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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 09-09-2013, 8:12 PM
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Default Rem 700 Sandero 7mm Mag-good starter for long range?

I'm very interested in learning to shoot long range, and I really want to get nice rifle to do it. I've been doing a lot of research lately and I think I've settled on the 7mm Rem Mag cartridge.
I also recently settled on the Remington 700 Sandero SFII as my "platform."
I like the heavy barrel and the quality of the stock. I thought I was going to have to buy a base model long action and start right off with a new barrel and stock, but it seems the sandero is perfect for me because its pretty much ready to go right out of the box for a rookie like me. I know the action is stainless, and I've heard reports of galling, but I'm sure i'll learn how to avoid that.

So my questions is: have I thought this trough right? Am I missing something? I want to first learn to shoot to 1000, then eventually up to a mile! I've seen it done with the 7mm rem mag so I think its possible, and I would get a real kick out of that. I realize I have a lot to learn, I just want get started with the right equipment so I have room to grow without having to build a complete custom rifle, which might be wasted on a rookie anyway. I realize there might be cartridges better suited to shoot to a mile, but I'm interested in doing it without a super magnum. I also wanted a rifle that I could find ammo for at walmart. I'll be shooting my own loads, but I like the idea of being able to easily find something to shoot off the shelf when it suits me.

Remington 700 Sandero SFII:


And just for fun, this is a video of the sandero. I realize this is a .300 ultra mag, but I'm interested in his results with a "stock" sandero


Thanks for reading. I hope this post doesn't resemble "which long range sniper gun for maximum kill radius"
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Old 09-09-2013, 8:34 PM
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I have the .300 win mag sfii and haven't shot it yet. The guy i bought out from said he shot sub moa with it. They're supposed to be higher end. Mine feels smooth i just wish it had a threaded barrel. Randall is sure to chime in give you better advice than me. Suffice it to say i got mine for the same purpose.well 1000 yards anyway
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Old 09-09-2013, 9:13 PM
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That's a nice rifle but it wouldn't be the choice of an experienced competition shooter. It wouldn't be my choice either as I prefer organized competition to use as a measure of my ability. You want to shoot past 1000 yards, so that is past any competition distance so the normal suggestions wont work. I run out of ideas past 1000 yards as that takes some big boomer cartridges and that's not my idea of a good time. For me I'd think I'd shoot some kind of 6.5mm wildcat if I was reaching out to that far.
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Old 09-09-2013, 9:20 PM
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IDK if I'd want to shoot 7mm all day at the range. But it is def a far reaching round.
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Old 09-09-2013, 10:08 PM
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Shoot the 180gr VLDS at 1k plus. I had a few 7wsms and the just plain where hammers.
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenodnarb View Post
I'm very interested in learning to shoot long range, and I really want to get nice rifle to do it.

So my questions is: have I thought this trough right?
Am I missing something?
The recoil is going to make that gun uncomfortable to shoot enough rounds in a day to actually learn anything.

I built a 19lb 300 win mag last week.
We test fired it sunday.
After 10 rounds, I was already flinching and my groups went to hell.
Your sendero is only going to be about 14lbs fully outfitted.
It's going to recoil a lot worse than our braked 19lb rifle.

You need to be able to shoot 50 rounds in a day without getting fatigued.
Start with a 308.
When the barrel wears out, build a 6.5x284 or a 6.5SAUM.
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 09-09-2013 at 11:21 PM..
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Old 09-10-2013, 6:51 AM
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I did what the OP is considering. I purchased a 7RM Sendero specifically for long range shooting and left it completely stock. IMO the rifle is gorgeous, action extremely smooth compared to my Rem 700 SPS Varmint, trigger is decent and the rifle is very accurate easily shooting MOA or better.

Yes the 7RM can be punishing. The competitions/clinics I have participated in typically required 45-80 rounds downrange. First time out I switched to my left shoulder for the last 7 shots (out of 80). Since then I have learned that recoil can be mitigated with fitting the rifle (raising comb with cheek pad etc. ), proper positioning of body, shoot bags etc. Placing my body and rifle in a proper position went a long way in making it more comfortable. My experience-45 shots easily doable, 60 shots uncomfortable on some of last shots, 80 shots may be switching to leftie for the last few. For me the 7RM is about as heavy as I would go for my intended purpose. A 300 Win Mag might make me a little flinchie.

