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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 01-20-2008, 2:01 AM
Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Default Concealed Carry on Private Property

I live inside a court that is privately owned by our landlord. The road, the building, everything, is maintained solely by the owner of the property. One side has multiple 2 story townhouses (about 8) and the other side has 1 story houses (about 6 or 7). There's only one entrance from the street.

Anyways, what I'm trying to see is if, while on this property I could concealed carry loaded or even open carry loaded while outside of my own townhouse on the rest of the private property? This isn't something I've attempted nor advocated, this is more for hypotheticals.

If outright it is a no. What if I had written permission from the land owner to concealed carry or open carry loaded, would I then be allowed to legally?

I know there had been some rulings in the past regarding an apartment complex's neutral areas, but since this isn't an apartment complex, I was curious if it worked differently.

Anyways, just curious about some insight in this.

Thanks guys.
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Old 01-20-2008, 2:06 AM
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I'm almost positive you can't carry (open or concealed) outside your own personal property, even if it is still privately owned by your landlord. So for your case, you wouldn't be able to carry outside your townhouse.

However, things might be different if you got permission from your landlord. I have no experience with this, so I won't comment on it . . .
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Old 01-20-2008, 2:37 AM
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If the owner of the private property explicitly gives you permission then I dont see what law you would be breaking. The crux of illegality in regards to common areas of apartment complexes..etc..etc, is that explicit permission was not given and the legal protections that one would have in their personal dwelling do not automatically include those common areas.

The situation you describe is not unlike a private business owner giving you permission to carry concealed. You did say the landlord and the property owner were one in the same...correct?

One thing the property owner may want to consider is the liability should you do something illegal/actionable with the gun he gave you permission to carry outside of your personal dwelling.
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Old 01-20-2008, 3:23 AM
Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Originally Posted by FreedomIsNotFree View Post
If the owner of the private property explicitly gives you permission then I dont see what law you would be breaking. The crux of illegality in regards to common areas of apartment complexes..etc..etc, is that explicit permission was not given and the legal protections that one would have in their personal dwelling do not automatically include those common areas.

The situation you describe is not unlike a private business owner giving you permission to carry concealed. You did say the landlord and the property owner were one in the same...correct?

One thing the property owner may want to consider is the liability should you do something illegal/actionable with the gun he gave you permission to carry outside of your personal dwelling.

If the permission to allow me to carry explicity said I was liable for whatever actions I took with the weapon and the property owner was not liable, would that help negate that issue?
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Old 01-20-2008, 5:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
If the permission to allow me to carry explicity said I was liable for whatever actions I took with the weapon and the property owner was not liable, would that help negate that issue?
You are going to want to consult an attorney for any legal advice. In my opinion, the property owner could still be sued and held for damages...your agreement would mean you would be responsible for the costs, but that is a separate issue. Unless you have quite a bit in the bank I wouldn't think it would be a good risk for the property owner.
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Last edited by FreedomIsNotFree; 01-20-2008 at 5:54 AM..
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Old 01-20-2008, 7:41 AM
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That real estate which you pay rent for, is considered your property under legal obligations. Carry inside the townhouse, absolutely. If you also have a fenced private yard, absolutely. The driveway and sidewalk are a very dark gray area, as those are also public accessible.

My wife has been a property manager for 20 years.
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Old 01-20-2008, 8:06 AM
1911A-1Fan 1911A-1Fan is offline
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What if you live in a condo that you own - what about the condo common areas?

To add to your fun, would it make a difference if the common areas are deeded to an association of which every owner is a member, or if each owner has an undivided "deeded" interest in the common area?

And for further fun, does it make a difference if the common area is labeled private residential, vs. past the gate (the parking structure) but still owned by the association?

Finally, instead of schlepping the pistol (unloaded, in locked container) from my unit to my car, which is in my deeded parking spot, can I just leave it overnight in the car?

I wonder about the right to carry a pistol while investigating noises and intruders at the project - the police have gotten tired of coming out to investigate false alarms. I THINK but I'm not sure that open carry would be ok, but that would stress us all out more than concealed carry, within the confines of the condo's land.
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Old 01-20-2008, 8:32 AM
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I don't see a difference if you're carrying (concealed or open) and that of hiring an armed Security Guard. Hmm the mess of CA laws?

I walk into our rental office with a gun openly displayed every few days or so to talk to the apt. manager.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
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  #9  
Old 01-20-2008, 8:59 AM
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Read: People v. Overturf

In essence, you can carry a LOADED firearm on your private property only in areas which are not accessible by the public. Those areas which are "accessible" are the common areas of multiple housing units, or unfenced areas, or the driveway, etc. If people can get onto your property without going through a gate or being invited, it's "accessible".

