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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #641  
Old 07-05-2010, 10:31 AM
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I applaud you, sir. Every time I tried to get past this with an original .510 pistol, I was fought every which way, so I quit. I was planning on going to a Judge, but then I found out they would NOT sell it in Ca. I pray that you can open the way for all the rest of us.
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  #642  
Old 07-05-2010, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rt66paul View Post
I applaud you, sir. Every time I tried to get past this with an original .510 pistol, I was fought every which way, so I quit.
what kind of .510" pistol were you trying to get, and why was it a fight? I've never heard of the .500 Linebaugh handguns being banned in CA?

heck, CA doesn't even care about bore sizes until you get up to .60"


Quote:
I was planning on going to a Judge, but then I found out they would NOT sell it in Ca. I pray that you can open the way for all the rest of us.
there is a way, but it won't be cheap. It would take making the Jugde an AOW, either by swapping out the barrel for a smoothbore barrel, or by adding a VFG to it It would need to be done out of state by an 07FFL/02SOT. That would make it exempt from CA's SBS regs as a registered AOW.

In addition, it would need to be roster-exempt, so it would need to be made into a single-action revolver. I do not know if the lockwork on a Judge can be easily altered into SA status.

As a single-action revolver that is also a registered AOW, I don't see why it couldn't be legally transfered to you in CA.

Some will argue that it is an AW because it is an shotgun with a revolving cylinder, but the Judge does not meet the defintion of a shotgun (not designed to be fired from the shoulder) so I think that it wouldn't meet the definition of a shotgun AW.
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  #643  
Old 07-05-2010, 8:15 PM
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No way was Ca going to allow a shot gun shell to be fired out of a short barrel rifle, smoothbore and if it will fire a shotgun shell, ca considers it a shotgun. Even LEOs can not use one in LA county and I was told across the state. This may have been bad info, we all know that the general public get lied to right and left from Ca officials.

I tried to get an old .410 single shot pistol, similar to a derringer, not a .510 as most of you realize. The .410 pistol was sold to bicyclists in the Sears catalog to protect them from roving dogs, some were single shot and some were double barreled. Calif stopped these a long time ago. It was a weapon that could be concealed and ballistics would not ever apply.

These are great snake guns, but snake shot is the closest we can have in this state. If you have found a way to bypass this prejudice I salute you again.

I tried, but was told that to cut a rifle or shotgun down, you have to get with the BATF, but you can lengthen a handgun. The point was that shortening a long gun, you made it concealable. A handgun is concealable already, so there was nothing wrong with adding a stock. There were a few pistols that were designed with an add on stock, a CZ 27 comes to mind.

here is a russian one:

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg155-e.htm
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  #644  
Old 07-05-2010, 8:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rt66paul View Post

....was told that to cut a rifle or shotgun down, you have to get with the BATF, but you can lengthen a handgun. The point was that shortening a long gun, you made it concealable. A handgun is concealable already, so there was nothing wrong with adding a stock. There were a few pistols that were designed with an add on stock, a CZ 27 comes to mind.
You need ATF approval and tax stamp to put a shoulder stock on a handgun...
.
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  #645  
Old 07-05-2010, 8:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rt66paul View Post
No way was Ca going to allow a shot gun shell to be fired out of a short barrel rifle, smoothbore and if it will fire a shotgun shell, ca considers it a shotgun. Even LEOs can not use one in LA county and I was told across the state. This may have been bad info, we all know that the general public get lied to right and left from Ca officials.

I tried to get an old .410 single shot pistol, similar to a derringer, not a .510 as most of you realize. The .410 pistol was sold to bicyclists in the Sears catalog to protect them from roving dogs, some were single shot and some were double barreled. Calif stopped these a long time ago. It was a weapon that could be concealed and ballistics would not ever apply.
ok, you meant a .410 pistol, not a .510" pistol. There is a separate issue with .510" pistols being potentially Destructive Devices, which is a separate NFA item that I thought you were talking about.