The last 1000 yd. shoot resulted in some good scores. I was quite happy with the performance of the rifle/scope combo. Had 1-2 X's each relay with plenty of 9 and 10's. The 6's and 7's were the result of me trying to be smarter than wind and inexperience. The rifle will have no problem hurling a Berger 180 VLD or 175 SMK with plenty of smack at the end of its 1000 yd flight. In my research the 7RM had similar flight ballistics to the 338 Lapua.

I am very happy with the rifle and really have become quite attached to it. The custom builds I see on the 1000 yd. range are works of mechanical art and are incredibly efficient at what they do. Chamberings I see on those rifles include what ar15barrels recommended in an earlier post. 6.5 and 7mm seem to a sweet spot for ballistic performance.

My experience with the Rem 700 Sendero off the shelf at $1300 shows it can run with these thoroughbreds but won't lead the pack. After I shoot the barrel out I may consider another chambering but I am enjoying and learning a lot with this 7RM rifle.
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Old 09-10-2013, 8:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrj812 View Post
The last 1000 yd. shoot resulted in some good scores. I was quite happy with the performance of the rifle/scope combo. Had 1-2 X's each relay with plenty of 9 and 10's. The 6's and 7's were the result of me trying to be smarter than wind and inexperience. The rifle will have no problem hurling a Berger 180 VLD or 175 SMK with plenty of smack at the end of its 1000 yd flight. In my research the 7RM had similar flight ballistics to the 338 Lapua.
I shoot a 243 with 107gr or 115gr bullets.
At the last desert marksman 1000yd match I attended, I shot a 199/13x out of a possible 200.
I saw the wind change just after I released that one shot that went into the 9 ring.

There is no need for heavy recoiling rounds to shoot at 1000yds.
You only need the heavy recoiling rounds when you get past 1400yds.
Then, you Look into a 300ultra shooting 230 Berger hybrids or a 338 shooting 300's.
You can get really good at 1000yds by the time you wear out a 308 barrel.
Wearing out even 2 or 3 magnum barrels is not going to gain you as much useful wind reading experience.
Don't be fooled into believing that a higher performing cartridge can actually make you a better shooter.
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 09-10-2013 at 8:50 AM..
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Old 09-10-2013, 9:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
I shoot a 243 with 107gr or 115gr bullets...
I knew there was something I liked about you!
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  #10  
Old 09-10-2013, 1:25 PM
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I read your posts as I placed my order. Maybe i'll get a cheaper 700 in .308 as well both to learn on and to hunt with. I wanted the 7mm to be able to take large game with as well. I know its heavy. I'm a bowhunter so I don't plan to hunt with the rifle. However I want a caliber that can handle anything I am likely to hunt in case I do choose to hunt with it.

I really don't plan to do competition. It is purely for casual recreation. I want to shoot steel targets or water jugs at 600-1000 yards, and have fun trying to push my range beyond that. Point taken about the heavy recoiling magnum and learning to shoot. Maybe i'll spend some more time with my 30-06 at distance before I really get going with the 7mm.

I really just wanted to make sure there wasn't some fatal flaw with the sandero, like a bad stock or crummy barrel or something.
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Old 09-10-2013, 1:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
I shoot a 243 with 107gr or 115gr bullets.
At the last desert marksman 1000yd match I attended, I shot a 199/13x out of a possible 200.
I saw the wind change just after I released that one shot that went into the 9 ring.

There is no need for heavy recoiling rounds to shoot at 1000yds.
You only need the heavy recoiling rounds when you get past 1400yds.
Then, you Look into a 300ultra shooting 230 Berger hybrids or a 338 shooting 300's.
You can get really good at 1000yds by the time you wear out a 308 barrel.
Wearing out even 2 or 3 magnum barrels is not going to gain you as much useful wind reading experience.
Don't be fooled into believing that a higher performing cartridge can actually make you a better shooter.
On the other hand, if all I want to do is hit man sized steel targets at 1000 yards with as little skill as possible then brag on calguns about how great a shot I am, that 338 sure helps!

