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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 09-28-2017, 2:30 PM
rjgallardo rjgallardo is offline
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Default Cal Fire nullifying CCW law!!

I work for Cal Fire. I have a CCW in which Pen Code 171 allows me to have my weapon on state property. However, an employee policy prohibits ANY weapons on state property. I am being investigated for violating dept. policy. I will probably be fired because of the "guns are evil" mentality that dominates CA state gov't.

So if I am off duty, I can have my weapon actually ON me and ON state property and nothing will happen. I think this is new legal territory. I am retaining a lawyer to sue Cal Fire for nullifying state law and violating 18USC242 and/or 42USC1983.

For any of you who say, "just find another employer". Well you can just move to France and get on the "I give up" train.

I write this for info. only. I am sure there are other CA state employees on this forum that would be interested in how this turns out. Now that I think of it, once I retain a lawyer, I can send out the letter to whomever wants it and maybe some of you could help with the legal fees.

Last edited by rjgallardo; 09-28-2017 at 4:15 PM..
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Old 09-28-2017, 2:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rjgallardo View Post
I work for Cal Fire. I have a CCW in which Pen Code 171 allows me to have my weapon on state property. However, an employee policy prohibits ANY weapons on state property. I am being investigated for violating dept. policy. I will probably be fired because of the "guns are evil" mentality that dominates CA state gov't.

So if I am off duty, I can have my weapon actually ON me and ON state property and nothing will happen. I think this is new legal territory. I am retaining a lawyer to sue Cal Fire for nullifying state law and violating 18USC242 and/or 42USC1983.

For any of you who say, "just find another employer". Well you can just move to France and get on the "I give up" train.

I write this for info. only. I am sure there are other CA state employees on this forum that would be interested in how this turns out. Now that I think of it, once I retain a lawyer, I can send out the letter to whomever wants it and maybe some of you could help with the legal fees.

rjgallardo@hotmail.com
Maybe being public changes things but if an employer has a no weapon's policy you can be fired for violating the policy on employer property.
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Old 09-28-2017, 2:33 PM
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What's your position/rank? How'd they find out you have a gun on the property?
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Old 09-28-2017, 2:38 PM
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so I have to find out if there is CA or Fed. case law that covers this topic. Even if there is CA case law, I will pursue federal remedy for CA violating my 2A rights. I am a Fire Apparatus Engineer. One of my fellow workers is wanting to get his CCW and I have been answering questions for him. I showed him my gun one morning after I went off duty and someone "narc'ed" me out. Yes, that was a bad choice on my part but since the cat is out of the bag, I am forced to fight for a basic constitutional right. I have fought Cal Fire on other issues and won but this will be the "mother of all" fights for sure. I am always up for fighting unlawful and tyrannical behavior from gov't.
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Old 09-28-2017, 2:39 PM
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"Maybe some of you could help with the legal fees"



You knew the policy. You took your chances. Now take it up with your union. Any other state employees who have a problem with this policy should do the same, isn't that exactly what your union is for?
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Old 09-28-2017, 2:44 PM
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OP, anything you write on the internet will be used against you, please tread lightly for your sake. Good luck to you.
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Old 09-28-2017, 2:48 PM
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OP, anything you write on the internet will be used against you, please tread lightly for your sake. Good luck to you.
Best advice you'll get here.
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Old 09-28-2017, 2:49 PM
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You should delete the above comment about carrying at work. If there is a policy in place for carrying while at work you got nothing to fight with. This is common sense of having a CCW. Sounds like to me you think you have special privileges because of the permit and you found out the hard way that you do not. Good luck you may want to reconsider paying out for a lawyer and take your lumps and move on, no I am not going to france either.......
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Old 09-28-2017, 2:50 PM
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Good luck finding a new job. Whether or not it is legal for you to possess a firearm on "state" property is irrelevant. You violate a work rule, you get fired, no remedy. Your civil rights have nothing to do with it. What you do on your own time is your business (mostly); what you do on your employer's time is its business. Here's an example: you have a first amendment right of free speech. That doesn't mean you can tell the boss he's a fat head and then assert your first amendment right as a defense to getting fired. There are doctors and EMTs who have CCWs, but that doesn't mean that they won't be fired if they get caught with a gun while on duty. The employer--employee relationship is, as it used to be called in the past, a "master and servant" relationship. Which is one step removed from slavery. Even if you are not an "at will" employee who can be fired for any reason or no reason at all (except specified bad ones like whistle blowing and discrimination), violating a work rule is "good cause" for termination.
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Old 09-28-2017, 2:54 PM
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Doesn't sound like you violated any laws, but that isn't going to help you save your job unfortunately. People can get fired for any number of things, even if no laws were broken. If there was a strict no-weapons policy, and you carried a weapon, sounds like you broke policy - if you get fired, unfortunately you probably don't have much recourse.

