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  #1  
Old 09-02-2013, 12:33 PM
Californio Californio is offline
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Default Man with a Knife Question

So an Officer in my town was forced to shoot 5 times and kill a man with a fix blade knife that closed on the officer and continued to brandish and threaten, meth anyone.

The Libs are going nuts as SOP.

My question, at one time I knew that a man with a knife could close the distance at 21' and kill the officer. What is the modern safety distance that California LE uses today, I have heard that 21' is too close and the distance has been extended.
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  #2  
Old 09-02-2013, 12:43 PM
Samuelx Samuelx is offline
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No set distance.
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  #3  
Old 09-02-2013, 12:51 PM
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TASK, LLC TASK, LLC is offline
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There is no set distance. Every incident is situation and context dependent.

To make this point clearer, sometimes it is better to make extreme examples so we can see some of the relevant points of the issues.

A 90-year old man walking with crutches is waving a knife around. He is attached to an oxygen bottle which is heavy and dragging behind him. What distance is "safe" to contact him?

A 18-year old freshman starting wide receiver on the local college football team is crouched down in a sprint starting position. He is waving a knife around. What distance is "safe" to contact him?

These two extreme examples illustrate the need to articulate each situation differently. Both are "Men with Knives." Unfortunately, most situations are categorized broadly. A man. A knife. Number of shots fired. He was a father. A son. A grandfather. While these facts may be true, they are not usually relevant to the specific incident.

The number of shots fired may not indicate anything. Where they misses? What did they strike? When was the suspect no longer a deadly threat? There are no set numbers for shots being fired either.

Engagement distances may also vary based on the training and experience of the officers, the level of perceived violence and aggression of the suspect, the available resources (cover, concealment, other officers, weapon systems available), and other factors.

You arrive at a radio call of a Man With A Knife. While enroute you learned that the man was just fired from his job and that his wife was going to divorce him. You observe him sitting on the curb, crying, while holding a knife. He is saying over and over, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry." How would you engage him?

OR

You arrive at a radio call of a Man With A Knife. While enroute you learned that the man was just fired from his job and that his wife was going to divorce him. You observe him sitting on the curb, crying, while holding a knife. You observe a large amount of blood on his clothing, but his clothing is not torn or damaged. The knife he is holding is covered in blood. You do not observe any injuries on him. He is saying over and over, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry." How would you engage him?

Bottom line, there is no set distance. It is situation dependent.
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Last edited by TASK, LLC; 09-02-2013 at 12:55 PM..
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  #4  
Old 09-02-2013, 1:06 PM
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Thank You, I was wondering if the FBI had come up with a minimum safety zone for Officers concerning knife attacks. The news is fresh and not complete, whats new. Knowing the transients in that area and the drug issues as well, I am positive the Officer did what he had to do. My liberal town invites the low life in and then complains when LE has to clean it up, go figure.
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Old 09-02-2013, 1:12 PM
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I heard it increased to 30 ft, but don't have anything in writing to back that up. Just word of mouth.
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Old 09-02-2013, 1:44 PM
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Next time I encounter a deranged suspect brandishing a knife, I will make sure that I have a tape measure so I can stop and measure the distance and comply with the "minimum safe zone" requirement prior to taking any sort of action.
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Old 09-02-2013, 2:55 PM
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Those types of statistics are VERY dangerous. As Task LLC said, every situation is different on many levels. Levels the Libs have no concept of. There are SO MANY factors a cop has to consider before firing on a guy with a deadly weapon. Getting shot at is the easiest.

