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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 01-20-2008, 2:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
Yes, there is a commemorative Canadian edtion C&R 10/22 that was Form 1'ed in Michigan as an C&R SBR. No, you can't convert to FA. No new FA's can be made for civilian use after 1986. And there is no exemptions in CA for FA that we can use with this method, only AOW/SBS/SBR .

The only way this exemption could help is if you already had a registered AW that was C&R that you wanted to SBS/SBR. Maybe in 10-20 years, this exemption may open up for some of the older registered AWs. If it were full-auto or burst, then you wouldn't have to worry about the AW rules, because you'd be dealing with the machinegun rules.

And yes, there are C&R machineguns. Anything made before 1957 or listed specifically, like the Stoner 63.

edit: Just to re-iterate, No you can't use this method to get/build a machinegun or suppressor. And you could get into unregistered AW areas if you aren't careful. This link is your friend, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/ , read it well. Parse everything you read carefully and then read it again There are exemptions that are available to us, just have to find them without triggering a prohibition somewhere else.
I guess I wasn’t paying close enough attention… I saw the NFA items and jumped the gun there.

I like the idea of going the AOW route and making one out of a pistol-gripped 870. Would you be running into AW issues if you were to mount an AOW shotgun on a rifle? Technically you could fire a flare from it and flare launchers = evil feature. Also would mounting it make it a SBS by giving it a stock so to speak?

That being said, are you guys sure that a shotgun that never had a stock would be an AOW and not a SBS? I kind of read this to mean that it would be a SBS under CA law. Which would totally negate my 870 question
Quote:
(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following: (A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. (B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. (D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive. (E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php

PS. I know that there are plenty of C&R machine guns, I was wondering about burst fire which is irrelevant at this point.
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  #42  
Old 01-20-2008, 2:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
Yup, if it was a pistol-gripped shotgun, and has never had a stock attached, you could do a Form 1 for an AOW with a trust with no CLEO signoff and no need for an NFA dealer.

Once you get the Form 1 approved, then go ahead and create your own Super Shorty. Just make sure that you never attach a stock to it or you will have created an illegal SBS.
So it would needed to have left the factory with a pistol grip?

Or would this shotgun qualify... ???
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=8441804



just trying to understand this.
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  #43  
Old 01-20-2008, 2:31 PM
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Originally Posted by RANGER295 View Post
I guess I wasn’t paying close enough attention… I saw the NFA items and jumped the gun there.

I like the idea of going the AOW route and making one out of a pistol-gripped 870. Would you be running into AW issues if you were to mount an AOW shotgun on a rifle? Technically you could fire a flare from it and flare launchers = evil feature.
That would depend on CA's definition of a flare launcher. I dunno the specifics on that.

Quote:
Also would mounting it make it a SBS by giving it a stock so to speak?
Yup, that seems to be the consensus, that attaching a AOW to a rifle to make a "masterkey" would turn the AOW into an SBS because of the rifle's stock. The talk I see on subguns.com and ar15.com is that those that want to build a "masterkey" normally register the shotgun as an SBS, not an AOW. For most people, there is no big deal to doing an SBS, just in CA, our SBS options are more limited.

Quote:
That being said, are you guys sure that a shotgun that never had a stock would be an AOW and not a SBS? I kind of read this to mean that it would be a SBS under CA law. Which would totally negate my 870 question
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php
In CA, it would be considered an SBS per CA law, but could still be an AOW per the NFA. The trick is that normally all SBS in CA are prohibited in 12020a, except for those that are permitted by the exemptions in 12020b. 12020b8 says that 12020a does not apply to
Quote:
(8) Any other weapon as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the weapons pursuant to the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto. …. The exemption provided in this subdivision does not apply to pen guns.
If the Feds define that cut-down pistol grip shotgun as an AOW and you are permitted to possess it with a Form 1 or Form 4, then you are exempt from 12020a and 12001.5 as well.
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  #44  
Old 01-20-2008, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by toolman9000 View Post
So it would needed to have left the factory with a pistol grip?