Government employee or not, employers are perfectly allowed to "nullify state law" all they want (except with regards to employee rights laws and such, but CCW is not covered by those). State law says I'm allowed to get rip-roaring drunk on private property. Doesn't mean my employer has to allow me to do it at work.

Best bet is to sign some sort of letter that you're extremely sorry, explain why you did it, and promise that you'll never do it again - and then don't do it again. And hope for the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjgallardo View Post
So if I am off duty, I can have my weapon actually ON me and ON state property and nothing will happen.
On duty or off duty, you're still an employee. Your penal code protection only applies to criminal prosecution, not getting fired.

On the plus side, you shouldn't be facing any criminal charges, so at least there's that. But if I were in your shoes, I'd spend my money looking for new work instead of paying for a losing civil suit.

Last edited by cockedandglocked; 09-28-2017 at 3:13 PM..
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rjgallardo View Post
I work for Cal Fire. I have a CCW in which Pen Code 171 allows me to have my weapon on state property. However, an employee policy prohibits ANY weapons on state property. I am being investigated for violating dept. policy. I will probably be fired because of the "guns are evil" mentality that dominates CA state gov't.

So if I am off duty, I can have my weapon actually ON me and ON state property and nothing will happen. I think this is new legal territory. I am retaining a lawyer to sue Cal Fire for nullifying state law and violating 18USC242 and/or 42USC1983.

For any of you who say, "just find another employer". Well you can just move to France and get on the "I give up" train.

I write this for info. only. I am sure there are other CA state employees on this forum that would be interested in how this turns out. Now that I think of it, once I retain a lawyer, I can send out the letter to whomever wants it and maybe some of you could help with the legal fees.

rjgallardo@hotmail.com
Do your homework before you go off half-cocked. It'll save you a lot of grief in the end.

Exactly how did CalFire "Nullify" state law? The law allows you to possess a firearm due to your CCW. Your employer prohibits such possession as a matter of policy. Two different things. Your employer is not required to afford you your full range of legal prerogatives while at work. The law allows me to grow a beard and not bathe for days. But if show up at work in uniform, unshaven and stinking, I'm gonna get disciplined for breaking my work rules.

Is CalFire seeking to criminally prosecute you for breaking the law, or to discipline you for breaking their rules?

18USC242 provides for criminal charges against a government official who violates the civil rights of another. A private attorney can't do nothing with 18USC242. It requires the accused to be indicted and you need someone with authority to bring the matter to a federal Grand Jury for an indictment. 42USC1983 allows a private lawsuit for damages for the same, but you have to show what civil right was violated. Disciplining you for a violation of work rules is not a civil rights violation.
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:03 PM
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anything i post here is nothing that won't come out in the lawsuit. Also, being that it is public property and CA law allows any "other" CCW holder to do what I did is the exact purpose to expose the civil rights and nullification suit. You can't have the "gov't" take away civil rights. I have other defense arguments i will not put online that make my case. Remember, that ANY work rule in a public place that minimizes or deprives one of civil rights is NOT legal/lawful if it was done unilaterally and without legislative vetting. Again, I was off duty so the employer rule should not apply. Also, the "no weapons" policy does apply to private employer's property. This is a public property, and open to public access issue.
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjgallardo View Post
I work for Cal Fire. I have a CCW in which Pen Code 171 allows me to have my weapon on state property. However, an employee policy prohibits ANY weapons on state property. I am being investigated for violating dept. policy. I will probably be fired because of the "guns are evil" mentality that dominates CA state gov't.

