Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > POLITICS, LITIGATION AND ACTIVISM > California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #561  
Old 02-08-2010, 8:25 PM
Roccobro Roccobro is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: By Cal State San Bernardino
Posts: 2,910
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

I've seen where they will even return the check you sent them.

Justin
__________________
[SIZE="4]For any questions contact me by email.
Thanks,
Justin[/SIZE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Sometimes, arguing just for the sake of arguing, can be fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyZRC View Post
no it can't!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
YES IT CAN!
"Pink rifle disease... SPREAD IT!"
Reply With Quote
  #562  
Old 02-08-2010, 8:29 PM
CHS's Avatar
CHS CHS is offline
Moderator Emeritus
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Santa Ana, CA
Posts: 11,329
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scobun View Post
If I send in the paperwork and they say no, am I going to be out $200 or have an unhappy visit from the ATF asking WTF?
Neither. You'll get a rejection letter and then eventually they'll refund your money.
__________________
Please read the Calguns Wiki
Quote:
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
--Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishment"
Reply With Quote
  #563  
Old 02-08-2010, 8:31 PM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is offline
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,266
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roccobro View Post
I've seen where they will even return the check you sent them.

Justin
well, it might not be your check. It would depend on when they deemed it not allowable. All Form 1 apps get sent to WV, where they are quickly looked over to make sure that you are not trying to do something patently illegal, like a Form 1 for a personal machine gun. If they pull your packet right then and send it back, you'd probably get your check back. If you get past that stage, the Form 1 packet is sent to Atlanta, where they enter basic info into the system, note that payment was received and send the check to the bank. The packet is sent back to WV where it gets assigned to an examiner. If, at that point, when the examiner goes over it, they decide to disallow it, your check has already been cashed and you will get a refund check.
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #564  
Old 02-08-2010, 8:36 PM
technique's Avatar
technique technique is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Idaho- don't come here.
Posts: 10,539
iTrader: 77 / 100%
Default

Highly doubt you will see your check back...

I sent my last one in on:1/8/10
I had confirmation on:1/10/10
My check was cashed:1/13/10
__________________
07/02 Out of State FFL

California Uber Alles, California Uber Alles
Uber Alles California, Uber Alles California

I am Governor Jerry Brown, My aura smiles and never frowns, Soon I will be President...
Reply With Quote
  #565  
Old 02-08-2010, 8:48 PM
Roccobro Roccobro is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: By Cal State San Bernardino
Posts: 2,910
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

I've seen it. I have no need to argue with you guys.

Justin
__________________
[SIZE="4]For any questions contact me by email.
Thanks,
Justin[/SIZE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Sometimes, arguing just for the sake of arguing, can be fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyZRC View Post
no it can't!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
YES IT CAN!
"Pink rifle disease... SPREAD IT!"
Reply With Quote
  #566  
Old 02-17-2010, 11:52 AM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is offline
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,266
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

For those in SoCal wanting to buy an AOW like a "Super Shorty", OC Armory now has their SOT and will be stocking the Safey Harbor KEG 12, which is very similar to the Serbu Super Shorty. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=270905

Quote:
Originally Posted by OCArmory View Post
So yesterday was a very exciting day. We received our SOT in the mail. We already ordered Safety Harbor Keg 12's. Right now our focus is going to be AOW's. Hopefully within about 5 weeks we will have inventory in stock for everyone to drool over.
Mike
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #567  
Old 02-17-2010, 11:56 AM
383green's Avatar
383green 383green is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
For those in SoCal wanting to buy an AOW like a "Super Shorty", OC Armory now has their SOT and will be stocking the Safey Harbor KEG 12
Thanks for cross-posting the news into this thread! I rarely venture outside the 2A forum, so I wouldn't have known otherwise.

I'm still curious about the possibility of legally chopping down my old POS double-barreled shotgun (but too lazy to start jumping through hoops at the moment ), so I'm looking forward to seeing any updates about ATF accepting/rejecting applications to build from a C&R in California.
__________________
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
Reply With Quote
  #568  
Old 02-17-2010, 2:07 PM
lorax3's Avatar
lorax3 lorax3 is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Santa Clara
Posts: 4,561
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
For those in SoCal wanting to buy an AOW like a "Super Shorty", OC Armory now has their SOT and will be stocking the Safey Harbor KEG 12, which is very similar to the Serbu Super Shorty.
That is awesome. Great News.
__________________
You think you know, but you have no idea.