Or would this shotgun qualify... ???
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=8441804



just trying to understand this.
That shotgun would probably NOT qualify to be built into an AOW. According to the ATF, if it ever had a stock on it, then it is a shotgun. Unless you can prove that it never had a stock on it, I don't think you could AOW it.

A pistol-grip shotgun, as delivered by the manufacturer, is not technically a shotgun, since it never has a shoulder stock on it. It is just a firearm. Now, if you later attach a stock to it, it is now a shotgun, and will always be a shotgun, even if you later remove the stock.

Those rules are why a shotgun can be purchased by a 18+ year old, but a "cruser" type shotgun must be purchased by a 21+ year old.

Now, if it is a C&R, then do a Form 1 for an SBS.
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  #45  
Old 01-20-2008, 7:32 PM
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So, who's up first?
Anybody know an inexpensive trust lawyer in San Diego?
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  #46  
Old 01-20-2008, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by whomper View Post
So, who's up first?
Anybody know an inexpensive trust lawyer in San Diego?
I already gave the feds $200 once. I think I'm gonna do it again real soon.
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  #47  
Old 01-20-2008, 10:34 PM
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I will be going AOW with an LAR15 pistol that I'm purchasing, and will be using my trust to do so
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  #48  
Old 01-20-2008, 10:46 PM
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LAR15 as in AR15-style pistol? AOW with forward pistol grip? Planning on having it semi-auto? If so, how are you gonna comply with 12276.1? The 12020b8 exemption applies to 12020a prohibitions, not prohibitions in other areas of the code.

You still have this to comply with:
Quote:
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
And as far as I can tell, even if it was a AOW per the feds, CA would still call it a pistol per
Quote:
12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."
I guess you could bullet button it and run 10 round mags if you wanted to. But otherwise, with a detachable mag, its an AW 3 or 4 different ways.

edit: Didn't realize you were LEO. I guess you could get a AW permit for it maybe. But if you could get the chief to sign for a AW permit, then maybe AOWing in as a person instead of a trust may be better.

Last edited by ke6guj; 01-20-2008 at 11:02 PM..
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  #49  
Old 01-21-2008, 6:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whomper View Post
So, who's up first?
Anybody know an inexpensive trust lawyer in San Diego?
Dude setting up a trust for this type of thing is EASY. You don't even need a lawyer. You can probably do it for $200 or so on LegalZoom.com.

Don't make a big deal of this "trust" thing, it's ridiculously easy to do.

When you do get your NFA item in here, send a picture of it to the police chief who refused to sign.

So what's the conclusion here? Does this mean that I can (with proper fed. paperwork) own an AOW here in CA?

For example: http://serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

It's an AOW that fires shotgun shells. Are you telling me that I have a path to own that here?
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  #50  
Old 01-21-2008, 8:34 AM
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  #51  
Old 01-21-2008, 8:40 AM
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Man, this is a dangerous conversation...
I think a little disclaimer is in order here that ANY and ALL "ADVICE" given here sould be taken with a grain of salt. Consult a lawyer or somebody else with a degree and buisness license to give you said advice BEFORE you act on it. Its a lot harder AFTER you get arrested than it is BEFORE you get arrested.

Just a little friendly advice.
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  #52  
Old 01-21-2008, 9:05 AM
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Originally Posted by CCWFacts View Post
It's an AOW that fires shotgun shells. Are you telling me that I have a path to own that here?
That is a question I raised in an earlier post. I question whether or not an AOW that fires shotgun shells would be considered an AOW under CA law. Based on this definition of a SBS, I think an argument could be made that it would be considered a SBS by the state;
Quote:
12020. (32)(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following: (A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. (B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. (D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive. (E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
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  #53  
Old 01-21-2008, 9:11 AM
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Originally Posted by gunrun45 View Post
Man, this is a dangerous conversation...
I think a little disclaimer is in order here that ANY and ALL "ADVICE" given here sould be taken with a grain of salt. Consult a lawyer or somebody else with a degree and buisness license to give you said advice BEFORE you act on it. Its a lot harder AFTER you get arrested than it is BEFORE you get arrested.