So if I am off duty, I can have my weapon actually ON me and ON state property and nothing will happen. I think this is new legal territory. I am retaining a lawyer to sue Cal Fire for nullifying state law and violating 18USC242 and/or 42USC1983.

For any of you who say, "just find another employer". Well you can just move to France and get on the "I give up" train.

I write this for info. only. I am sure there are other CA state employees on this forum that would be interested in how this turns out. Now that I think of it, once I retain a lawyer, I can send out the letter to whomever wants it and maybe some of you could help with the legal fees.

rjgallardo@hotmail.com
CAL Fire was going to shut you down in a month anyway. Only a seasonal employee would have made this mistake. Move on, save your money from the lawyers and find a new line of work.
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:05 PM
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Misleading title...
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:07 PM
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Sounds like all of you are assuming just because a "work rule" exists that it is just, moral, ethical, and legal. That is the paradigm shift that must be made. You must remember that tyrants pass "rules" all the time. If you don't fight, then the tyranny only gets worse.
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Bullets&Whitewalls View Post
You should delete the above comment about carrying at work. If there is a policy in place for carrying while at work you got nothing to fight with. This is common sense of having a CCW. Sounds like to me you think you have special privileges because of the permit and you found out the hard way that you do not. Good luck you may want to reconsider paying out for a lawyer and take your lumps and move on, no I am not going to france either.......
THIS

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Old 09-28-2017, 3:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rjgallardo View Post
Sounds like all of you are assuming just because a "work rule" exists that it is just, moral, ethical, and legal. That is the paradigm shift that must be made. You must remember that tyrants pass "rules" all the time. If you don't fight, then the tyranny only gets worse.
You can be fired in CA for almost anything. You probably signed a contract listing things you can or can't do when you were hired.
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:30 PM
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You can't have the "gov't" take away civil rights.
You are an employee. Nobody is making you work for them. You voluntarily "surrender" certain rights when you voluntarily work for them. It's like that for every employer, this is not unique to yours. You can continue exercising those rights if you want to, legally, but they can also legally fire you for doing so. "At will employment" in California means that either party can terminate the job with or without reason.

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Remember, that ANY work rule in a public place that minimizes or deprives one of civil rights is NOT legal/lawful if it was done unilaterally and without legislative vetting.
Wrong. Your employer can fire you for doing something that is against their policy whether you're on the clock, off the clock, on the employer's property, in your house, or on Mars. Your story is no different than sending your boss an insulting, drunken voicemail from home one night, and saying he violated your free speech rights when he fired you the following monday.

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Again, I was off duty so the employer rule should not apply.
Wrong. See above.

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Originally Posted by rjgallardo View Post
I have other defense arguments i will not put online that make my case.
I sure hope so, because this one is simply not going to work. Not with any lawyer, not with any judge.

Last edited by cockedandglocked; 09-28-2017 at 3:33 PM..
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rjgallardo View Post
Sounds like all of you are assuming just because a "work rule" exists that it is just, moral, ethical, and legal. That is the paradigm shift that must be made. You must remember that tyrants pass "rules" all the time. If you don't fight, then the tyranny only gets worse.
There is actually a pretty narrow band of "rules" that cross Federal / State Law. Things like age, sex, religion etc., however weapons are not one those.
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:43 PM
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Judging from your previous comment I am gonna go out on a limb here and guess your gun was in your car while on duty. Then once you were off duty you were getting ready to leave and that's when it happened. I can tell you from experience that just about any employer that has a no firearms policy extends this policy into the lot you park your vehicle in. If you were in uniform or in thier lot you are likely SOL on any defense. But either way good luck to you.
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:43 PM
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I will advise that public agencies are aware of this forum and frequently scan for specific words including names of employees and agency names. I know this from experience.

