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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #161  
Old 09-03-2013, 4:28 PM
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Generational incrimentalism is what's killing individual rights in this country. People grow up with restrictions on rights, they accept it as a normal fact of life and don't challenge the restriction. The next restriction comes, the following generation grows up accepting it as a fact of life and don't challenge the restriction.

I know gun owners who think we shouldn't be allowed to own full auto weapons, suppressors etc. They have no good reasons for their beliefs, they just think so. I've had pretty good luck changing people's mind about the issue by simply talking about the mechanism, the history of their prohibition and the practical uses for them along with plenty of talk about the value of individual rights.
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If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in, I would have done it. Senator Dianne Feinstein, CBS-TV's 60 Minutes, February 5, 1995
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  #162  
Old 09-03-2013, 4:33 PM
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Generational incrimentalism is what's killing individual rights in this country. People grow up with restrictions on rights, they accept it as a normal fact of life and don't challenge the restriction. The next restriction comes, the following generation grows up accepting it as a fact of life and don't challenge the restriction.

I know gun owners who think we shouldn't be allowed to own full auto weapons, suppressors etc. They have no good reasons for their beliefs, they just think so. I've had pretty good luck changing people's mind about the issue by simply talking about the mechanism, the history of their prohibition and the practical uses for them along with plenty of talk about the value of individual rights.
Point being, don't blame CGF, blame people who raise children to become disconnected from our country, the political process, their rights and reality in general.
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If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in, I would have done it. Senator Dianne Feinstein, CBS-TV's 60 Minutes, February 5, 1995
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  #163  
Old 09-03-2013, 5:16 PM
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Can we please stop with the logical fallacy BS? You might think pointing them out makes you an astute debater but really it just makes you look like a tool with no regard for the principle of charity.
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  #164  
Old 09-03-2013, 6:47 PM
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I just chimed in here to (once again) correct exaggerated or created from whole cloth assertions about the non-existent victories of the CGF. As usual that has evolved into personal attacks and pointless comparisons to other orgs. I'm not saying CGF can't do good. You want constructive criticism? Here: hire better lawyers, have those lawyers collaborate more with other lawyers working on these cases, and file better actions that you can actually be won(even if that means filing fewer cases or those with less fundraising appeal).

Quote:
Can we please stop with the logical fallacy BS? You might think pointing them out makes you an astute debater but really it just makes you look like a tool with no regard for the principle of charity.
You must be right because I absolutely have no idea what fallacious arguments (which should be pointed out because they do not advance any rational argument) have to do with "the principle of charity".
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  #165  
Old 09-03-2013, 10:04 PM
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Typical Alinsky style response.

You don't want to get locked into objective metrics, so you won't discuss them. It says something about a person's perspective and motivations when they refuse to define the metrics by which they are making their judgments and trying to convince others to make theirs. It's even more telling when the person has been given the opportunity to define the metrics upon which the discussion will take place.

Here's the thing, though, if we are to judge the various organizations in effectiveness, we need objective yardsticks by which to measure them. Otherwise, it's just your opinion. An opinion, which, matters about as much as a fart in the wind.
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  #166  
Old 09-03-2013, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
Typical Alinsky style response.

You don't want to get locked into objective metrics, so you won't discuss them. It says something about a person's perspective and motivations when they refuse to define the metrics by which they are making their judgments and trying to convince others to make theirs. It's even more telling when the person has been given the opportunity to define the metrics upon which the discussion will take place.

Here's the thing, though, if we are to judge the various organizations in effectiveness, we need objective yardsticks by which to measure them. Otherwise, it's just your opinion. An opinion, which, matters about as much as a fart in the wind.
At the same token, you need to provide us with the same logic in your beliefs. Something that you have failed miserably to do in all your typing.
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  #167  
Old 09-03-2013, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
You don't want to get locked into objective metrics, so you won't discuss them. It says something about a person's perspective and motivations when they refuse to define the metrics by which they are making their judgments and trying to convince others to make theirs. It's even more telling when the person has been given the opportunity to define the metrics upon which the discussion will take place.

Here's the thing, though, if we are to judge the various organizations in effectiveness, we need objective yardsticks by which to measure them.
I thought I had, repeatedly, but I will try again and state this as plainly as possible: WINS > LOSSES.