Just a little friendly advice.
Which is why this thread is in the 2nd amendment forum which has this
Quote:
2nd Amend. Politics and Laws Discuss gun rights and political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.
on every page, and I added this to the bottom of my OP

Quote:
The ATF will not approve any transfer that would violate state law.

This is not legal advice. I am not a lawyer, and definitely am not your lawyer.
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  #54  
Old 01-21-2008, 9:20 AM
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Originally Posted by CCWFacts View Post

So what's the conclusion here? Does this mean that I can (with proper fed. paperwork) own an AOW here in CA?

For example: http://serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

It's an AOW that fires shotgun shells. Are you telling me that I have a path to own that here?
Yes, there is a path to ownership. Building one on a Form 1 is easiest. Just buy a pistol-gripped shotgun, transfer it to the trust, file a Form 1 (with a trust, no CLEO sign-off needed), and when it comes back approved, cut away.

Buying on on a Form 4 is more work. First, you ahve to find a Class 3 dealer willing to work with you. My local Class 3 dealer didn't want to deal and was trying to tell me that I had to meet ALL the 12020b exemptions at the same time to qualify Also, the trust would be the one actually purchasing the AOW, so how the 4473 and DROS gets filed out, I dunno.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RANGER295 View Post
That is a question I raised in an earlier post. I question whether or not an AOW that fires shotgun shells would be considered an AOW under CA law. Based on this definition of a SBS, I think an argument could be made that it would be considered a SBS by the state;
That CA definition is accurate. Anything that shots a shotgun shell that is less than 18" barrel/26"OAL is an SBS per CA law. However, what you are missing is that if what you have is considered an AOW by the feds and properly registered, then it is exempt from the SBS prohibition in 12020a.

Quote:
(8) Any other weapon as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the weapons pursuant to the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto. …. The exemption provided in this subdivision does not apply to pen guns.
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  #55  
Old 01-21-2008, 9:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
Yes, there is a path to ownership. Building one on a Form 1 is easiest. Just buy a pistol-gripped shotgun, transfer it to the trust, file a Form 1 (with a trust, no CLEO sign-off needed), and when it comes back approved, cut away.

Buying on on a Form 4 is more work. First, you ahve to find a Class 3 dealer willing to work with you. My local Class 3 dealer didn't want to deal and was trying to tell me that I had to meet ALL the 12020b exemptions at the same time to qualify Also, the trust would be the one actually purchasing the AOW, so how the 4473 and DROS gets filed out, I dunno.


That CA definition is accurate. Anything that shots a shotgun shell that is less than 18" barrel/26"OAL is an SBS per CA law. However, what you are missing is that if what you have is considered an AOW by the feds and properly registered, then it is exempt from the SBS prohibition in 12020a.
And that is why I recommend that people consult a lawyer, because these laws are so scrambled up that it is easy to miss something. In this case I missed something that would help us out, I just as easily could have missed something in the other direction.
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  #56  
Old 01-21-2008, 9:46 AM
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The items described in 12020(b)(8) do indeed remove them from the scope of 12020(a) prohibitions.
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  #57  
Old 01-21-2008, 10:52 AM
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Discount Gun Mart in San Diego is a Class 3 dealer. However, they stated that they do LEO sales only.
I said that I beleive they are incorrect about a few things and he told me to call CA DOJ.

ETA: They also said a Remington 870 AOW would be an SBS per Cali law b/c of OAL...according to the manager.
ETAA: American Shooting Center is also Class 3. The fellow said to call tomorrow and ask for Sharon. I have a feeling I already know what she will say.
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  #58  
Old 01-21-2008, 3:35 PM
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Not mine, but

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Old 01-21-2008, 4:11 PM
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Not mine either...

http://www.keepshooting.com/producti...elriflebig.jpg

USGI model = older than 50 years. After you get your approval, cut the barrel about 2" in front of the muzzle to make 30". When you go to a free state, you can pop on a folding stock.
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Old 01-21-2008, 4:30 PM
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Originally Posted by gibbet View Post
Not mine either...