You can carry concealed or openly on your property. This means only in the non public areas.

Under the Penal code is it NOT illegal to carry an UNLOADED weapon in public so long as it is visible and in a belt holster. DO NOT carry it concealed even in the common areas.

All you have to do is think about the rules and plan accordingly.
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Old 01-20-2008, 10:58 AM
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First of all, the other posts are on-target with regards to defining "public" vs. "private" areas on a condo/townhome complex. Any area that is designated as a common-area and maintained by the complex or it's association will be considered "public spaces".

Typical common-areas include unfenced grassy areas, landscaped areas, walkways, pools, recreation rooms, streets, sidewalks and common driveways/garage access areas.

Police and prosecutors will consider this "public space", even if your community is gated with limited access.

As to obtaining permission - first good luck. The owner of the property may give you permission, but he can then be held civilly liable if you do something stupid or illegal. His pockets are likely much deeper than yours since he owns all that developed property. If he "hires" you to do any job, then you are his employee and it creates a liability issue.

Do not allow him to hire you as "security" as you will then need to obtain state permits as a security guard and jump through the hoops to carry a firearm.
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Old 01-20-2008, 1:18 PM
JALLEN JALLEN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
If the permission to allow me to carry explicity said I was liable for whatever actions I took with the weapon and the property owner was not liable, would that help negate that issue?
No. The landlord is liable for injuries on the property under the usual rules, and cannot rid himself of it by agreement. He may be indemnified by you, but that is a poor bet unless you are very, very wealthy and certain to remain so.
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  #12  
Old 01-20-2008, 6:13 PM
Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Originally Posted by JALLEN View Post
No. The landlord is liable for injuries on the property under the usual rules, and cannot rid himself of it by agreement. He may be indemnified by you, but that is a poor bet unless you are very, very wealthy and certain to remain so.
Meh, I hate stupid california.

Since open carry unloaded is legal regardless, I know this part has been covered by people pretty extensively. If I open carry unloaded with the mag in a belt pouch, that's not loaded under People v. Clark, correct? Which is current precedent, right?

Thanks guys - I'm just trying to look at it from all the angles, but refuse to do the things that will put me in legal jeopardy.
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Old 01-20-2008, 10:27 PM
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for tresspassing, the law says you need
a sign stating its private property every 500 feet,
so even if it isn't fenced off, you can be arrested for trespassing
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Old 01-21-2008, 12:24 AM
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This does not stop you from coming, armed, to the immediate aid of anyone that is not on your actual property. Arson, rape, sodomy, murder, are all deadly force allowed crimes, IF you see it in progress. Do not shoot AFTER the fact.
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Old 01-22-2008, 1:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob P. View Post
Those areas which are "accessible" are the common areas of multiple housing units, or unfenced areas, or the driveway, etc. If people can get onto your property without going through a gate or being invited, it's "accessible".

You can carry concealed or openly on your property. This means only in the non public areas.
Just to clarify on "accessible" - Does this equally apply to a single family home, thus not a multi-unit, whereby the person is on their front yard or front porch?
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Old 01-22-2008, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Army View Post
This does not stop you from coming, armed, to the immediate aid of anyone that is not on your actual property. Arson, rape, sodomy, murder, are all deadly force allowed crimes, IF you see it in progress. Do not shoot AFTER the fact.
So if you are sitting on your balcony and see someone being raped/sodomized/murdered/committing arson you can grab a firearm and ventilate them?? Although I do agree that it should be that way, it doesn't sound correct based on what I have heard/read. I thought in CA you have to prove that you were in fear for your life and were without an escape route??

Can someone clarify?
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Old 01-22-2008, 3:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odysseus View Post
Just to clarify on "accessible" - Does this equally apply to a single family home, thus not a multi-unit, whereby the person is on their front yard or front porch?
When talking about a single family home "accessible" means the driveway and any area of the yard not fenced AND gated. If the mailman can get to it, it's "accessible".

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Originally Posted by AfricanHunter View Post
So if you are sitting on your balcony and see someone being raped/sodomized/murdered/committing arson you can grab a firearm and ventilate them?? Although I do agree that it should be that way, it doesn't sound correct based on what I have heard/read. I thought in CA you have to prove that you were in fear for your life and were without an escape route??

Can someone clarify?
Fear of your own safety OR to protect the life of someone else. There's a book, "How to own a gun in Ca and stay out of jail." Buy it and read it.
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