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  #1  
Old 01-17-2008, 6:49 AM
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Default Norinco 982 870 Copy VS. Remington 870 Express HD

The Norinco 982 Tactical vs the Express 870 HD. Norinco 870 $189 retail most places. Remington 870 Express HD $299 retail when not on special.

The Norinco 870 shotguns have been imported into the US for almost 10 years now.

In my opinion of the Norinco 870 is a step above the Express 870 HD at a much better price. It is a improved version of the 870 for tactical purposes. The reasons why is laid out in a list below. I would like to hear your opinions on the two guns. Please leave "The China argument" out of the discussion. Please state at the beginning of your post if you have ever owned one of the Norinco 870 shotguns. That includes the Marlin NEF Pardner Pump which is also made by Norinco and imported by Hawk Ind. I and others would like to hear your thoughts. Feel free to post your own pictures of your Norinco 870.

My Review of the Norinco 870 it's advantages over 870 Express HD:


The 870 Express cost about twice as much and three time if it came with GRS and metal trigger guard.

A smooth action on my gun from the get go. I did some more minor polishing to smooth it more. The action on most Express are rough.

It has a machined extractor and ejector compared to the MIM parts on the Express

It has an metal trigger guard. Plastic on the Express

The ghost ring sights are excellent, much better than a bead in my opinion and much better GRS than you find on a 870. A good set of GRS will cost you almost as much as the Norinco 870.

The shell carrier/lifter is non slotted but if a shell is released between the lifter and the bolt, it will still feed smoothly without smacking the butt on the ground. This might be due to a slightly different lifter shape (?).

It is parkerized, not "rough" blued like the Express. It is a good looking SG. Fit is about the same on both guns.

It is very reliable it will feed cheap ammo that some Express wonít

The barrel locking lug is in a better location. Being higher up it allows for a mount to be added above the fore end to mount accessories. When you add a mount on the tube extension of a Express it has the be removed each time you break down the shotgun, which is a pain. If you add a magazine tube extension like the one in the picture it is a stronger setup because it is shorter.

With a magazine tube extension on the Norinco 18.5" barrel you get 7+1 capacity, without 5+1. Remington 870 with a 18" barrel you only get 6+1 with a tube ext and 4+1 without.

Both shotguns have mag tube dimples and they have to be drilled out before you can use a tube ext.

All Remington 870 accessories will fit it and there are plenty available. Some may need to be modified a little to fit.

Quality steel on both guns. The steel on the Norinco does seem to rust easier. I believe itís because of the high carbon content.

This shotgun has a 14" LOP, Cylinder Choke measures 0.725", 18.5" barrel OD @ muzzle 0.860", wall thickness @ muzzle 0.067", 7+1 capacity with mag tube extension. Rounds put through the review gun around 3000 over 4 years not a single FTF with all types of ammo.

My conclusion is, I believe it is a improved version of the 870 for tactical purposes. This is the best deal to be had in a Tactical shotgun anywhere.


Here is a picture of my Norinco 870 limited tactical model. It came with GRS, heat shield and a tactical speed fore end. I added a Vang tactical big head speed safety, a mag tube extension that I make for these shotguns, Laserlyte Tri-Rail mount, replaced the flat head screws that hold the rear GRS with better hex head screws and coated the shotgun with non rust ceramic paint which is very durable, more durable than a parkerize finish. I have owned it for 4 years and put it through Hell. It is a great gun.



This is the Norinco 982 shotgun that is being imported into the US and being sold here now. It has a 7+1 mag tube extension not included.




Here is a picture of the Norinco made NEF Pardner Pump Protector with a +2 magazine tube extension. Marlin NEF and H&R are now owned by Remington.








GC

Last edited by MAX100; 08-17-2009 at 2:41 PM..
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  #2  
Old 01-17-2008, 7:55 AM
1911A-1Fan 1911A-1Fan is offline
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Works for the People's Republic Army, should work for us. Seriously. But I though Norinco was banned from the US due to some trade dispute?

If not, maybe we'll see some of those cool .45 knockoffs too.

BTW, the two funniest "Red China" things I ever saw were:

1. Cigarette lighters in Beijing with Mao's face on them - hey, he killed enough Chinese during his reign, he might as well keep on rolling via cigarettes. (They DO love their dictators over there, you don't see Nixon lighters over here.)

