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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 09-18-2013, 3:20 PM
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Default US most violent? Rebuttals please!

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/09/18-1
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Old 09-18-2013, 3:30 PM
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http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/b...ence-with-ban/
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The architects of the assault weapon bans ... are simply trying to fight the Culture War. And we can't win, not in California anyway because you guys, the ones with the most to lose, refuse to do what you need to do to win the Culture Wars, which is to make Calguns and the gun rights community a truly big tent and stop driving people away simply because they are different from you.
Crime rate per 100k people
General population: 3,817
Police officers: 108
Legal CCW: 18
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Old 09-18-2013, 4:26 PM
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Bogus article that pretends deaths that aren't gun related didn't happen. A careful reading shows the headline is deliberately misleading.
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Old 09-18-2013, 5:03 PM
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Several points...

1) "Firearms related deaths"that the authors are using is a "nebulous term" chosen to cast the widest net possible. "Firearms related deaths" includes suicides by firearm. Suicides in the united states account for aprox 1/2 of all "firearms related deaths" Hardly a gauge of the dangers of firearms to total strangers or an indication of how violent a society is.

2) Also included in "firearms related deaths" are criminals shot and killed by police... aprox. 25% of "firearms related deaths".

3) A unpleasant fact: a majority of the perpetrators of firearms related murders are African Americans( read gang related). If you factor out deaths by firearms at the hands of African Americans, we are actually at the same rate as England. Less if you factor out the suicides and police shootings...

go to the FBI uniform crime statistics reports on the FBI web site and look at the data to refuite the claims of these anti's.

Last edited by Ronin2; 09-18-2013 at 5:07 PM..
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Old 09-18-2013, 5:27 PM
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Thanks. And look at the crime rate for England - more than double ours and they have a gun ban.
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  #6  
Old 09-18-2013, 5:34 PM
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FYI.. your little progressive website claims to not censor comments but I tried four times to post the same information I posted above and they all disappeared withint 60 seconds.

Here is how they justify it:

Unfortunately, sometimes legitimate comments get caught up in the auto spam filters - much like how your email spam filters sometimes send legit emails into spam folders. Putting multiple live links in a comment increases the chance it will be mistaken for spam.

We try to manually scan the spam folder and release comments that should not have been sent there but because of the vast amount of spam we often don't have the time to do this.

We do not censor comments for their political opinion. Period.

We do enforce our commenting policy and will ban commenters who abuse it.

In addition, commenters who react to the infrequent spam filter glitches by screaming "Censorship!" and spreading conspiracy theories about mass "censorship" will also be banned from commenting on the site.

Last edited by Ronin2; 09-18-2013 at 5:36 PM..
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Old 09-18-2013, 5:36 PM
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Maybe they should go Mexico for a couple months and see if that changes their minds
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Old 09-18-2013, 6:07 PM
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http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-fa...6-2-screen.pdf
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Old 09-18-2013, 6:29 PM
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http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...Crime-Violence
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Old 09-18-2013, 8:05 PM
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Do a search on the FBI and you will find rebuttal information you are seeking. by all counts we are the safest we have ever been. FBI stats back this up
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Old 09-18-2013, 8:29 PM
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Anyone who knows anything about statistics will tell you that you can "design" the information to yield whatever results you desire. It is all how you sample the data and how you label it!

This is just another in a long line of reports skewed against our freedom!
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Old 09-18-2013, 8:39 PM
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A tiny percentage of people in the U.S. make almost half the murder victims and perpetrators.
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Old 09-18-2013, 8:57 PM
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Check out gun violence in Brasil and Colombia and the Mexican Cartels aint no Boy Scouts either.
Somalis and some other African Nations and What about Syria where they gas their own people.
Yeah I can see where we are the most violent country in the world.
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  #14  
Old 09-18-2013, 9:01 PM
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There is a gun violence problem in America, but it has to be truthfully stated:

1) 2/3 are suicides
2) 1/3 is gang violence in large inner-cities
3) We have 15x the amount of guns than Britain, and 40x the amount of gun related deaths
4) The murder rate in the US is roughly three times higher than Britain

I just used Britain as an example, its like that for most 1st world countries. What the gun statistics prove to me, being a reasonable person, is that there are some problems posed by gun ownership in the USA. But is it really that bad?

