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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #801  
Old 01-24-2011, 9:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by impactco View Post
DOJ won't care about this configuration I assume?
not aware of any PC it would violate. CADOJ could decide that the AOW is a flare launcher since there are 12ga flares. Install the AOW on an RAW and its just another evil feature. Install it on a OLL with a maglock and evil features don't matter. Install it on a featureless rifle and it could possible trigger an AW violation. But other than that, the AOW status still trumps SBS law.
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  #802  
Old 01-24-2011, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
New AOW option is a fixed-mag pistol build like a AK, AR, or HK51 with a Vertical Forward Grip. With a fixed-mag, it is not an AW and you can get an AOW Form 1 to put a VFG on it.
As I posted in another thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...4&postcount=19), a pistol with a rifled barrel cannot be an AOW.

Quote:
U.S.C. TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 > Subchapter B > PART I > 5845
(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
Also, U.S. V. Fix , 4 Fed. appx. 324 (9th Cir. 2001) is of particular interest...
-----------

From the decision:
Quote:
"Fix argues that the government did not prove the Calico Liberty III, found during a search of his home and business, was a weapon that required registration. Fix was convicted under 26 U.S.C. 5861(d) of possession of an unregistered firearm. In a related provision, HN2"firearm" is defined by a list of eight weapons and a catchall provision of "any other weapon." See 26 U.S.C. 5845(a). "Any other weapon" includes "any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive," but not "a pistol . . . having a rifled bore . . ." See 26 U.S.C. 5845(e). Weapons not included in the definition of firearm in 5845 need not be registered under 5861(d). Fix argues that his Calico was a pistol, [**5] met the exception in 5845(e), and did not need to be registered under 5861.

We agree that the Government failed to prove a violation of 5861(d) for two reasons.

First, the weapon does not fit the definition required by the statute. HN3The provision defining "pistol" for the purposes of the statute is 27 C.F.R. 179.11, which defines a pistol as "a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand . . . ." The government argues that because the Calico was modified to be fired with two hands, it "falls out" of the definition of pistol and falls back into the definition of "any other weapon" in 5845. This argument ignores the definition's requirement that the weapon be capable of being held with one hand at the time it was originally designed and made. As written, this definition does not consider modifications of the weapon by the owner. The Calico was originally designed and made to be fired with one hand, and still could be, despite the addition of a foregrip.

Second, the definition of "any other weapon" in 5845(a) and (e) expressly excludes weapons with a rifled [**6] bore. We assume that the "any other weapon" provision was intended as a catch-all category in which to gather sawed-off shotguns and other hybrid weapons. A sawed off shotgun may be concealed like a pistol, but would have the smooth bore of a shotgun. The Government's witness stated that the Calico Liberty III had a rifled bore, and thus, cannot be considered "any other weapon."


Accordingly, the conviction on Count V must be reversed for insufficiency of the evidence."
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  #803  
Old 01-24-2011, 9:22 PM
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I am aware of that ruling but ATF ignores it and continues to enforce "VFG on a pistol is an AOW". For the $200 it costs for a tax stamp, I prefer to go that way vs. being the next test case.
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  #804  
Old 01-24-2011, 9:37 PM
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So the ATF has the power to rewrite the U.S.C. on the definition of an AOW? Sounds like underground legislation to me.
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  #805  
Old 01-24-2011, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Fate View Post
So the ATF has the power to rewrite the U.S.C. on the definition of an AOW? Sounds like underground legislation to me.
the problem is that even with those rulings against them, they'll still arrest you and run you through the system. it might get tossed, but you are still out the money. Yes, there might be a 1983 suit afterwards, but that isn't an sure thing.

Look at ATF's website today, 10 years after that ruling and you'll see this:
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/20...fore-grip.html and http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/fire...ical-fore-grip
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  #806  
Old 01-24-2011, 10:15 PM
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But an AR-15 pistol is not a handgun.
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  #807  
Old 01-24-2011, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Fate View Post
But an AR-15 pistol is not a handgun.
huh?
Quote:
478.11 Meaning of terms.

Handgun. (a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and

(b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.
sure looks like it meets the defintion of a handgun to me.


I did look back at the post with the court case and didnt' notiice that there was a circuit court ruling against ATF ( and a 9th Circuit case to boot). I was only aware of the district court cases in which ATF lost, but didn't appeal.
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  #808  
Old 01-24-2011, 10:38 PM
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All your cites above refer to putting a second grip on a handgun not a pistol. No mention of pistol at all on those rulings.

The other thread I linked to (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...=519349&page=1) went into differences between a pistol and a handgun.

But you know, I'm gonna backtrack on the "AR pistol isn't a handgun" stance until someone gets a letter from the ATF responding to US v Fix and the definitions of an AOW that precludes a rifled barrel and how that all relates to an AR pistol.

