.
The California Rifle & Pistol Assoc. - Director.
DONATE TO NRA-ILA, CGSSA, AND CRPAF NOW!
Opinions posted in this account are my own and unless specifically stated as such are not the approved position of Calguns.net, CGSSA or CRPA.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-22-2008, 3:07 PM
STAGE 2 STAGE 2 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,867
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stag1500 View Post
That's a pretty ignorant satement to make. Elián González was no terrorist when Janet Reno ordered the INS seize him and send him back to Cuba.
Immigration has nothing to do with terrorism and the patriot act in as much as this discussion is concerned.

People were holding up Padilla as the quintessential case for this administrations abuses. While there were no doubt mistakes made with his detention and denial of his right to trial, at the end of the day, he was exactly what the administration said he was... a terrorist.

All the folks who have been whining that american citizens are disappearing left and right because of the governments new powers have always pointed to Padilla as their example, simply because he has been the only example.

While I agree that no american citizen should be denied their rights, I ain't going to lose any sleep over what happened to this guy.

Bottom line, if you don't want to run afoul of the government, don't attend any al quaeda training camps.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-22-2008, 6:17 PM
5968's Avatar
5968 5968 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,569
iTrader: 45 / 100%
Default

For terrorism, his sentence isn't nearly long enough.
__________________
If you loan someone twenty dollars and never see them again, it was probably worth it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
NFA is a long ways off as well it should be. Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...-Gene
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-22-2008, 6:19 PM
mvpatriot's Avatar
mvpatriot mvpatriot is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Corona Kalifornia
Posts: 2,211
iTrader: 51 / 100%
Default

In the good ol days he would have been shot for treason. A life sentence was definetly in order.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-22-2008, 6:52 PM
Solidmch's Avatar
Solidmch Solidmch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,344
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

So Fed time he will do 80%? So he will get out in 13 years with good behavior. Aready been in for 5 time served out in 8. He will be pissed off more than ever. They should have hanged him.

Elián González was illegal. His father wanted him home and we sent him. Child custody case.
__________________
Please spay or neuter your liberals.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-22-2008, 6:57 PM
pnkssbtz's Avatar
pnkssbtz pnkssbtz is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Oh R'lyeh?
Posts: 3,553
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidmch View Post
So Fed time he will do 80%? So he will get out in 13 years with good behavior. Aready been in for 5 time served out in 8. He will be pissed off more than ever. They should have hanged him.
You think he will survive in prison?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-22-2008, 7:42 PM
MrTuffPaws MrTuffPaws is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NorCal
Posts: 2,163
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

If only the feds charged him a held a trial off bat instead of illegally holding him without charges and a trial for years, I wouldn't have cared. But considering that they blatantly violated the constitution rights of a US citizen, it this pisses me off to no end.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-22-2008, 7:43 PM
MrTuffPaws MrTuffPaws is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NorCal
Posts: 2,163
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnkssbtz View Post
You think he will survive in prison?
it doesn't really matter. His incarceration pretty much made him bat **** crazy from what I hear.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-22-2008, 10:09 PM
JohnJW JohnJW is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 686
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTuffPaws View Post
it doesn't really matter. His incarceration pretty much made him bat **** crazy from what I hear.
Won't you go crazy if the government labels you as the mastermind of a dirty bomb plot, holds you in military prison for a few years without charging you, then convict you on some conspiracy charges that is completely unrelated to the dirty bombs they claim you were building.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-22-2008, 10:50 PM
STAGE 2 STAGE 2 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,867
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJW View Post
Won't you go crazy if the government labels you as the mastermind of a dirty bomb plot, holds you in military prison for a few years without charging you, then convict you on some conspiracy charges that is completely unrelated to the dirty bombs they claim you were building.
Not if I was innocent.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-23-2008, 11:12 AM
JohnJW JohnJW is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 686
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by STAGE 2 View Post
Not if I was innocent.
I'm glad to see that you still have absolute trust in our government.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-23-2008, 1:06 PM
STAGE 2 STAGE 2 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,867
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJW View Post
I'm glad to see that you still have absolute trust in our government.
Its not about absolute trust, its about common sense. I look at things with scrutiny. Others look at things with a predetermined view. Not everything the government does is bad.

