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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1161  
Old 07-06-2012, 9:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winnre View Post
Interesting but that my AOW is not a SBS because there an the AOW clause. My Serbu is 16.5" overall and has a 6/5" barrel and fires 12ga shells. It DOES have a forward grip, would it still be legal if there was no forward grip like the Judge???
the SSS is an AOW because it is a smoothbore pistol, not because it has a VFG. Witnness Protection 870s are AOWs even though they have no VFG.
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  #1162  
Old 07-06-2012, 9:56 AM
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So if the SSS had a rifled bore it'd be a while different story. So, just smooth out the Judge bore....
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  #1163  
Old 07-06-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by winnre View Post
So if the SSS had a rifled bore it'd be a while different story.
right, at that point it would be a DD.

Quote:
So, just smooth out the Judge bore....
that would be an option.

there are 3 ways to AOW a Judge and make it CA legal. VFG, smooth bore, or wallet gun. smoothbore is probably the best solution, but would take more work. if you honed the barrel and removed the rifling, I'd assume that it would be around .46" or so. how much overbore will a .410 tolerate? I dunno.

for better shooting, it might require rebarreling, or sleeving the barrel, and that would take more work and $$$.
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  #1164  
Old 07-06-2012, 10:15 AM
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But since we have rifled slugs, is there THAT much of a difference in having a rifled bore or not, as far as shooting a slug vs a single bullet?
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  #1165  
Old 07-06-2012, 11:20 AM
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So can I get a dakota Arms MP5-clone with a SBR configuration or not?
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  #1166  
Old 07-06-2012, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by stilly View Post
So can I get a dakota Arms MP5-clone with a SBR configuration or not?
Slight possibility based on a recent letter, but for now the answer is "no"
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  #1167  
Old 07-11-2012, 9:44 AM
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Is a trust still "required" for an AOW in CA, i've been out of the loop for a few months, but I thought I remembered something about the ATF changing their CLEO signoff requirements.

If that is years down the road (I understand no one has a crystal ball) then I will just move forward with the trust and the AOW/stamp purchase. The trust would be useful for a future out of state suppressor purchase potentially as well (to be stored at a secured out of state location).
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  #1168  
Old 07-11-2012, 9:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOW2000 View Post
Is a trust still "required" for an AOW in CA, i've been out of the loop for a few months, but I thought I remembered something about the ATF changing their CLEO signoff requirements.

If that is years down the road (I understand no one has a crystal ball) then I will just move forward with the trust and the AOW/stamp purchase. The trust would be useful for a future out of state suppressor purchase potentially as well (to be stored at a secured out of state location).
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=70746
rumor: ATF to do away with CLEO sign off on form 4..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Griffin Armament's FB page:

Unofficial/secondhand: According to NFATCA at the recent SAR show, the ATF should be dropping the CLEO sign off individual form 4 transfer requirement in the coming year, but the local LEO's would still receive a copy of the form, so people who like their privacy may still benefit from use the trust or corporate transfers which will continue to be unreported AFAIK.


•NFATCA submitted a proposal to ATF several years ago to remove the CLEO signature requirement from NFA Forms
•Proposal was reviewed and massaged based upon ATF comments
•Proposal was reviewed and approved by ATF
•ATF submitted the formal request to DOJ
•DOJ reviewed and returned to ATF with requests for changes and clarifications
•ATF made changes and resubmitted to DOJ
•DOJ went through formalized review process
•DOJ *approved* request and returned to ATF
•ATF entered regulation formulation phase (writing the reg)
•Regulation phase completed
•Regulation submitted to OMB
•OMB initiates formal process for implementation
The formal process includes posting in the federal register, invitation for commentary, proposed new forms, etc. Count on anywhere from 90 to 270 days.
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  #1169  
Old 07-11-2012, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOW2000 View Post
Is a trust still "required" for an AOW in CA, i've been out of the loop for a few months, but I thought I remembered something about the ATF changing their CLEO signoff requirements.


Today it is still required. If ATF were to remove this requirement today, we could expect NFA form 1 and form 4 approvals to literally take 12-24 months. They are taking 7-12 months now. ATF needs to modernize the process or the NFA market will come to a grinding halt.