Good luck to you.
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:44 PM
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Maybe being public changes things but if an employer has a no weapon's policy you can be fired for violating the policy on employer property.
As an internet (fake) lawyer I concur. OP broke no law, except the law of the concrete jungle: always keep the paychecks coming in.
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:45 PM
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We had a guy fired; forgot to stash his weapon in his car instead putting it in his backpack. Partner saw it and ratted him out. His fault, he knew it, but nothing he could do. Company policy and I believe it is in Title 22 with regards to EMS providers.
Maybe since it's state/public there is something you could do; maybe not. And just because something is legal does not mean employers cannot make it against policy. Weed is now legal but against company policy. I test positive (do not use) and I am fired. Now if they test for bourbon I may have a problem
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:46 PM
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Think you're SOL... sounds like you've had a few issues already that you've had to fight. They must have been relieved to fire you. Can't blame anyone but yourself for this. You knew damn well those rights were taken away when you took the job. I won't be surprise if you get your CCW revoked to be honest... should probably inform your IA now as well
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted by rjgallardo View Post
so I have to find out if there is CA or Fed. case law that covers this topic. Even if there is CA case law, I will pursue federal remedy for CA violating my 2A rights. I am a Fire Apparatus Engineer. One of my fellow workers is wanting to get his CCW and I have been answering questions for him. I showed him my gun one morning after I went off duty and someone "narc'ed" me out. Yes, that was a bad choice on my part but since the cat is out of the bag, I am forced to fight for a basic constitutional right. I have fought Cal Fire on other issues and won but this will be the "mother of all" fights for sure. I am always up for fighting unlawful and tyrannical behavior from gov't.
I'm sorry, I know it's cliche, but concealed means concealed. Don't show or tell anyone that you have it.

If he wants to see you guns, do it somewhere else, more private.
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:48 PM
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Sounds like all of you are...
When one person thinks one thing, and literally everyone else thinks the opposite, it's a good sign that maybe you should stop thinking emotionally and see if maybe your idea needs a little work

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Originally Posted by rjgallardo View Post
That is the paradigm shift that must be made. You must remember that tyrants pass "rules" all the time. If you don't fight, then the tyranny only gets worse.
You haven't been charged with a crime, you just got fired from a state job for breaking a workplace policy - I don't think the word "tyranny" means what you think it means.
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Old 09-28-2017, 3:55 PM
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funny about the weed, my union has "limits" as to how much THC can be in an employee's system. Anyways, unfortunately, most of you have NO clue as to the US Constitution because it was phased out of schools more than a generation ago. Too bad. Many today think that the Central Gov't has the power and authority to "tell" we citizens what we can and can't do. That is against the founding principals of the US. WE THE PEOPLE are supposed to be the master of the GOVERNMENT. For some of us, we will fight until the bitter end in order to fight for our individual and unalienable rights that were afforded to ALL of us by "natural born" rights, NOT rights as "given" by man nor government. Remember, if you think rights were given to you by man, they can be taken away by man. If you think rights were given you by the Creator, then NOONE can take them away. Yeah, I know very deep and profound but I think I may have sparked a little thought in at least a few of you.
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Old 09-28-2017, 4:00 PM
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I showed him my gun one morning after I went off duty and someone "narc'ed" me out.
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anything i post here is nothing that won't come out in the lawsuit.
Did the department establish that you carried while on duty? From what you write someone saw you off duty. The only reason we know you carried while on duty is because you told us so in this thread.