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Old 09-10-2013, 1:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
I shoot a 243 with 107gr or 115gr bullets.
At the last desert marksman 1000yd match I attended, I shot a 199/13x out of a possible 200.
I saw the wind change just after I released that one shot that went into the 9 ring.

There is no need for heavy recoiling rounds to shoot at 1000yds.
You only need the heavy recoiling rounds when you get past 1400yds.
Then, you Look into a 300ultra shooting 230 Berger hybrids or a 338 shooting 300's.
You can get really good at 1000yds by the time you wear out a 308 barrel.
Wearing out even 2 or 3 magnum barrels is not going to gain you as much useful wind reading experience.
Don't be fooled into believing that a higher performing cartridge can actually make you a better shooter.
No argument from me on any of that. That is some good shooting by the way. Since the OP was about to do what I already did, I thought I would share my experience. I agree shooting higher performance cartridges does not make you a better shooter. It was not my intent to imply that.

My story-The Sendero was on the shelf that day and it was gorgeous and I had my first long range clinic coming up in a month, 10 days later it was home. The rest is history. I'm glad I didn't get the .300 RUM Sendero that was also on the shelf, I don't know if I could last a day with that.
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Old 09-10-2013, 1:56 PM
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If you can tolerate the recoil ...go for it,not my first choice.Given the case capacity i think you going to be rebarreling often!
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Old 09-10-2013, 2:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
I shoot a 243 with 107gr or 115gr bullets.
At the last desert marksman 1000yd match I attended, I shot a 199/13x out of a possible 200.
I saw the wind change just after I released that one shot that went into the 9 ring.

There is no need for heavy recoiling rounds to shoot at 1000yds.
You only need the heavy recoiling rounds when you get past 1400yds.
Then, you Look into a 300ultra shooting 230 Berger hybrids or a 338 shooting 300's.
You can get really good at 1000yds by the time you wear out a 308 barrel.
Wearing out even 2 or 3 magnum barrels is not going to gain you as much useful wind reading experience.
Don't be fooled into believing that a higher performing cartridge can actually make you a better shooter.

this
Randall gave me some insight on why I should start with a 308
and I took his advice

after 50 rounds of 308 I'm already getting tired, my groups would go to hell if I shoot another 50


that's with a 308 :O

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Old 09-10-2013, 2:35 PM
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personally, I find this happens to me no matter WHAT gun I shoot.

My conclusion? It's not physical fatigue or physical tiredness, it's a mental thing. mental fatigue. Maybe impatience.

More than once (but not every time) I can tell myself "patience!" and to calm down, and get the groups back inline. And that includes shooting heavy recoilers. and if I have to yell that to myself a few times and it's just no working? My time's up, time to stop shooting for the day, work on something else. My head's clearly not in it.

In short, IMO it's psychosomatic (unless you are leaving the range with a bloody shoulder?) and not physical. At least, not with me. And something that can be worked through by training.

Something a local guy here says, that I take to heart: "training takes trigger time, but 50 good rounds of training sure beats 100 rounds of bad training!"
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Old 09-10-2013, 2:50 PM
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Exactly
I know it's a mental fatigue for me, cause I have shot with only 50 rounds and did well for a rook, but when I loaded more rounds and took a total of 93 rounds, I started rushing,
Getting impatient, wasting rounds etc

50 rounds of good training trumps 100 rounds of bad training just like you said Whiterabbit (or 93 in my case)
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Old 09-10-2013, 4:33 PM
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Thenodnarb
I remember a shooter using a factory 300 Win Mag Sendero at a couple matches and doing quite well with it.
I really doubt anyone here knows of him but you could do a google search for Larry Bartholome and see if he is still shooting or there is a article about his sendero..
I don't know much about The Chief but I read an article were he used a factory Sendero in 300 Win Mag at some shooting matches of some type.
The guys here are all competition shooters but from what I hear Larry is an okay and likes the sendero.
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Old 09-10-2013, 6:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus343 View Post
Exactly
I know it's a mental fatigue for me, cause I have shot with only 50 rounds and did well for a rook, but when I loaded more rounds and took a total of 93 rounds, I started rushing,
Getting impatient, wasting rounds etc

50 rounds of good training trumps 100 rounds of bad training just like you said Whiterabbit (or 93 in my case)
Unless you're shooting a match on someone elses schedule... take your time. Let your barrel cool down between strings of fire. The barrel will last longer. You can shoot one out quick with high rates of sustained fire getting that barrel hot...