If you live in San Diego Please read this thread and apply now to obtain your San Diego License to Carry (CCW).

The information posted herein is not legal advice. If you seek legal advice contact an attorney who is familiar with all the facts of your case.
Reply With Quote
  #569  
Old 02-18-2010, 7:04 PM
wash's Avatar
wash wash is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sillycon valley
Posts: 9,020
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Blog Entries: 13
Default

In another thread people were discussing building pistols from virgin "long gun" receivers, theorizing that if they were never a rifle federally it's ok to make a pistol and it's unclear if doing so would violate any CA laws as long as you make it a dimensionally compliant single shot first and then avoid making a pistol "Assault Weapon".

I wonder if that operation could be cleaned up if you made an AOW?

First, if you have your NFA trust set up properly can you fill out a form 1 and get an AOW tax stamp for a bare receiver?

If you can, now you have a legal AOW and federal paperwork to back it up. Are there any California laws that I might be charged with violating?

I know it can't be a pistol "AW" and it has to be built as a roster exempt single shot first, but if I built an AOW that way, it sounds like I can avoid a lot of roster drama and have an AOW that isn't in any CA database.

The reason I ask this question is because I'm thinking of a Saiga 12 AOW. I heard that someone might be making a reciever that I could purchase normally instead of having to figure out how to bend one from a flat. Since Saiga 12 cruisers don't exist in the U.S., buying a virgin receiver this way seems to be the easiest way to get to a Saiga 12 AOW.
Reply With Quote
  #570  
Old 02-18-2010, 7:35 PM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is offline
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,266
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
First, if you have your NFA trust set up properly can you fill out a form 1 and get an AOW tax stamp for a bare receiver?
yes, you can get approval to make an AOW, even if you have just a bare receiver, even if you haven't even made the receiver yet.

Quote:
If you can, now you have a legal AOW and federal paperwork to back it up. Are there any California laws that I might be charged with violating?

I know it can't be a pistol "AW" and it has to be built as a roster exempt single shot first, but if I built an AOW that way, it sounds like I can avoid a lot of roster drama and have an AOW that isn't in any CA database.
I would say that it needs to be in an AOW configuration. I wouldn't just use AOW paperwork on a AOW registered receiver to try to claim an exemption from 12020 (the SBS and SBR law) if the firearm is not currently an AOW.

Quote:
The reason I ask this question is because I'm thinking of a Saiga 12 AOW. I heard that someone might be making a reciever that I could purchase normally instead of having to figure out how to bend one from a flat. Since Saiga 12 cruisers don't exist in the U.S., buying a virgin receiver this way seems to be the easiest way to get to a Saiga 12 AOW.
It has been opined that that would be legal to do so. Since there are no factory Saiga-12 PG-only "shotguns" imported into the states, or made here, you would need to demill an existing S12 and either roll your own receiver, or buy one from someone like NDS (if they made one), and then you could make an AOW from it, still making sure that you don't violate the shotgun or handgun AW regs.
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #571  
Old 02-18-2010, 8:09 PM
Rooftop Voter's Avatar
Rooftop Voter Rooftop Voter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 826
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

edit!

Last edited by Rooftop Voter; 02-18-2010 at 8:10 PM.. Reason: wrong forum!
Reply With Quote
  #572  
Old 02-21-2010, 11:15 AM
lorax3's Avatar
lorax3 lorax3 is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Santa Clara
Posts: 4,561
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Another cross-post for those who missed it.

Cadiz Gun is now making Saiga AOW's and should be willing to send them into CA once they figure out all the legalities.

CLICK HERE FOR MORE DETAILS
__________________
You think you know, but you have no idea.

If you live in San Diego Please read this thread and apply now to obtain your San Diego License to Carry (CCW).

The information posted herein is not legal advice. If you seek legal advice contact an attorney who is familiar with all the facts of your case.
Reply With Quote
  #573  
Old 02-21-2010, 6:11 PM
wilit's Avatar
wilit wilit is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: 37.78514° North 122.40100° West
Posts: 4,976
iTrader: 39 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
For those in SoCal wanting to buy an AOW like a "Super Shorty", OC Armory now has their SOT and will be stocking the Safey Harbor KEG 12, which is very similar to the Serbu Super Shorty. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=270905
That is worth the drive from Nor-Cal to So-Cal (twice).
__________________
"If a man hasn't found something worth dying for, he isn't fit to live." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
"You have to be willing to swing your nuts like a deadblow hammer to put these jackasses in their place." - AJAX22
"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry." - William F Buckley Jr.
Reply With Quote
  #574  
Old 02-21-2010, 11:30 PM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is offline
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,266
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by C9X19 View Post
oaklander's link about the ATF change doesn't work anymore.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...&postcount=487