There is a reason why it's not a good idea to write or talk about legal proceedings.
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Old 09-28-2017, 4:00 PM
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funny about the weed, my union has "limits" as to how much THC can be in an employee's system. Anyways, unfortunately, most of you have NO clue as to the US Constitution because it was phased out of schools more than a generation ago. Too bad. Many today think that the Central Gov't has the power and authority to "tell" we citizens what we can and can't do. That is against the founding principals of the US. WE THE PEOPLE are supposed to be the master of the GOVERNMENT. For some of us, we will fight until the bitter end in order to fight for our individual and unalienable rights that were afforded to ALL of us by "natural born" rights, NOT rights as "given" by man nor government. Remember, if you think rights were given to you by man, they can be taken away by man. If you think rights were given you by the Creator, then NOONE can take them away. Yeah, I know very deep and profound but I think I may have sparked a little thought in at least a few of you.
I don't think you understand that you took a job with an employer that has policies. Your rights protect you from the government, not your employer!
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Old 09-28-2017, 4:04 PM
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funny about the weed, my union has "limits" as to how much THC can be in an employee's system. Anyways, unfortunately, most of you have NO clue as to the US Constitution because it was phased out of schools more than a generation ago. Too bad. Many today think that the Central Gov't has the power and authority to "tell" we citizens what we can and can't do. That is against the founding principals of the US. WE THE PEOPLE are supposed to be the master of the GOVERNMENT. For some of us, we will fight until the bitter end in order to fight for our individual and unalienable rights that were afforded to ALL of us by "natural born" rights, NOT rights as "given" by man nor government. Remember, if you think rights were given to you by man, they can be taken away by man. If you think rights were given you by the Creator, then NOONE can take them away. Yeah, I know very deep and profound but I think I may have sparked a little thought in at least a few of you.
It is NOT the government telling you what you can or can't do, it is your employer telling you what you can or can't do. The fact that your employer happens to be government is irrelevant. Not sure why you aren't understanding this.

I don't care if you work for Taco Bell or the CIA, employer policies are employer policies, and you can be fired for breaking them whether you're on the clock or not. Don't believe me? When you get your next job, from home while you're off the clock, send your boss an email calling him an a-hole, or ask his wife on a date, and see if you still have a job in the morning. Then see if suing him on 1st amendment grounds does you any good.

Last edited by cockedandglocked; 09-28-2017 at 4:09 PM..
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Old 09-28-2017, 4:05 PM
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Also, being that it is public property and CA law allows any "other" CCW holder to do what I did is the exact purpose to expose the civil rights and nullification suit.
This is true, but you are not being criminally prosecuted. The law that allows any other CCW holder to do what you did also allows you to do what you did. There is no question about it. It's your employer who is having issues with what you did.

(Again, remember that your employer hasn't established you DID carry ON DUTY. You are making this easy for them.)

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Originally Posted by rjgallardo View Post
You can't have the "gov't" take away civil rights.
This is also true, but we have a recent ruling in CA-9 that "carrying a concealed firearm is not a civil right covered by 2A."

It is an interesting argument and I am looking forward to seeing whether you can gain any traction.
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Old 09-28-2017, 4:06 PM
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Is CalFire seeking to criminally prosecute you for breaking the law, or to discipline you for breaking their rules?
What he said.
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Old 09-28-2017, 4:07 PM
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again I was off duty, and I work for the gov't. That has NO relevance when the Gov't is the one depriving you of rights afforded you by state law and the US Constitution. Sounds like many of you have no concept of the rule of law, and how the gov't is supposed to be the servant, NOT the master. Oh well, I tried. I will fight the fight regardless.
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Old 09-28-2017, 4:11 PM
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From your previous thread, where you "asked" your school district to re-evaluate their CCW policies by threatening to sue them before you even gave them a chance to respond, I'm just assuming at this point that you're "one of those guys" who thinks lawsuits are always the best way to get what you want. Spilled hot coffee in your lap? Sue! Lettuce in your burger too dry? Sue!
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Old 09-28-2017, 4:11 PM
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The closest I have found is this:

http://wncy.com/news/articles/2014/o...u-man-settled/

Keep in mind, the lawsuit was because the employer violated state law in this case.
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Old 09-28-2017, 4:16 PM
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As an employee of a public entity, you sign in to a separate contract than if you would as an employee of a private entity. There are employees rights and what not, but the rules are different.

You have to understand that even in law enforcement agencies where non-sworn professional employees who have gone through very similar BI's as fully sworn employees typically do not have the ability to carry while working despite being LTC holders. Many of these employees even have security clearances up to TS level, yet they are still bound to agency policy.