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I trust you will be reserving judgment until the allied teams nationwide split circuits and get cert , rinse lather and repeat.
There is more to this fight than the One Big Case. So no. Also, having some defective like Hokanson actually in position to argue that case is seriously bad for all of us. I really can't overstate that. If you look at the Baker brief, and follow that case, maybe you will understand what I'm saying.

There are also other doctrines besides 2A (like preemption) that are useful in firearms cases. In any event the litigation strategy needs to be slightly more complex then just "lose as much as possible while shouting about the Second Amendment and hoping to get cert on something (anything) eventually."
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  #168  
Old 09-03-2013, 10:58 PM
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  #169  
Old 09-03-2013, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Anthonysmanifesto View Post
All victories are non-existent when my rights aren't expanded at all for 40 years- time to pick up where the CATO institute and SAF left off and run with it.
I don't disagree with that.
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As far as your opinion on lawyers and work product- you and everyone else are entitled to yours.
True, but over a dozen losses and no wins for CGF is an objective fact, not an opinion. That they are losing because their work product sucks IS an opinion, albeit a slightly educated one.

Quote:
And as far as working well with others... who should CGF emulate on that?
Well not me obviously. But I'm sure there are some examples.
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  #170  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:01 PM
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Actually, I haven't failed. No one has really asked until now.

As I am not afraid of my metrics or a public discussion of them, here you go:

1 - Money given or donated to an organization must be managed properly. Spending a large amount of it on leadership salaries or travel is not proper management. I make this judgment as a % of the overall budget.

2 - I believe that the most effective money will be spent at the national level. Due to the corruption in Sacramento and leftist bend of the CA courts and the 9th Circuit, I do not believe that CA will have meaningful rights without a SCOTUS intervention.

3 - I prefer to know a bit about the people who I am entrusting my donations to.

4 - To define a win, I care only that the original pro-2A objective is achieved. I don't care if it is through settlement, a court win, or just bullying a municipality into compliance with the Constitution. The win can include getting someone acquitted of charges caused by bad law, forcing municipalities into compliance with FOIA or state pre-emption, or anything in between up to and including a SCOTUS win.

With those 4 metrics in mind, I think the two most effective organizations to donate to are the NRA or SAF. I don't know enough about SAF, so I prefer the NRA.

When CA law becomes more pertinent, I will consider CGF and possibly CRPAF. Unfortunately, CRPAF is associated with the CRPA. The tax records of CRPA preclude, for me at least, a donation to them. When individual criminal cases become more pertinent in CA, CGF is thus far the only game in town. No one else seems to be helping individuals get their guns back or get erroneous prohibitions removed. While I feel for those individuals who are being harmed by CA laws, the effective money is being spent at the national level.

So, how about you Taperxz? What are your criteria for judgment?


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At the same token, you need to provide us with the same logic in your beliefs. Something that you have failed miserably to do in all your typing.
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  #171  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:02 PM
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As far as pre-emption.. you either have it or you don't. if you have one win and then it doesn't count in city parks... then you didn't have a win i the first place.
If the same argument wins when one lawyer makes it, and loses when another makes it, I think you have to at least consider the possibility that the losing lawyer just isn't very good.
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  #172  
Old 09-04-2013, 12:08 AM
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If the same argument wins when one lawyer makes it, and loses when another makes it, I think you have to at least consider the possibility that the losing lawyer just isn't very good.
That only works if the judge(s) involved are the same.

If they're different, then all bets are off.


What, you think the judges who preside over these cases are objective? BWAHAHAHA!!!
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The real world laughs at optimism. And here's why.

I hope I end up having to donate another $1000 to CGF... However, this $500 is one I hope to not have to donate...
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  #173  
Old 09-04-2013, 11:02 AM
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And please don't tell me that it's BS, for a long time I was of that mindset and was lauded for deleting and banning those of opposing viewpoints.
And what did that do for gun rights, to have energetic gun activists attacked and banned for proposing a different direction?