This is relevant to all NFA transfers, not just suppressors:

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  #1170  
Old 07-11-2012, 5:34 PM
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I can deal with the wait.
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  #1171  
Old 07-12-2012, 9:30 PM
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saw some interesting numbers on registered AOWs in CA.

December 2010, 3562
March 2012, 3698
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  #1172  
Old 07-12-2012, 10:59 PM
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My eyes are crossed from reading the last 26 pages.

I have two AOW questions
If the CLEO signs off on my forms, could they revoke there signature later?
Or if we have a change of CLEO could the new one cancel
The signature

The second question is about travel. Can you travel to other states with an AOW?
What are the rules on interstate travel? Can I travel to Vegas with an AOW?
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  #1173  
Old 07-13-2012, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
If the CLEO signs off on my forms, could they revoke there signature later?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
Or if we have a change of CLEO could the new one cancel The signature
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
Can you travel to other states with an AOW?
If the state allows ownership/possession of an AOW, then Yes.
If the state does not allow ownership/possession of an AOW, then No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
What are the rules on interstate travel?
Unloaded and in a locked container = legal method of transporting firearms throughout the USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
Can I travel to Vegas with an AOW?
Yes.
And depending on the type of AOW, you may be able to legally conceal carry it with a NV CFP.
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  #1174  
Old 07-13-2012, 9:10 AM
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Question. Sorry if it's been asked. There is no way to search a single thread.

I know I can't have an AR SBR because of CA AW laws. But, can I take a legal rifle lower that I own in CA, and pay the ATF tax stamp to get it designated an SBR federally, but then just never put the rifle together? And then only put it together when I visit NV (or other free states)?

There's no constructive possession for CA AWs, and federally it wouldn't matter because I'd have the stamp...

Yes, no?
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  #1175  
Old 07-13-2012, 9:34 AM
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Nope. ATF will not approve a form 1 in California for an SBR unless you possess a California Dangerous Weapons permit.
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  #1176  
Old 07-13-2012, 9:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EBR Works View Post
Nope. ATF will not approve a form 1 in California for an SBR unless you possess a California Dangerous Weapons permit.
Stupid question: how does the CADOJ have jurisdiction over what the ATF will approve?
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  #1177  
Old 07-13-2012, 10:03 AM
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ATF cooperates with Cali DOJ, unfortunately.
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  #1178  
Old 07-13-2012, 10:33 AM
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Default SBR travel

[QUOTE=MudCamper;8922606]Question.
I know I can't have an AR SBR because of CA AW laws. But, can I take a legal rifle lower that I own in CA, and pay the ATF tax stamp to get it designated an SBR federally, but then just never put the rifle together? And then only put it together when I visit NV (or other free states)?

As i was reading up on AOW, i read that you need ATF permission to take an SBR across state lines

You can open a nevada corporation or LLC that owns class 3 and NFa in Nevada
All items would need to be stored in Nevada and you would need a resident in NV to be a resident agent for the corporation- i believe this is correct
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  #1179  
Old 07-13-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
Stupid question: how does the CADOJ have jurisdiction over what the ATF will approve?
because federal law says that the NFA branch can not approve any applications that would violate state law. Since CA law says that you have to ahve a DW permit to possess an SBR in CA, then the NFA branch requires you to have an approved DW permit before they will approve the application for that SBR.
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  #1180  
Old 07-13-2012, 11:50 AM
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GODDAMN IT MOTHER****ERS GOD I HATE THIS ****ING STATE! WHY CAN'T I OWN A MUTH****ING MP5?

It is the ONE Counter Strike gun that made me famous. I just want an MP5 Navy... It does not even have to be full auto.

Sigh. What about a sweet M1 Pistol that I saw in the movie Trailer Park of Terror. Now THAT looked pretty cool.