That also gives you time to sit back and relax and take a mental break. So when you get behind the rifle again, you can stay focused.
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Old 09-10-2013, 6:38 PM
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I have the Sendero in 7mm Rem. Mag... Its a budget build, in total, under $1k... It shoot 1/4 MOA at 200 yards. I haven't shot her further than that, but itching too.
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Old 09-10-2013, 6:47 PM
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You will like the cartridge. I love mine. Also, your selection of the Sendero II SF is pretty much the best factory configurations of the 700.

The cartridge is NOT cheap to shoot however. A box of Berger VLD 168 grain 7mm Rem Mag is gonna run you $3 a round. Other premium loads will be similar. For hunting, this is no big deal because you pull the trigger maybe 3x each year once the gun is sighted in.

That said however, your gun selection and a quality glass will bang steel out beyond 1000 easily. Another beauty of the cartridge is its high energy but yet 20% lower recoil than the 300 WM which is its primary competitor.

Have fun.
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Old 09-10-2013, 7:45 PM
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Let's not forget that the subject of this thread is a question: "Is a 7mm magnum a good starter rifle?"...
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Old 09-10-2013, 7:53 PM
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oh, of course 7mm RM is a good starter mag., that the weakest of my magnum rifles, why shouldn't he start 7mm R.M.?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Let's not forget that the subject of this thread is a question: "Is a 7mm magnum a good starter rifle?"...
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Old 09-10-2013, 8:02 PM
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To be clear, I'm not new to shooting, and I can handle recoil. I'm just new to long range shooting. I do practice basic rifle marksmanship skills. But I've never accounted for precise elevation and windage adjustments for things like distance, angle of fire, ambient temperature, barometric pressure, windage, coriolis, humidity etc...
I'm interested in learning how to calculate all that fun stuff for long range and extreme range shooting.
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Old 09-10-2013, 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted by thenodnarb View Post
To be clear, I'm not new to shooting, and I can handle recoil. I'm just new to long range shooting. I do practice basic rifle marksmanship skills. But I've never accounted for precise elevation and windage adjustments for things like distance, angle of fire, ambient temperature, barometric pressure, windage, coriolis, humidity etc...
I'm interested in learning how to calculate all that fun stuff for long range and extreme range shooting.
A 308 will teach you ALL of that.
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Old 09-10-2013, 8:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Let's not forget that the subject of this thread is a question: "Is a 7mm magnum a good starter rifle?"...
Absolutely, given certain conditions.

We've already established our belief that shooting well is mind over matter plus practice. Or more specifically, that with the mind not in the right place, NOTHING else matters.

The OP might not particularly care for shooting 308. Maybe there just isn't anything about 308 that tickles his fancy, or pushes his buttons. If he's not motivated to SHOOT the rifle, he wont practice!

Maybe he can get there by walking YOUR path, being more direct and fast. But given enough proper direction, if you are willing to help him walk HIS path, he'll get to the same destination. Maybe it'll take more time and lead, but ifyou are willing to help him his way, he'll be willing to listen and follow!
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Old 09-10-2013, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenodnarb View Post
To be clear, I'm not new to shooting, and I can handle recoil. I'm just new to long range shooting. I do practice basic rifle marksmanship skills. But I've never accounted for precise elevation and windage adjustments for things like distance, angle of fire, ambient temperature, barometric pressure, windage, coriolis, humidity etc...
I'm interested in learning how to calculate all that fun stuff for long range and extreme range shooting.
Math is always fun to learn, but we also have to include more determining factors. Internal, external and terminal ballistics is always hard for me to grasp along with ballistic coefficient ... another is powder burn rate at ammo temperature is also a factor. Another would be clean cold bore, along with hot or warm or cold fouled bore shooting would also need to be a consideration. I think this is just the tip of the iceberg that you and I mentioned.

Mr. Randall is correct about the .308, the 7mm is not much different at 500 yards than the .308... 8 to 10 inches I believe.