Ask yourself this basic question, if there are 300 million guns in the USA and 30,000 people die a year from guns (almost ALL suicides and gang violence related) that makes for roughly .0001% of guns are used in gun related deaths.

.0001% of guns are used in gun related deaths

It might be higher than other countries, but show me a problem with any product sold that has the same rate of fatality and I'd say it was completely negligible.
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Old 09-18-2013, 9:15 PM
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We don't even make the top ten!

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Old 09-18-2013, 9:39 PM
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Here's what the UN says on Homicide rates. According to the UN, the USA is definitely on the low end of the scale. Of course, homicides are not the only violent crime...
Homicide Rates.jpg

Percent by guns.jpg

Here's the link to the report: http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/global-study-on-homicide-2011.html
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Old 09-18-2013, 10:35 PM
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Remember everyone... for the purposes of all these studies.....Homocide INCLUDES suicide.
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Old 09-19-2013, 4:44 AM
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Do these numbers include police shootings of bad guys? As my dad used to say, "Figures don't lie, but liars figure."
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Old 09-19-2013, 4:54 AM
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Also missed in most US / Europe comparisons is that we've had a higher rate of murder since our nation's inception. It isn't some new disparity due to gun control. Comparing homogenous European nations to the American melting pot is ridiculous.
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Old 09-19-2013, 9:41 AM
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Shall not be infringed....what the hell is so hard to figure out!? It seems pretty simple to me.

God damned liberals and their word-smithing pisses me the hell off. Stop splitting hairs. Idiots! I bet they would coddle the asshat that shoots them and say that the guy is a victim of gun violence. Fawktards!
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Old 09-19-2013, 9:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalBear View Post
Also missed in most US / Europe comparisons is that we've had a higher rate of murder since our nation's inception. It isn't some new disparity due to gun control. Comparing homogenous European nations to the American melting pot is ridiculous.
Absolutely correct. In fact, the rate of gun violence in England has increased dramaticlly in recent years following the implosion of the Commonwealth and all its members imigrating to England while they could for its generous social benefits (the dole). people from India, pakistan, Jamicia, Bermuda etc.. with completely different values and social morays have brought a lot more violence to England.
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Old 09-19-2013, 9:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
Do these numbers include police shootings of bad guys? As my dad used to say, "Figures don't lie, but liars figure."
Yes... Police killing suspects/criminals are included in a definition of " firearms related deaths".
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  #23  
Old 09-19-2013, 11:03 AM
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Try the peaceful jihadist way like I'll kill you if you say I am violent...

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Old 09-19-2013, 1:05 PM
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UK reported murder rates aren't even directly comparable, as the UK counts them differently:
http://rboatright.blogspot.com/2013/...der-rates.html
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Sorry about the long aside, back to murders. Remember that 657 number from the Home Office? The Coroners only called 229 of the cases they determined a cause of death on a homicide, and in 4400 cases they filed a "narrative verdict" describing the cause of death in a narrative manner without putting it in a category. If those 4400 cases are what we would normally call murders Big Edit starts here that would suggest that the correct number of "violent deaths of interest to the police" is on the order of 4700 for 2011, then the UK murder rate is 8.5 per 100,000 or about 177% of the US murder rate. Now, honestly, we don't know what conclusion as to cause the coroner would have reached if they weren't using It's entirely possible that very few of them would have been classed as homicides. We don't know. My point here isn't that the English death rates should be quoted from the highest available but rather, no matter which source I attempt to use, I can't actually get an apples to apples comparison. The data simply isn't available.

In the comments, Cam found this interesting link on the effect of narrative verdicts on mortality statistics from 2010. Cam helpfully runs the numbers to suggest that using this percentage breakdown of the narrative verdicts would increase the UK murder count by 308. So, we have the "original 657 plus the "reconstructed" coroner's number of 308 giving 965 potential homicides. This is about 200 less than I got from the cause of death numbers, but I think these numbers are for England only and don't include Wales, where the coroner's system is different.
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