Most likely, it was a rifled bore .45LC/.410 pistol, which the feds just consider a handgun, but CA considers it to be an SBS, which would need a CADOJ dangerous weapon permit (virtually impossible to get). But if that single shot .410 pistol had a smoothbore, then it would be an AOW, and requre a tax stamp to possess. With that tax stamp, you could have owned it in CA without needing a CADOJ dangerous weapons permit, since registered AOWs are exempt from CA's SBS law.

Quote:
These are great snake guns, but snake shot is the closest we can have in this state. If you have found a way to bypass this prejudice I salute you again.
thats what this entire thread is about. About how to legally acqure items like that. People in CA have done exactly what is being talked about in this thread. We even have dealers in CA that sell items like this,

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=293919 .

Quote:
I tried, but was told that to cut a rifle or shotgun down, you have to get with the BATF, but you can lengthen a handgun. The point was that shortening a long gun, you made it concealable.
correct, cutting down a shotgun creates an SBS, which you need to have federal and state permission to do, before you do it. Because CA won't give you permission, so the feds can't give you permission.

But if you start with a non-shotgun, like the PG-only Mossberg 500 Cruiser, it isn't a shotgun (because it was not designed to be fired from the shoulder). It can be made into a handgun, but since it is smoothbore, the feds consider it an AOW, not an SBS. CA would call it an SBS, even though it was never a shotgun, but your federal AOW paperwork is an exemption to CA's SBS regs.



Quote:
A handgun is concealable already, so there was nothing wrong with adding a stock. There were a few pistols that were designed with an add on stock, a CZ 27 comes to mind.

here is a russian one:

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg155-e.htm
incorrect. Adding a stock to a handgun makes it a Short barreled rifle, which is illegal unless you have a SBR tax stamp for it, or you included a 16" barrel to it before you installed the stock (and the OAL was over 26").
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Last edited by ke6guj; 07-05-2010 at 8:45 PM..
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  #646  
Old 07-05-2010, 8:37 PM
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Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
You need ATF approval and tax stamp to put a shoulder stock on a handgun...
.
correct, and before ATF will give you that approval, you need approval from CADOJ to possess that SBR/AW, which they won't normally give you.
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  #647  
Old 07-05-2010, 9:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
correct, and before ATF will give you that approval, you need approval from CADOJ to possess that SBR/AW, which they won't normally give you.
what im still wondering is if there is a way to make an ar15 pistol and then turn it into a sbr? what im thinking would be to do a pistol build w/vertical foregrip to get aow status. then could you get the rest of the paperwork to add a stock?
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  #648  
Old 07-05-2010, 9:27 PM
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then could you get the rest of the paperwork to add a stock?
The AOW part would not be an issue, but there is no exemption from AOW to SBR. So you would need a standard SBR approval from the CA DOJ, which does not happen very often.
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  #649  
Old 07-05-2010, 9:35 PM
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i can always have one in my dreams at least. thanks for the prompt response.
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  #650  
Old 07-05-2010, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
that only applies if he were to loan the NFA firearm to a person to use while not in the owner's presence. He can allow others to shoot his NFA stuff while he is there next to him. As an example, many of those machine guns that are rented during the machine gun shoots are personally owned, and they can let others shoot their stuff legally. Its been that way for the last 76 years.


Now, it may not be kosher for him to go to the range and let his buddies shoot his stuff while he goes to the main office or the pro shop. But as long as he is there on the line, it isn't a problem.
Which is why anyone wanting an NFA firearm should use a trust. Otherwise it's two safes m(Or no one else with the combo), must be present when anyone else handles the firearms, etc. Consider the ramification should a family member grab your AOW out of the safe & use it during a home defense situation?

With a trust anyone named as a trustee may have access. Add children when they become of age & they don't need to sell things off. No CLEO signature required either.
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  #651  
Old 07-05-2010, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by socalblue View Post

Consider the ramification should a family member grab your AOW out of the safe & use it during a home defense situation?
That "no self-defense with an NFA gun" BS needs to have a stake driven through its heart...

.
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  #652  
Old 07-05-2010, 11:03 PM
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That "no self-defense with an NFA gun" BS needs to have a stake driven through its heart...

.
what BS would that be, that a NFA firearm was possessed by someone not allowed to "possess" it (if the owner was not present).