http://www.keepshooting.com/producti...elriflebig.jpg

USGI model = older than 50 years. After you get your approval, cut the barrel about 2" in front of the muzzle to make 30". When you go to a free state, you can pop on a folding stock.
That may have an OAL of less than 30" which = AW if not, that would be cool
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Old 01-21-2008, 4:57 PM
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disregard
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Old 01-21-2008, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by RANGER295 View Post
That is a question I raised in an earlier post. I question whether or not an AOW that fires shotgun shells would be considered an AOW under CA law. Based on this definition of a SBS, I think an argument could be made that it would be considered a SBS by the state;
That was always my understanding. Feds would say it's an AOW ($5 tax and no problem), state would say it's a SBS, and therefore out of reach for mortals like me.

Edit: but now I see the provision where NFA registration takes it out of the state restriction. Hmm. Maybe I will own an NFA item at some point. Unfortunately the two types of NFA things I really want to own (MG and suppressor) are still out of reach.
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  #63  
Old 01-21-2008, 5:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RANGER295 View Post
That may have an OAL of less than 30" which = AW if not, that would be cool
I measured it with a tape. If you cut about 1.5-2 inches in front of the HG, you should be good.

Reference Testing The War Weapons by Timothy J Mullin, pgs 354-355.

Here is another site, just for reference only, the folder stock would only work on a registered AW:

http://www.ak47.net/lite/topic.html?b=6&f=20&t=232441

The Ultimak rail looks intriging....

Last edited by gibbet; 01-21-2008 at 6:17 PM..
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Old 01-21-2008, 7:16 PM
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True setting up a trust using Willmaker or legal zoom is relatively easy. The problem is that NFA items are not typical trust assets and the trusts that these off the shelf programs create are not created to deal with the many unique problems associated with the transfer or possession of these items.

If your only concern is the acquisition and not protecting your family from the penalties associated with making a mistake (250,000 and 10 years in jail) I would consider using quicken. You might read some of the articles on mistakes made with quicken and gun trust specific issues that I have written about. These issues are only dealing with the federal issues as in Florida there are no additional state restrictions like with California and some other states.
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Old 01-25-2008, 5:44 PM
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I have been giving this a lot of thought and doing some shopping around. I have come to the conclusion that the cheapest way to do this would be to order an AOW already made. Problem there is you need a class III dealer. Did anyone find one that would actually sell to civilians?

Secondly I wonder if an AOW shotgun would be considered a pistol under CA law?
Quote:
12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length. (2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."
If so would this make it so that you would need to treat it as a handgun in terms of it being on the roster (assuming non C&R here)? Would it be registered as a handgun in CA? Would it have to be transported like a handgun?

The transportation issue brings me to another questions. Exactly how are these treated transportation wise. The reading I have been doing says that you need to keep a copy of the paperwork with you and for SBS/SBR notify I think it is BATF if you transport it out of state. But within the state, are there restrictions to use and transportation like there are with AW’s? I didn’t see any but I may be missing things again. Could you take it backpacking with you? If you had it in your backpack would that be a concealed weapon like a handgun or be ok like if you had a standard 10/22 with a folder in there? If it were to be considered a handgun, and it were owned by a trust rather than you as an individual, and you got popped for concealed carry, would it be an automatic fellony being that it was not registered to you? So I am curious about these types of issues.

You need to have your name and city engraved/stamped in the reciever or barrel. What happens if you move to a different city? Do you have to go through another transfer process? If you had the chief LEO signiture do you need to get a new one for the chief LEO in your new area? Do you line out the old city and put the new one on? I am most likely going to be moving at least 3 times in the next couple years due to going to a new school for a masters, student teaching, and finally a permanent teaching position.

Does anyone have any idea how much it would cost to have a trust set up? Does anyone know of any lawyers in the area that are already familiar with this type of thing so that they do not need to spend a large ammount of time on research (time = $$$)?

Other than the signature, is there really any reason to go with a trust over just owning it at an individual? I am thinking about going to the sheriff, and seeing if I can get him to sign it. If he does not want to, maybe even tell him that I can and will do it with or without him and that his cooperation will just make it easier and just hope that I can reason with him. I am currently in San Joaquin County, has anyone had any dealings with our sheriff Steve More?

