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  #1  
Old 09-16-2013, 10:06 PM
Bad Caselaw Bad Caselaw is offline
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Default C&R Long Gun Interstate... Swap?

EDIT:

Transferring firearms Interstate

Interstate Firearms Sales and Transfers

UFB...




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Last edited by Bad Caselaw; 09-17-2013 at 6:30 PM..
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  #2  
Old 09-17-2013, 12:29 AM
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From how I understand california crap:

If party "B" has a rifle that is 50 + years old then Party "B" can ship to party "A".

If not, party "B" has to ship LG to party A's local FFL
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  #3  
Old 09-17-2013, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Caselaw View Post
Posit.

Party "A" has a C&R Long Gun in California.
Party "B" has a C&R long Gun in another State.

Party "A" ships his C&R long Gun to Party "B".
Party "B" ships his C&R long Gun to Party "A".

Good so far?

And then, maybe, well - they never get shipped back.
Are you talking about two parties that are not FFLs? If so then the above scenario is 100% illegal under federal law.

But if they are both C&R FFLs then party "A" can ship a C&R firearm of any age to party "B" and party "B" can ship a 50 year old C&R long gun to party "A".
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  #4  
Old 09-17-2013, 12:44 AM
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Thanks for catching that Mssr. as I assumed that both had FFL's.
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  #5  
Old 09-17-2013, 7:57 AM
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Posit

Private Party "A" has a 50 yr. old C&R Long Gun in California in need of repair.
Private Party "B" has a 50 yr. old C&R long Gun in another State in need of repair.

Private Party "A" ships his 50 yr. old C&R long Gun to Party "B" for repair.
Private Party "B" ships his 50 yr. old C&R long Gun to Party "A" for repair.

Good so far?

EDIT:

Nope. Needs an FFL on the receiving end.

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Last edited by Bad Caselaw; 09-17-2013 at 6:33 PM..
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  #6  
Old 09-17-2013, 8:15 AM
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Gunsmiths that receive firearms for repair are required to have FFLs.

Since this is evidently in the planning stage, and there are 2 people involved, it is not only a violation of the GCA, but conspiracy to do the same.

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  #7  
Old 09-17-2013, 8:26 AM
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OP, maybe you should change your username from "Bad CaseLaw" to "Bad Ideas"?
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Old 09-17-2013, 8:57 AM
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I am proceeding from a point of Constitutional Liberty, in a free America.

I am not familiar with the laws RE: C&R private citizen interactions outside of C&R FTF sales.

Gifts, Exchanges, Service/repair, or simply shipping to a different location, out of this F'ed up Soviet Province, is unknown to me.

Hence the thread.


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  #9  
Old 09-17-2013, 9:16 AM
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It has nothing to do with the laws of California, and nothing to do with C&Rs. Federal law requires a FFL for a firearms transfer across state lines. This has been true since 1968.

If the firearms are C&R, it opens another easier avenue for the transfer, for now at least, assuming both parties have 03 FFLs, see Mssr. Eleganté's comments above. This is only true through the end of the year. After Jan 1, "A" can still ship to "B", but "B" can only ship to "A" if "A" has a COE. "A" would also be able to receive the rifle in person from "B" while outside the state, but would be required to register it on return.
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  #10  
Old 09-17-2013, 9:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Caselaw View Post
I am proceeding from a point of Constitutional Liberty, in a free America.

I am not familiar with the laws RE: C&R private citizen interactions outside of C&R FTF sales.

Gifts, Exchanges, Service/repair, or simply shipping to a different location, out of this F'ed up Soviet Province, is unknown to me.

Hence the thread.

Thanks.

Caselaw

It's not state law you are dealing with in this case.
Its Federal law. C&R are not exempt from the GCA.

As Mssr. Eleganté already asked, are you talking about people with FFL03 or not?

http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-...-curios-relics

Quote:
Q: Are curio or relic firearms exempt from the provisions of the GCA?
No. Curios or relics are still firearms subject to the provisions of the GCA; however, curio or relic firearms may be transferred in interstate commerce to licensed collectors or other licensees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968
Quote:
The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA or GCA68), Pub.L. 90–618, 82 Stat. 1213, enacted October 22, 1968, is a federal law in the United States signed by President Lyndon Johnson that broadly regulates the firearms industry and firearms owners. It primarily focuses on regulating interstate commerce in firearms by generally prohibiting interstate firearms transfers except among licensed manufacturers, dealers and importers.
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Originally Posted by Flyin Brian View Post
OP, maybe you should change your username from "Bad CaseLaw" to "Bad Ideas"?
More like "BadatCaseLaw"
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  #11  
Old 09-17-2013, 9:49 AM
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Transferring firearms Interstate

Interstate Firearms Sales and Transfers

UFB...




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  #12  
Old 09-17-2013, 3:50 PM
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Do either parties have an FFL?

Sounds like you're treading in the gray area...

If you cant understand CA laws fully, I suggest both parties use an FFL.
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  #13  
Old 09-17-2013, 4:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OniKoroshi View Post
Do either parties have an FFL?

Sounds like you're treading in the gray area...

If you cant understand CA laws fully, I suggest both parties use an FFL.
You know how I know you didn't bother to actually read the thread?
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  #14  
Old 09-17-2013, 5:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Caselaw View Post
Posit

Private Party "A" has a 50 yr. old C&R Long Gun in California in need of repair.
Private Party "B" has a 50 yr. old C&R long Gun in another State in need of repair.

Private Party "A" ships his 50 yr. old C&R long Gun to Party "B" for repair.
Private Party "B" ships his 50 yr. old C&R long Gun to Party "A" for repair.