Okay so then the thing to do is to start a TRUST with the intent of buying a aow and then it just takes xxx months to finish the entire process and get the gun... So what kinds of cool AOWs are there? I want something suppressed or full auto, but I will settle for rare and semi auto.
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  #1181  
Old 07-13-2012, 4:53 PM
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Cool AOW in CA? You have your choice of a short barreled, pistol gripped, Rem870 or Mossberg M500. Have at it with those two exotic choices for 8 bills.
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  #1182  
Old 07-13-2012, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
Cool AOW in CA? You have your choice of a short barreled, pistol gripped, Rem870 or Mossberg M500. Have at it with those two exotic choices for 8 bills.
I can get a brand new 870 based AOW for < $500. There are plenty of other AOWs that are Ca legal besides just 870 and 500 based guns. Hell, there are plenty of non smooth bore AOWs too. Did you read the thread enough to understand that one can also get C&R SBSs and SBRs legally in CA too?
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  #1183  
Old 07-13-2012, 5:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stilly View Post
Okay so then the thing to do is to start a TRUST with the intent of buying a aow and then it just takes xxx months to finish the entire process and get the gun... So what kinds of cool AOWs are there? I want something suppressed or full auto, but I will settle for rare and semi auto.
You won't be able to get anything suppressed, because Noise Suppressors are banned in CA.
You won't be able to get anything full auto, because Machine Guns are restricted in CA.

Here are some CA legal AOWs that have been offered by OC Armory in SoCal, that may fit your desire for rare and semi-auto.

"MP5K" AOW


"Saiga-12" AOW
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  #1184  
Old 07-13-2012, 9:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
I can get a brand new 870 based AOW for < $500. There are plenty of other AOWs that are Ca legal besides just 870 and 500 based guns. Hell, there are plenty of non smooth bore AOWs too. Did you read the thread enough to understand that one can also get C&R SBSs and SBRs legally in CA too?
He was asking for AOW's, not C&R stuff, which I know can be done but you have to find the donor gun first.

As for the availability of other types of AOW's, I tell ya, I am very happy to be wrong here and thanks for the info.
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  #1185  
Old 08-14-2012, 7:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
He was asking for AOW's, not C&R stuff, which I know can be done but you have to find the donor gun first.

As for the availability of other types of AOW's, I tell ya, I am very happy to be wrong here and thanks for the info.
OK...
re-cap please...
just found a remington model 11...
would love to do the SBS route...esp after reading WEB Griffin's books re Argentina... a charactar in the books has one...

anyway...
if the gun is a C&R..could we do a quick re-cap re: this? please and thank you!
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  #1186  
Old 08-14-2012, 8:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gato View Post
OK...
re-cap please...
just found a remington model 11...
would love to do the SBS route...esp after reading WEB Griffin's books re Argentina... a charactar in the books has one...

anyway...
if the gun is a C&R..could we do a quick re-cap re: this? please and thank you!
I believe the consensus (as issued from letter(s) from the ATF - you’ll have to go back and check the previous pages for it) is that the making/cutting/shortening/... of a C&R barrel invalidates its status as C&R thus eliminating the opportunity to have a "C&R SBR/SBS" in CA.

One would have to find a current SBS/SBR C&R (i.e. luger w/ pistol stock, S&W model 320, etc) to import in CA.
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  #1187  
Old 08-15-2012, 8:20 AM
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If your Model 11 has been registered with the NFA since day one, then you are g-t-g. We recently were able to bring in an SBS on a Form 3 due to the C&R status of an old Remington. Thanks to this thread, I thought I would try it. ...kind of like finding a set of hen's teeth to be able to bring this in without a special CA "Dangerous Weapons" permit. The kicker of the whole deal was that it had a property tag from "Monterey County Sheriff's Office!"
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  #1188  
Old 08-15-2012, 1:29 PM
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Where did you find the Remington at? In state or out of state?
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  #1189  
Old 08-15-2012, 1:39 PM
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Ironically, Texas.
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  #1190  
Old 08-15-2012, 6:54 PM
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I want a C&R SBS and an SBR. If you have any tips on how to look for and find one for a reasonable price, let us know. I always scan the Subguns.com for sale boards and several others that have NFA weapons but finding old ones is tough.
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  #1191  
Old 08-15-2012, 10:23 PM
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OK change of plans anyway...
going to just build it with a 20 in barrel and magazine extension...as soon as i learn hot to do the mag extension....
getting the new model 11 cheap enough this works and the gun is in rough shape cosmetically (needs new wood) anyway and the barrel is rusted internally...might as well cut it down...20 in is the traditional riot gun length with this gun anyway
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Old 09-10-2012, 1:53 PM
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Ok. I should know the answer for this but I do not remember anymore.