This nonsense that the government is taking regular people off the streets is just that, nonsense. The only american citizen this has happened to is a guy who worked with al quaeda, trained with them in a foreign country, and came back here to form a cell. There is a really good argument there that he revoked his citizenship which kind of moots the detention issue.

However in either case, this is the kind of guy we want picked up and locked away (or shot).
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-24-2008, 9:29 AM
JohnJW JohnJW is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 686
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by STAGE 2 View Post
Its not about absolute trust, its about common sense. I look at things with scrutiny. Others look at things with a predetermined view. Not everything the government does is bad.

This nonsense that the government is taking regular people off the streets is just that, nonsense. The only american citizen this has happened to is a guy who worked with al quaeda, trained with them in a foreign country, and came back here to form a cell. There is a really good argument there that he revoked his citizenship which kind of moots the detention issue.

However in either case, this is the kind of guy we want picked up and locked away (or shot).

I'm quite surprised that, as a gun owner you have this attitude. What the government ended up convicting him of is very very different from what the government portray him out to be. I ask myself, after illegally imprisoning him for a few years this is all the government got on him? I rather our government release him after a few days if they can't find enough evidence to charge him and have surveillance him 24/7, if he indeed the sort of dirty bomb terrorist our government portray him out to be. Not on the same scale, but kind of remind me of the current AW/OLL mess. Reality turn out to be very different from government propaganda.

For me, the end will never justify the means. With Padilla, we traded away our Constitution for a two bit terrorist. Is it worth it? Let's not forget, our government supported Bin Laden back in the late 80s. Are we going to charge ourself with aiding terrorists? He was probably causing the same type of mayhem to the Soviets.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-24-2008, 10:35 AM
Ironchef Ironchef is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MT
Posts: 2,315
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Damn, still baffling to see Padilla considered as someone who was dangerous, let alone an actual terrorist. Sad, sad stuff our propaganda machine.

This is another example of our propaganda machine. This dude was 100% completely framed on many levels and from many high sources.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/09/23/air...nee/index.html
And yes, this was an American citizen, west point graduate, decorated and exemplary army chaplain...screwed because he didn't like what was happening to detainees at gitmo. Bagged him at the airport as he arrived home for leave, and whisked away somewhere for a while, stripped of rights, lambasted on the news...and oh yeah, completely and totally exonerated and released (but of course that wasn't published much at all).

James Yee story: http://www.samaralectures.com/jyee.html

Last edited by Ironchef; 01-24-2008 at 10:40 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-24-2008, 1:30 PM
STAGE 2 STAGE 2 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,867
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJW View Post
I'm quite surprised that, as a gun owner you have this attitude. What the government ended up convicting him of is very very different from what the government portray him out to be.
Because the rules of evidence prevented certian things from coming in doesn't change who or what he is. The fact that he was convicted WITHOUT a majority of his ties to al quaeda coming in should tell you exactly what Padilla was about.


Quote:
I ask myself, after illegally imprisoning him for a few years this is all the government got on him?
Again, you confuse procedural rules with actual evidence. Furthermore, what additional information could the government obtain while he was in custody? The crimes he committed had already been completed.


Quote:
I rather our government release him after a few days if they can't find enough evidence to charge him and have surveillance him 24/7, if he indeed the sort of dirty bomb terrorist our government portray him out to be.
The government HAD enough evidence to charge and convict. If they had let him go, he'd be gone.


Quote:
For me, the end will never justify the means. With Padilla, we traded away our Constitution for a two bit terrorist.
Quite the contrary. The constitution WORKED in this case. The governments position isn't as evil and authoritarian as you make it out to be. There is a very good case to be made that Padilla's actions revoked his citizenship. There is also a very good case to be made for treason.

Thus, there was a conflict between the executive and the individual. This conflict was resolved by the judiciary as it was supposed to be. Padilla recieved his trial and was properly convicted. The ENTIRE time he was in custody, he had access to the courts. This isn't the gulag tale that the media portrays it to be.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-24-2008, 1:35 PM
STAGE 2 STAGE 2 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,867
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironchef View Post
This is another example of our propaganda machine. This dude was 100% completely framed on many levels and from many high sources.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/09/23/air...nee/index.html
And yes, this was an American citizen, west point graduate, decorated and exemplary army chaplain...screwed because he didn't like what was happening to detainees at gitmo. Bagged him at the airport as he arrived home for leave, and whisked away somewhere for a while, stripped of rights, lambasted on the news...and oh yeah, completely and totally exonerated and released (but of course that wasn't published much at all).