I have hi-expectations, that's why I'm still shooting at 200 yards, which i would like to perfect , before I move to further distances. I m still taking baby steps.

Just have fun with your new passion its not something you can do everyday enjoy it to the fullest when you are out shooting.
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Old 09-11-2013, 8:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Let's not forget that the subject of this thread is a question: "Is a 7mm magnum a good starter rifle?"...
And the answer to that is...No.

Quote:
I also wanted a rifle that I could find ammo for at walmart.
You won't find ammo at Walmart that is good for shooting accurately at long range. Ok fo hunting, but not real accuracy.

As Randall always says, a good starter, centerfire cartridge rifle is the .308.

If, and I do mean if, you want something other than .308 to start with I would suggest something in 6.5.

Savage makes rifles in 6.5 Creedmoor that are very good and the Hornady factory ammo is high quality.

Another choice would be a Tikka in 6.5x55. Lapua makes excellent factory match grade ammo (not particularly cheap, but very good), and there are several other makers of 6.5x55 hunting ammo.

Either of those cartridges will easily take you out to 1000 yards and accuracy out to 1200 yards is attainable with handloads.
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Old 09-14-2013, 1:29 AM
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I'm interested in learning how to calculate all that fun stuff for long range and extreme range shooting.

As not everybody is shooting Tacticool forget about the 308 winchester for 1000 yard shooting.It is a ballistic dinosaur that only gets used when the rules dictate its use.
At 1000 yards expect 35 moa drop or more with the 308 and less than 26 with the 7mm.Windage at the same distance would be not quite double that of the 7mm Remington.
At extreme ranges beyond 1000 yards the 308 winchester is equivalent to shooting elephants with a Wham-O sling shot.It remains popular with the smiper rambo tacticool types only because it is a military round.
Even the military has moved beyond it now.
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Old 09-14-2013, 8:32 AM
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If I only wanted to shoot to 1000 yards I'd have picked a different cartridge. I'm also interested in shooting way beyond that. However I don't want to step up to a .338 lapua for a multitude of reasons.
Since I will be investing a lot of time into load development and developing ballistic charts and learning how my rifle and ammunition change in different temperatures etc., I'd prefer to spend the time with the cartridge that I am really interested in.

Cartridge selection seems to be a touchy subject and I must have inadvertently asked a question that is the equivalent of mentioning religion in a public forum because everyone has taken that and run with it. I really wanted to know more about the rifle itself. Because it was either the sandero or a cheapy SPS. And the SPS has a light weight barrel and a worthless stock from what I hear, which is not appropriate for what I want to do.
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Old 09-14-2013, 9:13 AM
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If I only wanted to shoot to 1000 yards I'd have picked a different cartridge. I'm also interested in shooting way beyond that. However I don't want to step up to a .338 lapua for a multitude of reasons.
Since I will be investing a lot of time into load development and developing ballistic charts and learning how my rifle and ammunition change in different temperatures etc., I'd prefer to spend the time with the cartridge that I am really interested in.

Cartridge selection seems to be a touchy subject and I must have inadvertently asked a question that is the equivalent of mentioning religion in a public forum because everyone has taken that and run with it. I really wanted to know more about the rifle itself. Because it was either the sandero or a cheapy SPS. And the SPS has a light weight barrel and a worthless stock from what I hear, which is not appropriate for what I want to do.
If you want to shoot 1000yds and beyond without stepping into a 338 lapua, build a 30" barreled 300 ultramag and shoot the 230gr Berger hybrids.
They have the same g7 BC as a 300gr 338 bullet and you will be able to drive them faster in a 300 ultra than a 338 lapua does.
In other words, you will be shooting a less expensive and better performing setup.

Don't worry about developing ballistic charts.
Just get a ballistic app and prove/tune it to your load that shoots the best at 300yds.
After that, trust the app...
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Old 09-14-2013, 4:08 PM
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I agree with Randall on this one.