By all means continue to pursue what you believe in and continue to share your experience. Your situation would be an excellent case law if it goes through as intended. It may be a win to everyone else or you may end up screwing over everyone else. Who knows.
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Old 09-28-2017, 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rjgallardo View Post
again I was off duty, and I work for the gov't. That has NO relevance when the Gov't is the one depriving you of rights afforded you by state law and the US Constitution. Sounds like many of you have no concept of the rule of law, and how the gov't is supposed to be the servant, NOT the master. Oh well, I tried. I will fight the fight regardless.
Have you read any of the responses on this thread? The government is not depriving you of anything. You forced your employer to deprive you of your job because you foolishly brought your firearm where it was prohibited. Yes the parking lot of your business is still part of the business. I'm guessing by your handling of the situation you also tried to justify by saying you have a CCW? Better believe CalFire will be contacting your IA... just saying.
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Old 09-28-2017, 4:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
From your previous thread, where you "asked" your school district to re-evaluate their CCW policies by threatening to sue them before you even gave them a chance to respond, I'm just assuming at this point that you're "one of those guys" who thinks lawsuits are always the best way to get what you want. Spilled hot coffee in your lap? Sue! Lettuce in your burger too dry? Sue!
Agree! Couldn't have said it better without being blunt...
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Old 09-28-2017, 4:20 PM
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I would suggest, and I’m not a lawyer, just also work in the public sector thingy (teacher), having them to the paperwork do se do and have you sign a resignation letter. You fight this at all and you’re gonna have a terminated on your record.

I’ve seen and known of several teachers have numerous issues, some actually really criminal. I’ll leave that to your all imaginations. The district just wants to be done with it and handle it as easily and quickly and painlessly as possible.

You offer to just resign and it’ll all just go away. Your record is clean. You won’t lose money and a fight which will leave you broke and busted. Trust me in this. Make it eezy peezy for them.

If you fight it they’ll throw a lot of weight at you and you will lose. It never ends well. If they will fight it, they will know they’re right. Sounds to me they are. No weapons policy. You borked it. They don’t want to drag this out. They never do. So cut yer losses.
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Old 09-28-2017, 4:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjgallardo View Post
funny about the weed, my union has "limits" as to how much THC can be in an employee's system. Anyways, unfortunately, most of you have NO clue as to the US Constitution because it was phased out of schools more than a generation ago. Too bad. Many today think that the Central Gov't has the power and authority to "tell" we citizens what we can and can't do. That is against the founding principals of the US. WE THE PEOPLE are supposed to be the master of the GOVERNMENT. For some of us, we will fight until the bitter end in order to fight for our individual and unalienable rights that were afforded to ALL of us by "natural born" rights, NOT rights as "given" by man nor government. Remember, if you think rights were given to you by man, they can be taken away by man. If you think rights were given you by the Creator, then NOONE can take them away. Yeah, I know very deep and profound but I think I may have sparked a little thought in at least a few of you.
"Many" of us have spent careers dealing with Constitutional issues as well as dealing with employer and employee relations issues.

Bottom line is when you signed on as an employee, you acknowledged that the work rules applied to you regardless of the Constitution, and accepted that if you violated the Departments work rules you would be subject to discipline up to and including termination.

No if ands or buts about it.

Your employer does have the absolute authority to enforce the departmental rules and regulations.

They have through the collective bargaining process made agreements with your union as to the content and subject of these rules. If you didn't like the rules, and believed they infringed on your Constitutional rights you should never have accepted the position.

Don't whine now because you were caught in violation of the rules.

Your best bet is to admit your mistake and plead stupidity. The more you fight the deeper hole you dig for yourself.

Agencies have long memories, and if you EVER hope to get hired by any other Department admit your mistake and move on.

If you sue or do anything stupid potential future employers WILL find out about it, and you in all likelihood will not be ever hired. To much of a risk.

Oh, and you are an "employee" while both on and off duty, as well as anytime you are on department property. Department rules apply to you at all times.


You should acquaint your self with the Myers Milias Brown Act...Basically the "Bible" of govt. employer employee relations... It might just help you understand some basic facts related to your situation...

https://www.perb.ca.gov/laws/MMBA.aspx


More.
https://www.documents.dgs.ca.gov/OHR...rshandbook.pdf


Have you already had a "Skelly" hearing? If not you really need to study and understand what happens in a Skelly hearing.

You are entitled to due process.

The link below is from a School site, but the information is good, and you should read and understand the process.

http://members.csea.com/memberhome/o...4/Default.aspx
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Last edited by SVT-40; 10-05-2017 at 1:17 PM..
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