James Yee story: http://www.samaralectures.com/jyee.html
Completely different. Part of signing up is agreeing to be held accountable by the UCMJ. As such, the conditions of arrest and detention are different than what applies to a regular citizen.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-24-2008, 3:04 PM
Ironchef Ironchef is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MT
Posts: 2,315
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by STAGE 2 View Post
Completely different. Part of signing up is agreeing to be held accountable by the UCMJ. As such, the conditions of arrest and detention are different than what applies to a regular citizen.
Yeah, if he were held to the standards of detention as prescribed in UCMJ, it'd be ok, but he wasn't. He was also tortured, not given counsel, etc. There was nothing lawful in the way he was detained and treated. It was a punishment, 100%.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-24-2008, 6:37 PM
STAGE 2 STAGE 2 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,867
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironchef View Post
Yeah, if he were held to the standards of detention as prescribed in UCMJ, it'd be ok, but he wasn't. He was also tortured, not given counsel, etc. There was nothing lawful in the way he was detained and treated. It was a punishment, 100%.
Do you have any unbiased evidence supporting this "torture" or is that just another code word being thrown around.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-24-2008, 9:11 PM
CALI-gula's Avatar
CALI-gula CALI-gula is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,945
iTrader: 27 / 100%
Default

Japanese Containment/Interment Camps during World War II - American Citizens illegal detained "for their safety"? Many lost their homes, properties, valuables, or were disconnected from loved ones. And it wasn't always just for the Japanese (check it out).

I don't think he is all that he was made out to be, nor do I think Iraq was all full of WMDs as they were made out to be. I'm not one to scream Kent State, Ruby Ridge, or Waco chants, I like and voted for Bush (both times), I do think Oliver North was/IS a great American, but there are many unjust applications to American citizens being done, now more than ever in the past 20 years, and there were definitely some wrongs here.

By the way, shouldn't this thread be in the off-topic section? I don't see any commas in the "2nd Amend. Politics and Laws" captioned header.

.

Last edited by CALI-gula; 01-24-2008 at 9:22 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-25-2008, 1:24 AM
JohnJW JohnJW is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 686
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by STAGE 2 View Post
Because the rules of evidence prevented certian things from coming in doesn't change who or what he is. The fact that he was convicted WITHOUT a majority of his ties to al quaeda coming in should tell you exactly what Padilla was about.

Again, you confuse procedural rules with actual evidence. Furthermore, what additional information could the government obtain while he was in custody? The crimes he committed had already been completed.
Again, the problem I have with this whole case is that our government trampled our Bill of Rights for a fairly weak case and a lot of back paddling,

From wikipedia:
"There is no mention in the indictment of Padilla's alleged plot to use a dirty bomb in the United States. There is also no mention that Padilla ever planned to stage any attacks inside the country. And there is no direct mention of Al-Qaeda. Instead the indictment lays out a case involving five men who helped raise money and recruit volunteers in the 1990s to go overseas to countries including Chechnya, Bosnia, Somalia and Kosovo. Padilla, in fact, appears to play a minor role in the conspiracy. He is accused of going to a jihad training camp in Afghanistan but his lawyers said the indictment offers no evidence he ever engaged in terrorist activity."

The source was cited as from "Democracy Now." I think Democracy Now is a very liberal radio program, but that seems to be consistent with what I've read on the case.


Quote:
The government HAD enough evidence to charge and convict. If they had let him go, he'd be gone.

Quite the contrary. The constitution WORKED in this case. The governments position isn't as evil and authoritarian as you make it out to be. There is a very good case to be made that Padilla's actions revoked his citizenship. There is also a very good case to be made for treason.

Thus, there was a conflict between the executive and the individual. This conflict was resolved by the judiciary as it was supposed to be. Padilla recieved his trial and was properly convicted. The ENTIRE time he was in custody, he had access to the courts. This isn't the gulag tale that the media portrays it to be.