But it would not be BS to suggest that a person use any other legal firearm that they might possess before they use the NFA firearm. Use of the NFA firearm will attract extra attention and may cause a DA to prosecute a case because of the evilness of the gun. Case in point, the Gary Fadden incident, http://www.davehayes.org/2006/02/10/...adden-incident
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  #653  
Old 07-05-2010, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by socalblue View Post
Which is why anyone wanting an NFA firearm should use a trust. Otherwise it's two safes m(Or no one else with the combo), must be present when anyone else handles the firearms, etc. Consider the ramification should a family member grab your AOW out of the safe & use it during a home defense situation?

With a trust anyone named as a trustee may have access. Add children when they become of age & they don't need to sell things off. No CLEO signature required either.
Which is why I named on my Trust every brother and child of mine that even knows about my NFA items. Should I go (die) tomorrow, they are instructed to have a range day and burn up as much of my ammo as they can.

Justin
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  #654  
Old 07-05-2010, 11:21 PM
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what BS would that be, that a NFA firearm was possessed by someone not allowed to "possess" it (if the owner was not present).
No, the BS is

1. One cannot put "self-defense" as a reason for your NFA gun on the application (I'm told), you should put "collector".

2. that an NFA gun cannot in fact be used for self-defense purposes

.
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  #655  
Old 07-05-2010, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
No, the BS is

1. One cannot put "self-defense" as a reason for your NFA gun on the application (I'm told), you should put "collector".
I've never heard of that reason being a reason to deny the form.

"all legal purposes" works just fine.

Heck, people put down all kinds of reasons such as "cause chicks dig short barrels" and the following and got approved


Quote:
2. that an NFA gun cannot in fact be used for self-defense purposes
I'm still not clear if you saying that it is BS (FUD) when people say that you can't use an NFA for self-defense, or that it is actually illegal to use an NFA firearm for self-defense, and that law is BS.
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  #656  
Old 07-05-2010, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
I've never heard of that reason being a reason to deny the form.
Eh, maybe its just FUD, I never ran it down...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
I'm still not clear if you saying that it is BS (FUD) when people say that you can't use an NFA for self-defense, or that it is actually illegal to use an NFA firearm for self-defense, and that law is BS.
Any impediment to using an NFA gun for self-defense is BS.

.
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  #657  
Old 07-05-2010, 11:40 PM
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Any impediment to using an NFA gun for self-defense is BS.

.
right, but are you saying that it is actually illegal, or that it is BS that people are saying that it is illegal?
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  #658  
Old 07-06-2010, 1:28 PM
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It seems that a 26" pump 12 guage with an 18" barrel could be designed, by moving the trigger forward with a 1 piece stock/pistol grip. This could even be made adjustable(but I wouldn't put it to my shoulder. With a forward trigger, the gun could be made in shorter lengths, for different states and a pistol grip(only) model made for those states. Since this would NOT be a semi auto, it could be a pump with a button mag and could have an adjustable forward pistol grip, either vertical or horizonal or somewhere in between.

If you do the math, a legal 18" barrel mossberg would be longer than 26", even with a pistol grip. redesigning the action and keeping it single shot has some merit.

I bet the Israeli gunmakers could do this - they have moved the triggers forward(or the barrels backward) on many rifles

Last edited by rt66paul; 07-06-2010 at 1:33 PM..
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  #659  
Old 07-06-2010, 3:34 PM
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right, but are you saying that it is actually illegal, or that it is BS that people are saying that it is illegal?
No problems so long as the person using the NFA firearm is legally able to do so (One of the best reasons for an NFA trust). There are some potential big time (Multiple felony) issues when a person other than the registered NFA owner uses that firearm (Outside the normal exceptions such as at the range under supervision).

Example: Dad owns a registered AOW & locks it in the safe while away on business travel. Mom end up using the AOW in an otherwise legal self defense situation. BOTH could end up with felony convictions should the DA wish to prosecute. A properly constructed NFA trust precludes that problem (All trustees that are legally able to use the NFA firearms may do so at any time).
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  #660  
Old 07-06-2010, 3:37 PM
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thats the way I understand it, I was just trying to get Guy to clarify his "BS" statement.
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  #661  
Old 07-07-2010, 8:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
ok, you meant a .410 pistol, not a .510" pistol. There is a separate issue with .510" pistols being potentially Destructive Devices, which is a separate NFA item that I thought you were talking about.