As admin, you can always reinstate the accounts of the banned.
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  #174  
Old 09-04-2013, 11:05 AM
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True, but over a dozen losses and no wins for CGF is an objective fact, not an opinion. That they are losing because their work product sucks IS an opinion, albeit a slightly educated one.
Are you including the Gray Peterson debacle in that total? While not a California case, CGF was heavily involved.
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  #175  
Old 09-04-2013, 11:13 AM
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Does this mean Birdt can come back and the wiki will now include all of the carry cases in the Ninth, not just the ones Gene approves of?
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  #176  
Old 09-04-2013, 11:27 AM
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I'm pretty sure a state full of democrats is the core issue. All the money in the world isn't gonna get 2a friendly politicians if people's priorities lie elsewhere.
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  #177  
Old 09-04-2013, 11:33 AM
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I think the point is that historically this forum has attacked anyone with a contrary view and taken steps to hide the true nature of their losses and mislead on their successes. At the end of the day, we should all be freely communicating and expressing ideas.
You cant go wrong calling and emailing.
You cant go wrong voting and supporting those that share your beliefs.
You cant go wrong supporting any group, including CGF that has the best intentions and works hard for our rights.
You cant go wrong taking a newcomer out shooting, or seeking a permit and suing to enforce your rights.
The sky isnt falling and we have a long way to go. We also have a lot of cases pending in the State and Federal Courts and before the 9th Circuit.
The point being that the divisiveness needs to stop, we need a central location to share information, not edited threads that support Kestryll.
Remember, Kestryll earns a living based upon our posts and his advertisers. CGF intentionally split from CGN. But CGN remains the best forum for sharing and disseminating information to those seeking to protect our rights in this state, it just has a long way to go and lot of indoctrinated old timers who still think they fixed Sacramento, though clearly the tide has changed and many of the embarrassing public CGF defeats have come to light.
So in closing- cant we all just get along and share information and move forward to protect our rights?
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  #178  
Old 09-04-2013, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Moemoe1 View Post
I don't think we should blame calguns. We should blame the lazy gun owners that don't call, email or send letters to the people in charge of California. If we kept up the pressure or if we still keep up the pressure they will know. We shouldn't give up yet. Fight to the last fight. Only cowards give up when the light at the end of the tunnel fades. Keep fighting and don't give in.
We need to blame the corrupt politicians who always strive to take away whatever freedoms they feel are inconvenient. We need to blame our government for allowing this indoctrination into the schools such that the people now support stripping their own rights in the name of "safety". We mostly need to blame our judicial branch which has been shirking its responsibility and is now functioning as an appendage of the legislative branch, discovering unique ways to 'prove' that these laws ARE Constitutional after all.
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  #179  
Old 09-04-2013, 12:09 PM
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CGF intentionally split from CGN.
Citation please?
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  #180  
Old 09-04-2013, 12:23 PM
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Yea I'll clarify for ya. Any pink fresh hippy law school grad could take on these civil cases.

In the grand scheme of things, that's just a drop in the bucket and does not require $Millions of dollars in funds does it? I'd like to see factual data how much has been donated to CGF and if you're interested, how much was used for the so called civic cases.

Actually he has something here. The funds that are donated should be accounted for and be publicly available so we can see where all this donated funds goes to and how much for what. It plain and simple accountability.
By not providing that who knows what the money is spent on. I think this is a very fair thing to ask for and expect on a quarterly basis.
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  #181  
Old 09-04-2013, 12:25 PM
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yea man I'm also pissed I donated to stop cancer and here we are....no cure in sight!

so ripped off...
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  #182  
Old 09-04-2013, 12:34 PM
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Citation please?
I am not sure it makes sense to air any dirty laundry or that I can even give you a specific cite, it is more of an evolution. Nor is there any specific laundry to air as opposed to philosophical and financial viewpoints coupled with rumor and innuendo that don't help anyone. Gray Peterson used to lead most of the attacks in this forum, and still does on occasion, but mostly he is sitting around his apartment eating humble pie.

If you look at the history of the various factions in this state you will find times of harmony and times of strife. Look through threads here and you will find many who once thought one group could do no wrong and now villify them. Lawyers who worked for one side and then another. Pleadings attacking one group or failing to support another. We are all learning as we go and trying to get to the same place.

We now have two groups essentially- the NRA-CRPA on one side led by Chuck Michel and CGF who I think has joined forces with SAF to some extent and the only attorney I am aware of on that side is Jason Davis who is an excellent gun lawyer.

CGN is arguably the parent of CGF, but it is a business that derives profit from advertising and is owned by Kestryl who lives in los angeles, it isn't gun rights group, though it derives profit from discussion about gun rights and is arguably the genesis for what is now CGF, but there is now also a distinct separation.