You're kidding me right. Padilla was in a military prison from June 9,2002 to Nov 22, 2005 before he was indicted by a grand jury. Our Constitution worked? That's like saying the Second Amendment WORKS in California. C'mon, 2nd Amendment can't stand alone. I support both the NRA and the ACLU. Our politicians polarize us and force us to be either be a conservative or a liberal. The funny thing is, I think I am both and we should all be if we are interested in protecting our Constitution.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-25-2008, 9:37 AM
Ironchef Ironchef is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MT
Posts: 2,315
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by STAGE 2 View Post
Do you have any unbiased evidence supporting this "torture" or is that just another code word being thrown around.
The man who was tortured said he was. Having seen it used in Gitmo, it was easy to recognize when it happened to him. Do I really need to give an "unbiased" source? Is Jame's Yee completely lying about his ordeal? he's been touring the nation for a few years giving his complete story, specifying the abuse he suffered, it's in his book.. The burden of proof should not be on me anyway..the "innocent until proven guilty" theme should prevail.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-26-2008, 1:51 PM
STAGE 2 STAGE 2 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,867
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironchef View Post
The man who was tortured said he was. Having seen it used in Gitmo, it was easy to recognize when it happened to him. Do I really need to give an "unbiased" source? Is Jame's Yee completely lying about his ordeal? he's been touring the nation for a few years giving his complete story, specifying the abuse he suffered, it's in his book.. The burden of proof should not be on me anyway..the "innocent until proven guilty" theme should prevail.
By all accounts, there is nothing remotely close to torture going on in gitmo. Amnesty internation, doctors without borders, and the red cross have all (with utter disgust might I add) confirmed this. The only "incident" even close was that koran debacle which turned out to be false.

So, you will excuse me if I'm slightly skeptical about a muslim chaplain alleging torture and abuse when he himself has taken no legal action against the government.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-26-2008, 2:04 PM
STAGE 2 STAGE 2 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,867
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJW View Post
Again, the problem I have with this whole case is that our government trampled our Bill of Rights for a fairly weak case and a lot of back paddling,

From wikipedia:
"There is no mention in the indictment of Padilla's alleged plot to use a dirty bomb in the United States. There is also no mention that Padilla ever planned to stage any attacks inside the country. And there is no direct mention of Al-Qaeda. Instead the indictment lays out a case involving five men who helped raise money and recruit volunteers in the 1990s to go overseas to countries including Chechnya, Bosnia, Somalia and Kosovo. Padilla, in fact, appears to play a minor role in the conspiracy. He is accused of going to a jihad training camp in Afghanistan but his lawyers said the indictment offers no evidence he ever engaged in terrorist activity."
As a rule of thumb, ignore wikipedia when discussing all things legal. Is about as inaccurate and biased as sources get. This case is no exception.

Though I should note, a minor role in a conspiracy is still participating in a conspiracy. I find it cute that the author tries to mitigate what went on here (though I don't find anyone participating with al quaeda to be minor) but legally its irrelevant.


Quote:
The source was cited as from "Democracy Now." I think Democracy Now is a very liberal radio program, but that seems to be consistent with what I've read on the case.
See above.



Quote:
You're kidding me right. Padilla was in a military prison from June 9,2002 to Nov 22, 2005 before he was indicted by a grand jury. Our Constitution worked? That's like saying the Second Amendment WORKS in California. C'mon, 2nd Amendment can't stand alone. I support both the NRA and the ACLU. Our politicians polarize us and force us to be either be a conservative or a liberal. The funny thing is, I think I am both and we should all be if we are interested in protecting our Constitution.
Here's the deal. I expect my government to always follow the constitution. However, because a government is simply an organization of people I understand that because of human fallibility, greed, deceit, and sometimes honest disagreements, sometimes its going to go astray.

However the beauty and brilliance of our constitution is that it takes this into account and offers a pathway for resolving such issues. Thats exactly what happened here.

You see its really simple to say that Padilla was locked away for years without any rights, but thats not what happened in reality. Padilla was picked up May 8th, 2002 on a material witness warrant. By May 22nd...a mere two weeks later, by appointed counsel, he moved to VACATE that warrant, thereby starting the series of events that went up and down to the Supreme Court.

Even when the President directed that he be held as an enemy combatant (june 9th 2002) and he was taken into custody his atty, as his next friend (ex.rel.), filed a Habeaus petition TWO DAYS LATER which petition went up and down the Court system until finally he was tried and convicted.