Maybe they changed their mind? I guess I could be reading waaay too much into it.
nope, they didn't change their mind, they changed their website

Quote:
We are sorry, but the page you requested wasn’t found at this location.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has created a brand new ATF website, and it’s possible that the page you were looking for has been moved.
And it was moved, http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curi...#modifications
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #575  
Old 02-22-2010, 8:40 PM
wilit's Avatar
wilit wilit is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: 37.78514° North 122.40100° West
Posts: 4,976
iTrader: 39 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
nope, they didn't change their mind, they changed their website
Speaking of changing their minds, how does ATF get away with not allowing Form 1 AOW/SBS conversions on C&R's? Were they just mistaken for the past couple of decades they've been approving them? Cutting down the barrel of a 1950 shotgun doesn't change it's age.
__________________
"If a man hasn't found something worth dying for, he isn't fit to live." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
"You have to be willing to swing your nuts like a deadblow hammer to put these jackasses in their place." - AJAX22
"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry." - William F Buckley Jr.
Reply With Quote
  #576  
Old 02-22-2010, 10:02 PM
adamsreeftank's Avatar
adamsreeftank adamsreeftank is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,265
iTrader: 28 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilit View Post
Speaking of changing their minds, how does ATF get away with not allowing Form 1 AOW/SBS conversions on C&R's? Were they just mistaken for the past couple of decades they've been approving them? Cutting down the barrel of a 1950 shotgun doesn't change it's age.
From the ATF site:

Quote:
The definition for curio or relic (“C & R”) firearms found in 27 CFR § 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.

It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts, non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable—for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.
Odd how their "conclusions" seem to carry the power of law. Wonder if the whole "underground regulation" concept applies. It would be nice if the CGF had the funds and inclination to look into this.
Reply With Quote
  #577  
Old 02-23-2010, 1:58 AM
Roccobro Roccobro is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: By Cal State San Bernardino
Posts: 2,910
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

And since when is a sporting Rem 870 from the 1950's (AND NEVER IMPORTED) considered "military" to be included in this shenanigan?

Quote:
ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration
Justin
__________________
[SIZE="4]For any questions contact me by email.
Thanks,
Justin[/SIZE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Sometimes, arguing just for the sake of arguing, can be fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyZRC View Post
no it can't!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
YES IT CAN!
"Pink rifle disease... SPREAD IT!"
Reply With Quote
  #578  
Old 03-02-2010, 4:33 PM
dakobster81 dakobster81 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 474
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

tag...this thread is long and confusing...someone summarize this AOW legality/process please...
Reply With Quote
  #579  
Old 03-18-2010, 1:52 PM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is offline
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,266
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Turners is selling a Remington 870 PG-only "shotgun" that would make a nice AOW host this weekend. As some of you may know, Remington PG-only host guns are hard to find. They are normally a "premier" dealer-only item, and it has been mentioned that they stopped even offering them earlier this year.

Anyways, here is the listing:
Remington 870 Express Tactical 12 Ga - 6+1 Capacity, Special Make-Up With Pistol Grip, Must Be 21 To Purchase.Item# 111448
Regular Price $459.99 – Now Only $419.98!
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #580  
Old 03-18-2010, 9:53 PM
Seesm's Avatar
Seesm Seesm is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,921
iTrader: 50 / 100%
Default

Can my motorcycle business (incorperated) do this? I woudl like a SBS and to be able to build a SBR not just a pistol Ar...
__________________
Machining, Fabrication, Welding (All metals), Mini 14 / Mini 30 Magazine locks, AR15/M16/AR10 Sling loop plates, Muzzle brakes, Motorcycle parts, Bobcat tractor work.

DefenseIndustries.US
Auburn, CA
Reply With Quote
  #581  
Old 03-18-2010, 10:13 PM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is offline
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,266
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seesm View Post
Can my motorcycle business (incorperated) do this?
yes, ATF allows a corporation to own NFA firearms, which in in CA is basically just AOWs now.

