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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #321  
Old 08-22-2008, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdsmchs View Post
How does the shotgun mounted make it an AW?

The law says no grenade or flare launchers. A regular 12ga shotgun is neither.
No detachable mag and well under 10 round capacity. I don't see how it can be an AW either?
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  #322  
Old 08-22-2008, 11:41 AM
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You can buy 12ga flares.
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  #323  
Old 08-22-2008, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
You can buy 12ga flares.
Yeah, but a flare launcher is a flare launcher. They aren't recognized as firearms by law. They are special, exempted, "signal launching" devices.

A shotgun is a shotgun. Recognized by law as a firearm.

Also, 12ga flares are designed to be fired by handheld flare guns. I've heard from a number of people that they don't exactly work in shotguns.
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  #324  
Old 08-22-2008, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roccobro View Post
Uh, I now have a SBS 870. NOTHING from CA has any bearing on it. Maybe you just got the two terms swapped?
Gee - maybe NOT.

Penal Code 12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the
state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives,
lends, or possesses....any short-barreled shotgun, any
short-barreled rifle...

c) (1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means
any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed
shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches
in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches
and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an
overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less
than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed
shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in
subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to
convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C),
inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in
subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if
those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same
person.

Last edited by GuyW; 08-22-2008 at 12:01 PM..
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  #325  
Old 08-22-2008, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdsmchs View Post
Also, 12ga flares are designed to be fired by handheld flare guns.
If those handheld 12GA flareguns are truly 12GA, they would also be smoothbore pistols which is a problem of it's own.

You may be thinking of the 26.5mm flare pistols with adapter sleeves installed in them...
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  #326  
Old 08-22-2008, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
Gee - maybe NOT.

Penal Code 12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the
state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives,
lends, or possesses....any short-barreled shotgun, any
short-barreled rifle...
Here's where CA exempts C&Rs from 12020 violations.

Quote:
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
(7) Any firearm or ammunition that is a curio or relic as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the items pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(8) Any other weapon as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the weapons pursuant to the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto. …. The exemption provided in this subdivision does not apply to pen guns.
and AOWs are exempt from 12020 as well, except for pen guns. AW regs still need to be followed, so fixed-mag AK/AR pistols with VFGs should be fine. IIRC, there are a couple guys working on AOW Form 1s for AK/AR AOWs now.
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  #327  
Old 08-22-2008, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
Here's where CA exempts C&Rs from 12020 violations.

and AOWs are exempt from 12020 as well, except for pen guns. AW regs still need to be followed, so fixed-mag AK/AR pistols with VFGs should be fine. IIRC, there are a couple guys working on AOW Form 1s for AK/AR AOWs now.
Which is why you can't buy a NEW pistol gripped 870 and convert it to an SBS, but you can buy an OLD C&R 870 and convert it legally right...
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  #328  
Old 08-22-2008, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
If those handheld 12GA flareguns are truly 12GA, they would also be smoothbore pistols which is a problem of it's own.

You may be thinking of the 26.5mm flare pistols with adapter sleeves installed in them...
Nope. I have a 12ga handheld flare launcher. It will even chamber and fire (once) 12ga aguila mini shells. To do that would not only be illegal, but would blow your hand up. The entire gun is plastic. But it is absolutely 12ga. They have something like a 2" chamber to prevent them from firing normal 12ga ammo. And the fact that it's plastic also kinda prevents you from doing that safely.

This is the flare launcher:



You too can buy one at your local West Marine or Boaters World off the shelf.
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  #329  
Old 08-22-2008, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyW View Post

Generally, CA discussions should not mix up "short-barreled shotguns" ("SBS") and AOWs....

A NEW SBS is specifically not legal in CA for average citizens under CA law, even if it has a federal SBS tax stamp (ie, "paper").

A C&R shoulder-fired shotgun can apparently have the barrel shortened (and/or the entire gun shortened) to otherwise-illegal length(s) under CA law because its C&R and has a blanket exemption. I believe it still needs federal paper as a SBS.

A federally-papered AOW "shotgun" of any age is OK in CA as its exempted.
OK edited to remove my errors of incompleteness, ambiguity, and properly reflect MY understanding of this subject....

Last edited by GuyW; 08-22-2008 at 12:37 PM..
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  #330  
Old 08-22-2008, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Which is why you can't buy a NEW pistol gripped 870 and convert it to an SBS, but you can buy an OLD C&R 870 and convert it legally right...
Thats the idea. ATF has approved making SBSs out of C&R guns with valid Form 1s to comply with CA and MI law.
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  #331  
Old 08-22-2008, 6:51 PM
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Just received my paperwork back with tax stamp on my AOW home-built AK Pistol with JumboPanda mag lock.