So the net BS about him not having an attorney is a lie. The net BS about him being held and deprived of his legal rights was a lie. So the impression left that here was some poor soul held incommunicado while nobody did anyhting was a lie. He was represented by counsel from virtually the time he went into custody. At anytime the Court, on the application of his attorney, could have ordered him produced, could have ordered him transferred (which in fact the 2nd Cir did)...

And here is what the Supreme Court said....

"Padilla's argument reduces to a request for a new exception to the immediate custodian rule based upon the "unique facts" of this case. While Padilla's detention is undeniably unique in many respects, it is at bottom a simple challenge to physical custody imposed by the Executive--the traditional core of the Great Writ. There is no indication that there was any attempt to manipulate behind Padilla's transfer--he was taken to the same facility where other al Qaeda members were already being held, and the Government did not attempt to hide from Padilla's lawyer where it had taken him. Infra, at 20-21 and n. 17; post, at 5 (Kennedy, J., concurring). His detention is thus not unique in any way that would provide arguable basis for a departure from the immediate custodian rule. Accordingly, we hold that Commander Marr, not Secretary Rumsfeld, is Padilla's custodian and the proper respondent to his habeas petition."

So there you have it from the horses mouth. The government didn't secret this guy away or prevent him from seeing a lawyer. If they did, there would have never been a case and we would have had no idea who he was.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-26-2008, 3:01 PM
JohnJW JohnJW is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 686
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by STAGE 2 View Post
As a rule of thumb, ignore wikipedia when discussing all things legal. Is about as inaccurate and biased as sources get. This case is no exception.

Though I should note, a minor role in a conspiracy is still participating in a conspiracy. I find it cute that the author tries to mitigate what went on here (though I don't find anyone participating with al quaeda to be minor) but legally its irrelevant.
I actually find wikipedia quite useful. It just just a inaccurate and biased as any other news outlet with the exception that you get to view the source yourself.

Remember that a minor role in a "conspiracy" could be a simple posting on calguns. I don't know if Padilla was out for American blood, or if he was simply a naive person who believes in his religion and want wants to help out through charity, but whatever the case, it was not a dirty bomb plot as originally portrayed by our government as the basis for designating him as a "enemy combatant." That's what make it hard for some of us, who if given the opportunity will gladly put some of our hardware to bear on anyone trying to set off a dirty bomb in our cities, to accept our government's actions in this case.


Quote:
Here's the deal. I expect my government to always follow the constitution. However, because a government is simply an organization of people I understand that because of human fallibility, greed, deceit, and sometimes honest disagreements, sometimes its going to go astray.

However the beauty and brilliance of our constitution is that it takes this into account and offers a pathway for resolving such issues. Thats exactly what happened here.
That's a rather cheerful assessments of the current administration. I feel that I have less Constitutional protection today than 8 years ago, and I am a registered Republican.


Quote:
You see its really simple to say that Padilla was locked away for years without any rights, but thats not what happened in reality. Padilla was picked up May 8th, 2002 on a material witness warrant. By May 22nd...a mere two weeks later, by appointed counsel, he moved to VACATE that warrant, thereby starting the series of events that went up and down to the Supreme Court.

He was held in a military prison for 3+ years, most newspapers say he was in solitary confinement, maybe tortured. . . I mean harshly interrogated. This is the reality. Even if at the end they found a cache of radio active materials under his house I will still be more disturbed by the actions of our government more than the fact that someone was plotting to kill us. The fact that at the end he was convicted on a conspiracy charge unrelated to the reason why he was labeled as a "enemy combatant" only make the case worst for our civil liberties.


Quote:
So there you have it from the horses mouth. The government didn't secret this guy away or prevent him from seeing a lawyer. If they did, there would have never been a case and we would have had no idea who he was.
Fortunately that didn't happen to him, but it did happen to a lot of other innocent individuals under the current administration.

We probably won't agree on this subject but just remember the old saying, "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance" regardless of which of your least favorite party is in charge.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-26-2008, 3:08 PM
JohnJW JohnJW is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 686
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by STAGE 2 View Post
By all accounts, there is nothing remotely close to torture going on in gitmo. Amnesty internation, doctors without borders, and the red cross have all (with utter disgust might I add) confirmed this. The only "incident" even close was that koran debacle which turned out to be false.