There were a couple of other things I was going to bring up but I got interrupted and cant remember what they are so this is enough for now.
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Old 01-25-2008, 6:08 PM
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I am working with a lawyer in California to prepare a NFA Gun Trust for California that deals with the federal and local issues. Would someone mind explaining the specific issues and or laws that apply to the ownership of Class 3 items ( and the differences between the different types of Class 3 items ) in California. I dont need information on the NFA or form 4 unless there is are additional requirements imposed under CA law.

Thanks
Feel free to email me directly if you would prefer or post to this thread.

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Old 01-25-2008, 6:23 PM
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David,

The first post in this thread does a very good job of explaining CA NFA/AOW laws:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...39&postcount=1

-Gene
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Old 01-25-2008, 6:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimbercarry View Post
so pretty much a B.A.R. would classify as a c&r could if i read all that stuff right you pay 200 and can shorten the barrel.FA is alittle confusing for me. could i possibly make it FA? also aren't some of the 1919's,m14,tommy gun,and some ak's c&r? would those be able to be done in FA? if its listed on the aw ban we still cannot bring it in as a c&r because its listed sorrect?
This was the first thing that I asked (about making something FA). I was told that was a no go. The C&R exemption is for SBS/SBR. AOW’s are all fair game except for pen-guns. None of this exempts a weapon from AW status if it is listed or has the generic characteristics.
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Old 01-25-2008, 7:21 PM
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There's nothing confusing about FA. If it wasn't in the NFA registry as a FA gun in May of '86, it can never be a transferable privately-owned FA gun. The only way to own post-May FA guns is as a dealer or manufacturer, or government entity, and that's very restricted. Owning one as a dealer requires some proof that some government agency (the only entities which can buy these things) is interested in possibly buying it.

The only way this will ever change will be with a court case. Many people (including me) are hoping Heller might eventually be used to fix this problem.
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Old 01-25-2008, 7:30 PM
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Form 1 a C&R Shotgun using a trust and cut down the barrel & engrave once it's approved.

Doesn't get much easier than that.

The hard part might be trying to explain why it's legal to an LEO. That's where your approved from 1 with stamp comes in handy along with the info in the thread.
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Old 01-25-2008, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RANGER295 View Post
I have been giving this a lot of thought and doing some shopping around. I have come to the conclusion that the cheapest way to do this would be to order an AOW already made. Problem there is you need a class III dealer. Did anyone find one that would actually sell to civilians?
I should be about $550 for my mossberg cruiser when I get the Form 1 approved. I can then cut it myself or send to Serbu to get super-shortied for $365. Compared to $725 for a Serbu Super-SHorty


Quote:
Secondly I wonder if an AOW shotgun would be considered a pistol under CA law?

If so would this make it so that you would need to treat it as a handgun in terms of it being on the roster (assuming non C&R here)? Would it be registered as a handgun in CA? Would it have to be transported like a handgun?
It may be. That is part of the reason I'm Form 1'ing mine, so I don't have to worry about trying to form 4 something and then find out that it isn't rostered, and I can't get it. I tried to get my local class 3 dealer to Form 4 a Super SHorty last year and he blew me off. At that time the roster didn't even come up, he just couldn't understand the 12020b8 exemption.

Quote:
The transportation issue brings me to another questions. Exactly how are these treated transportation wise. The reading I have been doing says that you need to keep a copy of the paperwork with you and for SBS/SBR notify I think it is BATF if you transport it out of state. But within the state, are there restrictions to use and transportation like there are with AW’s? I didn’t see any but I may be missing things again.
I didn't notice anything special either about intra-state transportation in CA. Yes, a 5320.20? is needed for any inter-state transportation. I plan on having complete copies of the Trust, ATF forms, and pertinant laws printed out and in a folder with me whenever I take it out.

