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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #361  
Old 10-23-2008, 4:29 PM
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Thanks, Jack, your explanations are very good. Buying as a C&R licensee eliminates the need to transfer through a local dealer but does not exempt the buyer from the CLEO sign-off, while buying as a trust eliminates the need for a CLEO sign-off but does not exempt the buyer from needing to transfer through a dealer. The two paths appear to be mutually-exclusive.

So, this makes me wonder... can a trust obtain a C&R FFL?
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  #362  
Old 10-23-2008, 4:48 PM
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Who all in addition to a sheriff or PD chief can sign off on it? It seems I remember that there are a few other the CLEO that can do it.
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  #363  
Old 10-23-2008, 4:51 PM
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So, this makes me wonder... can a trust obtain a C&R FFL?
If it were that easy.

Unfortunately, no, a trust can't get a C&R FFL. IIRC, a trust is considered a person per the NFA, but not per the GCA. A corp can get a C&R FFL, but CA's yearly corp fees make that a non-starter for most people.
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  #364  
Old 10-23-2008, 4:54 PM
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Who all in addition to a sheriff or PD chief can sign off on it? It seems I remember that there are a few other the CLEO that can do it.
Per the instructions on the Form 4, PD chief, County Sherriff, Head of State Police, a state or local district attorney or prosecutor having jurisdiction in the area of residence, or other person acceptable to the ATF.

"other person" acceptable gives them wide latitude. I think I've heard about judges being able to sign as well.
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  #365  
Old 10-23-2008, 5:48 PM
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Per the instructions on the Form 4, PD chief, County Sherriff, Head of State Police, a state or local district attorney or prosecutor having jurisdiction in the area of residence, or other person acceptable to the ATF.

"other person" acceptable gives them wide latitude. I think I've heard about judges being able to sign as well.
I have been thinking about trying to go this rout to avoid the cost of setting up a trust. The worst they can do is say no.
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  #366  
Old 10-23-2008, 7:58 PM
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Unless you really wanted it to be a .55 Boyes, you'd be better finding a converted .50BMG Boyes. Those should be exempt from the CA .50BMG rifle ban as a C&R.

I am a pure-ist and collector. I want the .55 in .55!
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  #367  
Old 10-26-2008, 9:40 PM
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can i take this and make a SBS or just an AOW with it?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=114099353
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  #368  
Old 10-26-2008, 10:15 PM
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looking at that, it has a stock, so it can never be an AOW. An AOW can only be made from a firearm that has never had a shoulder stock(combo guns excepted).

You should be able to SBS it.
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  #369  
Old 10-27-2008, 1:09 AM
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Ok I see 38 pages here, is there a simple list of what I need to do to make one of my old C&R shotguns or rifles into a SBS or SBR? What app's I need in what order to submit? Is there an overall length I can cut that old double barrel shotgun down to? I would really like to make an old antique/C&R Winchester model 92 into a 12"-14" lever action .44 special pop gun. Or cut an old C&R pump shotgun down to like 12 inch barrel. Is there a thread that already has a step by step procedure lined out for us? Any help greatly appreciated.I think I can get my app signed off by a local connection I have but if that doesn't happen I would do the trust. Thanks!!
Matt
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  #370  
Old 10-27-2008, 1:16 AM
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So my next question would be can I put my new SBS on my CA CCW? :~) There's room for up to four guns on mine, I mean I would have to drop one off but come on a pistol gripped 12 inch barrel shotty in a nice custom ITW holster, cool!

Ok I was just kidding with this post but I really want to make what I discussed above.
Thanks
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  #371  
Old 10-27-2008, 8:49 AM
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Ok I see 38 pages here
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  #372  
Old 10-27-2008, 10:48 AM
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Ok I see 38 pages here, is there a simple list of what I need to do to make one of my old C&R shotguns or rifles into a SBS or SBR?
Why would you take someone's word on the internet when it could send you to jail? If you read the 38 pages, you would have a much better understanding of the matter....