Quote:
I woudl like a SBS and to be able to build a SBR not just a pistol Ar...
based on current ATF opinion, you would need to find an SBS or SBR that was made into an SBS/SBR 50+ years ago, or is listed as a C&R SBS/SBR. They aren't approving Form 1 apps for SBS/SBR on C&R host guns anymore.
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #582  
Old 04-18-2010, 6:48 AM
RomanDad's Avatar
RomanDad RomanDad is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: 92 acres of free Kentuckiana
Posts: 3,482
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quick question. If a Serbu is an AOW because it has a smooth bore and can't be fired from the shoulder, wouldn't a Taurus Judge be one as well? Could this be a way to get a very popular pistol that California won't let us have for just $5 over MSRP?
__________________
Life is too short to drive a Ferrari...


Last edited by RomanDad; 04-18-2010 at 6:51 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #583  
Old 04-18-2010, 10:20 AM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is offline
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,266
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanDad View Post
Quick question. If a Serbu is an AOW because it has a smooth bore and can't be fired from the shoulder, wouldn't a Taurus Judge be one as well?
the Serbu Super Shorty is an AOW because it is a smoothbore pistol that has never been a shotgun. It is the smoothbore pistol status that makes it an AOW.

The Taurus Judge has a rifled barrel, not a smooth barrel, so it isnt a AOW for that reason. If you wanted to have an 07FFL/02SOT swap out the rifled barrel for a smooth bore barrel, then it would be an AOW. Or, a VFG could be added to the stock Judge and make it an AOW. At that point, it would be CA legal, assuming that they don't call it a AW per "shotgun with a revolving cylinder". I opin that it isnt' a shotgun (not designed to be firede from the shoulder so it doesn't meet the definition of a shotgun) so it can't meet the prohibition of a "shotgun with a revolving cylinder", but I'd prefer to hear from The Right People before I went forward with that. In addition, the Roster applies to anything with a barrel <16", so you'd have to deal with that as well.

Quote:
Could this be a way to get a very popular pistol that California won't let us have for just $5 over MSRP?
if it were only that easy. At SHOT, I joked with the Taurus reps that they needed to offer an AOW version of the Judge for us in CA.
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #584  
Old 04-18-2010, 11:51 AM
RomanDad's Avatar
RomanDad RomanDad is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: 92 acres of free Kentuckiana
Posts: 3,482
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
the Serbu Super Shorty is an AOW because it is a smoothbore pistol that has never been a shotgun. It is the smoothbore pistol status that makes it an AOW.

The Taurus Judge has a rifled barrel, not a smooth barrel, so it isnt a AOW for that reason. If you wanted to have an 07FFL/02SOT swap out the rifled barrel for a smooth bore barrel, then it would be an AOW. Or, a VFG could be added to the stock Judge and make it an AOW. At that point, it would be CA legal, assuming that they don't call it a AW per "shotgun with a revolving cylinder". I opin that it isnt' a shotgun (not designed to be firede from the shoulder so it doesn't meet the definition of a shotgun) so it can't meet the prohibition of a "shotgun with a revolving cylinder", but I'd prefer to hear from The Right People before I went forward with that. In addition, the Roster applies to anything with a barrel <16", so you'd have to deal with that as well.

if it were only that easy. At SHOT, I joked with the Taurus reps that they needed to offer an AOW version of the Judge for us in CA.
I didnt realize the judge had a rifled bore.... That pretty much answers that. It was worth a shot. (no pun intended).
__________________
Life is too short to drive a Ferrari...

Reply With Quote
  #585  
Old 04-18-2010, 5:03 PM
cmth cmth is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 519
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

You could still convert the Judge into an AOW without needing to replace the barrel for a smoothbore. Smoothbore pistols are automatically classified as AOWs, but nearly any firearm that is not shoulder fired can be converted into an AOW. "Converting" in this case does not involve physically altering the firearm, but changing it from a Title I firearm into a Title II firearm through the ATF Form 1, Application to Make and Register a Firearm. If one were to "convert" a Glock pistol into an AOW, one could legally attach a forward pistol grip to the gun, but not a buttstock. That would require converting the pistol into an SBR. The only practical benefit of converting a Judge into an AOW would be to possibly get around California's short-barreled shotgun definition, which does not require the firearm to have a shoulder stock to be considered an SBS, but to merely be able to fire a fixed shotgun shell with a barrel shorter than 18". Registered AOWs are exempt from being defined as SBSes in California. Personally, I do not find the Judge to be worth all of the hassle necessary to legally own one in this state. That Witness Protection AOW is another story.
__________________
Libertas aut Mors
Reply With Quote
  #586  
Old 04-18-2010, 5:14 PM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is offline
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,266
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmth View Post
You could still convert the Judge into an AOW without needing to replace the barrel for a smoothbore. Smoothbore pistols are automatically classified as AOWs, but nearly any firearm that is not shoulder fired can be converted into an AOW. "Converting" in this case does not involve physically altering the firearm, but changing it from a Title I firearm into a Title II firearm through the ATF Form 1, Application to Make and Register a Firearm. If one were to "convert" a Glock pistol into an AOW, one could legally attach a forward pistol grip to the gun, but not a buttstock. That would require converting the pistol into an SBR.
correct, installing a VFG would make it an AOW as well. The question would be, does the VFG always have to say on the firearm to keep it in AOW status? We could have an 07/02 install a VFG to a Judge, file the Form 2 to register it, and then have it Form 4'ed to the end user. But if the VFG is removed, is it still an AOW that qualifies for the SBS exemption?