Because it's a mess right now.

And I'm freakin' tired at the moment
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  #809  
Old 01-24-2011, 10:44 PM
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ok, I see where your coming from, handgun vs. pistol. the way I read the definition is that handgun is the basic defintion, and then you can break that down into pistol and revolver defintions. All pistols would be handguns, but not all handguns are pistols.


in the GCA regulations, we have the following definitions:

Handgun. (a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and

(b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.


Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).


Revolver
. A projectile weapon, of the pistol type, having a breechloading chambered cylinder so arranged that the cocking of the hammer or movement of the trigger rotates it and brings the next cartridge in line with the barrel for firing.


in the NFA regulations, we have the following defintions:

Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).


Revolver. A projectile weapon, of the pistol type, having a breechloading chambered cylinder so arranged that the cocking of the hammer or movement of the trigger rotates it and brings the next cartridge in line with the barrel for firing.

no defintion for Handgun in the NFA, because anything less than <26" OAL is considered an AOW, unless it is a rifled-bore pistol or revolver.

ATF is using the term "handgun" to cover both pistols and revolvers.
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  #810  
Old 01-24-2011, 10:53 PM
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Regardless of the pistol/handgun def's, I want to see an answer to the questions posed by U.S. v Fix
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  #811  
Old 01-24-2011, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate View Post
Regardless of the pistol/handgun def's, I want to see an answer to the questions posed by U.S. v Fix
I would like to see that answer as well. I can only point to the ATF letter in 2006, well after Fix, where ATF still claims that VFG'ed handguns are AOWs.

edit: I could see that it might be possible that ATF wouldn't enforce VFG'ed handguns being AOWs in the 9th circuit, but still enforcing it in the other circuits. IF that is the case, it would be legal for us in CA to put VFGs on our handguns, but I'd want something confirming that before I tried it.
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  #812  
Old 01-24-2011, 11:25 PM
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Another good read: http://www.ak47.net/forums/topic.htm...f=122&t=523931
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  #813  
Old 01-25-2011, 1:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
got a cool letter today that states that mounting an AOW under a rifle does not change the classification of the AOW into an SBS, and does not affect the rifle either.

I'll try to get some pics of the letter up tomorrow.

But here is the jist of the letter:
Wow. That is awsome!
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  #814  
Old 01-25-2011, 5:50 AM
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I'm too lazy to search. If a customer buys a AR pistol and then decided he wants to AOW it with a forward grip, can he fill out the Form 4 (is it a Form 4?) and once he gets back approval add the forward vertical grip himself?

Thanks for helping me out.
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  #815  
Old 01-25-2011, 6:09 AM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
I'm too lazy to search. If a customer buys a AR pistol and then decided he wants to AOW it with a forward grip, can he fill out the Form 4 (is it a Form 4?) and once he gets back approval add the forward vertical grip himself?

Thanks for helping me out.
I think its a form 1- Manufacture of NFA item. Form 4 is transfer. (and a different tax amount)
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  #816  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
I'm too lazy to search. If a customer buys a AR pistol and then decided he wants to AOW it with a forward grip, can he fill out the Form 4 (is it a Form 4?) and once he gets back approval add the forward vertical grip himself?

Thanks for helping me out.
roman dad is correct, if the owner wants to do it himself, he files a Form 1, which runs $200. Once it comes back approved, he can engrave his name, city, state on the gun and install the VFG.


Or, he can find an 07FFL/02SOT that he can send his AR-pistol to and have them installl the VFG. The 02SOT would then inform ATF that was made by using a tax-free Form 2. The SOT would then do a $5 Form 4 directly back to the owner. So, it is $195 cheaper to do it through an 07FFL/02SOT minus whatever fee the SOT charges to do the conversion. $100 or so to do the work would be fair.
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  #817  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
roman dad is correct, if the owner wants to do it himself, he files a Form 1, which runs $200. Once it comes back approved, he can engrave his name, city, state on the gun and install the VFG.


Or, he can find an 07FFL/02SOT that he can send his AR-pistol to and have them installl the VFG. The 02SOT would then inform ATF that was made by using a tax-free Form 2. The SOT would then do a $5 Form 4 directly back to the owner. So, it is $195 cheaper to do it through an 07FFL/02SOT minus whatever fee the SOT charges to do the conversion. $100 or so to do the work would be fair.
Can this also be done with home built or single shot conversion AK pistols?
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  #818  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:36 AM
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sure can. exact same procedure whether it is a commercially made firearm vs. a homebuilt firearm.
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  #819  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
sure can. exact same procedure whether it is a commercially made firearm vs. a homebuilt firearm.
So the two options are either go through the NFA/AOW process to add the forward grip to either AR/AK pistols or add the AFG per ATF email
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:46 AM
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So the two options are either go through the NFA/AOW process to add the forward grip to either AR/AK pistols or add the AFG per ATF email
correct.
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  #821  
Old 01-25-2011, 3:19 PM
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Jack, with your letter I'm sure we are going to need another updated SOT/FFL07 in CA list!