However, quoting myself: "A C&R shoulder-fired shotgun can apparently have the barrel shortened (and/or the entire gun shortened) to otherwise-illegal length(s) under CA law because its C&R and has a blanket exemption. I believe it still needs federal paper as a SBS."

I think SBR would be similar.

Edit in: I'd spend some $ to get an opinion letter from a knowledgeable attorney before I put myself on the line with something cutting-edge like this...

Last edited by GuyW; 10-27-2008 at 2:55 PM..
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  #373  
Old 10-27-2008, 11:46 AM
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So thanks for the smart *** replies first...jeeze guys lighten up, real simple question here. I just want a basic rundown as Iam sure everyone else that reads this thread would also love to see. I already have a basic understanding, there is alot of garbage in this thread that does not pertain to my question.

So step one would be getting a C&R shotgun/rifle that you want to cut down.

Step two would be to do the paperwork, get a sig from your local law enforcement or other person mentioned like the DA or a local Judge.Or do the trust.

Apply for the Tax stamp and pay the fee, get approval.

Then cut down and mark the gun?

Is that basically it? Lets get a step by step process defined here to help everyone do it as right as possible.Thanks for the help, I guess....
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  #374  
Old 10-27-2008, 11:47 AM
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You think having all of the replies displayed on one page makes it any shorter to read? Real bright man, thanks!
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  #375  
Old 10-27-2008, 12:02 PM
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Hmm, something like the AW ID flowchart that covers AOW/SBS/SBR laws in CA might be nice to have.
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  #376  
Old 10-27-2008, 12:07 PM
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You think having all of the replies displayed on one page makes it any shorter to read?
Yes.
You don't have to wait for each page to load.
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  #377  
Old 10-27-2008, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knifemaker View Post
So step one would be getting a C&R shotgun/rifle that you want to cut down.

Step two would be to do the paperwork, get a sig from your local law enforcement or other person mentioned like the DA or a local Judge.Or do the trust.

Apply for the Tax stamp and pay the fee, get approval.

Then cut down and mark the gun?
that is the method that has gotten approved Form 1s.

Quote:
Is that basically it? Lets get a step by step process defined here to help everyone do it as right as possible.Thanks for the help, I guess....
I thought the basic prosess was laid out in the OP.
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  #378  
Old 10-27-2008, 2:22 PM
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Yes.
You don't have to wait for each page to load.
That is not a problem I have.....
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  #379  
Old 10-27-2008, 2:33 PM
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Quote:
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So thanks for the smart *** replies first...jeeze guys lighten up, real simple question here. I just want a basic rundown as Iam sure everyone else that reads this thread would also love to see. I already have a basic understanding, there is alot of garbage in this thread that does not pertain to my question.
There is a reason you got some smart-*** replies. You didn't read the first few posts in this thread.

The VERY FIRST post in this thread tells you everything you need to know, including PC, and what Forms you need and in what order you have to do everything.

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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
Do you want an AOW or SBS/SBR in CA?

Well, if you look at the CA penal code, there are a couple exemptions to the AOW/SBS/SBR prohibitions in 12020. A couple of the 12020 exemptions do not require CA DOJ permission to acquire an AOW/SBS/SBR, just Federal NFA permission. If we follow the pertinent code (cleaned up to remove non-relevant code) regarding short barrel shotguns and rifles, we see the following:

12001.5 basically state that SBS/SBR are illegal unless allowed per 12020.

12020a basically reiterates that AOW/SBS/SBR are illegal with the following exemptions.

12020b lists exemptions to the prohibitions in 12001.5 and 12020a.

12020b2 allows possession if you get a permit from the CA DOJ per 12095.
12020b7 allows possession if the firearm is a C&R as defined by the NFA and is properly registered per the NFA.
12020b8 allows possession if the firearm is an AOW (with the exception of pen guns) as defined by the NFA and is properly registered per the NFA.