I dont think CGF has an attorney trust fund, nor could it, but they do refer cases to attorneys and provide valuable information to assist us. I am not sure they have actually given any money to any attorney in this state to defend anyone, but I could be wrong.

NRA has only two carry cases, Peruta and we are waiting for a decision and Hutchens which is set for oral argument in October. I think Hutchens is a bad case that will give us bad law and was a tactical mistake, but that is just MHO.

CGF is sponsoring a few carry cases, most of which lack recent updates because they appear to be dead cases, but they have Richards which is a great case and in the same boat as Peruta awaiting a decision in about two weeks.

That really is all that is going in the legal world, unless you add in the cases Birdt has against Los Angeles, Ventura and San Bernardino, but otherwise, right now, when it comes to carry cases, NRA and CGF are running neck and neck on a result with Richards and Peruta while we wait and encourage civil activism like calling senators, voting, teaching people to shoot, applying for permits and suing if denied.

Last edited by Kestryll; 09-04-2013 at 2:06 PM..
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  #183  
Old 09-04-2013, 12:52 PM
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yea man I'm also pissed I donated to stop cancer and here we are....no cure in sight!

so ripped off...
Thanks for the smile...
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  #184  
Old 09-04-2013, 12:56 PM
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And what did that do for gun rights, to have energetic gun activists attacked and banned for proposing a different direction?

As admin, you can always reinstate the accounts of the banned.
Aside from th luls they bring, DL and his ilk do nothing for aii on ca. Having never met Kest, I have had enough interaction with him over the years to know that he is a trustworthy and highly intelligent man dedicated to the promotion of Second Amendment rights in California.

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  #185  
Old 09-04-2013, 1:07 PM
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Donations don't go to Kestryl, they go the CGF which Gene Hoffman runs.
There is no criticism of Kestryl here except for his past acts of censorship, but that was his right.
The issue is transparency in CGF donations. Where does the money go? I frankly don't care, i have seen enough good work product arising from their actions to justify the contributions they report and even with all of their stunning and embarrassing defeats I continue to cheer them on because the good far outweighs the bad, especially for a bunch of bay are computer geeks without law degrees!
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  #186  
Old 09-04-2013, 1:10 PM
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I got my CCW just recently in Sacramento, thanks to CalGuns. You are just an *******, go away little boy and bother someone who cares about your opinion.
That's not because of CalGuns. It's because of the county you live in and the "good cause" you provided.
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  #187  
Old 09-04-2013, 1:16 PM
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I still spread my donations equally among the groups in my signature. Can't put all your eggs in one basket.


TeddyBallGame, sadly I have to agree with you, which is why I had to Vote-with-my-Feet and move to the Idaho-Montana border. Only reason I keep one foot in the (Once) Great State of California is due to some family still here. Well spoken.

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this isn't even on the gun owners who DON'T send emails or write letters...the people in charge are not going to be swayed no matter how many letters you send

just think about it, would you change your stance on guns just because you received a bunch of letters? well, neither will they...unfortunately, short of storming the Capitol, we don't have many options available...we need to get the right people seated, who are willing to go to bat for us, and, protect our Constitution...we don't have that right now Moe, we have vile, unconscionable people sitting, whose only agenda is to weaken the people

I don't agree with the OP either, it's not the fault of lawyers that it takes literally years to unravel the damage these new laws create, plus, I've lost faith in our judicial system, they seem to lack the backbone to correctly rule on cases, forcing it into even more time delayed, up the ladder appeals

our adversary has a great advantage over us...they can push these Bills into laws, in a relatively short period of time, then, sit and wait while it takes years to be heard by the courts...it's almost strategic on their part, and, its working



great quote from Benjamin Franklin:


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Originally Posted by RoyBatty View Post
If we don't hang together, we shall most certainly hang alone....





This:

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Originally Posted by RRangel View Post
You're under the assumption that the poster of such diatribe really cares about the Second Amendment. When he's really here to agitate.






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Originally Posted by Capybara View Post
Wild Squid = Adam Keigwin. Now that he no longer works for Yee, this is his full time hobby.


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  #188  
Old 09-04-2013, 1:18 PM
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Does this mean Birdt can come back and the wiki will now include all of the carry cases in the Ninth, not just the ones Gene approves of?
Other than the parts he wrote, Gene has no influence on what goes into the wiki.