I sent this pic with my application:

Last edited by vandal; 08-22-2008 at 9:21 PM..
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  #332  
Old 08-22-2008, 9:06 PM
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ke6guj-
You should just make a sticky at the beginning of this thread. I believe this is the third time we've gone over these little nuances and second time people have tried to argue about CA P.C. and C&R SBS's... It's obvious the thread is REALLY long and most have not read it all the way through. Reminds me of studying the AR15 thread on Trusts.

My local armorer was tickled to hear I had my .Gov blessing and tax stamp proof to have my 870 barrel shortened to ANY length I want.

Justin
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Last edited by Roccobro; 08-23-2008 at 4:40 PM.. Reason: Typing sucks after 30 hours being awake
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  #333  
Old 08-22-2008, 9:15 PM
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I screwed up and should have added a couple placeholder posts at the beginning of the thread so I could do that.

I guess I could edit the OP, but I'd hope to keep it clean without edits since it is pretty accurate. Plus, I don't know how much bigger the post can be edited to.
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  #334  
Old 08-23-2008, 4:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
I don't know how much bigger the post can be edited to.
10,000 characters maximum including spaces will fit in one post.
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  #335  
Old 08-24-2008, 1:04 AM
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if i have registered ar15(aw) can i turn into sbr?
i know you can't with OLL.....
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  #336  
Old 08-24-2008, 1:10 AM
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Originally Posted by PRODRIVE View Post
if i have registered ar15(aw) can i turn into sbr?
If the AR15 is not C&R, then it wouldn't meet the exemption for a legal SBR.
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  #337  
Old 08-24-2008, 1:18 PM
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Sure -- in about 42 years.

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Originally Posted by PRODRIVE View Post
if i have registered ar15(aw) can i turn into sbr?
i know you can't with OLL.....
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  #338  
Old 08-24-2008, 2:22 PM
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If anyone has a 4 digit serial numbered "colts armalite" lower, those are from the mid 60's and you could probably SBR them in about 6-7 years from now when they turn 50 years old.
Of course, most of those are still in the inventory of the US Air Force...
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  #339  
Old 08-24-2008, 7:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
[EDITED TO BE AS ACCURATE AS I CAN STATE MY UNDERSTANDINGS]

Generally, CA discussions should not mix up "short-barreled shotguns" ("SBS") and AOWs....

A NEW SBS is specifically not legal in CA for average citizens under CA law, even if it has a federal SBS tax stamp (ie, "paper").

A C&R shoulder-fired shotgun can apparently have the barrel shortened (and/or the entire gun shortened) to otherwise-illegal length(s) under CA law because its C&R and has a blanket exemption. I believe it still needs federal paper as a SBS.

A federally-papered AOW "shotgun" of any age is OK in CA as its exempted.
Since the biggining of this thread I have been under the impression that a federally registered AOW can legally be converted to a SBS for legal california possession because of the exemption k36guj listed in the OP.

A brand new shotgun originally equiped from the factory with a pistol grip is technically NOT a shotgun by california law because it not intended to be shoulder fired. The brand new "un-shotgun" can be registered as an AOW (there is no California law against AOW's except pen guns), and once this is done it can be registered as a SBS because it would fall under the AOW exemption.

GuyW, either I am completely missing something you posted earlier (and i've read this entire thread 3 times), or we are talking about two different things.
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  #340  
Old 08-24-2008, 9:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AYEAREFIFTEEN View Post
Since the biggining of this thread I have been under the impression that a federally registered AOW can legally be converted to a SBS for legal california possession because of the exemption k36guj listed in the OP.

A brand new shotgun originally equiped from the factory with a pistol grip is technically NOT a shotgun by california law because it not intended to be shoulder fired. The brand new "un-shotgun" can be registered as an AOW (there is no California law against AOW's except pen guns), and once this is done it can be registered as a SBS because it would fall under the AOW exemption.

GuyW, either I am completely missing something you posted earlier (and i've read this entire thread 3 times), or we are talking about two different things.
OK, I'm gonna say that if you AOW a PG-shotgun and then try to SBS it, you're gonna run into problems. I asked my NFA insider about this, and this is what he said.

Quote:
I've got another NFA question that came up that I hope you may be able to answer.

If someone were to take a "cruiser" type PG shotgun and register it as an AOW, and then later re-register it as an SBS so they could put a stock on it, what happens to the original AOW registration? Does ATF cancel the AOW registration, when the SBS is approved? Or does the firearm have two registration types associated with it, even though the AOW registration is functionally useless?


I assume that most people wouldn't care, but there is an exemption to some CA laws if the firearm is a registered AOW.

Thanks, Jack
--------------
Hi Jack,

Short answer is "No", it can not be dual registered. The SBS trumps, if you will, the AOW status. Once an SBS, with a shoulder stock, it then can not become and AOW again - or stay an AOW.