This is the code pertaining to DOJ-issued permits, which, as long as we comply with 12020b7/8, we are exempted from. So, if we are exempt ourselves from 12095 by complying with 12020b7/8, we still need comply with the NFA. We do that by submitting in duplicate, 2 sets of the NFA Form 1 or Form 4 along with 2 sets of fingerprints and photos. You will also need to pay the transfer fee for the tax stamp. The stamp costs $200 for any Form 1 (application to make an NFA weapon such as an AOW, SBS, or SBR) or a Form 4 (application to transfer a SBS or SBR). An AOW on a Form 4 transfers for $5 instead of $200.

Part of the process is to get your CLEO to sign-off on your application. The CLEO is the Chief Law Enforcement Officer of your area, usually your Sheriff or Chief of Police. Other people are also acceptable to do signoffs per the ATF, such as the District Attorney or Judges. If the CLEO is unwilling to sign-off, which they can refuse to do for any reason, there are other ways to get an approved Form 1/4 without a CLEO sign-off.

Those ways would include submitting the Form1/4 using a Corporation or Trust. As a legal entity, they are not required to get a CLEO sign-off or submit fingerprints or photos. When you submit your Form 1/4 application, you will need to submit your Corp/Trust documents to prove that it is a legal entity.

The ATF will do a background check on you and if you pass, which if you can buy a regular gun, you should, they will mark the Form 1/4 approved, retain one of the Forms in the ATF's files, and attach a cancelled tax stamp to the other Form. That Form with the cancelled tax stamp will be returned to you as your "permission slip" from the ATF showing that you are legal.

There may be a couple minor points I missed along the way, but the overall procedure is laid out.

Now that we have the legal requirements laid out, we can get into the fun stuff. What can we do with this info? Well, once we know what we want, we either build our own 12020b7/8-exempt NFA firearm on a Form 1, or find a local Class 3 dealer that is willing to work with us to transfer the 12020b7/8-exempt firearm on a Form 4 to us.

Under 12020b8, we can build/buy an AOW, which are weapons that don’t really fall into the pistol, rifle, or shotgun mold. The most common example would be the short-barrel shotgun-type weapons that don't have a shoulder-stock and have never had a shoulder-stock. An Example would be the Serbu Super-Shorty. Some Combo guns with a shotgun and rifle barrels less than 18" are AOW. Firing Briefcases in which you can shoot the gun from inside the briefcase are AOW.

Pen guns fall are AOW, but they don't fall under the 12020b8 exemption. They are specifically excluded from the 12020b8 exemption. But other types of gadget guns like cane/crutch/flashlight guns should be exempt.

Under 12020b7, if we want a SBS or SBR, it needs to be a curio & relic as defined by the ATF. A C&R is defined as:


If you find an existing C&R SBS/SBR, you can transfer it on a Form4. For CA and Michigan (has a similar law requiring C&R SBS/SBR), The ATF has approved the making of an SBS/SBR on a Form 1 out of existing C&R firearms.

These exemptions only apply to AOW/SBS/SBR. There are no C&R exemptions for Machineguns, DDs, or AWs. There is a C&R exemption for 50BMG rifles. CA’s DD rules start at .60”, so if you wanted a DD between .51” and .60”, you would only need to get ATF approval, not CA DOJ.

The ATF will not approve any transfer that would violate state law.

This is not legal advice. I am not a lawyer, and definitely am not your lawyer.


edit:
The following are C&R if made before 1957:
Remington 870, look for serial numbers under 572,000 with no letter prefix per Remington phone call. Do not use barrel codes, as they are not 100% accurate.
Ithaca M37, look for serial numbers under 704,000.
Other older shotgun designs that were discontinued before 1957.

AOW-legal hosts include Mossberg Cruiser PG-only shotguns or Remington 870 model 24823. Don't know of other modern shotguns sold with PG-only.

New AOW option is a fixed-mag pistol build like a AK, AR, or HK51 with a Vertical Forward Grip. With a fixed-mag, it is not an AW and you can get an AOW Form 1 to put a VFG on it.