So, you will excuse me if I'm slightly skeptical about a muslim chaplain alleging torture and abuse when he himself has taken no legal action against the government.
A West Point graduated chaplain. If you don't consider water boarding, solitary confinement, indefinite detention, being striped naked handcuffed hooded wearing a diaper on a TransAtlantic flight, as torture. . . well, what I can I say, . . . I hope we can all aspire to your level of physical and psychological confidence.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 01-26-2008, 10:13 PM
STAGE 2 STAGE 2 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,867
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJW View Post
A West Point graduated chaplain. If you don't consider water boarding, solitary confinement, indefinite detention, being striped naked handcuffed hooded wearing a diaper on a TransAtlantic flight, as torture. . . well, what I can I say, . . . I hope we can all aspire to your level of physical and psychological confidence.
Again, only he says that. Is there any other source to corroborate this?
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-26-2008, 10:21 PM
rue rue is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sacramento, CA.
Posts: 1,370
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJW View Post
Won't you go crazy if the government labels you as the mastermind of a dirty bomb plot, holds you in military prison for a few years without charging you, then convict you on some conspiracy charges that is completely unrelated to the dirty bombs they claim you were building.
oh noo....
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01-26-2008, 10:41 PM
STAGE 2 STAGE 2 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,867
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJW View Post
I actually find wikipedia quite useful. It just just a inaccurate and biased as any other news outlet with the exception that you get to view the source yourself.
Any source that allows ANYONE the ability to edit the information is automatically suspect at best.


Quote:
Remember that a minor role in a "conspiracy" could be a simple posting on calguns. I don't know if Padilla was out for American blood, or if he was simply a naive person who believes in his religion and want wants to help out through charity, but whatever the case, it was not a dirty bomb plot as originally portrayed by our government as the basis for designating him as a "enemy combatant." That's what make it hard for some of us, who if given the opportunity will gladly put some of our hardware to bear on anyone trying to set off a dirty bomb in our cities, to accept our government's actions in this case.
I don't consider a backpack full of thusands of dollars as well as a cell phone full of al quaeda contacts after taking a trip to the middle east "minor". Of course that is all irrelevant. Either a person is part of a conspiracy or not. You are making the same mistake as the author of that misguided piece in suggesting that people "happen" upon being involved in a conspiracy, or that how involved they are should be a factor in determining their guilt.

Thats not how this works. The elements of conspiracy require, among other things, an agreement between 2 or more people, and an overt act. even if Padilla's overt act was minimal, he agreed to the conspiracy. That means that he condoned and supported the actions of the guy who was doing most of the heavy lifting, or heinous acts. Thats why they are all held equally accountable.


Quote:
That's a rather cheerful assessments of the current administration. I feel that I have less Constitutional protection today than 8 years ago, and I am a registered Republican.
Well, if thats the case then it shouldn't be very difficult for you to tell me what you are now prevented from doing that you were free to do 8 years ago.



Quote:
He was held in a military prison for 3+ years, most newspapers say he was in solitary confinement
Whats the big deal about solitary? Last time I checked, no one had a fundamental right not to be held in solitary.

Quote:
maybe tortured. . . I mean harshly interrogated. This is the reality.
When people use words like "maybe" and "harshly" I tend to tune out. This is because that words like these are used in lieu of facts or hard evidence. If he was "maybe" tortured, then "maybe" I'll be outraged. Short of that I'll reserve judgment until something tangible comes in.



Quote:
Even if at the end they found a cache of radio active materials under his house I will still be more disturbed by the actions of our government more than the fact that someone was plotting to kill us. The fact that at the end he was convicted on a conspiracy charge unrelated to the reason why he was labeled as a "enemy combatant" only make the case worst for our civil liberties.
First, calling someone an enemy combatant in of itself, does not offend anything in the constitution. If you are suggesting otherwise, then please point me to the relevant section.

Secondly, you keep harping on the fact that he was only convicted on a conspiracy charge as if this is some gem. There are hundreds of reasons why this is the case, and none of them have anything to do with the government being evil. First, there is legal practicality. Its usually far easier to prove up conspiracy than the actual crime at issue. Add to that the fact that the sentence is almost the same and thats why its the preferred charge of prosecutors everywhere. Second, there are national security concerns. No doubt there are ongoing investigations connected with Padillas contacts, and airing out the necessary facts at trial could put such things at risk.