Most likely, it was a rifled bore .45LC/.410 pistol, which the feds just consider a handgun, but CA considers it to be an SBS, which would need a CADOJ dangerous weapon permit (virtually impossible to get). But if that single shot .410 pistol had a smoothbore, then it would be an AOW, and requre a tax stamp to possess. With that tax stamp, you could have owned it in CA without needing a CADOJ dangerous weapons permit, since registered AOWs are exempt from CA's SBS law.

thats what this entire thread is about. About how to legally acqure items like that. People in CA have done exactly what is being talked about in this thread. We even have dealers in CA that sell items like this,

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=293919 .

correct, cutting down a shotgun creates an SBS, which you need to have federal and state permission to do, before you do it. Because CA won't give you permission, so the feds can't give you permission.

But if you start with a non-shotgun, like the PG-only Mossberg 500 Cruiser, it isn't a shotgun (because it was not designed to be fired from the shoulder). It can be made into a handgun, but since it is smoothbore, the feds consider it an AOW, not an SBS. CA would call it an SBS, even though it was never a shotgun, but your federal AOW paperwork is an exemption to CA's SBS regs.........
As I remember, it was a .410 pistol and it was a smoothbore. It was from right after 1900. The guy that owned it had it in the family for untold years and it was just a curiosity. It ended up getting taken away by men in black. I don't know if he ever got it back. It might as well have been a nuclear weapon, with the response he got.

I guess owning that was like owning an original Thomson that never got a stamp. What a shame.
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  #662  
Old 07-17-2010, 11:49 AM
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I like the reason for making the AOW-- 'ZOMBIES' ---Claasic!!!! AND it got approved!! that took balls!!
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  #663  
Old 07-17-2010, 8:45 PM
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$200 tax stamp? I thought the AOW was $5.

If the sheriff will sign for form 4 do you really need a trust, or is there other good stuff about a trust?
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  #664  
Old 07-17-2010, 9:28 PM
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to make an AOW, $200. to buy an AOW, $5.

If the sheriff will sign, I'd recommend that, cheaper.
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  #665  
Old 07-17-2010, 10:01 PM
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So, if I get one of these AOWs can I mod it to take a 10 round magazine like the ones that you can put on a Mossberg?
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  #666  
Old 07-17-2010, 11:09 PM
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legally, yes. AFAIK, in real life, no, there isn't enough real estate to install the mag kit.
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  #667  
Old 07-17-2010, 11:47 PM
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If you have an AOW already and move to CA...you can just bring it right? AOWs don't require a 5320.20.
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  #668  
Old 07-17-2010, 11:52 PM
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If you have an AOW already and move to CA...you can just bring it right? AOWs don't require a 5320.20.
right, as long as it is CA-legal, AOW pen guns are not allowed, you can just bring it to CA if you want. No 5320.20 is required for AOWs. However, you submti a permanent move 5320.20 and the NFA branch will approve it for you. They do this so that they can update their records. It also give you a datapoint to show an investigating LEO that it is legal for you to possess it, and that you have federal permission to bring it to CA.

At least one CG'er has done exactly that, got an approved 5320.20 to bring a, stored out-of-state, AOW in CA. CADOJ tried to claim that it was not legal for him to import it into CA, saying it was an illegal SBS in CA. When the guy reiterated that it was an AOW, and exempt from the SBS law, they clammed up. ATF went ahead and approved the 5320.20 because they know that they are legal in CA.
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Old 07-17-2010, 11:55 PM
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What if you had a SBR that was a C&R before you SBR'd it. Is the ATF's opinion still that once you Form 1 it, it no longer is a C&R? I know they were back and forth on this for a bit...but would they approve a 5320.20 in this case?
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Old 07-18-2010, 12:00 AM
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What if you had a SBR that was a C&R before you SBR'd it. Is the ATF's opinion still that once you Form 1 it, it no longer is a C&R? I know they were back and forth on this for a bit...but would they approve a 5320.20 in this case?
you'd have to ask ATF. I been told by others that ATF considers a C&R shotgun that is form 1'ed to be no longer C&R. If it isn't C&R, you have to have a CADOJ dangerous weapons permit in order to get it into CA.
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Old 07-18-2010, 6:49 AM
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$200 tax stamp? I thought the AOW was $5.