Quote:
Could you take it backpacking with you? If you had it in your backpack would that be a concealed weapon like a handgun or be ok like if you had a standard 10/22 with a folder in there? If it were to be considered a handgun, and it were owned by a trust rather than you as an individual, and you got popped for concealed carry, would it be an automatic fellony being that it was not registered to you? So I am curious about these types of issues.
I don't plan on doing any of that type of carry, more of a fun range toy only, so I haven't thought about that too much. I know that some people have mentioned CCW exemptions in you were hunting or fishing, but I don't know the particulars of those exemptions. But if it is a pistol, could you image listing it on your CCW if you had one

Quote:
You need to have your name and city engraved/stamped in the reciever or barrel. What happens if you move to a different city? Do you have to go through another transfer process? If you had the chief LEO signiture do you need to get a new one for the chief LEO in your new area? Do you line out the old city and put the new one on? I am most likely going to be moving at least 3 times in the next couple years due to going to a new school for a masters, student teaching, and finally a permanent teaching position.
You mark it when it is made. If you move later on, it was already previously made, so it doesn't need to be remarked. And no, you don't have to get a new CLEO signoff since you don't have to do a new Form 1.

Quote:
Does anyone have any idea how much it would cost to have a trust set up? Does anyone know of any lawyers in the area that are already familiar with this type of thing so that they do not need to spend a large ammount of time on research (time = $$$)?
I'd check with the Florida Trust Lawyer for a referral to the CA trust lawyer, but if you went with Willmaker, its less than $100.

Quote:
Other than the signature, is there really any reason to go with a trust over just owning it at an individual? I am thinking about going to the sheriff, and seeing if I can get him to sign it. If he does not want to, maybe even tell him that I can and will do it with or without him and that his cooperation will just make it easier and just hope that I can reason with him.
A trust doesn't have to do fingerprints or photos, while a person does. It used to be that corps and trusts processed faster than a individual transfer, since there was no background check to perform. But with the added scrutiny of the ATF lawyers looking over the trusts to confirm that they are valid, the time difference seems to be less.

If they won't sign, dangling the carrot (sign and you'll know what I have) or show them the stick (if you don't sign, I'm going with a trust and you won't know anything). Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. On one of the other forums (AR15.com?) one of the posters is the CLEO and he can sign his own forms. However, he does his forms on a trust if that tells you anything.

Last edited by ke6guj; 01-25-2008 at 11:59 PM..
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Old 01-26-2008, 7:37 AM
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Although Arizona, here's some good info. on setting-up a trust for NFA. Including filled-out sample forms and helpful links.

http://arizonagunlist.com/How_to_buy...O_signoff.html

You may also want to do a voluntary registration with the state on your NFA item. Your confirmation letter may give your NFA item a little more legitamicy during an LEO contact. The serial # will also be in the system as registered to you.

FIREARM OWNERSHIP RECORD
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf
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Old 01-26-2008, 7:49 AM
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That is a well written article that walks you through using a Quicken trust to acquire a Class 3 item, but does not deal with any of the specific issues facing CA residents or trusts with firearms issues. For more on these issues you might check the articles below.
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Old 01-26-2008, 7:56 AM
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I have a HK SP89 pistol thats a registered CA AW. Would I be able to do this trust thing and then put a K grip or stock on it? Or would some state law prevent this? If you put a stock on a pistol does it become a SBR or AOW. I know with the K grip it would become an AOW.
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Old 01-26-2008, 8:38 AM
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pieeater,

My understanding here is that the only SBR you can own in California without a CA DOJ Permit is a C&R SBS or SBR. Your SP89 would be a non-C&R SBS in the eyes of state law.

-Gene
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:08 AM
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Couple of things...

By federal law a shotgun-based AOW is a "smooth-bore pistol." It's designed to be concealed upon a person, does not have a rifled-bore and is not designed to fire from the shoulder. In other words it's a handgun. And if it's a handgun in CA, then doesn't it have to be on the Approved List?