2. A picture of Mao in in my (white) friend's house in his den. His mainland Chinese wife insisted on having a picture of what modern Chinese (at least the ones from the mainland) seem to view as the George Washington of their country in their house. He obliged to keep the peace.

Trust me, sometimes there are big cultural disconnects and all you can do is smile.
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Old 01-17-2008, 8:10 AM
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I've had both! However still have one... The Norinco....Bought the Norinco cause i needed a Home Def. gun but little $$ at the time..ended up buying a 870 later down the road...ended up getting rid of the 870 for a Benelli M4 (Definetly an upgrade from the 870)..Over all both were good pieces...I did like the ghost ring over the bead..to me the action was smoother with the 870 however as Max said the finish wasn't all that on the 870..kept the norinco because it was my first 12 guage..I still beat the hell out of it now and then at the range and it holds up to the punishment!!! It will shoot anything you feed it..the barrel does get extra hot compared to the 870 when repeated slugs and sent down the pipe...but overall I like my Norinco...I will post pics of it later....Only mods I've done was a Speedfed stock (which I plan on replacing with a adjustable stock) 6 shot side saddle and a Cheap flashlight and tape switch for things that go bump in the night!
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  #4  
Old 01-17-2008, 9:39 AM
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1911A-1Fan It could happen.


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Last edited by MAX100; 01-17-2008 at 10:17 AM..
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  #5  
Old 01-17-2008, 3:28 PM
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Where do you find Norinco stuff at?
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  #6  
Old 01-17-2008, 4:23 PM
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Big 5 had some similar to mine on sale for $179. Buds Gun Shope has a few. If you do some searching on the web I am sure you will come up with one. Big 5 has website. They have been for sale in the US for almost 10 years.

Buds Gun Shop Norinco Link:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/91401

I make the mag tube extensions for them.


GC

Last edited by MAX100; 01-17-2008 at 4:26 PM..
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  #7  
Old 01-17-2008, 4:42 PM
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I think there's a clean used 870 clone sitting at Martin B Rettings for $150.
If I remember correctly, it has ghost ring sights too.
I almost bought it as a gift for a buddy so he would have a shotgun...
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  #8  
Old 01-17-2008, 4:50 PM
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I bought 1 from Big 5. It has over 500 rounds of 3 inch mags thru it and works great. I just need to find a slug barrel for it. Any suggestions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX100 View Post
Big 5 had some similar to mine on sale for $179. Buds Gun Shope has a few. If you do some searching on the web I am sure you will come up with one. Big 5 has website. They have been for sale in the US for almost 10 years.

Buds Gun Shop Norinco Link:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/91401

I make the mag tube extensions for them.


GC
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  #9  
Old 01-17-2008, 4:59 PM
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Call NEF their Pardner pump shotgun barrels will fit your Norinco. The Pardner pump is made by Norinco. Their 22" slug barrels with rifles sights run around $100.


GC

Last edited by MAX100; 01-17-2008 at 5:04 PM..
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  #10  
Old 01-17-2008, 6:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frigginchi View Post
I bought 1 from Big 5. It has over 500 rounds of 3 inch mags thru it and works great. I just need to find a slug barrel for it. Any suggestions?
I've never seen Norinco shotgun @ Big5, the only ones I see there are Mossberg, and Remington. Which Big 5 did u find the Norks at?
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  #11  
Old 01-17-2008, 6:46 PM
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Here it is on their website.

Big 5 Norinco 870 Link:
http://big5sportinggoods.shoplocal.c...97252&offerid=


GC
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Old 01-17-2008, 7:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX100 View Post
Here it is on their website.

Big 5 Norinco 870 Link:
http://big5sportinggoods.shoplocal.c...97252&offerid=


GC
thanks for the link, it looks like the offer is expired. do big 5 normally carry the norinco shotguns? do you see them on sale often?
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  #13  
Old 01-17-2008, 7:18 PM
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I would never get the Norc 870 clone because it isn't. You could buy a norc 1911 because this was made more true to the original and other off brand parts fit. The shotgun is a design adaptation and not a clone. A true 870 clone would have value.

Pretty much literally, a 2007 Remington 870 can accept 1957 Remington 870 parts. That, besides the toughness factor, is the real reason for the 870's success.
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Old 01-17-2008, 8:19 PM
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I have the Norinco 98 from Big 5. It works great. I bought it because it had the sights. I think I got mine on sale a few years ago for $130.

I think it is now called the Interstate Hawk M982.