Here is a link to a CA attorney offering NFA trusts.
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  #380  
Old 10-27-2008, 9:34 PM
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I was tryin to put together a simple bullet points list of what needs to be done without all the extra stuff in the first post. You know just an easy check off sheet for everyone to go by, without all the legaleezed confusion. I guess thats a little too hard for you to see though....Thanks again for nothing, except for stating the obvious which was not quite what we were looking for.
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  #381  
Old 10-27-2008, 9:47 PM
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I was tryin to put together a simple bullet points list of what needs to be done without all the extra stuff in the first post. You know just an easy check off sheet for everyone to go by, without all the legaleezed confusion.
There is no easy way to be legal if you don't understand all that confusing legal stuff.
You are dealing with multiple layers of goverment regulations and all of them are enforced differently by different 3 letter agencies.

Deal with it, or don't, but there's no shortcut around it.
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  #382  
Old 10-27-2008, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knifemaker View Post
I was tryin to put together a simple bullet points list of what needs to be done without all the extra stuff in the first post. You know just an easy check off sheet for everyone to go by, without all the legaleezed confusion. I guess thats a little too hard for you to see though....Thanks again for nothing, except for stating the obvious which was not quite what we were looking for.
I think that attitude is uncalled for towards someone that was trying to be helpful. If this is something that you are interested in doing, you should be prepared to spend hours researching this stuff for yourself. Do not take anyone else’s word for it unless it is a lawyer that you have paid to do the research for you that will walk you through step by step what all of the possible implications are. You are dealing with a very complex subject here and the stakes are very high if you mess up.
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  #383  
Old 10-27-2008, 10:53 PM
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Say what you want, there's no getting around the fact that this thread has become so long that it is essentially useless. Sure there's some good info here, but for a guy to come here and have to read though all 40 pages, just to get the kind of information you could easily fit on one page, is ridiculous. Why make every newcomer who wants to build an AOW shotty sift though hundreds of posts, most of which are worthless? Somebody needs to sum up the IMPORTANT info on this thread, dump the 90% of it that's crap, and repost it as a sticky. Get with the program here folks.
Or they could just read the first post...
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  #384  
Old 10-28-2008, 9:21 AM
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Originally Posted by blackrazor View Post
Say what you want, there's no getting around the fact that this thread has become so long that it is essentially useless. Sure there's some good info here, but for a guy to come here and have to read though all 40 pages, just to get the kind of information you could easily fit on one page, is ridiculous. Why make every newcomer who wants to build an AOW shotty sift though hundreds of posts, most of which are worthless? Somebody needs to sum up the IMPORTANT info on this thread, dump the 90% of it that's crap, and repost it as a sticky. Get with the program here folks.
I guess you didn't even attempt to read the 55 page AR15.com thread on just the Trust issues then......

Since you suggested it, why don't YOU read the 40 pages, summarize it in a ONE paragraph post so other instant gratification gun owners can go down the "check list" and get what they want? Of course this is all stemming from a user that can just "can get my app signed off by a local connection" and doesn't even need any of the "check-list" this thread goes over and is impatient.




I do see in the near future some SBS wannabe's getting put in the .Fed and F*ing up this misunderstood way for us to get the "good stuff" here in CA. Thanks in advance for not wanting to understand and needing others to tell you what to do instead of thinking for yourself. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I have read every single post on this topic here, and on AR15.com and it is WELL worth it if you cannot afford a lawyer now OR later for some plastic/metal/wood "toy". And yes, I have interviewed people in Federal custody that their only crime (in a distinguished LE carrier filled life) was to possess a gun they shouldn't have!

Make no mistake, this topic goes beyond finding the "off-list list" of 2006 to get a cool atypical CA type gun.

Peace.

Justin
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  #385  
Old 10-28-2008, 11:19 AM
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This thread is less than 400 posts, if you can't be bothered to read it in its entirety, I'm sorry for you. But you need to be able to understand this forwards and backwards before you jump in.

That AR15.com trust thread is over 1200 posts, IIRC.