We can't Form 1 one in CA since until the Form 1 is approved, we'd have a stock Judge and that would be illegal in CA (unless you were able to disassemble it sufficiantly and dispose of enough parts to avoid constructive possession of an SBS) .

Quote:
The only practical benefit of converting a Judge into an AOW would be to possibly get around California's short-barreled shotgun definition, which does not require the firearm to have a shoulder stock to be considered an SBS, but to merely be able to fire a fixed shotgun shell with a barrel shorter than 18". Registered AOWs are exempt from being defined as SBSes in California. Personally, I do not find the Judge to be worth all of the hassle necessary to legally own one in this state. That Witness Protection AOW is another story.
I wouldn't disagree with that. Seems like a lot of work to own a marginal firearm.
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #587  
Old 04-23-2010, 4:23 PM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is offline
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,266
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
For those in SoCal wanting to buy an AOW like a "Super Shorty", OC Armory now has their SOT and will be stocking the Safey Harbor KEG 12, which is very similar to the Serbu Super Shorty. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=270905
And the Super Shorties have arrived!!!
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=293919
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #588  
Old 04-28-2010, 10:17 PM
DREADNOUGHT78's Avatar
DREADNOUGHT78 DREADNOUGHT78 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Sacramento CA
Posts: 4,196
iTrader: 430 / 100%
Default

Tagged.
Reply With Quote
  #589  
Old 04-28-2010, 10:21 PM
383green's Avatar
383green 383green is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DREADNOUGHT78 View Post
Tagged.
Please don't tag threads this way. It clutters the thread with useless trash, and it sends a notification to everybody who has already subscribed to the thread, and then they all need to go check the thread just to make sure they'll get another notification if somebody later posts something of value. Just use the "Thread Tools -> Subscribe to this Thread" menu item.
__________________
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
Reply With Quote
  #590  
Old 04-28-2010, 10:34 PM
beemaze's Avatar
beemaze beemaze is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Der Nationalsozialistische Republik von Kalifornia
Posts: 2,061
iTrader: 97 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 383green View Post
Please don't tag threads this way. It clutters the thread with useless trash, and it sends a notification to everybody who has already subscribed to the thread, and then they all need to go check the thread just to make sure they'll get another notification if somebody later posts something of value. Just use the "Thread Tools -> Subscribe to this Thread" menu item.
FYI: Subscribing to a thread is impossible using the iPhone format....
__________________

The 2nd Amendment - The Original Homeland Security


WTB Colt Woodsman's, WWI/II 1911's, Walthers: P4 or P38 / IV (German or French), PP Super .380, PPK (German or French), TP, TPH (German only), S&W 547 9mm, Any DA .22 Magnum revolver. Colt .22 Diamondbacks, Courier, Banker's Spl.


FREE NRA FREEDOM ASSOCIATE MEMBERSHIP - CLICK BELOW
https://www.nrahq.org/FreedomAssoc/default.asp
Reply With Quote
  #591  
Old 04-28-2010, 10:37 PM
383green's Avatar
383green 383green is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 4,320
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by beemaze View Post
FYI: Subscribing to a thread is impossible using the iPhone format....
...and quite easy on the iPhone using the normal format.
__________________
Mark J. Blair, NF6X
Reply With Quote
  #592  
Old 04-28-2010, 10:43 PM
ke6guj's Avatar
ke6guj ke6guj is offline
Moderator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 909
Posts: 23,266
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by beemaze View Post
FYI: Subscribing to a thread is impossible using the iPhone format....
then why don't those that use iPhones contact artherd and see if the iPhone format can be updated to include a "subscribe" button instead of cluttering threads with TAG?
__________________
Jack



Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #593  
Old 04-29-2010, 7:51 AM
Rudolf the Red's Avatar
Rudolf the Red Rudolf the Red is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Redding, CA
Posts: 1,300
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

How do I switch back to iphone view on my Kindle? I tried Normal View and it is too slow. Now I can't get back. ACK!
__________________

NRA Benefactor Life Member
01 Dealer 3xGuns Redding, CA
US Army MP Corps Veteran
NRA Pistol Coach Level 3

I am always looking for Beretta D models in 9mm or a Compact Type M.
Reply With Quote
  #594  
Old 04-29-2010, 7:55 AM
Roccobro Roccobro is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: By Cal State San Bernardino
Posts: 2,910
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

How do I get this thread back on topic? Maybe if I mail Artherd about it...

Justin
__________________
[SIZE="4]For any questions contact me by email.
Thanks,
Justin[/SIZE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Sometimes, arguing just for the sake of arguing, can be fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyZRC View Post
no it can't!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
YES IT CAN!
"Pink rifle disease... SPREAD IT!"
Reply With Quote
  #595  
Old 04-29-2010, 11:45 PM
izrafil izrafil is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
yes, ATF allows a corporation to own NFA firearms, which in in CA is basically just AOWs now.

based on current ATF opinion, you would need to find an SBS or SBR that was made into an SBS/SBR 50+ years ago, or is listed as a C&R SBS/SBR. They aren't approving Form 1 apps for SBS/SBR on C&R host guns anymore.
This sucks!
Reply With Quote
  #596  
Old 05-07-2010, 7:12 PM
RomanDad's Avatar
RomanDad RomanDad is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: 92 acres of free Kentuckiana
Posts: 3,482
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Slightly off topic.... But its a general (non California specific) NFA question.

I know in states that allow them, one can purchase a regular rifle, get the proper tax stamp, and turn it into an SBR by shortening the barrel.

My question is, can one purchase a pistol, get the tax stamp, and attach a shoulder stock to it to also make an SBR?
__________________
Life is too short to drive a Ferrari...

Reply With Quote
  #597  
Old 05-07-2010, 7:16 PM
trashman's Avatar
trashman trashman is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The Great Valley
Posts: 3,787
iTrader: 34 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanDad View Post
My question is, can one purchase a pistol, get the tax stamp, and attach a shoulder stock to it to also make an SBR?
I think (in free states where it's legal) you still have to pay an additional tax stamp to 'manufacture' an SBR.

--Neill
__________________
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee126/northslope/2011__orig.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #598  
Old 05-07-2010, 7:22 PM
CHS's Avatar
CHS CHS is offline
Moderator Emeritus
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Santa Ana, CA
Posts: 11,329
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanDad View Post
Slightly off topic.... But its a general (non California specific) NFA question.

I know in states that allow them, one can purchase a regular rifle, get the proper tax stamp, and turn it into an SBR by shortening the barrel.

My question is, can one purchase a pistol, get the tax stamp, and attach a shoulder stock to it to also make an SBR?
Yup. It's the exact same process as shortening a rifle. Same forms, same $200 stamp.
__________________
Please read the Calguns Wiki
Quote:
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
--Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishment"
Reply With Quote
  #599  
Old 05-07-2010, 7:26 PM
RomanDad's Avatar
RomanDad RomanDad is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: 92 acres of free Kentuckiana
Posts: 3,482
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
I think (in free states where it's legal) you still have to pay an additional tax stamp to 'manufacture' an SBR.

--Neill
I know you have to pay the taxman to make an SBR from a rifle...

What Im not sure of is if youre even allowed to manufacture by the ATF (tax or no tax) an SBR from a firearm originally manufactured as a pistol?
__________________
Life is too short to drive a Ferrari...

Reply With Quote
  #600  
Old 05-07-2010, 7:28 PM
Dump1567's Avatar
Dump1567 Dump1567 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,220
iTrader: 54 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanDad View Post
I know you have to pay the taxman to make an SBR from a rifle...

What Im not sure of is if youre even allowed to manufacture by the ATF (tax or no tax) an SBR from a firearm originally manufactured as a pistol?
Yes, a Form 1 would cover that:

Application to make and register a firearm.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf

This is what guys do with their AR pistols in free America when they want to add a stock.
__________________
Watch & Pray

Last edited by Dump1567; 05-07-2010 at 7:32 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 8:53 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.