Quick google found this. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9163
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  #15  
Old 01-17-2008, 8:47 PM
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Is this the same thing as the Norinco 98 (870 clone)
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/prod...ucts_id=104121

I know Big5 has these in sale every now and then....but I havent had the time to see them up close. And by being an 870 clone, I can interchange 870 barrel/stock/forearm/parts???
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Old 01-17-2008, 9:16 PM
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I bought a Norinco 98 from a Big 5 in So. Cal several years ago because it was only $150. I finally shot it early last year. Functions and feels like my 40 year old 870 Wingmaster. Doesn't shoot to the same point of impact, but that's probably because the tube on the 870 is 8 inches longer and choked differently.

I lost my ghost ring sight during a 2-gun match. I have no idea when or where it fell off, which actually turns out to be OK since i didn't really like it that much after I started shooting with it.

Overall, the Norinco is a good gun. Works for me.
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Old 01-17-2008, 9:22 PM
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I saw this thread and since i'm looking for a beater/HD shotgun I thought I would check big5.

After doing a little google search its seems that the "INTERSTATE ‘HAWK’ 12-GA. PUMP SHOTGUN" on sale for 179.99 at Big 5 is just a rebadged Norinco 982
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Old 01-17-2008, 9:34 PM
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I'm a total Shotgun Newb...

You need a "slug barrel" in order to shoot slugs? What are the benefits of this?
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  #19  
Old 01-17-2008, 10:31 PM
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better accuracy out to 100 yards with sabots

Quote:
Originally Posted by xs2k View Post
I'm a total Shotgun Newb...

You need a "slug barrel" in order to shoot slugs? What are the benefits of this?
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  #20  
Old 01-17-2008, 10:43 PM
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The screws that hold the ghost ring rear sights on are flat head screws and they are hard to tighten and they strip easy. I replaced the screws on my Norinco 870 with Hex Head screws. They look nice and hold the rear sight well. Easy fix! To many people sweat the simple things.

xs2k You don't need a slug barrel to shoot slugs. Just buy rifled slugs that are for smooth bore barrel shotguns only. The sabots non rifled slugs are for rifled slug barrels only. You will get a little better accuracy with the rifled barrel but not that much.

870 Barrels will not work on the Norinco 870, only accessories (stocks and such), not metal parts.

Mike100 The reason to buy a Norinco 870 is because it is not a clone of the 870. It is a improvement of the 870 design. Read my review again. It is more durable than the 870 Express. I will say it again, Read my review.


GC

Last edited by MAX100; 01-18-2008 at 11:01 AM..
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Old 01-17-2008, 10:48 PM
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^^^Thanks for the clarification, that's what I thought too.
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  #22  
Old 01-17-2008, 10:52 PM
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Non-responsive perhaps...but I'd rather have a Norinco Model 1897 than any other Norinco shotgun...
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  #23  
Old 01-18-2008, 9:01 AM
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^Is that the lever action one or the "trench gun"
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/C...t_Shotgun.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX100 View Post
Call NEF their Pardner pump shotgun barrels will fit your Norinco. The Pardner pump is made by Norinco. Their 22" slug barrels with rifles sights run around $100.
GC
So the barrels from NEF fit on the Norinco/IAC 870? I ask this because im a college kid on a budget wanting a shotgun for HD too so this norinco fits the bill.

-Vinny

Last edited by vinny_land; 01-18-2008 at 9:07 AM..
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  #24  
Old 01-18-2008, 9:55 AM
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That are both made in China by Norinco. They should fit. Everything is the same but the Pardner Pump has a different looking receiver per Marlin NEF specs. The Pradner Pump Protector HD is an excellent shotgun also if you want just a bead sight. I make the mag tube ext for the Norinco 870 shotguns. These tube Extensions are not available anywhere else.


GC

Last edited by MAX100; 01-18-2008 at 9:57 AM..
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX100 View Post
Mike100 The reason to buy a Norinco 870 is because it is not a clone of the 870. It is a improvement of the 870 design. Read my review again. It has more toughnest factor than the 870 Express. I will say it again, Read my review.
It sounds like a pretty decent shotgun, especially for the price. I think I might have to pick one up, just for giggles.

However, I don't think I'll be getting rid of my 870s any time soon.