Some of us have been reading the various NFA forums for years learning about the process in an attempt to understand it, its not just a "follow this list" kind of deal.
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  #386  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:24 PM
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One year update:

AFAIK, there are around a half-dozen new CA-legal NFA firearms in the hands of the public, with more on the way.
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Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

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Old 01-16-2009, 1:41 PM
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ke6guj, let me just get the clear summary here. Our NFA options are:
  • C&R SBRs / SBSs
  • Non-pen-gun AOWs

And that's it, right? Not that that's bad; I just wish I could somehow get my modern RAW into an SBR. But there are some AOWs I'm interested in too.
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Old 01-16-2009, 1:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CCWFacts View Post
ke6guj, let me just get the clear summary here. Our NFA options are:
  • C&R SBRs / SBSs
  • Non-pen-gun AOWs

And that's it, right? Not that that's bad; I just wish I could somehow get my modern RAW into an SBR. But there are some AOWs I'm interested in too.
pretty much it. No modern stuff SBS/SBR.

As for AOWs, correct, no pen-gun AOWs, but also no AOWs tht violate other sections of the code. So, a VFG pistol AOW would need to make sure it did not violate the pistol AW regs that prohibit detachable-magazine semi-auto pistols with VFGs. So, fix the mag, and you've complied with the AW regs. AR and AK pistols are legal with VFG if you have a fixed mag and an approved NFA Form 1/4.

One other possible no-go for AOWs would be "camoflaging firearms containers". That may not be covered via the AOW exemption, since federally, the firearm is the AOW, not the container.
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Old 01-16-2009, 2:14 PM
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So I'll re-sumarize:
  • C&R SBRs / SBSs
  • Non-pen-gun (or also "disguised") AOWs
  • But all of these must not fall under CA's AWB
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Old 01-16-2009, 2:26 PM
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[*]Non-pen-gun (or also "disguised") AOWs
close, but you could have an umbrella gun, flashlight gun, cellphone gun, etc. Those would be disguised, but legal if papered. "Camoflaging firearms container" refers to stuff like MP5 firing briefcases, or a wallet holster that the gun can be fired while enclosed.
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Old 01-16-2009, 2:34 PM
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close, but you could have an umbrella gun, flashlight gun, cellphone gun, etc. Those would be disguised, but legal if papered.
Cool, maybe I want a flashlight gun.

Ok, my final restatement that covers the practical possibilities:
  • C&R SBRs / SBSs
  • AOWs, other than pen-guns or cases that disguise the gun
  • But all the AW rules still apply, so nothing that's in an AW configuration
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Old 01-16-2009, 2:47 PM
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Cool, maybe I want a flashlight gun.

Ok, my final restatement that covers the practical possibilities:
  • C&R SBRs / SBSs
  • AOWs, other than pen-guns or cases that disguise the gun
  • But all the AW rules still apply, so nothing that's in an AW configuration
Well I've been a lurker for a while, but I had one question...(Hopefully I'm not gonna FNG it up too much... )

Say you have an M-1 Carbine with a detachable mag that's a C&R. File a Form 1 to make a SBR. Do the AW rules still apply, specifically 12276.3 (OAL less than 30") Wouldn't that make an SBR stamp kind of useless?

Or did I miss something obvious...
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Old 01-16-2009, 3:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 1337vending View Post
Well I've been a lurker for a while,
but I had one question...(Hopefully I'm not gonna FNG it up too much... )

Say you have an M-1 Carbine with a detachable mag that's a C&R.
File a Form 1 to make a SBR. Do the AW rules still apply, specifically
12276.3 (OAL less than 30") Wouldn't that make an SBR stamp kind
of useless?
Yes, CA AW status really has no exemption for C&R. In fact, it's conspicuous by its absence: contrasting 50BMG status is exempted by being C&R in a neighboring paragraph. [Note again that 50BMGs and AWs are treated very similarly and share bulk of laws, but they are separate entities.]

[For example, if you had one of those 1898 Mauser Broomhandles modded for a detachable magazine, it's an AW.]

If you were to SBR your C&R M1 Carbine gun, it would be thru an NFA trust setup - and most likely not a CLEO signoff in CA.

Once SBR tax stamp achieved, you couldn't shorten the bbl (much? if any?) in California because it'd soon trigger the under-30"-semiauto AW definition.

However, if the SBR tax stamp were indeed achieved, perhaps you could use its SBR status when transiting it outside CA, but restore normal length bbl when in CA. (There's no constructive possession of AW in CA, unlike SBRs).