Separately, I posted previously about this. I owned a Wilson Arms WP870 AOW 15 years ago when I lived in another state. Before I moved to CA I looked carefully at the same exemptions we're talking about here in order to see about filing a Form 5320 to legally bring it with me. A 5320 is not necessary to move an AOW interstate, but I thought it would be another piece of official paperwork that would be valuable in clearing any misunderstanding. In trying to talk to NFA Branch about this, they insisted that a shotgun-based AOW is not legal in CA without a permit and said any 5320, or Form 1 or Form 4 application for that matter, for such would be denied. We agreed that if they had a letter from CA-DOJ stating it's legality, they would approve it. I called and wrote DOJ about this ad nauseum, fully armed with the legal text to prove my request and was repeatedly denied saying that a permit was indeed needed. I ended up just selling it to a buddy before I left.

While the above is a 15-year old experience, I have found no clear skies with DOJ when it comes to these issues. I highly advise any of you to consult an attorney before you go setting up a Trust to get an NFA toy in CA. Even if successful with NFA Branch, you'd be pushing to boundaries of understanding with DOJ, the state officials charged with enforcing these very laws. In creating a Trust or Corp to do this, you are circumventing the very interaction that might stave off a serious legal confrontation down the road. I'm not saying it's illegal, I'm saying those that enforce it think it's illegal and we've all seen their complete lack of understanding of OLL and AW related laws. People are still being charged for possession of AW-appearing firearms, having their guns confiscated and spending tens of thousands of dollars to extricate themselves from the legal mess. Legal possession of what will effectively be a "sawed-off shotgun" to these people will not be understood or tolerated.

Last edited by monkey; 01-26-2008 at 10:11 AM..
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:48 AM
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monkey,

As to ATF denying the form 1 or 4, California law is quite clear that an AOW or a C&R SBR or SBS is legal to own in California with proper Federal registration.

I'm going to look a bit more on the "capable of being concealed upon the person" issue. Where do you see a .12 gauge smooth bore AOW is a "smooth-bore pistol" in Federal law?

-Gene
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:13 AM
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Gene, I think it's more the other way around, a smooth bore pistol chambered for a shotgun cartridge is an AOW:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 26 USC 5845
(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
monkey,

As to ATF denying the form 1 or 4, California law is quite clear that an AOW or a C&R SBR or SBS is legal to own in California with proper Federal registration.

I'm going to look a bit more on the "capable of being concealed upon the person" issue. Where do you see a .12 gauge smooth bore AOW is a "smooth-bore pistol" in Federal law?

-Gene
An AOW is:
"...any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the
person from which a shot can be discharged through the
energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a smooth
bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell,
weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12" or
more, less than 18" in length, from which only a single
discharge can be made from either barrel without manual
reloading, and shall include any weapon which may be readily
restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or
revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons
designed, made or intended to be fired from the shoulder and
not capable of firing fixed ammunition." 26 U.S.C. sec.
5845(e).

That language is in the definition. But specifically, since a "rifle" or "shotgun" cannot ever become a "pistol" by definition, a "firearm" that has never been a "rifle" or "shotgun" (like a virgin receiver or pistol-grip only type shotgun) can be designed or redesigned as an AOW.

A "smooth-bore pistol" to which is added a rifled bore, like a slug barrel, is a "Destructive Device" since it has a rifled bore over .5" in diameter.

The Taurus Judge and Thunder 5 revolvers are not NFA since they avoid the AOW definition by being a "pistol" with a rifled bore and the "Destuctive Device" definition by being a pistol having a rifled bore smaller than .5" in diameter.

The definition is what makes me think the idea of a "Smooth-Bore Pistol" would run into the CA "Handgun Safety Law". If it's a pistol, albeit an NFA one, it would likely need to be CA-approved.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieeater View Post
I have a HK SP89 pistol thats a registered CA AW. Would I be able to do this trust thing and then put a K grip or stock on it?
If it is a registered pistol AW, then if was AOW'ed, you'd be able to K-grip it.

Quote:
Or would some state law prevent this?
If it was already an AW, then adding the K-grip doesn't change anything regarding CA AW laws. You just have to be NFA legal to K-grip it.
Quote:
If you put a stock on a pistol does it become a SBR or AOW.
If you put a stock on it, then it is an SBR.
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