-- Michael
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX100 View Post
That are both made in China by Norinco. They should fit. Everything is the same but the Pardner Pump has a different looking receiver per Marlin NEF specs. The Pradner Pump Protector HD is an excellent shotgun also if you want just a bead sight. I make the mag tube ext for the Norinco 870 shotguns. These tube Extensions are not available anywhere else.GC
So mag tube extensions for the 870 wont fit on the norinco/IAC 982? Also does the norinco model have the infamous dimples too?
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:20 AM
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These norincos sound like a good deal. I probably will have to go out and try it myself. Big5 doesnt have them on sale right now but hopefully they will this Sunday.
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Old 01-18-2008, 11:06 AM
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They do have the dimples that will have to be drilled out. The 870 mag tube ext will fit the Norinco 870 but they will be to long because the barrel locking lug is located lower on the Remington 870.

GC
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Old 01-19-2008, 2:51 AM
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I'd spend the extra and get the remington, if for no other reason it's american.
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Old 01-19-2008, 6:02 AM
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I say send less and get a better and improved gun for tactical purposes. It's low cost and you don't have worry about it. Excellent gun to start with for customizing.


GC
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Old 01-19-2008, 6:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX100 View Post
The Norinco 982 Tactical vs the Express 870 HD. Norinco 870 $189 retail most places. Remington 870 Express HD $299 retail when not on special.
Well for starts there are several million used 870 that you can buy for $189. They don't wear out, period...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX100 View Post
Please leave "The China argument" out of the discussion. Please state at the beginning of your post if you have ever owned one of the Norinco 870 shotguns.
Why should I leave the "Made In China" argument out? You bought a chinese over American, nuff said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX100 View Post
A smooth action on my gun from the get go. I did some more minor polishing to smooth it more. The action on most Express are rough.
Not rough.......its called tight and anyone that's had a good pump nows that they get better with use, slick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX100 View Post
It is very reliable it will feed cheap ammo that some Express won’t
TOTAL BS and you know it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX100 View Post
With a magazine tube extension on the Norinco 18.5" barrel you get 7+1 capacity. You only get 6+1 with the 18" barrel 870.
You can buy inexpensive used 870's and barrels, not exactly difficult to cut a barrel to what ever lengthe you want, and buy what ever capacity mag tube extension you want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX100 View Post
Quality steel on both guns. The steel on the Norinco does seem to rust easier. I believe it’s because of the high carbon content.
Are you a metalurgist or did you just make this part up? Gee, rusting guns, no that's not a big deal at all, right....dude. Must be that good parkerized finish


Sounds like you have spent way to much time trying to justify your purchase of a cheap gun and you're worried about people think. Well you know what I think






GC[/quote]
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  #32  
Old 01-19-2008, 7:36 AM
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Why do you have to go negative, tankerman. You have obviously never owned a Norinco 870 which you fail to mention. My review speaks for itself and I stand by it. If you are happy with your Remington 870 stick with it. I don't don't think anyone is going to sale all of their Remingtons to buy a Norinco. In fact, with the cost of the Norinco you can have both.

My suggestion to you is buy a Norinco 870 and get some experience on the subject, do your on review and post it here on Calguns. I and many others would like to read it. You know if you have never own the gun in subject, and haven't experience it, you won't know what you are talking. An accurate review can't be done just by looking at pictures or by holding one in a store.

I don't have to justify my purchase of the Norinco 870, I am a FFL Dealer in South Carolina and can basically just about have any gun I want. I like the Norinco and what it offers.

Thanks for posting another picture of my Norinco 870. Nice looking gun isn't it?


GC

Last edited by MAX100; 01-19-2008 at 8:58 AM..
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Old 01-19-2008, 8:29 AM
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I agree with a couple of other member's opinion here - there is not much significant reason to bypass the USA made Remington for the Chicom Norinco in this case. Why contribute more to not only the huge trade imbalance, but a government that has serious human rights issues and occasionally threats this country with military action? Plus, they supply weapons to those that are actively trying to kill our troops.

I looked at both about this time last year and choose the Remington for the above reasons and that to me, it appeared to be the better, quality-wise.
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Last edited by stator; 01-19-2008 at 8:32 AM..
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Old 01-19-2008, 8:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tankerman View Post
Why should I leave the "Made In China" argument out? You bought a chinese over American, nuff said.








GC
[/QUOTE]

how do you live your everyday life tankerman if you do not buy anything that's made in China? just about everything in wallmart and most stores are made in China now adays, and if it's not made in China then it's made in Pakistan, Indian, Indonisia or some other third world country.