As I understand it, BATF will not SBR stamp something illegal in the state it's gonna be homed in. So they might be aware of the 30" limitation and may not want to issue SBR stamp if you wanna drive to NV to put on your shorty bbl on your C&R.

(I'd also wonder about retention of C&R status if a new shorty bbl were installed. Others more familiar w/C&R matters should speak up here.)
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Old 01-16-2009, 3:37 PM
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(I'd also wonder about retention of C&R status if a new shorty bbl were installed. Others more familiar w/C&R matters should speak up here.)
That's right, that's the big "gotcha" on building any kind of C&R SBR / SBS. If it was a SB_ in its original configuration, fine. But C&R status doesn't go with the receiver, it goes with the receiver and the parts, as assembled. I don't know what the real defining line is, but my understanding is, it's safest to keep your C&R gun using a collection of parts as close to the original as possible. Maybe you replace something that's broken and needs replacement, but it should remain as close as possible to how it was when it got its C&R status.

So, if you had a Mauser, which is a C&R, and got a SBR tax stamp for it and cut it down, I personally would not feel comfortable with it retaining its C&R status, because you've radically changed its construction and configuration. The new thing you've created certainly isn't a "relic" anymore because it no longer has much resemblance to the gun that left the factory > 50 years ago.
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Old 01-16-2009, 3:47 PM
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correct, SBR'ing doesn't look to be a popular an idea if we have to worry about the 30" rule. But, if an m1 carbine is 35.6" OAL (per wikipedia), you'd be able to take about 5" off of the barrel and be a little shorter.

As Bill mentioned, BATF won't (isn't allowed to by statute) approve a Form 1 or Form 4 that would violate state law.

As for still being C&R, the laws merely says if it is 50+ years old, it is automatically C&R. There is a ruling out from 1985 where ATF's opinion was that imported military rifles had to stay in original condition to be C&R, but that was during a time in which many of those rifles may not have been 50 years old. Another point to look at, in the C&R books, some items mention that they must be in original condition to be C&R, but those lists go back to 1968, when much of the listed items may not have been 50+ years old.

As for merely changing barrel length affecting C&R status, would changing from an 18" to a 26" barrel on a 1955 Remington 870 be a change that would affect C&R status? If not, why would just going down to 12" affect C&R status? But, in any case, BATF has been approving that exact scenario with approved Form 1s for SBSs made from C&R Remington 870s, and it would a violation of federal law for them to approve that application if it violated state law.
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  #396  
Old 01-16-2009, 3:54 PM
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As far as a SBR M1 carbine in Ca. If you really wanted to do it, it could be legal in this state if, you lengthened the stock to keep it over 30" while in the state. While this may not be pactical to use, it would be a way to keep it legally configured while in the state.
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Old 01-16-2009, 4:03 PM
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Once again, I'm impressed by the knowledge here

Unfortunately, that puts a damper on my idea of M-1 Carbine SBR paratrooper...Something like this barrel with a folding paratrooper stock. Still looks like you could do it with the normal stock, as long as you added 0.4" to the butt of the stock. 18" to 12", 6" of difference, puts you at 29.6" OAL.

Any requirement of permanence of OAL? Would a slip on buttpad work? Not that it would be advisable, being that close to a felony, but still...inquiring minds and all.

Last edited by 1337vending; 01-16-2009 at 4:05 PM.. Reason: clarification
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  #398  
Old 01-16-2009, 4:12 PM
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Well, with a folding paratrooper stock, you trigger AW status as well if you have a detachable magazine.
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Old 01-16-2009, 4:24 PM
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Well, with a folding paratrooper stock, you trigger AW status as well if you have a detachable magazine.
Yep, realized that once the OAL requirement applied. Oh well, someday hopefully we can get rid of these nonsense AW laws

Think they'd let you put a SBR on a CCW?
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Old 01-16-2009, 4:57 PM
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Think they'd let you put a SBR on a CCW?
The PC allows it. How good of a friend is your issuing authority?
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