When must an item be engraved?

1. If I have a virgin AR lower that I wish to make into an AOW via a Form 1, do I need to engrave it once approved? What if it's already engraved (E.g. It's a complete colt lower).

I already have some lowers engraved with my individual name, however this name if different from my trust name. Can I still Form 1 these for an AOW without re-engraving? What about an SBR? (Only talking engraving here)

If I have an already approved AOW I got on a Form 4, and now want to make it an SBR, do I need to re-engrave it? (E.g. I own I Serbu, but now want to make it an SBR) Again only talking engraving rules.
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  #1193  
Old 09-10-2012, 2:23 PM
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Originally Posted by lorax3 View Post
Ok. I should know the answer for this but I do not remember anymore.

When must an item be engraved?

1. If I have a virgin AR lower that I wish to make into an AOW via a Form 1, do I need to engrave it once approved? What if it's already engraved (E.g. It's a complete colt lower).
it must be engraved with your maker's info before you physically make it into an AOW.

Colt's markings have no relevance towards the requirement that you mark it with your maker's markings. Except that you can re-use the existing serial number. Not requirement but recommended.

Quote:
I already have some lowers engraved with my individual name, however this name if different from my trust name. Can I still Form 1 these for an AOW without re-engraving? What about an SBR? (Only talking engraving here)
they must be engraved with the name on the Form 1. If your trust submitted the Form 1, then the trust's name must be engraved. Your exisitng "name" engravings don't count. This applies to all NFA items, AOWs and SBR included.

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If I have an already approved AOW I got on a Form 4, and now want to make it an SBR, do I need to re-engrave it? (E.g. I own I Serbu, but now want to make it an SBR) Again only talking engraving rules.
yes, if you want to make it an SBR via your trust submitting a Form 1, then your trust would need to engrave it. You would probably be better served to send the Serbu back to Mark and have him convert it to a SBR, no new engraving needed and he might be able to send it directly back to you on a new Form 4, no instate SOT needed.
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Old 09-10-2012, 2:44 PM
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That is what I figured. Well I guess I need to get some new lowers engraved with my trust name. Thanks.
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:16 PM
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wow, this is why I've been in withdrawal sense I moved back to California. the freedom I had for 18 yrs in oregon left me unprepared to deal with the Ca gun laws.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:38 PM
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You're not alone. Most free staters have this problem.
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Old 11-06-2012, 5:51 PM
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So I saw this today, Chiappa 1887



; and thought AOW.

The only pic I could find was a SBS:




Many people have said the ATF would not allow importation of pistol grip shotguns because there would be mass registration of AOW's. I've always thought that idea didn't add up. Now I see an Italian shotgun with no buttstock.

Why hasn't anyone imported a pistol grip side-by-side so I can have it cut down and be an AOW?
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Old 11-06-2012, 5:57 PM
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I would guess that it is because of the sporting purpose test that they must adhere to in order to import, but I may be wrong.
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Old 11-06-2012, 7:18 PM
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So ATF used to approve cutting the barrels of 50+yr old guns to make SBR, now they don't, but the laws haven't changed. What's up with that? What about the stamps they approved before?

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Originally Posted by Ubermcoupe View Post
I believe the consensus (as issued from letter(s) from the ATF - you’ll have to go back and check the previous pages for it) is that the making/cutting/shortening/... of a C&R barrel invalidates its status as C&R thus eliminating the opportunity to have a "C&R SBR/SBS" in CA.
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Old 11-07-2012, 7:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vandal View Post
So ATF used to approve cutting the barrels of 50+yr old guns to make SBR, now they don't, but the laws haven't changed. What's up with that? What about the stamps they approved before?
Who says they don't? A $200 tax stamp lets you make an SBS according to the Feds.
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