Being patriotic is one thing we all are, but being plain ignorant is quiet another. Doesn't matter if you like it or not, GLOBALIZATION is happening and it's not a matter where the product is made now adays but a matter of where it can be made the cheapest. In fact not only product, services and jobs are the same way. 80% of computer IT are outsourced and mainly to India, 50% of civil engineering jobs are out sourced mainly to Indian and China while 25% of accounting jobs are also out sourced to these countries and these are all "American Jobs".
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Old 01-19-2008, 8:58 AM
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I am not tankerman, but I will answer your questions since those seem applicable to my post above?

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Originally Posted by neomentat View Post

how do you live your everyday life tankerman if you do not buy anything that's made in China? just about everything in wallmart and most stores are made in China now adays, and if it's not made in China then it's made in Pakistan, Indian, Indonisia or some other third world country.
It is easier done than said, imo. It is also extremely easy when purchasing firearms. Here is my purchase in the last year:

Shotguns
1- Remington 870 Express (made in USA)
2- Beretta 391 (made in Italy)
3- Mossberg Silver Reserve (made in Pakastan)
4- Remington Sporting 410 (made in USA)
5- Remington Sporting 20 (made in USA)

Rifles
1- Lauer OLL (made in USA)
2- Lauer OLL (made in USA)
3- Doublestar OLL (made in USA)
4- Several NDS lowers (made in USA)
5- Ruger 10/22 (made in USA and had to check in my beliefs at the door due to Bill R.)

Parts
1- RRA parts Kit (made in USA)
2- Noveske upper (made in USA)
3- Numerous LaRue Tactical products (made in USA)
4- Several Daniels Defense products (made in USA)
5- Prince 50 kits (made in USA)
6- Bullet Button kits (made in USA)
7- Buckmaster Scope (made in Philipines)

So there you go, not one product from China to answer your question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neomentat View Post
Being patriotic is one thing we all are, but being plain ignorant is quiet
another.
How can a consumer not willing to support a country who threats us militarily, and supports through arms sales to our enemies that are actively trying to kill our troops as we type in calguns, be called ignorant? If that is tankerman's reason for not buying a Chicom product, then I commend him for being a patriot who is not ignorant of the issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neomentat View Post
Doesn't matter if you like it or not, GLOBALIZATION is happening and it's not a matter where the product is made now adays but a matter of where it can be made the cheapest. In fact not only product, services and jobs are the same way. 80% of computer IT are outsourced and mainly to India, 50% of civil engineering jobs are out sourced mainly to Indian and China while 25% of accounting jobs are also out sourced to these countries and these are all "American Jobs".
I hate to ask where you obtained those numbers, but I suspect it is your gut feel.
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Last edited by stator; 01-19-2008 at 9:01 AM..
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Old 01-19-2008, 9:09 AM
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My review of the two guns is right on that is why some of you turned the discussion to China. If the truth doesn't go your way and you can't debate the issues, some will turn them in a different direction.

GC

Last edited by MAX100; 01-19-2008 at 9:12 AM..
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Old 01-19-2008, 9:14 AM
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I can see the pro-norc argument. I have an inexpensive (read cheaply made by turkish muslims) Huglu/CZ autoloader that shoots really well and I like it for the same reasons you like the norinco. I do worry about getting parts in 10 years and I am hesitant to buy anything that might end up being disposable. You really wouldn't have to worry about that with remington or beretta etc.


The 870 is like buying cars by ford and GM. They might not be the best, but you can go to any junk yard and get the door handle of any model and it will work on your car.
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Old 01-19-2008, 9:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stator View Post
It is easier done than said, imo. It is also extremely easy when purchasing firearms. Here is my purchase in the last year:

Shotguns
1- Remington 870 Express (made in USA)
2- Beretta 391 (made in Italy)
3- Mossberg Silver Reserve (made in Pakastan)
4- Remington Sporting 410 (made in USA)
5- Remington Sporting 20 (made in USA)

Rifles
1- Lauer OLL (made in USA)
2- Lauer OLL (made in USA)
3- Doublestar OLL (made in USA)
4- Several NDS lowers (made in USA)
5- Ruger 10/22 (made in USA and had to check in my beliefs at the door due to Bill R.)