If you will write up an article on such a case and send it to me, using something similar to the current format, I'll likely add it.
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  #189  
Old 09-04-2013, 1:19 PM
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I got my CCW just recently in Sacramento, thanks to CalGuns. You are just an *******, go away little boy and bother someone who cares about your opinion.
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Originally Posted by MolonLabe2008 View Post
That's not because of CalGuns. It's because of the county you live in and the "good cause" you provided.
Actually the only people to thank when it comes to Sacramento County, are the people who voted in the current Sheriff and accepting his views for the county.

A new Sheriff could change the entire game if they are not pro carry since NOTHING in any court or agreement can make a new sheriff continue to issue CCW's.
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  #190  
Old 09-04-2013, 1:23 PM
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Librarian- you can find a good starting point here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...rent+ltc+cases

I would be happy to assist with any additional detail you might need. I think this should be one of our main resources and encourage Jason Davis and Chuck Michel to contribute to keeping the list updated and all of us informed.

You can also email Birdt at jon@jonbirdt.com and he will send you updates or documents on any of his cases.
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  #191  
Old 09-04-2013, 1:28 PM
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Originally Posted by flyonwall View Post
Librarian- you can find a good starting point here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...rent+ltc+cases

I would be happy to assist with any additional detail you might need. I think this should be one of our main resources and encourage Jason Davis and Chuck Michel to contribute to keeping the list updated and all of us informed.

You can also email ME at jon@jonbirdt.com and I will send you updates or documents on any of MY cases.
Fixed it for ya!
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  #192  
Old 09-04-2013, 1:33 PM
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Fixed it for ya!
Thanks Gray, keep up the good work!
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  #193  
Old 09-04-2013, 1:34 PM
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Thanks Gray, keep up the good work!
LOL!!
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  #194  
Old 09-04-2013, 1:54 PM
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Does this mean Birdt can come back
No.

Birdt was not banned because his case or position was 'disliked', he was banned because when people posted criticisms he became rude and insulting and would attack anyone who didn't agree with him.

He wasn't banned because of affiliation, he was banned because he was a dick.
And frankly there are only two dicks allowed on CGN, ivanimal and me.
Ivan very rarely exercises his prerogative however.
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  #195  
Old 09-04-2013, 2:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
No.

Birdt was not banned because his case or position was 'disliked', he was banned because when people posted criticisms he became rude and insulting and would attack anyone who didn't agree with him.

He wasn't banned because of affiliation, he was banned because he was a dick.
And frankly there are only two dicks allowed on CGN, ivanimal and me.
Ivan very rarely exercises his prerogative however.
Now thats what i call "political correctness"^^^
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  #196  
Old 09-04-2013, 2:42 PM
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Kestryll,
You have a wonderful and fanciful revisionist view of history but at least we agree you are a dick. Personally, I watched this group tear him to shreds and he defended himself from a rabid pack of computer engineers, but you got to edit that history and those attacks. Ironically, the lead attack dog was Gray who is now the face of failure.
Chuck
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  #197  
Old 09-04-2013, 2:51 PM
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.
Although it is the duty of forum moderators to act in a neutral manner, if they're also not "dicks" to some people then they might not be doing a good job of moderating.

Now, the real question might be, is Kestryll a megalomaniac? I haven't been here long enough to know one way or another, but I doubt that he merits that particular distinction (like some I have known elsewhere; where from their paranoia and their feeling of "power" they abuse their position).

As for the OP, he might have had a legitimate point but he ultimately fails due mostly to his delivery.

*lol*
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  #198  
Old 09-04-2013, 2:57 PM
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My 15 year old daughter comes home with less drama than this...seriously.
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  #199  
Old 09-04-2013, 3:00 PM
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Originally Posted by flyonwall View Post
Kestryll,
You have a wonderful and fanciful revisionist view of history but at least we agree you are a dick. Personally, I watched this group tear him to shreds and he defended himself from a rabid pack of computer engineers, but you got to edit that history and those attacks. Ironically, the lead attack dog was Gray who is now the face of failure.
Chuck
Your understanding of self-deprecating humor is deeply flawed.
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  #200  
Old 09-04-2013, 3:07 PM
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.Now, the real question might be, is Kestryll a megalomaniac?
Oh definitely, one day I want to take over the world and remake it in my vision.

Unfortunately I'm also cripplingly lazy and world domination sounds like an awful lot of work and my couch is so comfy...
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