Good so far?

And then, maybe, well - they never get shipped back for non-payment, to cover the cost of the repair.


Your Thoughts.




Caselaw
This is just a REALLY bad idea.
Both need FFL license to do this trade , or just go to a FFL01 to do this.
I guess the question is how many years do you want to spend in jail and then have a felony record ?????
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  #15  
Old 09-17-2013, 9:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emcon5 View Post
You know how I know you didn't bother to actually read the thread?
I read most of it...

OP never answered some of the questions you guys asked. I simply suggested that if OP didn't fully understand what was posted by you guys, use an FFL.
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  #16  
Old 09-21-2013, 3:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emcon5 View Post
It has nothing to do with the laws of California, and nothing to do with C&Rs. Federal law requires a FFL for a firearms transfer across state lines. This has been true since 1968.

If the firearms are C&R, it opens another easier avenue for the transfer, for now at least, assuming both parties have 03 FFLs, see Mssr. Eleganté's comments above. This is only true through the end of the year. After Jan 1, "A" can still ship to "B", but "B" can only ship to "A" if "A" has a COE. "A" would also be able to receive the rifle in person from "B" while outside the state, but would be required to register it on return.
Do FFLs automatically have C&R ability or it is a separate licence for them too? If I buy a C&R rifle from an outstate FFL before the end of the year, can they ship to my C&R licence, or, if they are not separately a C&R, can they only ship to an FFL in CA?
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  #17  
Old 09-21-2013, 8:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesV View Post
Do FFLs automatically have C&R ability or it is a separate licence for them too? If I buy a C&R rifle from an outstate FFL before the end of the year, can they ship to my C&R licence, or, if they are not separately a C&R, can they only ship to an FFL in CA?
Federally, an 01 FFL can ship any non NFA firearm to a qualified FFL. A non-licensee can also legally ship any non NFA firearm to a qualified FFL, but many will not accept shipments from non FFLs as a policy.

Presently, for an out of state 01 FFL to ship a firearm to a CA 01 FFL, they need to get a CFLC approval.

An out of state 01 FFL or an individual can ship any 50+ year old C&R long gun to a CA 03 FFL, CFLC is not required. This changes Jan 1.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:02 AM
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Thank you emcon, thats clear enough. Looks like its easier to send to a 03 than a 01.
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  #19  
Old 09-23-2013, 12:05 AM
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^^^^ Yup yup, as long as you can find an FFL 01 that will ship to CA still
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Old 09-23-2013, 11:14 PM
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Yatzee! How you doing? Im trying for a trip in October, i'll let you know.

Ok, here is a letter i got today, can anyone translate and get me this milsurp gun? Whats my reply to her besides the licence?

Hello Charles,
We are FFL Dealers but I have no idea what a C&R License is. If you send me a copy of it I can call my FFL Rep and make sure with him that it is okay to ship with it. I always seem to have a lot of problems shipping anything to California because the laws there are so tricky and ridiculous.
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  #21  
Old 09-24-2013, 12:04 AM
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A C&R license is a 03FFL.

Charles do you have a 03FFL?
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Old 09-24-2013, 12:46 AM
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Yes i know and yes I have. Incredibly the outstate FFL doesnt know what the C&R is.

Im new at this but do you suppose outstate sellers dont want to ship items to CA because they simply never took the time to sort through the regulations and its easier to Just Say No?
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Last edited by CharlesV; 09-24-2013 at 12:49 AM..
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  #23  
Old 09-24-2013, 5:48 AM
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I have had to walk a couple of O1FFL's through the process with a C&R license to get stuff shipped. Send her a copy of your license and a copy of the regs for the exemption to the CFLC. If it is like my experience once she calls her ATF contact and has it explained and license verified you'll get your purchase.
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Old 09-24-2013, 6:15 AM
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Latest reply from the seller and yes i sent her my licence already and can follow up with the reg exemptions:

Charles,
One way or the other I’m sure it can be shipped to you. The SKS rifle is not 50 years old (WRONG -ed.) though so it would probably need the FFL but I will check with my agent just to see. I like learning about these things. It seems they always have a different answer depending on who you are talking to. And I did know about the C&R but never used it by it’s initials. We have only been able to ship rifles that were a lot older than 50 years with them though. Some are no brainers but only one that I’ve called on that was about 70+ years did they tell me I could ship on the C&R. But we will do what we can.
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Last edited by CharlesV; 09-24-2013 at 6:19 AM..
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Old 09-25-2013, 5:00 PM
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If the sks isn't over 50 then it has to go through a 01FFL
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Old 09-25-2013, 6:43 PM
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why is this thread still going?
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  #27  
Old 09-25-2013, 6:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OniKoroshi View Post
If the sks isn't over 50 then it has to go through a 01FFL
I know. The SKS is a 1952 Tula. The outstate seller was confused and thought we were talking about a modern AK they are also selling. They are fine about the C&R-CA transaction but will re-check all their facts before shipping. This is in a auction and i didnt want to bid if they wouldnt release it for any reason but I think we're cool now. We'll see. If still any problem I will have a local FFL receive it.
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  #28  
Old 09-25-2013, 9:36 PM
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Denis Kroh of Empire Arms has a good overview of the C&R rules for CA from the point of view of a out of state dealer that sells a lot of C&R guns.

You may want to refer them to it:

https://www.empirearms.com/cal-ffl.htm
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:16 PM
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emcon, a lot of good info there, much appreciated, will forward to the outstate seller now.
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