If the sheriff will sign for form 4 do you really need a trust, or is there other good stuff about a trust?
A trust protects you in the event of a civil litigation. It is very hard for a trust to be succesfully sued in court and relinquish assets in a judgement. In a personal litigation, your individual assets (like your home, your car, your gun collection) are fair game. I am not a lawyer, but I have personal experience in these matters.
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Old 07-18-2010, 7:29 AM
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A trust protects you in the event of a civil litigation. It is very hard for a trust to be succesfully sued in court and relinquish assets in a judgement. In a personal litigation, your individual assets (like your home, your car, your gun collection) are fair game. I am not a lawyer, but I have personal experience in these matters.
So can I put all my guns in the trust?
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Old 07-18-2010, 8:25 AM
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So can I put all my guns in the trust?
Yes. And it is pretty damn easy too!

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Old 07-18-2010, 9:09 AM
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Okay when I start to get my Serbu I'll start this process too.
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Old 07-18-2010, 10:57 AM
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So can I put all my guns in the trust?
Yes. And it is pretty damn easy too!

Justin
Hrmmm.. Bet you can't move reg'ed AW's to a trust.

But if you could, would this be a way to get around the "owners dead, AW must be relinquished now"?
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Old 07-18-2010, 3:55 PM
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Hrmmm.. Bet you can't move reg'ed AW's to a trust.

But if you could, would this be a way to get around the "owners dead, AW must be relinquished now"?
IIRC, some people put their .50BMG rifles into a trust right after they bought them, and then had the trust send in the registration paperwork.
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Old 07-18-2010, 4:42 PM
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Hrmmm.. Bet you can't move reg'ed AW's to a trust.

But if you could, would this be a way to get around the "owners dead, AW must be relinquished now"?
You know, I didn't bother with my AW's and my trust. Only put my NFA stuff in it. Time to "just do it" I guess.

But every other weapon is just as easy as listing it and getting the papers notarized.

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Old 07-22-2010, 8:59 AM
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Regarding CLEO sign offs you stated a Sheriff, D.A. or a Judge can sign the letter.
Does it have to be the main D.A. or can it be the head D.A. or an assistant D.A.? As far as a Judge can it be any kind of Judge, (Federal, State, traffic court Judge)?
And last question,
for the Sheriff can it be a Captain that Commands the station in the particular city you work in or does it have to be the Sheriff?
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Old 07-22-2010, 1:52 PM
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It has to be a superior court judge, sherriff, police chief or DA. After they refuse or not response, then there is the next tier and so on

Its like reverse chain of command. Make notes, and work from top down. There are lists upon lists of tier/rank listings for this very action when seeking signoffs and not getting a "yes" answer.

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Old 07-22-2010, 3:01 PM
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Regarding CLEO sign offs you stated a Sheriff, D.A. or a Judge can sign the letter.
Does it have to be the main D.A. or can it be the head D.A. or an assistant D.A.? As far as a Judge can it be any kind of Judge, (Federal, State, traffic court Judge)?
And last question,
for the Sheriff can it be a Captain that Commands the station in the particular city you work in or does it have to be the Sheriff?
for exact answers, you'd probably need to ask the NFA branch.

I know in the past, it was stated that judges that oversee felony cases could sign, so no small-claims judges, dunno about traffic. And I don't know how far down the D.A. chain you can go.

Regarding a Captain that commands a sheriff substation, maybe. I know that some people think they are the CLEO in regards to sending in 03FFL apps, and if that was true, then I would assume that they are also CLEO for NFA apps as well. But I would suggest confirming this with the NFA people.


And like Roccobro mentioned, you start at the top and work your way down. You try the actual CLEOs in your area. when they refuse, you call ATF and ask them who else they will accept. you try them and if they all refuse, you contact ATF again and ask for more acceptable signatories.
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