If you manufactured the AOW, you would have to engrave your name, city/state, and use the serial number - as the "manufacturer".

If you then wanted to then register it as a SBS, you would be the manufacturer, and would have to add a new serial number, or alter the existing by adding another alphanumeric character - as the same manufacturer can not duplicate serial numbers.

If you purchased it as an AOW, so it was already marked by another MFG, you could then use the same serial number as the "manufacturer" of the SBS - but this would still eliminate the AOW registration.

Hope that helps a bit.

Dan.
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  #341  
Old 08-24-2008, 10:13 PM
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OK, I'm gonna say that if you AOW a PG-shotgun and then try to SBS it, you're gonna run into problems. I asked my NFA insider about this, and this is what he said.
Thank you very much. Looks like I will have to do this with a C&R 870.
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  #342  
Old 08-24-2008, 10:29 PM
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found this for sale
Remington 870 Wingmaster 12g barrel date code dates it to 1956
i thinks this is good for SBS..right?
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  #343  
Old 08-24-2008, 10:34 PM
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Barrel codes on 870s aren't 100% accurate because the barrels are easily removable and swappable. Your best bet is to call Remington and get a born-on date via the serial number. When I called Remington, I asked if they had a ending serial number for 1957 and I was told 572,000. That would be without a prefix letter.

Even with that approximate serial number, I'd still call Remington to confirm.
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  #344  
Old 08-24-2008, 10:42 PM
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Barrel codes on 870s aren't 100% accurate because the barrels are easily removable and swappable. Your best bet is to call Remington and get a born-on date via the serial number. When I called Remington, I asked if they had a ending serial number for 1957 and I was told 572,000. That would be without a prefix letter.

Even with that approximate serial number, I'd still call Remington to confirm.
found s# on left side of the reciever
t454xxxv
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  #345  
Old 08-24-2008, 10:45 PM
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I'm gonna guess and say 80's on that. Another member found some S-prefix guns and they were around 1970, IIRC.
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  #346  
Old 08-25-2008, 1:18 AM
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Originally Posted by PRODRIVE View Post
found s# on left side of the reciever
t454xxxv
I see that as a 1970 model on my copied list of date codes from the BB of gun values. "S" is 1969 or early 70

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  #347  
Old 08-25-2008, 3:14 PM
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Even with that approximate serial number, I'd still call Remington to confirm.
On a serious go-to-jail issue like this - (once I determined via phone that the gun was over 50 yrs old) I'd pay for a letter from Remington (or whomever), and get it date stamped by the Post Office somehow...

Last edited by GuyW; 08-25-2008 at 3:33 PM..
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  #348  
Old 10-18-2008, 11:08 PM
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Just received my paperwork back with tax stamp on my AOW home-built AK Pistol with JumboPanda mag lock.



I sent this pic with my application:
Question???

Your AK Pistol now an AOW, Right? Well... What if you wanted to shoot it as a Pistol by removing the forward grip one day?
Because it is an AOW, does the forward grip always have to stay on?
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  #349  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:44 PM
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Can the serial numbers on the Remington 870s before 1957 have a suffix? I know that they dont have a prefix and the numbers are (should) be under 572,000.
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  #350  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:48 PM
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My two 1951 870s had a V as the suffix, and a call to Remington with the complete serial number with the suffix was given, and they confirmed the 1951 born-on date.
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  #351  
Old 10-19-2008, 4:12 PM
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Yeah i noticed on gunbroker that 870s before 1957 have the serial numbers before 572000 with V as a suffix. Too bad my focus right now is on an AR build right now.
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  #352  
Old 10-23-2008, 1:43 PM
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CA’s DD rules start at .60”, so if you wanted a DD between .51” and .60”, you would only need to get ATF approval, not CA DOJ.
I knew it!

There was so much hub bub about the Destructive Devices. Everyone kept telling me anything over .50 cal was a DD... All I could find was legislation on bores OVER .60. People were giving me bumm advice on DDs!

Okay, who's gunna sell me a .55 Caliber Boyes?
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I support violence against communists.
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Old 10-23-2008, 2:44 PM
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I knew it!

There was so much hub bub about the Destructive Devices. Everyone kept telling me anything over .50 cal was a DD... All I could find was legislation on bores OVER .60. People were giving me bumm advice on DDs!
what bumm advice? That you can just buy a .55 Boyes?. You still have to deal with teh ATF and pay the $200 get a tax stamp for a Destructive Device since it is over .50". You just don't have to get a CA DOJ DD permit since they don't regulate instate until .60".

Now, if you had a C&R FFL and could get CLEO sign-off, you could buy that .55 Boyes and have it shipped directly to you, no CA dealer needed.