Finally, there is the problem with the media. This case has been beaten to death and been skewed by the press to paint the administration in the worst possible light. If Padilla was found not guilty by a jury because of how convoluted cases like this can be and how unpredictable juries are, the media would have had a field day with it. Rather than let the happen, they stuck with simple and convicted him. As a result, you didn't hear ANYTHING about this case from the usual haters. That more than anything else should tell you something.



Quote:
Fortunately that didn't happen to him, but it did happen to a lot of other innocent individuals under the current administration.
Names please.

Quote:
We probably won't agree on this subject but just remember the old saying, "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance" regardless of which of your least favorite party is in charge.
Exactly. And it was the vigilance of Padillas attorney that allowed the system to work in this case. As the supreme court said, there wasn't anything suspect with how the government handled Padilla. They had a legitimate argument with respect to him and lost. Thats the way the system works.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 01-27-2008, 7:31 PM
Ironchef Ironchef is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MT
Posts: 2,315
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by STAGE 2 View Post
Again, only he says that. Is there any other source to corroborate this?
I can't believe you need "proof!" lol THe dude has done NOTHING wrong. The burden of proof is not on him. He gains nothing from that small part of his total ordeal. Have you heard him speak? He's not some liberal scum from Berkeley who is out to sabotage the government. He was a good, honorable, decorated exemplary serviceman who while on leave on his way home from Gitmo, he was detained at Miami and whisked away violating pretty much every sacred right he was protecting with his service.

Nice "guilty until proven innocent" attitude there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stage2
By all accounts, there is nothing remotely close to torture going on in gitmo. Amnesty internation, doctors without borders, and the red cross have all (with utter disgust might I add) confirmed this. The only "incident" even close was that koran debacle which turned out to be false.
Got a citation? I've heard the opposite. I also work at a firm who has sprung several gitmo "kidnap" victims from that hole who have proved otherwise. Men and some kids simply kidnapped without a shred of evidence against them, held, denied basic civil rights, tortured, abused, etc...uncharged for years until freed by some pro-bono attorneys sick of the inaction of our government. Amnesty International, doctors without borders, red cross...you seriously think they got to see things as they really are? I'd also love to see your corroborated proof that they said it was torture free.

Last edited by Ironchef; 01-27-2008 at 7:37 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-27-2008, 7:49 PM
Blackflag Blackflag is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 453
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by STAGE 2 View Post
By all accounts, there is nothing remotely close to torture going on in gitmo. Amnesty internation, doctors without borders, and the red cross have all (with utter disgust might I add) confirmed this. The only "incident" even close was that koran debacle which turned out to be false.
. . .
As the supreme court said, there wasn't anything suspect with how the government handled Padilla.
You clearly aren't very knowledgeable about Padilla or Gitmo. First, multiple groups have cited torture in Gitmo. The FBI went public with a report on it, for ****'s sake.

Second, the Supreme Court sided with Padilla against the government. They didn't say it was "suspect," they flat-out said they were wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-27-2008, 7:56 PM
STAGE 2 STAGE 2 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,867
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironchef View Post
I can't believe you need "proof!" lol THe dude has done NOTHING wrong. The burden of proof is not on him. He gains nothing from that small part of his total ordeal. Have you heard him speak? He's not some liberal scum from Berkeley who is out to sabotage the government. He was a good, honorable, decorated exemplary serviceman who while on leave on his way home from Gitmo, he was detained at Miami and whisked away violating pretty much every sacred right he was protecting with his service.

Nice "guilty until proven innocent" attitude there.
Quite the contrary. This guy is alleging that the government tortured him. The government is the defendant here. A presumption of innocence applies to THEM not him.

In todays world, I don't take anything on simply the word of a single person. If everything that his guy alleges happened, then the government is ripe for a civil suit. The fact that this hasn't happened raises questions. If this happened to me then I'd be pissed and lawyering up.

So again I ask you, do you have anything to corroborate this guys story.


Quote:
Got a citation? I've heard the opposite. I also work at a firm who has sprung several gitmo "kidnap" victims from that hole who have proved otherwise. Men and some kids simply kidnapped without a shred of evidence against them, held, denied basic civil rights, tortured, abused, etc...uncharged for years until freed by some pro-bono attorneys sick of the inaction of our government. Amnesty International, doctors without borders, red cross...you seriously think they got to see things as they really are? I'd also love to see your corroborated proof that they said it was torture free.
Umm... yeah. Check with each of those organizations I just listed and read their reports. Furthermore, where is there any evidence of US citizens being held in gitmo? People being held there are foreign nationals captured in foreign countries. As such they have no civil rights.