Once the defense attorney gets ahold of some stat from the Feds that says 25 Feet, and the Meth Freak track star was 24 feet away when he got dumped, we lose.
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Old 09-02-2013, 2:56 PM
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....and remember, never bring a knife to a gun fight
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Old 09-02-2013, 6:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ricigliano View Post
Next time I encounter a deranged suspect brandishing a knife, I will make sure that I have a tape measure so I can stop and measure the distance and comply with the "minimum safe zone" requirement prior to taking any sort of action.
Hey Bro, don't forget to call for a supervisor to approve deployment of the tape measure and to use verbal judo to keep the suspect occupied while measuring! Also, non-departmentally approved tape measure = days off!
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Old 09-02-2013, 7:22 PM
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Remember, it takes time to draw and hit someone with a knife closing on you, I found in SIMMS training, if they are too close, I fall back on my butt (and lay back) and fire on them as they close and possibly run over, past me. The momentum on them makes it hard for them to reach down and slash me, and I stich them up as they close and pass over me.
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Old 09-02-2013, 7:27 PM
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My wife and I a few years ago were buying an ice cream at an outside order, in town and one of these meth heads went off, it happened so fast, not enough time to dial 911 and I would have lost big time, the best I could do is cower and become small, 3 female mothers, two young females and myself in line, sitting ducks. This guy wanted violence but ignored the females, we got back to the car and he tried to kick my door as I drove off, had never laid eyes on the nut, nor did I say anything.

Two weeks after I saw him attacking cars with his bicycle as they crossed the crosswalk he had taken over, I think they finally rolled him up after he damaged the cars and scared a few women trying to drive around him.

Last month 5 Officers had to subdue another violent druggy, you know 60 arrests in 10 years, used non-leathel but he died, I assume speed kills, his heart finally popped.

So I guess the answer is no distance is a safe distance and I get how fixed parameters bite you in the butt.

These nuts are dangerous period, aren't City Councils the best, that pander to these nuts.
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Last edited by Californio; 09-02-2013 at 7:31 PM..
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Old 09-02-2013, 7:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCU1670 View Post
Remember, it takes time to draw and hit someone with a knife closing on you, I found in SIMMS training, if they are too close, I fall back on my butt (and lay back) and fire on them as they close and possibly run over, past me. The momentum on them makes it hard for them to reach down and slash me, and I stich them up as they close and pass over me.
I personally wouldn't recommend that but if it works for you...
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Old 09-02-2013, 8:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCU1670 View Post
Remember, it takes time to draw and hit someone with a knife closing on you, I found in SIMMS training, if they are too close, I fall back on my butt (and lay back) and fire on them as they close and possibly run over, past me. The momentum on them makes it hard for them to reach down and slash me, and I stich them up as they close and pass over me.
I would never intentionally go to ground in a situation like that.
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  #14  
Old 09-02-2013, 9:14 PM
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Fortunately, I have never been put in the situation in real life, and I know no one wants to be on the ground, ever, but year after year, in SIMMS, I am the only person who doesn't get slashed or cut. At least give it a try in training.
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Old 09-02-2013, 9:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCU1670 View Post
Remember, it takes time to draw and hit someone with a knife closing on you, I found in SIMMS training, if they are too close, I fall back on my butt (and lay back) and fire on them as they close and possibly run over, past me. The momentum on them makes it hard for them to reach down and slash me, and I stich them up as they close and pass over me.
I would never recommend that, what would happened if you landed wrong and hit your shoulder or arm. Also on the ground you lost all your ability to defend and be mobile. You be better off running backwards and being prepared to move as needed. On the ground you just made yourself into a fix position where the suspect has access to you.

My dad when he was a cop in the 1970s shot somebody multiple times, it was determined later that the guy had died imediately but he body was so hyped up that he physically fought the officers and had to be put into handcuffs. Even though he was killed by the rounds.

Read about the story of the 45 ACP taking over for th 30 - 40 Kraig rounds, the U S Military were killing people with the 30 - 40 Kraig round but the dead person still was hyped up enough to continue on and kill the solider.

By being on the ground you may shoot the suspect, you may kill him but by being on the ground the dead guy may get many many stab wounds into you and kill you.

Going to the ground has no advantage in this situation, by contining to by standing up and being mobile if I get a crazyed idiot with a knife I can continue to move away after being stabbed on the ground you stuck.
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:26 PM
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In a training exercise a shooter and runner were positioned back-to-back. The shooter's goal was to draw from holster and fire 2 rounds into a 3-yard target after the runner patted him on the back. The runner's goal was to pat the shooter on the back and then sprint to a line 21 feet away. The runner reached his goal first every time.
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