Parts
1- RRA parts Kit (made in USA)
2- Noveske upper (made in USA)
3- Numerous LaRue Tactical products (made in USA)
4- Several Daniels Defense products (made in USA)
5- Prince 50 kits (made in USA)
6- Bullet Button kits (made in USA)
7- Buckmaster Scope (made in Philipines)

So there you go, not one product from China to answer your question.
you seem to have misunderstood my statement, sure your guns are made in the USA what about everything else you use in your daily life. Look at the appliances you use at home, look at the cloth you wear, look at just about everything you use in your home although alot of them might be American brands but do some research, mostly are assembled in China and the parts definitely come from China. Do you drive an American car? Did you know lots of those parts come from China? I work in importing exporting and GM and Boeing are 2 of my company's biggest customers, they import alot of specialty parts from China.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stator View Post
How can a consumer not willing to support a country who threats us militarily, and supports through arms sales to our enemies that are actively trying to kill our troops as we type in calguns, be called ignorant? If that is tankerman's reason for not buying a Chicom product, then I commend him for being a patriot who is not ignorant of the issues.
ummm let me ask you where on Earth do you get your facts from? I have a feelings this is just your presumption. America have over 50% of the world's military power, and our military spending is more than 10 folds that of China's. How can you be afraid of China's mostly obsolete arsenal? Stop living in your Cold War Era mentality, times change, things change, do you keep up with world events? Do you read the news? Have you ever been to China? The last thing China wants is a conflict with the U.S. and they have actively trying to engage in any activity to have a closer tie with the United States. Who helped the U.S. with the North Korea nuclear disarmament? If China wasn't there flexing it's muscle against North Korea and hosting the 6 nation talks do you think we would have made progress on this issue? At the same time China can't do exactly what the U.S. wants with a total sanction against North Korea, they share a boarder and North Korea is highly militarized. Did you know when Clinton was in office we labeled China as Strategic Partner? But when cold war mentality Bush Jr. came in with all of his father's cold war mentality advisors he immediately labeled China as a Strategic Competitor and started a series of activities aimed at starting a war with China. Remember the spy plane incident? If 9/11 didn't happen unexpectedly we most likely would have picked a fight with the Chinese, after all we were gearing up for it. So the Chinese if building satellite destroying missiles, both the U.S. and Russia had those since the 80s. Under law America has the responsibility to defend Taiwan militarily and the Taiwan strait is a flash point where their independent minded president has repeatedly provoked China and the U.S. Obviously China would build capabilities to make us think twice before engaging in any military conflict with them over the Taiwan issue. Did you read the report to congress on the military power of China? It's updated every year and a yearly issue, if you have read it you would have noticed that it states in the report repeatedly that China have no desire for a conflict with the United States but is aimed at building long term prosperity with the possibility of a Taiwan Strait Crisis in mind.

So please, get your facts straight before discussing international politics.



Quote:
Originally Posted by stator View Post
I hate to ask where you obtained those numbers, but I suspect it is your gut feel.
actually I got those numbers straight out of my Marketing 101 book from Cal State University of Fullerton, if you want I can go tell you the author of the book and the specific page where it states that. Haven't you noticed that when you call for service on your Dell, HP or whatever computer system that it goes to a call center in India?
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Last edited by neomentat; 01-19-2008 at 9:31 AM..
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Old 01-19-2008, 9:41 AM
neomentat neomentat is offline
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one thing I forgot to mention,

although alot of goods are made in China, but the American companies are the ones profiting from it all. The textile industry in China who manufactures cloth for American & European companies have a 1-2% profit margin and they're extremely sensitive to the rise in value of the Chinese Yuan. The big toy recall earlier that prompted the suicide of the Chinese factory owner recently, did you know the toy manufactures in China have a 3% profit margin? China merely make a low profit margin on volume, the American and European companies are the ones banking in the cash.

Again read the news, do some research, and don't believe everything you hear from the politicians.
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Old 01-19-2008, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX100 View Post
My review of the two guns is right on that is why some of you turned the discussion to China. If the truth doesn't go your way and you can't debate the issues, some will turn them in a different direction.

GC
one of the best ways to win an argument if you can't prove your own validity is to discredit your opponent.

that said, I was under the impression that most chinese arms found stateside were imported long before and withheld for latter sales. Instead of flooding the market and making it cheap, it's easier to hold and release in batches; keeping the price synthetically high. -Like Diamonds, Burgers, and Internet services
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Anti gun BS...

Finger print recognition is one more thing that keeps your killamajig from performing its killimafunction
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