But I am interested in these stories of people being taken in the dead of night. Are they american citizens? Were they arrested in america? If not, then don't bother because the constitution doesn't apply to them.

As far as torture goes, once again, there hasn't been a SINGLE credible instance of torture at gitmo. Maybe you'll be the first.

I'm still waiting for the names of those innocent americans you said are being held there.

Last edited by STAGE 2; 01-27-2008 at 8:00 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 01-27-2008, 7:58 PM
STAGE 2 STAGE 2 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,867
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackflag View Post
You clearly aren't very knowledgeable about Padilla or Gitmo. First, multiple groups have cited torture in Gitmo. The FBI went public with a report on it, for ****'s sake.
Then citing to these reports shouldn't be a problem.

Quote:
Second, the Supreme Court sided with Padilla against the government. They didn't say it was "suspect," they flat-out said they were wrong.
They sided with Padilla in that he should have a trial. They disagreed with his lawyers contention that there was some slight of hand, or trickery going on with the conditions of his detention.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 01-27-2008, 8:58 PM
Blackflag Blackflag is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 453
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by STAGE 2 View Post
Then citing to these reports shouldn't be a problem.



They sided with Padilla in that he should have a trial. They disagreed with his lawyers contention that there was some slight of hand, or trickery going on with the conditions of his detention.
1. Pick up a newspaper and stop asking people to do the work for you.

2. Again, go read the case. It's publicly available if you go look for it. The Court specifically said there was trickery going on when the government was moving him from jurisdiction to jurisdiction (NY to SC, etc.) to try and avoid the court. You're simply fabricating every assertion you make now.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 01-28-2008, 12:03 AM
JohnJW JohnJW is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 686
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rue View Post
oh noo....
As gun owners, we are pretty familiar with the standard government/media sensationalism then back peddling. Let's try something closer to home. Government takes your OLL, claiming that you are in possession of an illegal "assault weapon." Takes you guns, threatens you with prison. You cough up a few thousand/tens of thousand in legal fees to defend yourself.

The point is, we can not selectively condone unjust action by our government. Any transgression by our government on anyone's constitutional rights, regardless who that person is, is an assault on all of our civil liberties.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 01-28-2008, 1:17 AM
JohnJW JohnJW is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 686
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by STAGE 2 View Post
Any source that allows ANYONE the ability to edit the information is automatically suspect at best.
It's a bit ironic that you are attacking the merit of an open forum system, on <gasp> an open forum. By your own logic, all of your posts on calguns is "automatically suspect at best?"

If you think the current administration can do no wrong regarding our civil liberties, then there's nothing I can say to convince you of otherwise. The probability of Padilla being an innocent man wrongly convicted is quite low, however, the probability that his constitutional rights were violated by the "enemy combatant" label followed by the lengthy military detention is very very high.

For your reading enjoyment, maybe you want to look up the following,

Patriot Act - My public library now has a clause in its library card application stating that the government can access your library records without your consent or your knowledge. I never thought one day the government will know more about the books I read than the type of guns I have.

NSA warrantless surveillance

Extraordinary rendition (Khaled Masri, Maher Arar)

Waterboarding, there's a article in Washington Post regarding its use by the CIA and some destroyed interrogation tape, but then you may consider it to be another liberal media propaganda.

"Maybe" you'll be outraged after looking in to the above articles because there is strong evidence and even some admission that in this war on terror, our government ignores the Constitution, tortures, contracts out torturing, and sometimes on innocent victims.

As a reminder, 2A is a part of this thing call the Bill of Rights. Base on your comments,
Quote:
So, you will excuse me if I'm slightly skeptical about a muslim chaplain alleging torture and abuse when he himself has taken no legal action against the government.
You may want to read the 1A. Muslim chaplain? So what?
Along with 9A. Lack of legal action means what?
Quote:
Whats the big deal about solitary? Last time I checked, no one had a fundamental right not to be held in solitary.
Try the 8A, followed by 6A, unless 3 years is consider "speedy", then 5A.

There are countries that has simplified Bill of Rights containing only the 2A, but human lives seem not to worth much in those countries.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 8:12 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.