Otherwise, you are gonna have to find a dealer willing to transfer one in and then transfer it to you, or your trust, on a Form 4.
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  #354  
Old 10-23-2008, 2:54 PM
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I don't understand how a CLEO sign-off comes into play with the C&R FFL. Can you explain? Is this from a federal or state requirement? I have a C&R FFL (which I think has lapsed... gotta renew it), but I'm not yet familiar with the rules for things that are both C&R and NFA items, particularly in this special case of "NFA items that CA doesn't care about quite as much".
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Old 10-23-2008, 3:19 PM
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I don't understand how a CLEO sign-off comes into play with the C&R FFL. Can you explain? Is this from a federal or state requirement?
it would be a federal requirement that you get the CLEO sign-off.

All Individual transferees require the CLEO sign-off unless the transferee is licensed as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer under the GCA and is a SOT under the NFA.

C&R FFLs do not meet that exemption. But, they can receive C&R firearms in interstate commerce without a local dealer needed.

look at instruction E on the Form 4, http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53204.pdf
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  #356  
Old 10-23-2008, 3:24 PM
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what bumm advice? That you can just buy a .55 Boyes?. You still have to deal with teh ATF and pay the $200 get a tax stamp for a Destructive Device since it is over .50". You just don't have to get a CA DOJ DD permit since they don't regulate instate until .60".

Now, if you had a C&R FFL and could get CLEO sign-off, you could buy that .55 Boyes and have it shipped directly to you, no CA dealer needed.

Otherwise, you are gonna have to find a dealer willing to transfer one in and then transfer it to you, or your trust, on a Form 4.
EXACTLY!
THAT"S 100% AWESOM!

And that's my point!

Getting a .55 caliber boyes was as easy as I thought it was! I was getting bum advice.
All I have to do is the ATF thing! woohoo
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Today, they walk among us. They’re on the television, they write for the newspapers, they have infiltrated the schools, the political system, and law enforcement. They call themselves Liberals.
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Old 10-23-2008, 3:42 PM
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Thanks for the explanation and reference, Jack. Please forgive me for being dense, but I'd like to clarify a few more points:

First, if this hypothetical Boyes rifle was transferred through an FFL rather than directly to the C&R-licensed buyer, would the CLEO sign-off still be necessary? That wasn't entirely clear to me when I looked over that form.

Second, would this FFL need to be a SOT-paying NFA-type FFL, or would any old FFL dealer willing to do the transfer be OK?

Third, am I correct in assuming that the CLEO sign-off is entirely at their discretion, even though they're just stating that they have no reason to believe that the buyer would use the weapon in an illegal manner?
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Old 10-23-2008, 3:48 PM
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I don't know of any lightly armoured German tanks around here...
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Are there any times when you don't have a loaded firearm within reach?
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I support violence against communists.
The United States once fought and killed communists abroad. Domestically, persons suspect of being a communist faced interrogation, juries, and having their careers and lives destroyed.

Today, they walk among us. They’re on the television, they write for the newspapers, they have infiltrated the schools, the political system, and law enforcement. They call themselves Liberals.
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Old 10-23-2008, 3:50 PM
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I don't know of any lightly armoured German tanks around here...
There aren't too many zombies, either, but that doesn't stop us from building our OLL black rifles!
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Old 10-23-2008, 3:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 383green View Post
Thanks for the explanation and reference, Jack. Please forgive me for being dense, but I'd like to clarify a few more points:

First, if this hypothetical Boyes rifle was transferred through an FFL rather than directly to the C&R-licensed buyer, would the CLEO sign-off still be necessary? That wasn't entirely clear to me when I looked over that form.
Yes, on the Form 4 to you, you would need the CLEO sign-off if bought as an individual. But a trust or corp is exempt from the CLEO sign-off, which is a reason for an NFA trust.

Quote:
Second, would this FFL need to be a SOT-paying NFA-type FFL, or would any old FFL dealer willing to do the transfer be OK?
Best/easiest would be an SOT'ed FFL, but it would have to a Destructive Device (Type 09) FFL, and those are rare. The fee for that is like $1000 a year or something for teh FFL and another $500 for the SOT. I have heard of the ATF allowing for a small number of DDs to be transferred through an non-DD FFL, but don't know the specifics.

I think a regular FFL could do it, but they would have to pay the $200 tax to get to them, and then you would have another $200 tax to get to you.

Quote:
Third, am I correct in assuming that the CLEO sign-off is entirely at their discretion, even though they're just stating that they have no reason to believe that the buyer would use the weapon in an illegal manner?
Correct, totaly at the mercy of the CLEO or any other NFA-acceptable signer.

That is why the trust option has become so popular in the last few years. I would guesstimate that thousands of trusts have been created nationwide for that reason.

Unless you really wanted it to be a .55 Boyes, you'd be better finding a converted .50BMG Boyes. Those should be exempt from the CA .50BMG rifle ban as a C&R.
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