GOOD JOB MAN!!!!

Justin
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Old 01-25-2011, 5:39 PM
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question 1&2 were asking about attaching an AOW under a rifle. question 3-5 were asking about attaching an AOW under a pistol (such as an AR-pistol). question 6 was asking about attaching an AOW under an AOW'ed AR-pistol. I need to decide if I need to follow up on questions 3-6, since I got the answer we wanted for #1 and 2.




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  #823  
Old 01-25-2011, 7:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
question 1&2 were asking about attaching an AOW under a rifle. question 3-5 were asking about attaching an AOW under a pistol (such as an AR-pistol). question 6 was asking about attaching an AOW under an AOW'ed AR-pistol. I need to decide if I need to follow up on questions 3-6, since I got the answer we wanted for #1 and 2.
Great news Jack!! Thanks for the update!!

Now the only question is, will Knights Armament sell the master key mount separately?
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  #824  
Old 01-25-2011, 7:27 PM
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or maybe get an MCS mount from Remington.

Unfortunately I am unaware of anyone currently offering Mossberg mounts. two issues iwth mossberg, alluminum receiver vs. Steel for the 870, and the top safety selector hard to operate when "masterkey"ed.
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  #825  
Old 01-25-2011, 7:31 PM
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oh, and I am picking up rumors that the CLEO sign-off requirement might be going bye-bye in the near future.

Quote:
Saw this and thought I'd share it. This is from the Senior Editor & Pres of the NFATCA.

"I am pleased to report that all branches and offices within ATF have given the official okey dokey to eliminating the CLEO signature requirements for NFA Forms. This includes Counsel's office and the National Sheriffs' Association! The package has been sent on to the Department of Justice with recommendation for approval. The package will include:

1.Elimination of CLEO signature requirement.
2.Institution of CLEO "notification" similar to an FFL application. (A copy of the form will be sent to the CLEO as opposed to asking for permission.)
3.Trusts and LLC's and corps will still be available for use.
4.In the event of #3, a NICS check will be required when the weapon is physically transferred.
Unknown is whether the Citizenship Compliance form will be eliminated and merged into the various NFA forms instead of being a separate nuisance. ATF is leaning toward elimination."
Quote:
The NFATCA has been working for several years to make this happen. I am proud to say that we have pushed this agenda item further with better results than we ever have before. ATF and its various branches have reviewed all of the potential issues and suggestions that we have presented. At this point, ATF has actually submitted the issue to the Department of Justice for final approval. We have never been able to get this issue out of ATF's "universe" before. At this point, it could be a matter of weeks or months before we receive final approval. I am hoping that the timing of the November release of several updated NFA forms is a good coincidence. That was the long answer. The short answer is yes, the process is in full swing.

Jeff Folloder
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Website: http://www.nfatca.org
Direct: 281.492.8288
IF that is true, then you wouldn't need a trust anymore.
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  #826  
Old 01-25-2011, 7:36 PM
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oh, and I am picking up rumors that the CLEO sign-off requirement might be going bye-bye in the near future.



IF that is true, then you wouldn't need a trust anymore.
This is very exciting. Keep us posted please.
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  #827  
Old 01-25-2011, 7:40 PM
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that rumor started bouncing around today on a couple forums, (joke was that it was started by Prince Law ), if it grows legs I''ll definitely keep you guys informed. If the CLEO sign-off goes bye-bye, AOWs are gonna explode in CA.
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  #828  
Old 01-25-2011, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
or maybe get an MCS mount from Remington.

Unfortunately I am unaware of anyone currently offering Mossberg mounts. two issues iwth mossberg, alluminum receiver vs. Steel for the 870, and the top safety selector hard to operate when "masterkey"ed.
I've never seen a mount designed for the Mossberg, but you are right, that safety would be really hard if not impossible to operate with a Knight's type mount. I'm 95% sure the Knight's mount screws directly to the top of the receiver of the 870. It's WAY cleaner looking (IMHO) than the Remington mount.

Anyone want to buy a Serbu so I can trade up?
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  #829  
Old 01-29-2011, 6:59 AM
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So the two options are either go through the NFA/AOW process to add the forward grip to either AR/AK pistols or add the AFG per ATF email
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
correct.

My AOW is still in route but here is one item that transpired from this discussion:

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  #830  
Old 01-29-2011, 4:42 PM
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Okay... $64,000 question. Is this thing CA legal? Because I really want one. You can even get an add-on shoulder stock.