If you get a chance you can go to the JBM ballistics website and run the numbers on every cartridge ever made.The key is being realistic about the velocity.Most 338's don't push the 300 grain bullets that fast and the ones that do are not cheap to shoot and are not known for there inherent accuracy.I have several 338's and a couple wildcats in 338 as well.Most shoot under 2900 fps.My 338 Snipe-Tac will push the 300 grain Sierra match very fast but best accuracy is about 200 fps below peak velocity and that is very important when comparing chamberings.

Another thing to watch for is bullet weight versus velocity at your best accuracy.As you keep going up in bullet weight you lose velocity.The ballistic website will allow you to make comparisons based on facts not conjecture.
I have 5 rifles chambered in 6mm-06 with fast twist barrels.They will shoot the 107 Sierra matchkings at 3433 fps with best accuracy and they will shoot the Berger or DTAC 115's at 3200 fps again at best accuracy.I went with the lighter bullet at the higher velocity.
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Old 09-14-2013, 4:53 PM
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The recoil is going to make that gun uncomfortable to shoot enough rounds in a day to actually learn anything.

I built a 19lb 300 win mag last week.
We test fired it sunday.
After 10 rounds, I was already flinching and my groups went to hell.
Your sendero is only going to be about 14lbs fully outfitted.
It's going to recoil a lot worse than our braked 19lb rifle.

You need to be able to shoot 50 rounds in a day without getting fatigued.
Start with a 308.
When the barrel wears out, build a 6.5x284 or a 6.5SAUM.
Ive got a 6.5x.300winmag with a 28"tube. Shes a ***** cat. I can shoot it all day.

+1 for the 6.5
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Old 09-14-2013, 4:57 PM
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I remember randal back when he only shot 308. It's funny how much he's changed. He said nothing but 308 is worth it. Now 243 260 rifles. I also see him telling people to build 6.5saum and heavy 300win. Guess someone got the high bc bullet memo
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Old 09-14-2013, 4:59 PM
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IMHO nothing beats 243 for cost and gain. I still love 7wsm but brass and bullets cost as much as 30 cal high bc
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Old 09-14-2013, 7:28 PM
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I remember randal back when he only shot 308. It's funny how much he's changed. He said nothing but 308 is worth it. Now 243 260 rifles. I also see him telling people to build 6.5saum and heavy 300win. Guess someone got the high bc bullet memo


The original poster was looking at 1000 yards and beyond.Nothing wrong with a 308 but its not a 1000 yard and beyond cartridge.


IMHO nothing beats 243 for cost and gain. I still love 7wsm but brass and bullets cost as much as 30 cal high bc


Again I love the 243 bullet as much as anyone but the 100-108 grain bullet runs 0.540 BC and 3450 fps tops.
The 115 has a bit more BC but less velocity.
For 1000 and beyond with beyond being important high BC bullets pushed hard will make the original posters hit count go up over the same shooter with a 308 or 6mm.
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Old 09-14-2013, 8:24 PM
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The original poster was looking at 1000 yards and beyond.Nothing wrong with a 308 but its not a 1000 yard and beyond cartridge.


For 1000 and beyond with beyond being important high BC bullets pushed hard will make the original posters hit count go up over the same shooter with a 308 or 6mm.
7mm with 180gr VLDS (wsm, rem mag)
30 with 200-230gr (win mag, ultra mag)
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Old 09-14-2013, 8:40 PM
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I'm just getting into the same type of setup, and first off, its SENDERO not Sendaro. Grammar nazi here. Anyway, I just got into a 5R which in a lot of ways is the same type of setup the sendero rifles are minus the barrel fluting. I got a .308 because I wanted to start learning 600-800 yard shooting. I have loved getting into it and have a lot more fun with this rifle off a bipod and bags than I EVER did with a high end AR-15 plinker that I was getting 1/2moa with. Everything you're saying about the rifle seems to be off. Wanting to start off with a magnum, wanting to shoot a MILE! You realize how far a mile is to most shooters right. Even shooting at 1k, you're going to be getting into WAY more than the cost of the rifle with good glass, good bag setup, bipod/monopod, base, rings, skim bed the action, true bolt face, bolt knob, brake, and solid rings. I'd get a good 6mm rifle setup and call it a day, or start with a .308 like randall at AR15barrels.com is saying. I love my .308 by the way, and it was shooting .43" groups out of the box on the first 30 rounds all day with FGMM ammo.
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