20ga Black Powder double barrel pistol
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  #831  
Old 01-29-2011, 5:46 PM
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Okay... $64,000 question. Is this thing CA legal? Because I really want one. You can even get an add-on shoulder stock.
yup, CA legal. front stuffers are exempt from the SBS regs, so you can have it as an SBS if you want.
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  #832  
Old 01-29-2011, 6:05 PM
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maybe i'm a little slow. i thought serbu shorty was a sbs and illegal in cali
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  #833  
Old 01-29-2011, 6:16 PM
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maybe i'm a little slow. i thought serbu shorty was a sbs and illegal in cali
OK, you can get a SS from Serbu papered as either an SBS (you can put a shoulder stock on it federally) or as an AOW (must stay as a smooth-bore pistol).

The feds say tht a smooth-bore pistol is an AOW. CA says that anything that shoots a fixed shotgun shell and is <26" OAL or has a <18" barrel is a CA-defined SBS, even if the feds call it an AOW. However, CA's SBS law has an exemption for those AOWs that are properly registered.

Quote:
12020(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
(8) Any other weapon as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the weapons pursuant to the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
So, even though CA says it is an SBS, if it is an AOW, it is exempt from CA's SBS law.
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  #834  
Old 01-29-2011, 6:27 PM
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maybe i'm a little slow. i thought serbu shorty was a sbs and illegal in cali

Serbu with short barrel, VFG, without stock is an AOW
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  #835  
Old 01-29-2011, 7:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
OK, you can get a SS from Serbu papered as either an SBS (you can put a shoulder stock on it federally) or as an AOW (must stay as a smooth-bore pistol).

The feds say tht a smooth-bore pistol is an AOW. CA says that anything that shoots a fixed shotgun shell and is <26" OAL or has a <18" barrel is a CA-defined SBS, even if the feds call it an AOW. However, CA's SBS law has an exemption for those AOWs that are properly registered.



So, even though CA says it is an SBS, if it is an AOW, it is exempt from CA's SBS law.
thx - see thats the part that confused me. first, i thought that cali law pre-empted fed law with regards to sbs, and i thought aow's had to start life as a single shot
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  #836  
Old 01-29-2011, 7:24 PM
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thx - see thats the part that confused me. first, i thought that cali law pre-empted fed law with regards to sbs,
CA's SBS is more restrictive than federal SBS law, such as Taurus Judges being considered SBS in CA, and you have to have a CADOJ Dangerous Weapons permit to have a modern SBS in CA, in addition to the federal tax stamp. But CA law specifically exempts those firearms considered to be AOWs from CA's SBS law.

Quote:
and i thought aow's had to start life as a single shot
close, AOWs need to start as a non-rifle or non-shotgun. No shoulder stock attached. Either as a PG-only firearm like the Mossberg Cruiser, or as a pistol, or as a virgin receiver. by starting that way, it can become an AOW.

Nothing federally required about single shot. Now, CA has its Not Unsafe Handgun Roster, and one exemption to that is single-shot pistols. It has been opined by some that AOWs are considered handguns in CA so the Roster rules apply. As such, many AOWs are sold in CA as a single-shot AOW, to comply with the Roster. Once it is sold, it is like any handgun and it can be converted to a non-single-shot configuration.

Not
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  #837  
Old 01-29-2011, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RustyMacHine View Post
Serbu with short barrel, VFG, without stock is an AOW
the VFG has nothing to do with it being an AOW. It is an AOW because it is a smooth-bore pistol. the VFG just makes it "extra" AOW
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  #838  
Old 01-30-2011, 5:05 AM
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So the ATF has the power to rewrite the U.S.C. on the definition of an AOW? Sounds like underground legislation to me.
A pistol with a VFG is not 'designed to be fired with one hand', which is the definition of a pistol. AOW allows two hand grips.

It's important to note that the NFA was written when most handguns were fired single-handed, isosceles and weaver stances were years away.
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  #839  
Old 01-30-2011, 1:16 PM
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A pistol with a VFG is not 'designed to be fired with one hand', which is the definition of a pistol. AOW allows two hand grips.

It's important to note that the NFA was written when most handguns were fired single-handed, isosceles and weaver stances were years away.
do note that even though ATF has taken the postion that a VFG on a pistol is an AOW becuase it isn't desgined anymore to be fired with one hand", they have lost in court regardign that postion. I was aware of some district court losses, but recently heard about a 2001 9th Circuit loss of theirs, but they still are taking the postion that VFG+pistol=AOW. You might win in court if you tried to do a VFG + pistol build without having a tax stamp, but is it worth saving the $200, versus the lawyers fees to defend it in court?
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  #840  
Old 02-08-2011, 10:37 PM
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My Remington MCS (AOW). Sorry, no sound. Winchester 00 buck 2 3/4".

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